Originally posted by thorwood

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by elderotter

I solo for the challenge of soloing what others group.  I do not care about raids or raid gear.  I am happy - isn't that part of the fun - being happy?  If games no longer make you happy find another hobby.

 

I"m not challenging your happiness, but I keep hearing soloer's say, I solo for the challenge of soloing.  Well what exactly is challenging for you?  Through various mathmatical calculations you take on mobs your level that you can beat with ease. You are taken through the game by a tour-guide of quests to level on that color code your ability to complete them solo. So you follow this paint by numbers approach to taking on mobs and quests until you hit max level. I fail to see any challenge in that.

So if I'm wrong, please tell me EXACTLY what you do as a solo player that marks a challenge.

Actually, solo players do the same encounters and quests that many people do in a group. It  is certainly more challenging for the solo player.  I find these same encounters trivial in a group.  Most groups just charge in and kill everything in sight.  The solo player has to use more finesse.

Flawed comparison.

You are comparing the hardest Mob you can solo, to something the group can do easily.

For a true comparison you must compare the hardest mob  you can solo, to the hardest mob a group can do.

OR, you must compare you slaughtering easy mobs, to the group slaughtering easy mobs.

Originally posted by thexrated

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by DubaVampe

 

If you make solo content as effective and rewarding as group-based content, nobody will group up.

 

Meaning, you will be taking a major social aspect out of MMORPGs. Nobody will be working together anymore, it'll just be a bunch of people working against/apart from eachother to meet their own needs. Now, I'm not saying that doesn't happen in raids now, where people do them only for their own gear; but honestly.

 

 

Now that is so ILLOGICAL.

If people like grouping more than solo, then they will CHOOSE group-based content over solo-content if the reward is the same. So providing solo content (once again, same reward level) won't discourage grouping.

If people like soloing more than grouping, then there is no point forcing them to group.

Either way, solo content should be provided.

 

Saying that nobody would group is indeed wrong, but the core of the argument holds true. Games often need to steer people towards content and to socialize. If there are no incentives to group, most people won't. Even worse, like in WoW, it is actually less effective do quests with a friend than it is to solo. So you end up soloing. That is just bad game design. 

There is nothing wrong rewarding group more more because it improves the social aspect of MMO. Solo content can still be there just less effective.

Well, if group & soloing is equal in efficiency, and people choose to solo, then people don't actually like to group, do they? If most people won't group without a big incentive, why steer them towards grouping? Just let them solo.

The most fair way is to level the playing field. Grouping/soloing yield the SAME reward and people would have NOTHING to complain about. No matter what style they choose, they advance at the same rate.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, if group & soloing is equal in efficiency, and people choose to solo, then people don't actually like to group, do they? If most people won't group without a big incentive, why steer them towards grouping? Just let them solo.

I think you nailed it right there. If most players would rather solo, maybe grouping isn't as fun as folks are making it out to be. If grouping was really the best thing about an MMO, it it was the one feature that set it apart from all other types of games, it wouldn't need to be forced or even encouraged. People would just do it because it was fun.

Originally posted by DubaVampe

Originally posted by local93bc

I think 95% of the population is a twit.

Thats my generic anser to everything.

 

Brilliant, now go back to living under that bridge you just love so much.

Thats why they invented Twiter.

Originally posted by bonobotheory

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, if group & soloing is equal in efficiency, and people choose to solo, then people don't actually like to group, do they? If most people won't group without a big incentive, why steer them towards grouping? Just let them solo.

I think you nailed it right there. If most players would rather solo, maybe grouping isn't as fun as folks are making it out to be. If grouping was really the best thing about an MMO, it it was the one feature that set it apart from all other types of games, it wouldn't need to be forced or even encouraged. People would just do it because it was fun.

As state in another thread, quest based leveling games are not  ideal for grouping. Mass spawns and camps of mob are. Take for example Aion. For the first 15 levels I have not seen one dungeon or mass camp of mobs. There are quests which carrry you from lvl 1-15 in a straight line. Why would anyone want to group unless they want to blow through the quests. In which grouping becomes more of a mission for leveling. Questing in groups tends to be less than ideal because how often is every member on the same step? The xp gain from killing same level single mob divided by 6-8 players goes down when questing.  So without camps of spawns in one form or another (campspot / raid dungeon)  It slows down xp gain.

