Is it just me or does the new SW:ToR game play seem to totally lead you by the hand during game play.  I recently viewed that vid doc about voice overs and in doing so we got to see some of the game play we'll encounter in game.   After watching it a couple of times I got the feeling the designers of this game think they need to make the game play so linear that they even went so far as to point out the obvious to players by telling them where to go for cover.   Why?   Is it maybe because those are the only places the character can get the bonus to their protection for being in cover?  They are pre-programmed trigger points?   If that is the case the game is flawed.  

Your combat system for smugglers is right up there with the SOE SWG:NGE combat system.    I just have this weird feeling about this.   It is obvious that this games design is so linear that they even programmed where your character should be in order to receive the benefit of cover.   Ugh...I so hate that.

If this game is so instanced - why are the designers not just using true FPS type combat with physics and ballistics and LOS mechanics.   This makes better sense then coming up with some force fed combat mechanisms that a player must trigger by following a linear path while in combat.   

I was sorta getting into this game and was looking forward to play a smuggler, and now, after see the way they intend to force feed game play I am really getting turned off by this.   Sheeesh, the designers might as well hang a sign around our necks that says, "stupid gamer", because basically that is what they are doing.   I've played my share of FPS games and I know how to use cover to my advantage.   If it works in all those other games the way it is suppose to, why can't the designers at Bioware make it work.  

I really just keep seeing the fiasco that was SWG:NGE's psuedo FPS style combat failure and how every shot you made, (as long as you held the target recticle on the enemy) it would track to them - like guided missles.    Imagine blaster bolts like we see in the movies moving like a guided missle to their target.    Yep.  That is how they are in SWG:NGE and I bet you this game is no different.  

If you are going to have ranged combat in this game - just do us all a favor and make it true FPS.  

Look at the screenshot below(thanks to who ever did these) and look that the obvious.  The designers must have programmed in trigger points that your cahracter must be standing on in order for you to gain the benefits of cover.   That is the only thing I can think of for their reasoning behind this system and it is lame.    People say WoW is easy.   LOL!  No...this is easy.   When they literally say you go here, and here and here and our cover system will work they way it was intended.  Anywhere else and you're SOL.

OMG...I look at the picture above and just want to cry.    Are designers really thinking we gamers just lack brains?  Does anyone else feel insulted by this?   These games just keep getting dumbed down to the point where we players will just put in the CD, load the game and the game will play itself.   ::shakes her head::

Despite popular belief, most people infact, do not know how to play. 5 minutes after being shown how to use a tree, most people will have forgotten about that mechanic entirely.

"Is it maybe because those are the only places the character can get the bonus to their protection for being in cover? They are pre-programmed trigger points? If that is the case the game is flawed. "

That's exactly why. It's also what they have been saying since the cover system was announced.

There are 'pro-programmed' cover points, and that is how the system is designed to work. Smugglers will get extra cover points, but the game is not a 'cover based' game, you never really see Jedi or clones in cover. I have the feeling cover is going to give defensive bonuses at the cost of offense for Troopers, while the Smuggler class will get some mitigation for that.

Yeah, the cover icons look a bit stupid, but we already knew that you were only going to be able to cover behind certain objects, not everywhere. It's not necesarrily a dumbed down feature, not more than the features of all other theme park mmo's are 'dumbed down'.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

"Is it maybe because those are the only places the character can get the bonus to their protection for being in cover? They are pre-programmed trigger points? If that is the case the game is flawed. "

 

That's exactly why. It's also what they have been saying since the cover system was announced.

Then as I said it is flawed.   People scream the WoW is easy...well don't you worry, because here comes SW:ToR - oh wait...its even easier, they show you where to go and where to stand and who knows what else.   Sad.

How do we know this isn't some sorta noobie tutorial area?

I have no idea whether it is or isn't, just a question.

Originally posted by Tiurinn

Yeah, the cover icons look a bit stupid, but we already knew that you were only going to be able to cover behind certain objects, not everywhere. It's not necesarrily a dumbed down feature, not more than the features of all other theme park mmo's are 'dumbed down'.

^ This. I don't think I could of said it better.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by zymurgeist

"Is it maybe because those are the only places the character can get the bonus to their protection for being in cover? They are pre-programmed trigger points? If that is the case the game is flawed. "

 

That's exactly why. It's also what they have been saying since the cover system was announced.

 

Then as I said it is flawed.   People scream the WoW is easy...well don't you worry, because here comes SW:ToR - oh wait...its even easier, they show you where to go and where to stand and who knows what else.   Sad.

