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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Soloing is ruining MMOs today,

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  Ozarumon

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/09
Posts: 107

 
OP  7/22/09 5:52:43 PM#1

So I heard from a couple people that post here on their ideas of soloing I heard that people who raid should not be allowed gear that gives them huge benefits over those who solo I also hear a lot that there should be solo dungeons where people go through dungeons solo and get loot on par to those who go in group dungeons.

 

Why? Soloing is easy, if it was hard you would need more than one person. and if everything can be soloed and not grouped what does that say for classes that have it harder to solo than those who dont IE pet classes vs healing classes. Should people who play pet classes be allowed to plow through content and get gear easier and faster than those who have harder jobs/classes?

 

Why do people like soloing in a mmorpg? You plow through content no matter how slow you take it, its still fast when soloing, you solo and beat all the content then what? You want for a new patch to come a long when can take months for more content. Soloing is what is killing mmorpgs now a days.

Even single player RPGS do not have soloing, you are always grouped with other characters or NPCs. Any so called solo rpg IE legend of zelda is classified as an adeventure game or hack and slash or dungeon crawler not a RPG. Companys today are trying their hardest to balance soloing and group play that it will always hurt group play. The easier you make solo the less people want to group, the less content there will be to group. Lets take WoW for example after you solo all the way to 80 there are what 7 small man dungeons and 4 raids, before content patch there were three PVE raids.

 

Now take those numbers and what % of the content is that? Especially for raiders they have to see the same four raids over and over and over again just to get loot. Solo players have many different sites and quest to go by alone. The instances now a days even for any new mmorpg are just that fast instansted content, group  play does not even have options we are told to go here if we want to group.

 

Yes we can group in solo content but why? we are hit hard for exp if we invite some one, the quest are longer, not kill quest but definately loot quest are much longer. It is much more of a pain in the ass to group than to solo in the solo aspect of the game. and even if we did group it just makes the game 100x more easier than it already is, grouping is supposed to be a challenge, overcoming challenges with others not plow through content asap.

Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No

  User Deleted
7/22/09 5:56:22 PM#2
Originally posted by Ozarumon

So I heard from a couple people that post here on their ideas of soloing I heard that people who raid should not be allowed gear that gives them huge benefits over those who solo I also hear a lot that there should be solo dungeons where people go through dungeons solo and get loot on par to those who go in group dungeons.

 

Poor attempt at spinning the stance,  but grats on a new thread! We hadn't enough of these.

  kb4blu

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/10/03
Posts: 635

7/22/09 5:57:16 PM#3

I agree with you 100%.  You do realize you are going to be flamed for expressing an a view that seems to be in the minority today. 

But anyway I am with you on this.

LFG :)

 

  Ozarumon

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/09
Posts: 107

 
OP  7/22/09 5:57:38 PM#4
Originally posted by LynxJSA
Originally posted by Ozarumon

So I heard from a couple people that post here on their ideas of soloing I heard that people who raid should not be allowed gear that gives them huge benefits over those who solo I also hear a lot that there should be solo dungeons where people go through dungeons solo and get loot on par to those who go in group dungeons.

 

Poor attempt at spinning the stance,  but grats on a new thread! We hadn't enough of these.

 

Its got to be said, and there is no spinning going on here, this is out of the mouth of players who like soloing

  Marcus-

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 967

7/22/09 6:11:38 PM#5
Originally posted by Ozarumon

 

Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No


 

Back when I started playing MMOs (UO/NWN/Meridian) soloing was the main aspect. So this isn't some sort of new and freakish time in MMO history.

 

Why do they make it more solo friendly?  Because there are more people who like to solo than group (raid?), which gives the people who make the game more subscriptions, which in turn gives them more money. When those that group (raid?) are more prevelant than those that like to solo.... well.... I bet you know where this is going...

 

Its all about the money, not what you personally would like in an MMO, unfortunetly.

I have a different view on what MMOs should be like than you, but we are in the same boat... once again,  unfortunetly.

  bonobotheory

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 1022

Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.

7/22/09 6:18:41 PM#6

Since you didn't say how soloing is ruining MMOs, I can't comment on your post. Instead, I'll throw out some unsupported accusations of my own.

Poodles are destroying the ozone layer.

Hello Kitty causes cancer.

The color blue is cutting down all the rainforrests.

