Here's the angry letter Solo advocates knew it was bound to receive. Wait! Before you dismiss me as officious, hear me out. I don't know what makes Solo advocates think that we can change the truth if we don't like it the way it is. Maybe it's been sipping cuckoo juice. The fact of the matter is that Solo advocates has come up with proven methods to cause people to betray one another and hate one another. All you have to do is let your guard down.

Solo advocates insists that five-crystal orgone generators can eliminate mind-control energies that are being radiated from secret, underground, government facilities. Sorry, Solo advocates, but, with apologies to Gershwin, "it ain't necessarily so." While some of Solo advocates's jokes are very attractive on the surface and are unquestionably entertaining, they ultimately serve to manufacture and compile daunting lists of imaginary transgressions committed against Solo advocates. Of course, there is a lot of debate on this subject but the best scholars warrant that Solo advocates's commentaries reflect several layers of moral concern for many religions. As an interesting experiment, try to point this out to it. (You might want to don safety equipment first.) I think you'll find that Solo advocates is known for walking into crowded rooms and telling everyone there that it can make all of our problems go away merely by sprinkling some sort of magic, pink, pixie dust over everything that it considers bumptious or possession-obsessed. Try, if you can, to concoct a statement better calculated to show how deplorable Solo advocates is. You can't do it. Not only that, but its primary goal is to generate alienation and withdrawal. All of its other objectives are secondary to this one supreme purpose. That's why you must always remember that Solo advocates's shock troops argue that metagrobolism can quell the hatred and disorder in our society. These are the same satanic, querulous beguilers who purge the land of every non-misinformed person, gene, idea, and influence. This is no coincidence; Solo advocates apparently believes that everything it says is totally and thoroughly true. You and I know better than that. You and I know that we cannot afford to waste our time, resources, and energy by dwelling upon inequities of the past. Instead, we must chastise Solo advocates for not doing any research before spouting off. Doing so would be significantly easier if more people were to understand that when I hear Solo advocates say that men are spare parts in the social repertoire—mere optional extras—I have to wonder about it. Is it entirely uneducated? Is it simply being oppressive? Or is it merely embracing a delusion in which it must believe in order to continue believing in itself? It would take days to give the complete answer to that question but the gist of it is that some reputed—as opposed to reputable—members of Solo advocates's mercantalism movement quite adamantly avouch that the kids on the playground are happy to surrender to the school bully. I find it rather astonishing that anyone could claim such a thing but then again, Solo advocates's rank-and-file followers remain largely silent when asked about the correlative connecting Solo advocates to McCarthyism. The rare times they do deign to comment they invariably skew the issue to prevent people from realizing that Solo advocates says that its mind games provide a liberating insight into life, the universe, and everything. What it means by this, of course, is that it wants free reign to dump effluent into creeks, lakes, streams, and rivers.

Daily, the truth is being impressed upon us that Solo advocates owns drawers and boxes full of legal documents, which it is convinced prove its position. Get that straight, please. Any other thinking is blame-shoving or responsibility-dodging. Furthermore, we can divide Solo advocates's pleas into three categories: foul, morally questionable, and brutal. Solo advocates asserts that those of us who oppose it would rather run than fight. That assertion is not only untrue but a conscious lie. Now that you've heard what I've had to say, I want you to think about it. And I want you to join me and shed a little light on some of the ignorant prejudices that reside within Solo advocates's pea-sized brain.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by johnspartan

Stop fucking up my MMORPGs. I don't care about you and I don't think you deserve to be a hero because I don't think you are special.

 

But you're special because you and 39 other "heroes" found the time to whale on a mob for 40 minutes? LOL. You obviously don't get what an MMORPG truly is and why people play with others, besides personal gain.

That's fine, WoW is still going strong and is a perfect game for you. It's absolutely greed driven, requires you to group with others to accomplish anything worthwhile and makes you feel special and heroic with glowie shoulder pads.

UO was my favorite game it's all you solo-equal, anti-group "everyone must be equal or else!!!!" gamers that have ruined the MMORPG genre in the first place.

I'm sorry not everyone can be uber-hero bunny slayer some of us would rather make a name for ourselves rather then be handed everything because we're special and unique snowflakes.

It's an ARGON generator, dammit. ARGON.

