Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by CactusmanX

And I don't mean why do you group but what should be the reason to group in an MMO, other than social. 

 

No one needs to be in a group to socialize. You can chat in the guild channel, or global channel, and socialize all day long without grouping.

If a single person can do it, who cares if a group makes it easier? That sounds like a game where it's pointless to group, IMO.

I don't think grouping should be purely "social".

I like grouping for the EXACT reasons you said you didn't like grouping, the combat mechanics.

Also, in a game where grouping is NECESSARY, not social it changes the entire community. If you're an asshat then people dont' want you in the group, and you actually suffer  for that. With grouping being purely an optional social thing, who cares if people don't want you in a group because you're an asshat? You don't need them anyway.

Your post strikes me as basically, I like solo games, don't want to be required to group, here's some dumb "social" thing the groupers can do so they will shut up and let me solo the game. As a grouper, I'd have zero interest in this game.

I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

People arguing about soloability in an mmo or should an mmo be solo friendly existed before WoW.   There used to be debates about it all the time in EQ.  Especially considering how viable some classes could solo some mobs such as a wizard or bard compared to trying to do anything like that as a cleric.

Can I have my five bucks now?

Originally posted by Eronakis

I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

Did you just play the "veteran" card? You went there, didn't ya?

Don't be ignorant. I'm pro-solo and my MMO experience dates back to 1997 with the launch of UO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

God forbid that the gaming industry should reflect the diversity of it's consumer base.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Eronakis

I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

Did you just play the "veteran" card? You went there, didn't ya?

Don't be ignorant. I'm pro-solo and my MMO experience dates back to 1997 with the launch of UO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

Pro solo? Are you sure? Wow, because I ENJOY grouping over solo play that makes me a no life hardcore player? Please, you have no right to judge, you dont be ignorant!

Originally posted by Vrazule

God forbid that the gaming industry should reflect the diversity of it's consumer base.

They do. They make games for groupers, and games for solo players that like to group once in a while for shits and giggles.

The problem is they dont' make many games for groupers, like EQ and DAoC.

Even WAR turned into crap because it was a solo game.

You solo quests, and then you jump into a scenario, and play that solo as well with others running around on your team.

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Eronakis

I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

Did you just play the "veteran" card? You went there, didn't ya?

Don't be ignorant. I'm pro-solo and my MMO experience dates back to 1997 with the launch of UO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

Pro solo? Are you sure? Wow, because I ENJOY grouping over solo play that makes me a no life hardcore player? Please, you have no right to judge, you dont be ignorant!

I was describing my situation/history, not yours.

If you inferred a negative from my post, it's purely in your own mind buddy. Try not to be so touchy.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by elderotter

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Every thread goes the same way. The forced grouping crowd will always argue the same points, despite how many times their falsehoods are corrected.

- Interaction and grouping are not the same thing

- A person can contribute to the game community in forms other than DKP and knowing their role.

- Solo play does not mean anti-social play.

 

Read it. Write it down if you have to. But, for fuck's sake, stop bringing the same tired and completely false arguments out every damn thread.

 

 

 

 I agree with all your points, and assert a few of my own.

Solo players will not acknowledge that grouping for no reason is not fun, while at the same time admitting that grouping is not necessary for socialization.

Ok, if you don't need to group to socialize, which we both agree on, then why do you need to group?

If there is absolutely no need to group, then what's supposed to make it fun?'

Again, we've already stated it's NOT socialization, because grouping is not required to socialize.

The reason grouping is fun, is because it requires team work to over come a challenge.

A challenge that can be avoided, is not a real challenge.

When you add in alternatives to group challenges that require team work, you have removed the challenge for the group player, and therefore the fun, the REASON for grouping.

Why would you group if there is no reason for it?

The reason cannot be socializing, because we have already agreed this can be done playing solo.

I agree with your points but will say this: most groups I have been in, with the exception of guild- only groups(we know each other) do not focus on team-work.  Forced grouping, in my opinion, only results in a large number of what I call "Legions of Doom" usually resulting more in penalties for dying and repairing gear than rewards.  When I group I want people who understand their role in a group, not a bunch of people teamed up who have not worked together and are in it for their own rewards not the rewards for the other members of the group.  Basically, a lot of groups I have been in(non-guild variety) were just a group of solo people who happened to be in a team.You have DPS'rs trying to tank or running out into an area and aggroing everything, which results in the healer trying to heal everyone at once - not good.  You have healers who either do not understand their role or who have run out of mana trying to heal dps'rs and letting the tank die.  You have tanks who think they should be DPS'rs and nott getting the aggro on themselves.  In my experience the main thing forced grouping does is increase the number of Cluster-F*cks.

