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News & Features Discussion  » General: Garrett Fuller: Do You PvP?

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  Dana

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/04
Posts: 2425

 
OP  7/22/09 3:22:17 PM#1

In this week's column, Garrett looks at PvP. Why do people do it? What forms are out there? Do you do it? Check out his full PvP column:

The open war form of PvP is likely the most common in MMOs. EVE Online has giant space battles between massive corporations filled with total destruction. With groups like GoonSquad gearing up to wreak havoc on the galaxy and any opponent’s who get in their way. Where is the fun in open war PvP for the average player? For some being on the winning team is important. Others like the feel of an epic battle in space and watch in awe as the giant ships clash. The same holds true for large battles in fantasy worlds like the early days of Warcraft when Tarren Mill was filled with players fighting back and forth. There were no victory points or conditions; there was a street fight plain and simple. Some players like the mentality of being in the think of a fight. The action of an epic battle is what drives players to PvP.

Read more here.

Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios

  DevilXaphan

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/06
Posts: 1153

Bringing teal to your lives since 1998.

7/22/09 3:29:04 PM#2

I see you left out L2 open world PvP, but i do agree with most of what was discussed in that article.

  Khalathwyr

Tipster

Joined: 6/02/04
Posts: 3151

Google is your friend.

7/22/09 4:31:43 PM#3

I PvP only if it makes sense in the world/lore I'm playing in. I'm not a fan of "because I can" PvP, which makes up the majority of MMO implementations these days.

DAoC in the beginning gave a reason, my realm against yours.

WAR gave a reason (and having worked for GW for a year and played their TT games for over 11 I'm intimately familiar with it) but their implementation of how we were able to fight I found lacking.

I like to have a world lore based reason for engaging in PvP or else I just don't get into it. I use online FPS games when I just want to "prove" to the next guy I'm "better" than he/she is (as they rely on the hand/eye coordination of the player behind the keyboard and being quicker than the next person wins, just as it would in the real world scenario you open this article with).

"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

Kickstarter 1 / Naysayers 0

  mukin

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/08
Posts: 79

7/22/09 4:38:44 PM#4

 I PVP in MMOs for one simple reason: people make more interesting opponents than computers.  People don't do the same thing twice (except the really stupid ones, of course).  They don't run in a straight line.  They retreat.  They bring friends.  They respec.  They are always looking for an edge.

I occasionally read about a game (MMO or otherwise) that has a particularly good NPC 'AI', those brains that make NPCs play smarter and better.  But this is a rarely a primary goal of game developers.  (Afterall, who wants thier game to be 'harder' than the other choices out there?)  Maybe it's a limit on the game engines, maybe it's a limit on the developer's imagination.  Regardless, it it hard to argue that the actions of the Searing Gorge Fire Beetle (WoW) are much different than those of the Ekrund Nuglings (WAR).

But that's what I crave.  A genuine challenge in the form of VARIETY.  No, not 'more of them, with bigger guns, and more HP'.  I crave opponents that mix it up.  Real people are still the best way to simulate the play-style of real people!

  Neosai

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/06
Posts: 403

7/22/09 4:41:31 PM#5

I agree with most of what is put up there, however current MMORPG model offer no real consequences nor punishment for the reason and meanginless act of PK A.K.A ganking.

It is because this lack of consequence that the self proclaimed PvP fanatics simply attack other players one day, and once the deed is done they go back to being a good citizen after a slap on the wrist.  This can vary however, since some games reward people for these acts while others impose punishments that are does not really do anything.

Don't get me wrong, I love PvP, however I dislike those lukewarm actions of PvP.  If I decide to PK someone, I rather that I am given option of consequence.  Someone might gather their friends to come after me or post a reward on my death.  The idea here is that the current MMORPG doesn't allow the player to impose long lasting consequence or an easy accesss retribution.  The fact is that in real life one cannot just simply log off when vengence comes knocking.

  Antioche

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/03
Posts: 142

...

7/22/09 5:38:26 PM#6
Originally posted by DevilXaphan

I see you left out L2 open world PvP, but i do agree with most of what was discussed in that article.

Most people who have lives leave out L2 open world PvP because it takes too long to actually level a toon up high enough to have fun in L2's open world PvP. I've heard its great though, too bad I'll never experience (nor will most of North America).

It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche

  haratu

Novice Member

Joined: 4/09/09
Posts: 409

7/22/09 6:04:55 PM#7

Most important thing about PvP is definitely the goal, if nothing changes then PvP feels hollow and wasted. The example of Tarren Mill is an example of wasted PvP where almost nothing is achieved.