Just confirming your fears. It's going to be in the game that way there's no changing it now.

Originally posted by Mazin

How do we know this isn't some sorta noobie tutorial area?

I have no idea whether it is or isn't, just a question.

I would also say this is a tutorial, look at the level of the smuggler, he is only lvl 6 so to me I guess this is just a reminder and would imagine would turn off after a certain lvl/

Originally posted by jpc123

Originally posted by Mazin

How do we know this isn't some sorta noobie tutorial area?

I have no idea whether it is or isn't, just a question.

I would also say this is a tutorial, look at the level of the smuggler, he is only lvl 6 so to me I guess this is just a reminder and would imagine would turn off after a certain lvl/

But why would you want to turn it off...? It would make sense to know where to cover, since you cant cover everywere apparently.

Originally posted by Mazin

How do we know this isn't some sorta noobie tutorial area?

I have no idea whether it is or isn't, just a question.

Because if you go back to the announcement they made about the cover system that's exactly how they described it. It may not look that stupid in the final version but they will cue you where to stand to recieve cover bonuses.

Assumptions...

We do not know whether you see those thing are there as a part of the Smuggler tutorial and/or whether you can turn them on and off. Even if they are a part of the class, I personally do not see a major problem as I have gotten used to them in other games.

At this stage, I hardly see this as a major issue you make it to be.

"Your combat system for smugglers is right up there with the SOE SWG:NGE combat system. I just have this weird feeling about this. It is obvious that this games design is so linear that they even programmed where your character should be in order to receive the benefit of cover. Ugh...I so hate that."

A nice argument. I really like this type of reasoning.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Mazin

How do we know this isn't some sorta noobie tutorial area?

I have no idea whether it is or isn't, just a question.

 

Because if you go back to the announcement they made about the cover system that's exactly how they described it. It may not look that stupid in the final version but they will cue you where to stand to recieve cover bonuses.

And the system is flawed and lame.   It makes the game seem so linear and forced.   As I statd if you think WoW is easy, this game takes it to a new level.  

In WoW, let's say you are doing one of the Scarlet Onslaught quest, take the one where you need to go kill the prisoners.    You have to ind the prisoners in the cages first.   Then kill them.   The problem is you have to either fight your way through the defenders to get to the prisoners - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the castle grounds and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete the quest.   There are many ways to go about doing this and it is not linear at all.     From what I have seen of some of these SW:ToR quest they have no freedom what so ever.   The player is forced to go from point A to point B to point C and son and so forth as you do the quest in a very linear fashion and you cannot figure out a different means to do the quest because it it is programmed to be played a certain way - no way to deviate from the path at all.   I dunno about you, but even WoW doesn't hold your hand that much.

Oh for gods sakes. Look, contrary to YOUR belief, gamers are NOT the only people that exist. There ARE people out there who DO NOT know how to play an MMO. Not to mention that every single MMO out there is babied down so much right now that they ALL treat people as though they don't know how to play.

Get over it.

I guess all Relic games (Company of Heroes, Dawn of War II) are noob games, too. They have little dots on the ground telling you where cover is and how much cover each object provides.

You call it " flawed " but whats the flaw you keep talking about ?!?

This system only applies to some Classes in the game. Since not everyone can use cover they had to give the non-cover using Classes an even chance to win in a duel. With fixed cover points Classes that cant cover may manage to learn them and counter Classes that can use them. [ this is just a theory though ]

As many people have said before , it may just be a tutorial thing and either dissapears or can be turned off.

Originally posted by thexrated

Assumptions...

We do not know whether you see those thing are there as a part of the Smuggler tutorial and/or whether you can turn them on and off. Even if they are a part of the class, I personally do not see a major problem as I have gotten used to them in other games.

At this stage, I hardly see this as a major issue you make it to be.

Because if later, let's say this is a tutorial, and these are where the designers say you'll get the benefits and later they turn off the system...then as I stated before your SOL if you do not hit the spot they "programmed" into the game.    That means you the player will be forced to do the obvious - I dunno about you - but when I play an FPS I try not to do the obvious - because 9 times out of 10 that is what the other player expected.   Same goes for any MMORPG.   If I can figure out a way to get past the bad guys to get to my goal - I am going to do it.   I dunno, maybe I am weird in that way, but I always try to take the path of least resistance.  

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Mazin

How do we know this isn't some sorta noobie tutorial area?

I have no idea whether it is or isn't, just a question.