 

What game, and what level?

IN EQ and DAoC, by level 20 this didn't hardly exist. Since you needed to group, people did, and they learned how to do it.

Most pick up groups in those games people will fall into their roles by level 20 with hardly any discussion, and do them fairly well, if not perfectly.

Many games, CoX,  Shadowbane,  LOTRO, WoW, EQ2 and others I have played.  The level has little to do with it - I have seen legion of doom groups well past lvl 30.  Most pick up groups I have seen have had little team work involved and experienced a large drop out rate by players who finished their quest or level before the rest of the group was done, regardless of level.

As I said Guild-centered groups are not as bad.

Originally posted by zethcarn

To answer your question,  there hasn't been enough incentive to group yet.   I love grouping but if I'm not going to be rewarded for taking the time to put a good group of 4-6 players together then why do it?  Especially if you take an instance for example.  You get good rewards but then you level up a little more and the rewards become obsolete.

For grouping to make a comeback in MMOs there needs to be a big incentive to do so.

In Everquest leveling wasn't so fast, you actually used the gear for quite sometime so grouping was attractive. Also in Everquest is some ways was similar to what the OP is requesting. People soloed but it was much more effcient in groups and you could get better gear for grouping. MMOs have de-evolved in some aspects, even Everquest has. Don't play Everquest of today it is ruined. The winning formula that made the original game the best selling MMO of it's time is no longer there. The developers just tried to copy the newer games, so what you are left with is a really old patched together mess that tries to be WoW.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by zethcarn

To answer your question,  there hasn't been enough incentive to group yet.   I love grouping but if I'm not going to be rewarded for taking the time to put a good group of 4-6 players together then why do it?  Especially if you take an instance for example.  You get good rewards but then you level up a little more and the rewards become obsolete.

For grouping to make a comeback in MMOs there needs to be a big incentive to do so.

 

In Everquest leveling wasn't so fast, you actually used the gear for quite sometime so grouping was attractive. Also in Everquest is some ways was similar to what the OP is requesting. People soloed but it was much more effcient in groups and you could get better gear for grouping. MMOs have de-evolved in some aspects, even Everquest has. Don't play Everquest of today it is ruined. The winning formula that made the original game the best selling MMO of it's time is no longer there. The developers just tried to copy the newer games, so what you are left with is a really old patched together mess that tries to be WoW.

I agree with most of your post.  I think attempts to make another WoW or even a Wow killer are ruining MMO's.  However I do not think that the term de-evolved is correct.  Without a solo capability Games would be leaving unaddressed a sizable community which would be unwise financially.  It sounds like you are trying to say that no solo content should ever be in any game.  Thus leaving people who enjoy solo content out in the dark.  The wise developer tries to make a game  that addresses both camps, knowing that neither camp will be wholly pleased,  that is called compromise.     You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.  Group only and solo only games would never get as many people sub'ing to them as a game that offers both.  The developer wants as many subs as possible, leaving one or the other group out of the game would limit the number of subs.  Just my opinion.  Myself, i have no problem grouping, especially with guild mates, when I have to but I like the ability to do as much as I can, through my skills and knowledge of my character's class as possible.  I may be wrong but I think there are many like me, we group when we have to and tend to group with guildmates where possible over random pick-up groups.  At least with guildmates you have some knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of each member and can come to an agreement of when to schedule the group.

With random pick-up groups much time is spent on forming and then rebuilding the group, as people drop out for whatever reason, and who knows who is going to be in the group.  I know that much has been said about in group only games you can blacklist certain players but that doesn't help them learn to be a better team player.  I can argue that solo play does because you learn your character intimately - without doing so you will fail at solo play much less team play.

  Solo play can be an asset to grouping in that it helps a player learn their class's strengths and weaknesses.  I know that the group- only side will disagree with this, but I have yet to see an argument from them that is not is not selfish.  At least I argue that a balance is better, I never say that solo only games are better, just that some solo content should be in the game.  Without it you will have less people in the game and the groupers will still have the same problem of not being able to find people to group with... not because people are soloing but because there is a smaller population of players in the game.  I have found group only games to be both frustrating and boring.  As always - just my opinion.

Originally posted by elderotter

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by zethcarn

To answer your question,  there hasn't been enough incentive to group yet.   I love grouping but if I'm not going to be rewarded for taking the time to put a good group of 4-6 players together then why do it?  Especially if you take an instance for example.  You get good rewards but then you level up a little more and the rewards become obsolete.

For grouping to make a comeback in MMOs there needs to be a big incentive to do so.