  Antioche

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/03
Posts: 142

...

7/22/09 6:09:31 PM#8

My first PvP experience occurred on a MUD (multi-user dungeon) called Lengeria. It was 1996, and the Godwars code had just gotten hijacked from Kavir and a rash of Godwars muds had begun popping up. My friend told me about it and I logged on using telnet on a 14.4Kbps modem. I spent an hour getting my hands chopped off and figuring out how to play the game and finally trained from mortal to avatar. Suddenly a monk named Ken appeared before me in a "blinding flash of light". Ken proceeded to beat me to a bloody pulp, mortally wound me, and then rip my head off. It was at this point in my life that I discovered the thrill and potential humiliation of RPG based pvp combat. Ken obviously was class, and had about 30 hours more play time on his toon than I did. He had a clear advantage over me, and yet the game allowed him to kill me because I put myself in a position to allow it.

Interestingly enough even back then there was a point to cutting another player's head off, aside from it being an exhilarating thing to chase someone down and kill them and watch them shout insults at you over ooc, or shout, or w/e. Killing another player provided status which in turned had benefits in the form of increased hp/mana/move caps, and being able to create better gear for yourself, etc.  

For myself, and I imagine a majority of players, the best incentive for PvP is allowing character advancement/improvement in one way or another. If I get to have another 1k life by chopping that other guy's head off then you can bet that I'm gonna work hard at getting ready to kill the SoB and laugh while I'm wiping his blood off my claws. If I get some points that let me boost some character stats, which results in almost no improvement to my character's fighting ability then you can bet I'm gonna laugh at you and find a new game. This is Warhammer's greatest flaw. They think the realm abilities they currently offer are actually an incentive to play their end-game, but they're not. Neither is zerging about to take PvP objectives. In fact, the locking of zones and such is also really dumb. Trying to force large open field battles (zerg fights) is ridiculous for a variety of reasons, such as most people's computers can't handle it, most game servers can't handle it, the resulting lag makes the event obnoxious and frustrating to the players, and the respawn system that's in place creates a team deathmatch atmosphere where players just surge back and forth killing each other in lagging aoes. No one really wins, and most people walk away having sunk in large amounts of time with very little to show for it.

In DAoC I used to run in a full group of 8, which back in the day was called a gank group, or w/e. This was a lot of fun for a variety of reasons.

1. DAoC's realm rank system provided real incentives for players to continue playing the game because the realm abilities actually made a difference in PvP (i.e. having det 5 on a savage meant you were practically unccable, whereas no det = you're fuggered)

2. Playing in a group of 8 meant you could field a fairly balanced group of dps and support/cc which meant your group could fight other full groups and have a chance of beating them = 8v8.

3. As your group of 8 continued to play together, earning realm ranks, and developing strategies, it would naturally be able to win more fights, and even fight more than 8 players at a time and still win. For instance I recall multiple times fighting 2 or even 3 groups and winning the fights. This might sound ridiculous, but the difference between skilled players who were all paying attention, experienced with their class, openly communicating, and high realm rank with players who were not was vast. Sadly these days the crappy players have all been playing long enough that they are really high realm rank and are able to just blow all their rr abilties and such making them very difficult to kill for a single group of 8 skilled players.

Taking towers and keeps was only ever a tactic used to get enemy players to come out and defend their frontier. Unfortunately Mythic moved towards objective based PvP with New Frontiers, then proceeded to ignore the disappointment of their longtime players with NF and implemented a similar system in Warhammer. It's basically a sad joke, and I just can't imagine myself playing either of those games again anytime soon. Especially with Warhammer's roll system at keep takes being a complete PoS.

I'll take incentive-based pvp anyday.

It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche

  Greenie

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/04
Posts: 551

7/22/09 6:13:19 PM#9

I agreed with most of that also. DaoC PvP was the best. Realm Pride, Relics, Keeps, Open field,, solo, duo, 8 man, zerg vs. zerg.

Three major problems with PvP nowadays. 

1. Gear reliance. - PvE doesn't have to be all about gear. Just because you release an expansion *Cough ToA*  doesn't mean you need to add in completely overpowered weapons/ gear. The look of them alone is worth getting sometimes.  Think people won't chase a look or an item design?   Check out CoH character creator,,, or WOW and their mounts.

2. Group PvP.  Games today have not focused on pvp as a group. WoW characters are all able to solo, making the reliance on a group in a boxed in battleground or WAR's scenarios,  less dynamic and less team oriented.