 

Because if you go back to the announcement they made about the cover system that's exactly how they described it. It may not look that stupid in the final version but they will cue you where to stand to recieve cover bonuses.

 

And the system is flawed and lame.   It makes the game seem so linear and forced.   As I statd if you think WoW is easy, this game takes it to a new level.  

In WoW, let's say you are doing one of the Scarlet Onslaught quest, take the one where you need to go kill the prisoners.    You have to ind the prisoners in the cages first.   Then kill them.   The problem is you have to either fight your way through the defenders to get to the prisoners - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the castle grounds and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete the quest.   There are many ways to go about doing this and it is not linear at all.     From what I have seen of some of these SW:ToR quest they have no freedom what so ever.   The player is forced to go from point A to point B to point C and son and so forth as you do the quest in a very linear fashion and you cannot figure out a different means to do the quest because it it is programmed to be played a certain way - no way to deviate from the path at all.   I dunno about you, but even WoW doesn't hold your hand that much.

You're talking about two different things in your example.

You're saying the quests in SW: TOR are linear, but you don't compare the WoW quest to the SW: TOR quest. The WoW quest is this: Kill the prisoners. That's it. How is that freedom? Oh! You can choose how to kill the prisoners. Wow. Then you run back and turn it in, done.

With SW: TOR, you get to kill a bunch of mobs on your way to the next NPC in the quest. You can either fight your way through the defenders to get to the NPC - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the... spaceship... and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete your journey to the NPC. See, same level of "freedom". Both of the quests are linear - the WoW quest says "Kill 50 prisoners". The SW: TOR quest says, "Kill me or save me, I'm the Captain", and you get different results based on which choice you make.

So really, SW: TOR quests are worth two or three WoW quests.

Yep. This is what I've been saying about this game all along. Any "choice", any freedom, is simply an illusion. I figured out from the first few interviews that this game was going to be on rails. It's a glorified console game.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by thexrated

Assumptions...

We do not know whether you see those thing are there as a part of the Smuggler tutorial and/or whether you can turn them on and off. Even if they are a part of the class, I personally do not see a major problem as I have gotten used to them in other games.

At this stage, I hardly see this as a major issue you make it to be.

 

Because if later, let's say this is a tutorial, and these are where the designers say you'll get the benefits and later they turn off the system...then as I stated before your SOL if you do not hit the spot they "programmed" into the game.    That means you the player will be forced to do the obvious - I dunno about you - but when I play an FPS I try not to do the obvious - because 9 times out of 10 that is what the other player expected.   Same goes for any MMORPG.   If I can figure out a way to get past the bad guys to get to my goal - I am going to do it.   I dunno, maybe I am weird in that way, but I always try to take the path of least resistance.  

This is an RPG. Remember that. You can still hide behind objects, even if they don't provide a cover bonus, if you want to ambush someone. Works in most MMOs unless your target has some type of tracking and can see you. But if you don't have a system of specific cover spots designed to give you defensive or offensive bonuses, it won't tie in with the rest of the game's combat. Which is number based. Because this is an RPG.

Edit: The other way to do it, which would be more realistic and might appease you, is to give global bonuses to different types of cover. Vegetation = light, gives you -5% incoming damage. Trees, dirt walls, wood, etc. = medium cover, gives you -10% inc. damage. Stone, metal = heavy, gives you -15% inc. damage. Or something like that. But that'd take more programming. That's how Relic games do it.

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Mazin

How do we know this isn't some sorta noobie tutorial area?

I have no idea whether it is or isn't, just a question.

 

Because if you go back to the announcement they made about the cover system that's exactly how they described it. It may not look that stupid in the final version but they will cue you where to stand to recieve cover bonuses.

 

And the system is flawed and lame.   It makes the game seem so linear and forced.   As I statd if you think WoW is easy, this game takes it to a new level.  

In WoW, let's say you are doing one of the Scarlet Onslaught quest, take the one where you need to go kill the prisoners.    You have to ind the prisoners in the cages first.   Then kill them.   The problem is you have to either fight your way through the defenders to get to the prisoners - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the castle grounds and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete the quest.   There are many ways to go about doing this and it is not linear at all.     From what I have seen of some of these SW:ToR quest they have no freedom what so ever.   The player is forced to go from point A to point B to point C and son and so forth as you do the quest in a very linear fashion and you cannot figure out a different means to do the quest because it it is programmed to be played a certain way - no way to deviate from the path at all.   I dunno about you, but even WoW doesn't hold your hand that much.