In games like Warhammer, grouping is actually counterproductive to character gains. Soling in a scenarior reaps you better reknown and xp rewards. Soloing a PQ gives you quicker influence gain to get items.

It's not a question if leveling is equal. It's why would someone want to group when it provides a penalty to your progress.

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by bonobotheory

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, if group & soloing is equal in efficiency, and people choose to solo, then people don't actually like to group, do they? If most people won't group without a big incentive, why steer them towards grouping? Just let them solo.

I think you nailed it right there. If most players would rather solo, maybe grouping isn't as fun as folks are making it out to be. If grouping was really the best thing about an MMO, it it was the one feature that set it apart from all other types of games, it wouldn't need to be forced or even encouraged. People would just do it because it was fun.

 

As state in another thread, quest based leveling games are not  ideal for grouping. Mass spawns and camps of mob are. Take for example Aion. For the first 15 levels I have not seen one dungeon or mass camp of mobs. There are quests which carrry you from lvl 1-15 in a straight line. Why would anyone want to group unless they want to blow through the quests. In which grouping becomes more of a mission for leveling. Questing in groups tends to be less than ideal because how often is every member on the same step? The xp gain from killing same level single mob divided by 6-8 players goes down when questing.  So without camps of spawns in one form or another (campspot / raid dungeon)  It slows down xp gain.

In games like Warhammer, grouping is actually counterproductive to character gains. Soling in a scenarior reaps you better reknown and xp rewards. Soloing a PQ gives you quicker influence gain to get items.

It's not a question if leveling is equal. It's why would someone want to group when it provides a penalty to your progress.

Yes, you get less XP and influence in WAR if you're part of a group. However, you still get more xp bcause multiple people are killing multiple mobs. So by the time it takes a solo player to kill one mob and get 100 inf, a group of 5 people you'll still get much more. Combine that with the fact that if you're a solo player and another player hits your mob, you split the influence based on damage done, solo influence farming may not be as lucrative as you make it out to be.

As far as grouping in scenarios, what's the point? You're already grouped up with 10 or so other people and you all share the same objective.

Either way, using WAR as an example is pointless because, quite frankly, the game is bad and I would never consider it to be a staple of the genre.

Most MMOs give you an incentive to group in a form of completing the content faster and easier. That alone offsets any XP penalties there are. Moreover, very often games offer content that is exclusive to grouping. Mostly it's the content with better rewards and benefits. On the other hand, I have yet to see content that is exclusive to the solo game style. Maybe fishing in WoW?

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by bonobotheory

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, if group & soloing is equal in efficiency, and people choose to solo, then people don't actually like to group, do they? If most people won't group without a big incentive, why steer them towards grouping? Just let them solo.

I think you nailed it right there. If most players would rather solo, maybe grouping isn't as fun as folks are making it out to be. If grouping was really the best thing about an MMO, it it was the one feature that set it apart from all other types of games, it wouldn't need to be forced or even encouraged. People would just do it because it was fun.

 

As state in another thread, quest based leveling games are not  ideal for grouping. Mass spawns and camps of mob are. Take for example Aion. For the first 15 levels I have not seen one dungeon or mass camp of mobs. There are quests which carrry you from lvl 1-15 in a straight line. Why would anyone want to group unless they want to blow through the quests. In which grouping becomes more of a mission for leveling. Questing in groups tends to be less than ideal because how often is every member on the same step? The xp gain from killing same level single mob divided by 6-8 players goes down when questing.  So without camps of spawns in one form or another (campspot / raid dungeon)  It slows down xp gain.

In games like Warhammer, grouping is actually counterproductive to character gains. Soling in a scenarior reaps you better reknown and xp rewards. Soloing a PQ gives you quicker influence gain to get items.

It's not a question if leveling is equal. It's why would someone want to group when it provides a penalty to your progress.

I still haven't read a good reason as to why they "should" group at all.  If grouping is so much fun, why does it need to be encouraged? Why should players be forced or encouraged, through the design of the game, to group instead of soloing?

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by bonobotheory

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, if group & soloing is equal in efficiency, and people choose to solo, then people don't actually like to group, do they? If most people won't group without a big incentive, why steer them towards grouping? Just let them solo.

I think you nailed it right there. If most players would rather solo, maybe grouping isn't as fun as folks are making it out to be. If grouping was really the best thing about an MMO, it it was the one feature that set it apart from all other types of games, it wouldn't need to be forced or even encouraged. People would just do it because it was fun.