And please experiment with the use of the return key.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Cereo

 

There's more to life than taking a whiz, you know.  Lots of breaks cannot be scheduled, people have to go AFK all the time.  More players mean more potential for the game coming to a screeching halt because RL intrudes.

Which is why I added other examples such as drinks, kids,,, I guess I needed to put an : ETC ....   for you because it wasn't clear enough to get that? More potential for intrusion but still the same, groups tend to stil act in the same manner regardless of the type of intrusion.  Once again, you nitpick the sillyshit such as me not being specific with an ETC , and you offer nothing of value to the debate/discussion.

 

That's why most of the famous tennis players were all singles players, right?  You really don't see many "team players" who are household names.

Or it could be that it's easier to market around an individual because chances are they are going to win more consistently than a team will. Does Tiger Woods win the team based golfer's tourney's all the time? He is the best golfer in the world so by your logic his team should be too. The fact that it is HARDER for a team to be in the top rankings week in and week out of tourneys is exactly why they aren't household names. Endorsements are not going to throw millions of dollars at teams where they have no idea where they are going to place, but a singles person pretty much stays in the same 1-10  range of ranking spots until they retire. 

That's also another reason why NFL , NBA, MLB, and Hockey are the top sports in the USA, because teams don't win the championship year in and year out, and why people wrap themselves around a dynasty when a team gets on a streak like the Bulls or Patriots. Because winning it all in a team is harder to do in sports.

 

But people don't get bonuses for building a team, only for the performance of that team.  If it was just making a team and they don't have to actually do anything, that's simple.  It's what you *DO* with the team that earns you bonuses because they can do more than a single person can.  However, a team of 6 people is not inherently better than a group of 6 individuals.

Yes but if you put a team of 6 crappy people together, what they DO will hinder their progress with wipes, poor communication, breaks in action, and inconsistent play. Whereas, a solo player doesn't need to worry about any of that,, just their job. Remember when you put a team together in an instance the workload should be significantly greater than the soloer's. Otherwise you have soloer's saying,, why does content get easier when people group?? Is it fair this one mob kicks my ass and a group can take twenty of them like they were greys???

 

 

 

Originally posted by johnspartan

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by johnspartan

Stop fucking up my MMORPGs. I don't care about you and I don't think you deserve to be a hero because I don't think you are special.

 

But you're special because you and 39 other "heroes" found the time to whale on a mob for 40 minutes? LOL. You obviously don't get what an MMORPG truly is and why people play with others, besides personal gain.

That's fine, WoW is still going strong and is a perfect game for you. It's absolutely greed driven, requires you to group with others to accomplish anything worthwhile and makes you feel special and heroic with glowie shoulder pads.

 

UO was my favorite game it's all you solo-equal, anti-group "everyone must be equal or else!!!!" gamers that have ruined the MMORPG genre in the first place.

I'm sorry not everyone can be uber-hero bunny slayer some of us would rather make a name for ourselves rather then be handed everything because we're special and unique snowflakes.

I'm going to drop this since you obviously are having some sort of an issue and cannot maintain the civility required to hold an interesting discussion. I mean you started replying to yourself, dude.

Anyway, good luck in WoW.

Originally posted by johnspartan
 

UO was my favorite game it's all you solo-equal, anti-group "everyone must be equal or else!!!!" gamers that have ruined the MMORPG genre in the first place.

I'm sorry not everyone can be uber-hero bunny slayer some of us would rather make a name for ourselves rather then be handed everything because we're special and unique snowflakes.

It's funny that you should say that since games like UO, SWG and EVE are MMOs where people actually could make a name for themselves and stand out from the crowd. Unless, of course, your idea of making a name for yourself means "Look at the size of MY shoulderpads." All three are MMOs that encourage interaction, foster community and allow individuals to excel in both content and social arenas.

Equality when dealing with more then one person is a myth.

No two things are ever truly equal when it comes to people.

Get over it.

If you are going to play an online game, expect other people to be better then you.

Don't ask for handouts.

If you don't like forced grouping then don't do it, but don't expect the same rewards if you won't participate that is insanity.

Originally posted by TsukieU

Here's the angry letter Solo advocates knew it was bound to receive. Wait! Before you dismiss me as officious, hear me out. I don't know what makes Solo advocates think that we can change the truth if we don't like it the way it is. Maybe it's been sipping cuckoo juice. The fact of the matter is that Solo advocates has come up with proven methods to cause people to betray one another and hate one another. All you have to do is let your guard down.