You're talking about two different things in your example.

You're saying the quests in SW: TOR are linear, but you don't compare the WoW quest to the SW: TOR quest. The WoW quest is this: Kill the prisoners. That's it. How is that freedom? Oh! You can choose how to kill the prisoners. Wow. Then you run back and turn it in, done.

With SW: TOR, you get to kill a bunch of mobs on your way to the next NPC in the quest. You can either fight your way through the defenders to get to the NPC - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the... spaceship... and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete your journey to the NPC. See, same level of "freedom". Both of the quests are linear - the WoW quest says "Kill 50 prisoners". The SW: TOR quest says, "Kill me or save me, I'm the Captain", and you get different results based on which choice you make.

So really, SW: TOR quests are worth two or three WoW quests.

No you're mssing the whole point.   Its not the end of the quest or the result, it is how you go about doing it.    Forget it.   Wouldn't matter how much I try to explain it.  I could even draw it out and you'd probably still not understand.   I will say this.  If this is the kind of game SW'ToR is going to be...you can have it.   I've played one to many "linear" MMORPG's and to be honest they are just not my kind of game.    SW:ToR is shaping up to be just that.
 

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Mazin

How do we know this isn't some sorta noobie tutorial area?

I have no idea whether it is or isn't, just a question.

 

Because if you go back to the announcement they made about the cover system that's exactly how they described it. It may not look that stupid in the final version but they will cue you where to stand to recieve cover bonuses.

 

And the system is flawed and lame.   It makes the game seem so linear and forced.   As I statd if you think WoW is easy, this game takes it to a new level.  

In WoW, let's say you are doing one of the Scarlet Onslaught quest, take the one where you need to go kill the prisoners.    You have to ind the prisoners in the cages first.   Then kill them.   The problem is you have to either fight your way through the defenders to get to the prisoners - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the castle grounds and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete the quest.   There are many ways to go about doing this and it is not linear at all.     From what I have seen of some of these SW:ToR quest they have no freedom what so ever.   The player is forced to go from point A to point B to point C and son and so forth as you do the quest in a very linear fashion and you cannot figure out a different means to do the quest because it it is programmed to be played a certain way - no way to deviate from the path at all.   I dunno about you, but even WoW doesn't hold your hand that much.

You're talking about two different things in your example.

You're saying the quests in SW: TOR are linear, but you don't compare the WoW quest to the SW: TOR quest. The WoW quest is this: Kill the prisoners. That's it. How is that freedom? Oh! You can choose how to kill the prisoners. Wow. Then you run back and turn it in, done.

With SW: TOR, you get to kill a bunch of mobs on your way to the next NPC in the quest. You can either fight your way through the defenders to get to the NPC - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the... spaceship... and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete your journey to the NPC. See, same level of "freedom". Both of the quests are linear - the WoW quest says "Kill 50 prisoners". The SW: TOR quest says, "Kill me or save me, I'm the Captain", and you get different results based on which choice you make.

So really, SW: TOR quests are worth two or three WoW quests.

No you're mssing the whole point.   Its not the end of the quest or the result, it is how you go about doing it.    Forget it.   Wouldn't matter how much I try to explain it.  I could even draw it out and you'd probably still not understand.   I will say this.  If this is the kind of game SW'ToR is going to be...you can have it.   I've played one to many "linear" MMORPG's and to be honest they are just not my kind of game.    SW:ToR is shaping up to be just that.
 

Well, this surprises you? Seriously, go wait for Earthrise or MO. From your sig I can guess you play EVE, or used to - that should be sandbox enough for you. At least in SW: TOR, there's a story, and that story has choices.

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Mazin

How do we know this isn't some sorta noobie tutorial area?

I have no idea whether it is or isn't, just a question.

 

Because if you go back to the announcement they made about the cover system that's exactly how they described it. It may not look that stupid in the final version but they will cue you where to stand to recieve cover bonuses.

 

And the system is flawed and lame.   It makes the game seem so linear and forced.   As I statd if you think WoW is easy, this game takes it to a new level.  

In WoW, let's say you are doing one of the Scarlet Onslaught quest, take the one where you need to go kill the prisoners.    You have to ind the prisoners in the cages first.   Then kill them.   The problem is you have to either fight your way through the defenders to get to the prisoners - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the castle grounds and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete the quest.   There are many ways to go about doing this and it is not linear at all.     From what I have seen of some of these SW:ToR quest they have no freedom what so ever.   The player is forced to go from point A to point B to point C and son and so forth as you do the quest in a very linear fashion and you cannot figure out a different means to do the quest because it it is programmed to be played a certain way - no way to deviate from the path at all.   I dunno about you, but even WoW doesn't hold your hand that much.