 

As state in another thread, quest based leveling games are not  ideal for grouping. Mass spawns and camps of mob are. Take for example Aion. For the first 15 levels I have not seen one dungeon or mass camp of mobs. There are quests which carrry you from lvl 1-15 in a straight line. Why would anyone want to group unless they want to blow through the quests. In which grouping becomes more of a mission for leveling. Questing in groups tends to be less than ideal because how often is every member on the same step? The xp gain from killing same level single mob divided by 6-8 players goes down when questing.  So without camps of spawns in one form or another (campspot / raid dungeon)  It slows down xp gain.

In games like Warhammer, grouping is actually counterproductive to character gains. Soling in a scenarior reaps you better reknown and xp rewards. Soloing a PQ gives you quicker influence gain to get items.

It's not a question if leveling is equal. It's why would someone want to group when it provides a penalty to your progress.

I disagree with the generalisation that taking on multiple mobs at the same time is the best or only way for group content.

Everquest was probably one of the best grouping games around.  Mass camps of mobs would wipe a group in seconds.  The art was in fighting as few mobs at a time as possible. Each mob really hurt if it hit you.  The experience was better than soloing because you got better experience for killing tough mobs and groups killed a lot quicker than solo players.  In some areas, 2 trash mobs could easily kill your tank, despite having a full group to back them up.

The ability to charge into a bunch of mobs and kill them all is something I first saw in WoW.   Little strategy was needed in WoW because your tanks can charge straight into most encounters without dying.

Groups usually get faster experience.  They kill mobs faster and because the mobs die faster and do less damage, there is less downtime for recovery.  Even without an experience boost, groups will get experience quicker in most games.  In games that I played like WoW, CoH/CoV and Everquest group experience was faster than solo.  I am aware that some of these games have experience bonuses when grouping, however, the experience would still have been better in the groups without the bonus.

Just curious, but why is Warhammer and its Public Quest system somehow singled out?  Most PQs aren't possible solo unless another solo person comes along and helps... oh wait, suddenly you're not doing something solo to accomplish the goal.  And while yes, some classes can get more PQs done solo, other classes can't.

Edit:

Actually, I just thought about it some more.  Is it the fact that you can do PQs "solo", as in not in a group, that causes the problem.  I wonder how many people merely want to be in a "group", as in the term, versus simply trying to accomplish a goal with another person.  I see no difference in the two but the fact that the Warhammer PQ argument comes up a lot seems to imply some people do a see a difference.

Originally posted by Nessin

Just curious, but why is Warhammer and its Public Quest system somehow singled out?  Most PQs aren't possible solo unless another solo person comes along and helps... oh wait, suddenly you're not doing something solo to accomplish the goal.  And while yes, some classes can get more PQs done solo, other classes can't.

 

Edit:

Actually, I just thought about it some more.  Is it the fact that you can do PQs "solo", as in not in a group, that causes the problem.  I wonder how many people merely want to be in a "group", as in the term, versus simply trying to accomplish a goal with another person.  I see no difference in the two but the fact that the Warhammer PQ argument comes up a lot seems to imply some people do a see a difference.

The good thing about PQ is any class can just join and participate. There's no need to spam the chat channel just looking for that 1 more tank or healer before you can start...

Why is everyone crying about Solo stuff

Because some people are very new to MMORPG.

Originally posted by heartless

Yes, you get less XP and influence in WAR if you're part of a group. However, you still get more xp bcause multiple people are killing multiple mobs. So by the time it takes a solo player to kill one mob and get 100 inf, a group of 5 people you'll still get much more. Combine that with the fact that if you're a solo player and another player hits your mob, you split the influence based on damage done, solo influence farming may not be as lucrative as you make it out to be.

When it comes to xp yes, if you have a premade group instead of searching for one, you will get more xp. But you have to have groups available and not looking for them Also, a solo person questing can obtain xp pretty damn quick in comparison.  When it comes to Influence solo vs. group Solo wins out.  That 100 influence in a group of 5 will drop so far down into the teens that it just doesn't compare. Spawns are not quick enough to keep up with the drop in influence gain. If you can complete all stages of the PQ then the bonus might, and I mean MIGHT level it off, but a solo person can complete the first stage and get the bonus every time too.

As far as grouping in scenarios, what's the point? You're already grouped up with 10 or so other people and you all share the same objective.