3. It's always two faction warfare. DaoC showed that 3 realm warfare worked very well in limiting population imbalances, because two smaller realm when needed could still gang up on the larger realm. It added to the immersion of it all. And who's heart didn't pound a little quicker when Sanaa Lathan told the predator,, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"   

I hear that Aion is the closet thing to daoc rvr in a long time. I"m hoping so.   If not, we'll see if Earthrise's resource and territory control is enough.

IF mythic would make a daoc 2 with Old Daoc concepts, the original classes only, with updated skins and a Old frontiers (larger, but not so focused on siege,  different keep models that made sense and didnt' take 40 players and 2 hours to take,, they'd have a second masterpiece.  Bring back fast-paced dynamic RvR and let go of this slowpaced stationary junk.

  Antioche

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/03
Posts: 142

...

7/22/09 6:26:22 PM#10
Originally posted by Greenie

I agreed with most of that also. DaoC PvP was the best. Realm Pride, Relics, Keeps, Open field,, solo, duo, 8 man, zerg vs. zerg.

Three major problems with PvP nowadays. 

1. Gear reliance. - PvE doesn't have to be all about gear. Just because you release an expansion *Cough ToA*  doesn't mean you need to add in completely overpowered weapons/ gear. The look of them alone is worth getting sometimes.  Think people won't chase a look or an item design?   Check out CoH character creator,,, or WOW and their mounts.

2. Group PvP.  Games today have not focused on pvp as a group. WoW characters are all able to solo, making the reliance on a group in a boxed in battleground or WAR's scenarios,  less dynamic and less team oriented.

3. It's always two faction warfare. DaoC showed that 3 realm warfare worked very well in limiting population imbalances, because two smaller realm when needed could still gang up on the larger realm. It added to the immersion of it all. And who's heart didn't pound a little quicker when Sanaa Lathan told the predator,, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"   

I hear that Aion is the closet thing to daoc rvr in a long time. I"m hoping so.   If not, we'll see if Earthrise's resource and territory control is enough.

IF mythic would make a daoc 2 with Old Daoc concepts, the original classes only, with updated skins and a Old frontiers (larger, but not so focused on siege,  different keep models that made sense and didnt' take 40 players and 2 hours to take,, they'd have a second masterpiece.  Bring back fast-paced dynamic RvR and let go of this slowpaced stationary junk.

 

I agree with you on everything ESPECIALLY your last statement. One of the best parts about daoc pvp is how fast a group can move. Seriously, perm-sprint with the fastest speed in your realm was awesome. I hate hate hate how slow Warhammer is, it's like they want everyone to get stuck in a giant clusterf$&k. I hate giant clusterf$%ks, unless I'm hitting one when I want and from the angle I want. Mobility is such a huge part of pvp that is often forgotten in today's mmorpgs. AoC's mounts are awful, and while I like WoW's flying mounts, their pvp is all about gear, which I just don't care about, especially when I can get good gear in pve more easily. Anyway, I digress. Speed songs and such are great, especially when they affect entire groups. (But not more than a group, because then you're just a zerging pos.)

It is pathos we lack, and this lack of pathos makes the worlds we explore quite stale.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Antioche

  Artursl

Novice Member

Joined: 12/11/05
Posts: 24

7/22/09 6:27:08 PM#11

I'm neutral on PVP's in MMO's. I tend to play on PvP servers (if it doesn't ruin the experience) because it adds a little bit of spice to the game. I also PvP if there is a reason for it, taking over a checkpoint or somehow else benefiting my character, my guild or my race. I sometimes tend to join the "PvP matches", if they are fun and rewarding that is. But overall PvP isn't the primary thing for me in MMO's, I trust FPS's to fill that niche for me.

  Zyllos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 534

"You do not get old and stop playing, you stop playing then get old." -- Benjamin Franklin

7/22/09 6:58:06 PM#12

To me, some type of player conflict beyond PvE is what adds to the extended life of a game. Adding something that allows players to compete against other players gets the adrenaline going. It is especially more so when there is a lot at stake. Like in Shadowbane or EQ where you either lost all your coin or possibly lost all your work in building a city or empire.

MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.

  vistakah

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/04
Posts: 118

7/22/09 6:58:51 PM#13

PVP with a reason YES.  Pointless dread style free for all PVP NO. DAOC has the closest to perfect PVP system ever designed. The model would work in any game. 3 realms in battle for territorial control where as that control had a direct impact on each individual realm. It's the only game i ever played where it felt like you were fighting for your side with an objective. Regretfully modern day PVP gaming culture will NEVER be what it once was simply because of the easy mode today's games have become.