Umm, sorry dude, but without actual paragrahs to make that a less than painful read causing my eyes to burn out of my sockets,, I'm not reading that.

This all boils down to Theme Park MMOs in my opinion.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by johnspartan
 

UO was my favorite game it's all you solo-equal, anti-group "everyone must be equal or else!!!!" gamers that have ruined the MMORPG genre in the first place.

I'm sorry not everyone can be uber-hero bunny slayer some of us would rather make a name for ourselves rather then be handed everything because we're special and unique snowflakes.

 

Iy's funny that you should say that since games like UO, SWG and EVE are MMOs where people actually could make a name for themselves and stand out from the crowd. Unless, of course, your idea of making a name for yourslef means "Look at the size of MY shoulderpads."

 

It's not forced equality because you don't want to group.

UO was pure... it was simple...

I've never used the term carebear in this way, but I will now.

It's you carebears that want everything equal and special treatment for solo players that are ruining the genre that UO built.

There is nothing equal or special about anyone in UO it was all about what you did and who you were. People who made a name for themselves were special because they were NOT equal.

Originally posted by heartless

I'm going to drop this since you obviously are having some sort of an issue and cannot maintain the civility required to hold an interesting discussion. I mean you started replying to yourself, dude.

Anyway, good luck in WoW.

Good luck finding a solo massively MULTIPLAYER online role playing game that fits your need to be the special uber king of wonderful awesomeness that everyone loves and respects instead of user #76224

Originally posted by johnspartan

 I've never used the term carebear in this way, but I will now.

Oh, have we descended to that level?

You know when you start bringing out the carebear insults that you've completely lost the argument.

All that really remains is for you to start insulting his momma.

Originally posted by johnspartan

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by johnspartan
 

UO was my favorite game it's all you solo-equal, anti-group "everyone must be equal or else!!!!" gamers that have ruined the MMORPG genre in the first place.

I'm sorry not everyone can be uber-hero bunny slayer some of us would rather make a name for ourselves rather then be handed everything because we're special and unique snowflakes.

 

Iy's funny that you should say that since games like UO, SWG and EVE are MMOs where people actually could make a name for themselves and stand out from the crowd. Unless, of course, your idea of making a name for yourslef means "Look at the size of MY shoulderpads."

 

 

It's not forced equality because you don't want to group.

UO was pure... it was simple...

I've never used the term carebear in this way, but I will now.

It's you carebears that want everything equal and special treatment for solo players that are ruining the genre that UO built.

There is nothing equal or special about anyone in UO it was all about what you did and who you were. People who made a name for themselves were special because they were NOT equal.

I think you're on a different topic here. Either way, your tangent does help to reinforce the point that virtual worlds with mechanics to support individual achievement allow players to excel and gain recognition in the community. You end up with notable traders, diplomats, killers, leaders and a host of other avenues where individuals can stand out.

The solo = carebear thing I don't quite get, especially if you are an ex-UOer. Would you consider Sir Galad and Xavori to be carebears?

Originally posted by Dalgor

This all boils down to Theme Park MMOs in my opinion.

I think that play a big part in it. The DikuMUD design, enhanced and refined for MMOs, has made for a wonderfully entertaining game for millions of players but has resulted in a rather shallow environment created to almost restrict anyone from really rising to the top or developing any level of significant notoriety. 

Originally posted by Dalgor

Honoestly the main reasoning for soloing is this, the majority of MMO players these days suck,

Because of the spoon fed solo content , overpowering of items/gear, and that is what MMO games are doing, making games easier so you do not have to actually play well.

they never kno how to play their characters the most effeciently,

Because ITEMS + SPEC = power /efficiency. 

they always ask stupid questions they should already kno the answer to

Not asking a question would be stupid if you were trying to learn. Not answering that question or pointing them to tutorials, articles, websites, manuals they should read to stop asking questions where answes are clearly provided is just being a dick. At the same time when starting a new game, read the f'n manual  so I get that part of your comment too.  EvE was big on this with the F12 tutorials, newbies didn't want to run the tutorials because they were so used to WoW handing them all the answers.

, they are usualy pretty slow and clumsy navigating around the world

When in a new world you generally do move a little clumsier and navigate slower, same thing if you go to a new city,, only familiarity and time fixes that, it's not really an endictment of the player's skill or intelligence.