  Ozarumon

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/09
Posts: 107

 
OP  7/22/09 6:21:46 PM#7
Originally posted by Marcus-
Originally posted by Ozarumon

 

Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No


 

Back when I started playing MMOs (UO/NWN/Meridian) soloing was the main aspect. So this isn't some sort of new and freakish time in MMO history.

 

Why do they make it more solo friendly?  Because there are more people who like to solo than group (raid?), which gives the people who make the game more subscriptions, which in turn gives them more money. When those that group (raid?) are more prevelant than those that like to solo.... well.... I bet you know where this is going...

 

Its all about the money, not what you personally would like in an MMO, unfortunetly.

I have a different view on what MMOs should be like than you, but we are in the same boat... once again,  unfortunetly.

I never played NWN or meridian wasnt NWN text based? But any way UO was more group based than solo, and it was a PVP mmo by the way with gankers etc it was much much safer to be with more people raising skills and fighting monsters than it was to be a lone, they catered to the solo player by adding trammle then look what happened.

  User Deleted
7/22/09 6:22:26 PM#8

From what ive seen most games offer both solo and group content. Solo players do not get the "epic"gear as a rule but they get good enough rewards to continue their solo play.  I think most people who solo a lot, and yes ive been known to solo, group with people they enjoy grouping with but do not want to be forced to group as most PUG;s are a crap shoot and its been my experience the hard core raid boys take themselves more seriously than i do. I find a "casual" guild populated with people i like. I think what the OP wants is forced grouping which is fine but not the type of game i want to play.

  Anubisan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/09/05
Posts: 1822

7/22/09 6:25:33 PM#9
Originally posted by Ozarumon

So I heard from a couple people that post here on their ideas of soloing I heard that people who raid should not be allowed gear that gives them huge benefits over those who solo I also hear a lot that there should be solo dungeons where people go through dungeons solo and get loot on par to those who go in group dungeons.

I don't see anything wrong with this as long as it is done right. The major problem with solo content in MMORPGs today is that everything is so friggin' easy. There is never any sort of challenge. If developers took the time to make some solo content EXTREMELY hard (but achievable), I see no reason why solo players should not be able to attain awesome gear. The one good example of this I can think of is the Hunter quest for Rhok'delar Longbow of the Ancient Keepers in WoW. This was hands down the hardest solo quest I have ever attempted in an MMO and I definitely felt that I deserved that bow when I had completed it. I didn't have the greatest gear when I began the quest and it took me several weeks before I finally defeated all of the demons. I have often wondered why there aren't more solo quests like that...
 

Why? Soloing is easy, if it was hard you would need more than one person. and if everything can be soloed and not grouped what does that say for classes that have it harder to solo than those who dont IE pet classes vs healing classes. Should people who play pet classes be allowed to plow through content and get gear easier and faster than those who have harder jobs/classes?

Again, if quests are made appropriately difficult and tailored to your class, I don't see how this is a problem. If its hard enough, you won't plow through it any more quickly than would people doing raid content.

 

Why do people like soloing in a mmorpg? You plow through content no matter how slow you take it, its still fast when soloing, you solo and beat all the content then what? You want for a new patch to come a long when can take months for more content. Soloing is what is killing mmorpgs now a days.

People like soloing in MMORPGs because a lot of people do not have time to adhere to raiding schedules.  Some of these people only have 1 or 2 hours to dedicate per night and that is just simply not enough time to organize and complete raids. Yet, those same people don't feel that they should be forever condemned to weakness simply because real life is more important. There has to be some sort of compromise...

 

I completely agree with you that EASY solo content should not provide rewards comparable to raid gear, but game developers could be adding very difficult solo content. No one is really doing that at this point and I think it could be an acceptable compromise. It is also a lot of fun to actually have to work hard for something like that.

Raiding isn't always hard itself... when I used to raid a lot, I felt that most of the difficulty came in the form of requiring patience because it took so damned long to get anything done. When everyone was actually assembled and paying attention, bosses would often go down pretty fast.

  Marcus-

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 967

7/22/09 6:28:14 PM#10
Originally posted by Ozarumon
Originally posted by Marcus-
Originally posted by Ozarumon

 

Should there be some soloing in games, yes there should be, should soloing be the main aspect of mmorpgs like it is today? No


 

Back when I started playing MMOs (UO/NWN/Meridian) soloing was the main aspect. So this isn't some sort of new and freakish time in MMO history.