You're talking about two different things in your example.

You're saying the quests in SW: TOR are linear, but you don't compare the WoW quest to the SW: TOR quest. The WoW quest is this: Kill the prisoners. That's it. How is that freedom? Oh! You can choose how to kill the prisoners. Wow. Then you run back and turn it in, done.

With SW: TOR, you get to kill a bunch of mobs on your way to the next NPC in the quest. You can either fight your way through the defenders to get to the NPC - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the... spaceship... and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete your journey to the NPC. See, same level of "freedom". Both of the quests are linear - the WoW quest says "Kill 50 prisoners". The SW: TOR quest says, "Kill me or save me, I'm the Captain", and you get different results based on which choice you make.

So really, SW: TOR quests are worth two or three WoW quests.

No you're mssing the whole point.   Its not the end of the quest or the result, it is how you go about doing it.    Forget it.   Wouldn't matter how much I try to explain it.  I could even draw it out and you'd probably still not understand.   I will say this.  If this is the kind of game SW'ToR is going to be...you can have it.   I've played one to many "linear" MMORPG's and to be honest they are just not my kind of game.    SW:ToR is shaping up to be just that.
 

Well, this surprises you? Seriously, go wait for Earthrise or MO. From your sig I can guess you play EVE, or used to - that should be sandbox enough for you. At least in SW: TOR, there's a story, and that story has choices.

There is a story in EvE - it's the one I make for my own character by her actions in game.  If I wished to play a pre-determined story I'll play a single player RPG.   If that is what SW:ToR is basically going to be - I ain't paying a monthly fee to play it.   You can...have at it.
 

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Mazin

How do we know this isn't some sorta noobie tutorial area?

I have no idea whether it is or isn't, just a question.

 

Because if you go back to the announcement they made about the cover system that's exactly how they described it. It may not look that stupid in the final version but they will cue you where to stand to recieve cover bonuses.

 

And the system is flawed and lame.   It makes the game seem so linear and forced.   As I statd if you think WoW is easy, this game takes it to a new level.  

In WoW, let's say you are doing one of the Scarlet Onslaught quest, take the one where you need to go kill the prisoners.    You have to ind the prisoners in the cages first.   Then kill them.   The problem is you have to either fight your way through the defenders to get to the prisoners - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the castle grounds and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete the quest.   There are many ways to go about doing this and it is not linear at all.     From what I have seen of some of these SW:ToR quest they have no freedom what so ever.   The player is forced to go from point A to point B to point C and son and so forth as you do the quest in a very linear fashion and you cannot figure out a different means to do the quest because it it is programmed to be played a certain way - no way to deviate from the path at all.   I dunno about you, but even WoW doesn't hold your hand that much.

You're talking about two different things in your example.

You're saying the quests in SW: TOR are linear, but you don't compare the WoW quest to the SW: TOR quest. The WoW quest is this: Kill the prisoners. That's it. How is that freedom? Oh! You can choose how to kill the prisoners. Wow. Then you run back and turn it in, done.

With SW: TOR, you get to kill a bunch of mobs on your way to the next NPC in the quest. You can either fight your way through the defenders to get to the NPC - scorched earth method, just kill them all - or you can pick your way through the... spaceship... and take out only those defenders you really need to - to complete your journey to the NPC. See, same level of "freedom". Both of the quests are linear - the WoW quest says "Kill 50 prisoners". The SW: TOR quest says, "Kill me or save me, I'm the Captain", and you get different results based on which choice you make.

So really, SW: TOR quests are worth two or three WoW quests.

No you're mssing the whole point.   Its not the end of the quest or the result, it is how you go about doing it.    Forget it.   Wouldn't matter how much I try to explain it.  I could even draw it out and you'd probably still not understand.   I will say this.  If this is the kind of game SW'ToR is going to be...you can have it.   I've played one to many "linear" MMORPG's and to be honest they are just not my kind of game.    SW:ToR is shaping up to be just that.
 

You compared SW:TOR quest to WoW quest, Comnitus countered by saying that they're more or less the same as WoW quest in the aspect you COULD complete them in 2 differnt ways (Atleast from our understanding of the quest so far). But if you wish to talk about linear, you cant even stray from the space lanes in EVE online, which I find to be pretty linear (LINES!!!).