  Neosai

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/06
Posts: 403

7/22/09 7:14:42 PM#14

I believe PvP is good when done with a meaning and purpose.  Ganking without a purpose or principle is rather silly.  However, if they find it fun, I suppose it is their way of playing the game.

Funny thing is, most PvP oriented players that are just out for blood are only half decent.  Usually it is the gamer who master both PvE and PvP including all other aspect of the game are the ones who stand at the top.

I still am waiting for games that apply some sort of optional consequence system when it comes to ganking.  Such as being able to have a system to post rewards to hunt down the said player with system guided tracking system for anyone that took the bounty.  So far EVE online seem to do this pretty well, however, I would like to see more of this type of optional consequences when it comes to ganking.  This will actually improve the game's community in general, whether it is for better or worse, at least people will be more immersed in the game knowing that their actions affect the community in a way.

  TeranHawkins

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/06
Posts: 285

Wipe them out...ALL of them.

7/22/09 8:18:26 PM#15

I like to pvp for 2 reasons. 

One it's more of a challenge going against other players because you don't know their gear or their play style so there is no single strategy that works every time against every class.

Two, raiding is boring to me.  Doing the same dungeon 4 days a week to "maybe" get a piece of gear, where I can do a battleground and get gear almost as good is the better alternative for me.  That way if I want to watch a movie, tv show, or play another video game or just do something else, I can and not have to feel obligated to a 'second job' of raiding.

  SwampRob

Novice Member

Joined: 9/05/07
Posts: 1009

7/22/09 8:24:13 PM#16

Just to offer another point of view; I never pvp.    Never.   I played Wow for four years, turned down challenges from others dozens of levels below mine, refused duels even from guildmates, etc.   

For me, I don't feel good about winning a fight with another player, and I certainly don't feel good about losing one.    And, while I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion, to me, open world pvp'ing is the equivalent of online bullying.

For those that enjoy pvp, have fun.   Personally, I'd like to see at least one MMO where there was no form of PvP whatsoever.

*Sorry about the large font, my eyes aren't what they used to be.

  kiduo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/09
Posts: 4

7/22/09 8:45:33 PM#17

I definitely agree with you. I prefer to play browser games while working..

hehe...seems very popular just jon woods said in previous discussion. here I found top 10 pvp fighting browser based games http://www.playbbg.com/features/top-pvp-fighting-browser-games.html

 

I am not sure if i broke the forum rules, anyway, i just want to say something,  among them, i prefer to play disciplemmo on playbbg and I will make a review later for the guys.

  jmsgalla

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/06
Posts: 260

7/22/09 9:47:29 PM#18
Originally posted by haratu

Most important thing about PvP is definitely the goal, if nothing changes then PvP feels hollow and wasted. The example of Tarren Mill is an example of wasted PvP where almost nothing is achieved.

 

I think this mentality is one of the problems with PVP and also a bit off topic but PVE as well.  The large scale battles that break out between players is fun.  Why does there have to be any kind of a reward other than enjoying a night of good PVP?

I think I'm a minority when I prefer to take away memories of a good night of PVP or even a long night of corpse runs (good old EQ1 days playing a cleric) after a raid wipe instead of "look at what I got last night".  The memories I'll take with me but the digital items will be gone when the next expansion comes out or I move on to the next game.

 

Basically, I PVP for the increased difficulty of playing another player not the computer's AI and for the rare chance that some large scale battle may break out in the middle of nowhere just because it's fun.

  fall0ut

Novice Member

Joined: 7/04/08
Posts: 1

7/22/09 9:51:52 PM#19
Originally posted by SwampRob

Just to offer another point of view; I never pvp.    Never.   I played Wow for four years, turned down challenges from others dozens of levels below mine, refused duels even from guildmates, etc.   

For me, I don't feel good about winning a fight with another player, and I certainly don't feel good about losing one.    And, while I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion, to me, open world pvp'ing is the equivalent of online bullying.

For those that enjoy pvp, have fun.   Personally, I'd like to see at least one MMO where there was no form of PvP whatsoever.

Absolutely agree with what you say.  Good post.  Sums up my feelings about PVP exactly.

  Airphel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/08
Posts: 51

Look at the Side of the Bright

7/22/09 11:18:58 PM#20

For me it hasd to be meaningful. Every guild I have ever been in, I have fought to defend the "kingdom", or "fight the good fight".

 

It makes up for the lack of ability to do so in real life against the real villians- Politicians, Financial institutions, Wal-Mart... ect...

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)

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