 

Why do they make it more solo friendly?  Because there are more people who like to solo than group (raid?), which gives the people who make the game more subscriptions, which in turn gives them more money. When those that group (raid?) are more prevelant than those that like to solo.... well.... I bet you know where this is going...

 

Its all about the money, not what you personally would like in an MMO, unfortunetly.

I have a different view on what MMOs should be like than you, but we are in the same boat... once again,  unfortunetly.

I never played NWN or meridian wasnt NWN text based? But any way UO was more group based than solo, and it was a PVP mmo by the way with gankers etc it was much much safer to be with more people raising skills and fighting monsters than it was to be a lone, they catered to the solo player by adding trammle then look what happened.


 

No, NwN wasnt text based, though it was turn based.

UO was more group based if you chose to do it that way, but there was almost no aspect of the game you couldn't participate in because you didn't have a group ( I can't think of any, but im sure someone will). Dungeons were wide open, you could go in, and take your chances, perhaps a bunch of folks were in the bottom killing of mobs, and you could just sort of join in, or use each other as back up if things got hairy. Or, perhaps, they would kill you.

Regardless, you could there, and participate, solo.

  Neosai

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/06
Posts: 403

7/22/09 6:28:21 PM#11

Your opinion on this topic is extremely biased and without rational thinking.

Solo is a choice some players make, they play the game by being independent and this define who they are in game.  As a MMORPG, the RPG element is to play a role as the player wishes.  Whether it is grouped or not is moot point, this is a game, it doesn't take more than 1 person to play, it just takes more than 1 person to keep the server running.

The idea is doesn't matter if someone solo or choose to group, no one else should have a say in whether it is "right" or "wrong".

No, solo does not ruin MMORPG today.  It is people discriminate each other's play style that is ruining the MMORPG community.  Most people that argue about these topic with an extremist attitude are in fact not trying to disscus anything other than feeding the egotistical of being the "correct" one.  However, anyone with half a brain can see that there are no right or wrong here, just bunch of opinions and passive aggressive attempt at suppressing freedom of choice of others.

If someone have a valid and objective opinion on the subject, I will give them the respect they deserve.  The OP's post is not one of these cases.  Good day.

  Ozarumon

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/09
Posts: 107

 
OP  7/22/09 6:30:44 PM#12
Originally posted by Neosai

Your opinion on this topic is extremely biased and without rational thinking.

Solo is a choice some players make, they play the game by being independent and this define who they are in game.  As a MMORPG, the RPG element is to play a role as the player wishes.  Whether it is grouped or not is moot point, this is a game, it doesn't take more than 1 person to play, it just takes more than 1 person to keep the server running.

The idea is doesn't matter if someone solo or choose to group, no one else should have a say in whether it is "right" or "wrong".

No, solo does not ruin MMORPG today.  It is people discriminate each other's play style that is ruining the MMORPG community.  Most people that argue about these topic with an extremist attitude are in fact not trying to disscus anything other than feeding the egotistical of being the "correct" one.  However, anyone with half a brain can see that there are no right or wrong here, just bunch of opinions and passive aggressive attempt at suppressing freedom of choice of others.

If someone have a valid and objective opinion on the subject, I will give them the respect they deserve.  The OP's post is not one of these cases.  Good day.

Thats right because if I bash soloing then thats biased, you cant balance soloing and grouping, it cant be done, you make a game soloable no one wants to group until the very end where there is raid content and small dungeons. I have yet played solo in a mmorpg where it was considered hard. Again UO was a PVP mmorpg, it did not really revolve around PVE

  Artursl

Novice Member

Joined: 12/11/05
Posts: 24

7/22/09 6:35:30 PM#13

What's with all the solo vs group bullshit recently?

It's fucking retarded to exclude or minimize one of the above from a game. There are hardcore people that like group content and have time to do it and on the other hand we have people that have maybe an hour or two a day to dedicate to an MMO so ofcourse they prefer soloing instead of wasting 30 minutes just looking for a group if solo content was down to a minimum in a game they play. So focusing on just one of those aspects and giving no or little attention to the other is fucking stupid and will leave a big part of players out. (There are exceptions like EVE, when it's all about corporations, but I'm talking about your average MMO)

  Marcus-

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 967

7/22/09 6:36:27 PM#14

Most people play MMOs because they are fun, not hard.. ( i would think)

 

Perhaps the title of the post should read, Soloing is ruining todays MMOs, for me...