, they always want to fight/PvP when you could be doing alot more productive things

Productive to you is not the same as it is to me. Daily quests I find anything but productive.

.The fact is, I can solo most group content, get all the loot and experience

Because MMO's design games to help the soloer along and are focusing on soloers more and more everyday.

, sure I might die one or two times trying to achieve my goal of soloing the boss, but that makes it tough and challenging which of MMOs arnt these days.

And if MMO's aren't challenging should that be the reason players today suck? Without challenge there is no room for learning or growth to develop skills,tactics.

 

P.S I blame the lack of player skill in MMOs these days to the highly focusing on PVP making them draw in Ganker Children players

Actually in older games it was the pvp'rs that generally learned the new strategies, how to make a character more efficient through abilities, skills, teamwork. The top "GROUP" Pvp'rs in daoc also were generally part of the top pve crowd.  That's not saying that PVE-only guilds didn't contribute, but  PVP'rs definitely have a large influence in the education of how game mechanics and skills work.

Based on your earlier comments, it's much more likely that games being designed in such an easy to complete manner where most rewards are handed out for menial tasks even in failure is why there is a lack of player skill.

Originally posted by LynxJSA 

I think you're on a different topic here. Either way, your tangent does help to reinforce the point that virtual worlds with mechanics to support individual achievement allow players to excel and gain recognition in the community. You end up with notable traders, diplomats, killers, leaders and a host of other avenues where individuals can stand out.

What about a group or guild gaining recognition in a community for their actions?

That is how I relate all of this...

The whole solo versus group thing and what one group deserves over another is irrelevant.

No one deserves anything.

You do what the game allows you to do and you can make a name for yourself if you are good at it.

If the game requires grouping to "be the best" then you need to group to be the best, not ask for special treatment because you refuse to group or aren't able to.

That's my point.

It's not about gear and loot or any of that, it's about the principle of the matter.

And I believe that all these kiddies who want to be the most specialist and unique snowflake in an online world of thousands need to grow up and realize no one cares and if you want to do anything in an online game then it's going to have to reflect off of the perceptions of others... i.e. solo play doesn't matter because no one cares what you do by yourself.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by johnspartan

 I've never used the term carebear in this way, but I will now.

Oh, have we descended to that level?

You know when you start bringing out the carebear insults that you've completely lost the argument.

All that really remains is for you to start insulting his momma.

Your momma... ;) jk

No I finally understand the people who would call others carebears now.

Jealous whiners that want what other people have because they have the time/skill/ability to do something they themselves do not : group/raid.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Dalgor

This all boils down to Theme Park MMOs in my opinion.

 

I think that play a big part in it. The DikuMUD design, enhanced and refined for MMOs, has made for a wonderfully entertaining game for millions of players but has resulted in a rather shallow environment created to almost restrict anyone from really rising to the top or developing any level of significant notoriety. 

That's the problem isn't it? MMOs are slowly graduating from being virtual worlds with lots of possibilities, even for individuals, to a whole bunch of amusement rides with rewards at the end of each.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Dalgor

This all boils down to Theme Park MMOs in my opinion.

 

I think that play a big part in it. The DikuMUD design, enhanced and refined for MMOs, has made for a wonderfully entertaining game for millions of players but has resulted in a rather shallow environment created to almost restrict anyone from really rising to the top or developing any level of significant notoriety. 

That's the problem isn't it? MMOs are slowly graduating from being virtual worlds with lots of possibilities, even for individuals, to a whole bunch of amusement rides with rewards at the end of each.

Agreed.

It's not about what you do it's about what you have.

"The things you own end up owning you."

But that is totally off topic.

The main point is that if the game requires group play to be the best you play in groups or you are not the best. It's simple.

MMOs are no longer about community they are about stuff and I blame Everquest.

That being said, you can still find community and enjoy a game as a grouper in modern games like WoW.

And solo players asking for equal treatment to me sounds exactly like reverse racism and affirmative action and any other "I want to be equal but to be equal I need special treatment" bullsh!t I hate so much.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

 I think you're on a different topic here. Either way, your tangent does help to reinforce the point that virtual worlds with mechanics to support individual achievement allow players to excel and gain recognition in the community. You end up with notable traders, diplomats, killers, leaders and a host of other avenues where individuals can stand out.