The only point was solo xp and reknown gain is better by yourself in a scenario than actually being part of a group. But since you ask, as a secondary point, soloer's do not receive group buffs, heals, damage shells, or damage adds which make it harder to be succesful against opponents who do group. So soloer's who are selfishly  looking out for their xp/reknown gain only are screwing over the other realmmates by nullifying various group abilities which might help them win the scenarios.

Either way, using WAR as an example is pointless because, quite frankly, the game is bad and I would never consider it to be a staple of the genre.

Yes War is a bad game I will not argue that unless a revamp of WaR can fix it. I won't hold my breath.

Most MMOs give you an incentive to group in a form of completing the content faster and easier. That alone offsets any XP penalties there are. Moreover, very often games offer content that is exclusive to grouping. Mostly it's the content with better rewards and benefits. On the other hand, I have yet to see content that is exclusive to the solo game style. Maybe fishing in WoW?

MMO's don't give the incenetive of completing content faster, but when people group up to tackle a various objective in real life or an mmo they are going to finish those tasks faster. That's not by design, that's just how teamwork goes.  There are however,  also instances when groups become too large and hinder process as well. The entire quest based leveling system is better for soloer's.  Regardless I don't have a problem with solo content,, I only have a problem with soloer's who A) dont want groupers to have a game that caters to them or B) want ALL the content to be soloable, because in reality it stops group content from mattering.  As for rewards of loot/gear, I think everyone knows by now I'm not a fan of lootwhoring games. I prefer player crafted.

The concept of the Public Quest is an interesting one. Our poor darling soloers can find themselves suddenly in a group without having to communicate with anyone. How do the handle the stress and anxiety of it all? Hopefully they come to realise that this is what a MMO is about, not playing with your self. But maybe I am being too optimistic abut this ideal introduction to a bit of grouping?

I think, soloers and players that like to group are fundamentaly very diffrent people.

I could sit here and name a few, but i think you all can figuer out what im talking about.

The pointe is......

One type mostly dosen't like the other. and it go's both ways

The frustration you see from group oriented players comes from the fact that mmo's used to cater to group oriented people.

Companies have discovered that they are a small minority in the world. about 5% of players.

The other 95% are mindless brainwashed twits. Lol well not all of them but most.

Id rather spend my time on a forum then play todays flock of mmo's.

Originally posted by Greenie

MMO's don't give the incenetive of completing content faster, but when people group up to tackle a various objective in real life or an mmo they are going to finish those tasks faster. That's not by design, that's just how teamwork goes.  There are however,  also instances when groups become too large and hinder process as well. The entire quest based leveling system is better for soloer's.  Regardless I don't have a problem with solo content,, I only have a problem with soloer's who A) dont want groupers to have a game that caters to them or B) want ALL the content to be soloable, because in reality it stops group content from mattering.  As for rewards of loot/gear, I think everyone knows by now I'm not a fan of lootwhoring games. I prefer player crafted.

 

Finishing the task faster and moving on to better content is incentive in itself. Especially in games like WoW which constantly dangle a carrot in front of your nose. Remember the first goal is to reach max level and getting there faster is a hell of an incentive. The other incentive is obviously all the content made specifically for your play style.

I haven't read any comment from soloers on these numerous, yet similar topics, who wouldn't want groupers to have their own game. Hell, you guys have a whole bunch of them. Games that cater to your own play style. Yes, some of those games offer solo game play also but the rewards are sub par at best.

All content being soloable would probably stop PUGs from forming. PUGs, being the worst part of MMOs, if you ask most MMO gamers, are no big loss anyway. However, you can always have a good time breezing through the content with your friends. Or, if the content is scalable, have a good time being challenged. While I will have a good time soloing and being challenged. See, that's the beauty of properly made scalable content. Both play styles are equally fun and viable and every one wins.

As for this whole group vs solo xp, me and two of my friends leveled 3 characters to 60 in WoW, while grouping with each other. It was much faster than solo. While solo was more convenient, because I could move at my own pace and not wait for anyone, as a group we would finish quests much quicker. Since WoW gives a huge amount of XP per quest turn in, the fact that we're gaining less xp for kills made no difference. Since we would be done with numerous quests much faster than any solo player of the same level. Not to mention that since we were moving as a group, there was a lot less chance of us dying.

What I am trying to say is that in a proper group consisting of people who know what they are doing, grouping is not only fun but beneficial. Now if you're talking about PUGs then I agree with you. Poking yourself in the eye with a rusty nail is more productive than PUGing to level up.