  Neosai

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/06
Posts: 403

7/22/09 6:38:57 PM#15
Originally posted by Ozarumon
Originally posted by Neosai

Your opinion on this topic is extremely biased and without rational thinking.

Solo is a choice some players make, they play the game by being independent and this define who they are in game.  As a MMORPG, the RPG element is to play a role as the player wishes.  Whether it is grouped or not is moot point, this is a game, it doesn't take more than 1 person to play, it just takes more than 1 person to keep the server running.

The idea is doesn't matter if someone solo or choose to group, no one else should have a say in whether it is "right" or "wrong".

No, solo does not ruin MMORPG today.  It is people discriminate each other's play style that is ruining the MMORPG community.  Most people that argue about these topic with an extremist attitude are in fact not trying to disscus anything other than feeding the egotistical of being the "correct" one.  However, anyone with half a brain can see that there are no right or wrong here, just bunch of opinions and passive aggressive attempt at suppressing freedom of choice of others.

If someone have a valid and objective opinion on the subject, I will give them the respect they deserve.  The OP's post is not one of these cases.  Good day.

Thats right because if I bash soloing then thats biased, you cant balance soloing and grouping, it cant be done, you make a game soloable no one wants to group until the very end where there is raid content and small dungeons. I have yet played solo in a mmorpg where it was considered hard. Again UO was a PVP mmorpg, it did not really revolve around PVE

Read my whole reply before you speak.  If you read through the whole thing I was talking to both people that bash grouping and bash solo.  Either opinion that bash other opinions are considered biased, especially when there are no logic behind it.  I am sorry "feeling" just don't count as a valid argument in my world.

Yes you can balance soloing and grouping because it is a prefrence.  There are no such thing as a standard measurement what is balanced solo vs group.  Each person have different preferences and opinions, but apparently you don't respect other's opinions nor are you willing to even listen.  If a game design alot of solo content, of course people solo more duh.  The opposite is true when it come to grouping.

Come back to talk to me when you have opened your mind and used your brain.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

7/22/09 6:42:25 PM#16
Originally posted by Ozarumon
Originally posted by Neosai

Your opinion on this topic is extremely biased and without rational thinking.

Solo is a choice some players make, they play the game by being independent and this define who they are in game.  As a MMORPG, the RPG element is to play a role as the player wishes.  Whether it is grouped or not is moot point, this is a game, it doesn't take more than 1 person to play, it just takes more than 1 person to keep the server running.

The idea is doesn't matter if someone solo or choose to group, no one else should have a say in whether it is "right" or "wrong".

No, solo does not ruin MMORPG today.  It is people discriminate each other's play style that is ruining the MMORPG community.  Most people that argue about these topic with an extremist attitude are in fact not trying to disscus anything other than feeding the egotistical of being the "correct" one.  However, anyone with half a brain can see that there are no right or wrong here, just bunch of opinions and passive aggressive attempt at suppressing freedom of choice of others.

If someone have a valid and objective opinion on the subject, I will give them the respect they deserve.  The OP's post is not one of these cases.  Good day.

Thats right because if I bash soloing then thats biased, you cant balance soloing and grouping, it cant be done, you make a game soloable no one wants to group until the very end where there is raid content and small dungeons. I have yet played solo in a mmorpg where it was considered hard. Again UO was a PVP mmorpg, it did not really revolve around PVE

You obviously never played UO. BTW, you could've posted this in one of the other 17 group vs solo threads. Instead you chose to clutter the forum with yet another unsubstantiated opinion.

Yes, opinion because that is exactly what it is. Since WoW, the most solo friendly MMO out there, has more subscribers than all other MMOs combined, I don't see how solo is ruining MMOs. If anything it's making MMOs successful.

  Asmiroth20

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 360

7/22/09 6:46:02 PM#17

    Seriously, solo'ing is not ruining MMO's.  Games should not be made for solo'ers or groupers, they should be made for GAMERS.  There shouldn't even be different parties here, just a group of guys and gals sharing a hobby in the entertainment platform known as gaming.

  User Deleted
7/22/09 6:46:17 PM#18
Originally posted by Ozarumon

I never played NWN or meridian wasnt NWN text based? But any way UO was more group based than solo, and it was a PVP mmo by the way with gankers etc it was much much safer to be with more people raising skills and fighting monsters than it was to be a lone, they catered to the solo player by adding trammle then look what happened.