 

I think this is part of the problem.  If the game is using mechanics to make solo play easier it makes it harder for the soloer to stand out and he becomes just another faceless drone completing easy to do tasks.

A soloer who is in a game that requires grouping and excels builds a name for himself and gains recognition in the community.

For example in DaoC we had one Hero- named Marval or Marvel (sorry for spelling) who would solo RvR,, he wasn't anti-social and he would group every so rarely, but his core RvR revolved around solo play. Because he was successful in soloing on a non-stealther class in a group-centric RvR game he gained respect from many players.   In a game like WOW or WaR we're pvp is very pisspoor and designed in scenarios and battlegrounds solo players do not stand out for doing anything extra-ordinary.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Dalgor

This all boils down to Theme Park MMOs in my opinion.

 

I think that play a big part in it. The DikuMUD design, enhanced and refined for MMOs, has made for a wonderfully entertaining game for millions of players but has resulted in a rather shallow environment created to almost restrict anyone from really rising to the top or developing any level of significant notoriety. 

That's the problem isn't it? MMOs are slowly graduating from being virtual worlds with lots of possibilities, even for individuals, to a whole bunch of amusement rides with rewards at the end of each.

Yes, this is why we must introduce developers to new concepts or else mmorpgs are done for. Personally, I think the "soloist and group person working together to achieve objectives without each other's help" idea would make an awesome game. The next big game will involve an effective way to get soloists and groups in the same game without watered-down content for both.

Too many of you are taking my post and applying it to their experiences.

 In my experiences, especially in EQ, and EQ2 where in the begining of the game forming a good group could take more then an hour.  Then just when you get together, all find eachother and start the quest, someone has to leave. 

 That really puts a bad image to that player that just made this group stop, and have to find a replacment, then wait for that replacment to get to them, and in some cases, go back and help the replacment do the preceding quest so they can do the current quest.  It really turns into a hassle.

 And the accusation that I just use these things as an excuse to solo, because I also said it is my quiet time...don't try to play it into something it isn't. There are times I want a break, and just beacause I call it quiet time, doesn't mean it has to be quiet. Sometimes I will go out with friends, and sometimes I will log into a game.

 But if my family is still in the house and I log into a game, I make sure I am in a psotion to log off asap if someone needs me, without creating a bad reputation for myself for abandoning groups.

 If my family is out of the house, and I know I will have an hour or more, I will jump into a group, or create a group in a heart beat.

 I'm still not sure what the complaints are about, I do both, solo, and group, and I don't tend to complain about either one, some days it's easy, others it's a pian in the butt.

 I prefer to have the ability to solo in a game, but only because I don't want to sit there picking my nose waiting for a group when in some games that can take over an hour.  But if I can go grind some mobs, or knock out some easier quest while waiting for a group, why should it matter to anyone else?

 And for the record, I still think the main thing people are missing about making a good community...it requires a small community, and PvP. but that a whole other issue...

Originally posted by johnspartan

Originally posted by LynxJSA 

I think you're on a different topic here. Either way, your tangent does help to reinforce the point that virtual worlds with mechanics to support individual achievement allow players to excel and gain recognition in the community. You end up with notable traders, diplomats, killers, leaders and a host of other avenues where individuals can stand out.

 

What about a group or guild gaining recognition in a community for their actions?

That still existed in UO. What server did you play? I could probably name several well-known guilds and groups from it. You could probably name at least a dozen.

Originally posted by johnspartan 

Jealous whiners that want what other people have because they have the time/skill/ability to do something they themselves do not : group/raid.

Equal progression?

What a terrible person I truly am for suggesting that we should provide comparable character progression for people based on their ability to play well rather than on their choice of playstyle.

The day that a crappy group player can progress more than a skilled solo player in an MMO, that game has officially failed at being challenging and all group "rewards" become undeserved.

Originally posted by RamenThief7

Personally, I think the "soloist and group person working together to achieve objectives without each other's help" idea would make an awesome game.

It's already in UO, Vanguard and EQ2. Probably in several other MMOs.

UO has museums that players can contribute to in order to advance their town. Vanguard allows diplomats and other players doing solo activities to help gain benenfits for their town or guild. EQ2's status points can be accumulated on personal and guild levels. Players can work towards group goals without having to wait until they are tied by the waist to 7 other people who want to do the same thing... at the same time... with the same amount of free time... and who are all the probper roles with the group-accepted skillset for the task.