 

I was wondering what kind of idiot you are and now I see.  UO could be soloed from beginning to end if you were good enough and smart enough.  Death could and would happen but that only made you better.  There was no you can't do this without a group.  UO made players think, not just you tank, you heal, and you dps.  UO was not loot based so a solo person could get a 7x gm just as easily as a grouper and be pretty much equal in strength.  A solo person could also kill higher end mob and with luck get some of the best drops in game.  A solo person could also dig up maps or fish up sos bottles for some of the best loot in game.  A solo person could gm crafting skills and be able to crafted the most widely used gear in game.  UO is a game not a pvp game TF2 is a pvp game.  Could you QQ some more about trammel?  Yeah look at what happened the game is still around after a decade.

  Tedly224

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/09
Posts: 163

7/22/09 6:47:51 PM#19

Your original post was a bit of a rant, but I have to agree with you. I think the real problem with grouping in popular MMORPG's lay at the feet of the Devs who create the game while lacking a clear concise list of reasons for people to group, and the benefits they get from it.

 

As for solo game play, I think it's a necessary part of any MMO made these days to accomodate the casual player that comes home from work, has only a couple of hours to kill due to school work / social responsibilities, and wouldn't play the game otherwise (and wouldn't pay the monthly fee) if they couldn't get anything meaningful done in those spare 2 hours. If I were a game publisher, I'd be shooting myself in the foot by telling those players they'd get nothing done in my product.

 

That said, I see 3 clear and glaring issues that Devs have consistantly missed in most of the successful MMORPG's to date revolving around grouping.

 

1) Lower level - mid level dungeons. If people are going to outgrow the loot rewards rapidly and can replace worn items with crafted gear or quest related gear in a short amount of time, then what's the point of bothering with grouping for those dungeons? Everquest initially demanded that people obtain strange monster drops that could ONLY be found in the depths of dungeons for quests that would combine them into class specific armor rewards. While a player could get by and level up for a long time using just drop items or crafted items, if you wanted to take the initial step into raiding you had to go visit some places (or pay people who had the items, which was usually overpriced). Warcraft and other games got away from this idea and now they have dungeons no one cares about.

2) Instead of split shared experience hitting a lower ratio when one or more people group together to do overland monster kill grinding, it should go UP significantly to MAKE players want to seek out pickup groups for afternoons of mindless leveling. A person with only a couple of hours to solo should be able to make some strides in leveling, but the game rules should be in place so that if that person had more time to kill to commit with a group, that it would be by far in their best interest to do it. Again, Warcraft and certain other successful games got away from this too. Dark Age of Camelot was the last game I played where players were put into this situation and oh snap! Players didn't treat each other like jerks and CARED about their in game reputations.

3) A Catch-all purpose of doing group questing as opposed to solo questing would be a "wouldn't it be cool?" idea of lower level and mid level quests granting rewards might later require those rewards for "upgrades" through higher level group quests, or the lower to mid level quests might be required to open up new quests that would allow for very desirable rewards in higher level dungeons. Players should be encouraged through ALL levels of a game to discover that the "best stuff" is gained from group effort, and that the rules of the game setting that up start off early in character careers.

 

Those are just my thoughts. The bottom line is that if a game launches without a clear vision of why people should be grouping weighed against what can be gained from solo play, it's asking for trouble. And that game vision should be made clear to the players through early level content and followed through to the endgame.

 

  User Deleted
7/22/09 6:51:44 PM#20

First off, "balance" in any MMO is a dream. It will never happen and has never happened. Even in games where the skills in PVP mirror each other (like WAR) balance is still an issue. Why? Human nature. Someone wants to be the best and they will find every possible way to make themselves better and no amount of work by the devs can ensure balance. It doesn't matter if its solo, group, raids, etc..... balance will always be an issue.

Add to that, there are fundamental problems with balance. How do you balance ranged and melee for example? How do you balance magic and gadgets or magic and blades?

So trying to equate balance with soloing is just ignoring the root of the problem.

And in no way is solo'ing ruining MMO's. As a matter of fact, with the growth in the market and that, most MMO's cater to the solo'er in one way or another, soloing has helped make MMO's more profitable and accessible today/

Soloing is only ruining MMO's for the 5% of hardcore players who spend their lives on a  forum telling other how to play and what a true MMO is or isn't. The other 95% are happily playing and could care less.

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