 

In Everquest leveling wasn't so fast, you actually used the gear for quite sometime so grouping was attractive. Also in Everquest is some ways was similar to what the OP is requesting. People soloed but it was much more effcient in groups and you could get better gear for grouping. MMOs have de-evolved in some aspects, even Everquest has. Don't play Everquest of today it is ruined. The winning formula that made the original game the best selling MMO of it's time is no longer there. The developers just tried to copy the newer games, so what you are left with is a really old patched together mess that tries to be WoW.

I agree with most of your post.  I think attempts to make another WoW or even a Wow killer are ruining MMO's.  However I do not think that the term de-evolved is correct.  Without a solo capability Games would be leaving unaddressed a sizable community which would be unwise financially.  It sounds like you are trying to say that no solo content should ever be in any game.  Thus leaving people who enjoy solo content out in the dark.  The wise developer tries to make a game  that addresses both camps, knowing that neither camp will be wholly pleased,  that is called compromise.     You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.  Group only and solo only games would never get as many people sub'ing to them as a game that offers both.  The developer wants as many subs as possible, leaving one or the other group out of the game would limit the number of subs.  Just my opinion.  Myself, i have no problem grouping, especially with guild mates, when I have to but I like the ability to do as much as I can, through my skills and knowledge of my character's class as possible.  I may be wrong but I think there are many like me, we group when we have to and tend to group with guildmates where possible over random pick-up groups.  At least with guildmates you have some knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of each member and can come to an agreement of when to schedule the group.

With random pick-up groups much time is spent on forming and then rebuilding the group, as people drop out for whatever reason, and who knows who is going to be in the group.  I know that much has been said about in group only games you can blacklist certain players but that doesn't help them learn to be a better team player.  I can argue that solo play does because you learn your character intimately - without doing so you will fail at solo play much less team play.

  Solo play can be an asset to grouping in that it helps a player learn their class's strengths and weaknesses.  I know that the group- only side will disagree with this, but I have yet to see an argument from them that is not is not selfish.  At least I argue that a balance is better, I never say that solo only games are better, just that some solo content should be in the game.  Without it you will have less people in the game and the groupers will still have the same problem of not being able to find people to group with... not because people are soloing but because there is a smaller population of players in the game.  I have found group only games to be both frustrating and boring.  As always - just my opinion.

I stated in my post that you could solo in Everquest just wasn't as beneficial as grouping. I do not think that solo should be removed from MMOs. On the contrary I believe solo should be part of a MMO, not at all times can you find a group. I do believe however that grouping should reward you for coming together with others. With grouping being more attractive as an option, I believe it makes it much easier for everyone to find a group.

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by elderotter

Originally posted by qombi

Originally posted by zethcarn

To answer your question,  there hasn't been enough incentive to group yet.   I love grouping but if I'm not going to be rewarded for taking the time to put a good group of 4-6 players together then why do it?  Especially if you take an instance for example.  You get good rewards but then you level up a little more and the rewards become obsolete.

For grouping to make a comeback in MMOs there needs to be a big incentive to do so.

 

In Everquest leveling wasn't so fast, you actually used the gear for quite sometime so grouping was attractive. Also in Everquest is some ways was similar to what the OP is requesting. People soloed but it was much more effcient in groups and you could get better gear for grouping. MMOs have de-evolved in some aspects, even Everquest has. Don't play Everquest of today it is ruined. The winning formula that made the original game the best selling MMO of it's time is no longer there. The developers just tried to copy the newer games, so what you are left with is a really old patched together mess that tries to be WoW.

I agree with most of your post.  I think attempts to make another WoW or even a Wow killer are ruining MMO's.  However I do not think that the term de-evolved is correct.  Without a solo capability Games would be leaving unaddressed a sizable community which would be unwise financially.  It sounds like you are trying to say that no solo content should ever be in any game.  Thus leaving people who enjoy solo content out in the dark.  The wise developer tries to make a game  that addresses both camps, knowing that neither camp will be wholly pleased,  that is called compromise.     You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.  Group only and solo only games would never get as many people sub'ing to them as a game that offers both.  The developer wants as many subs as possible, leaving one or the other group out of the game would limit the number of subs.  Just my opinion.  Myself, i have no problem grouping, especially with guild mates, when I have to but I like the ability to do as much as I can, through my skills and knowledge of my character's class as possible.  I may be wrong but I think there are many like me, we group when we have to and tend to group with guildmates where possible over random pick-up groups.  At least with guildmates you have some knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of each member and can come to an agreement of when to schedule the group.

With random pick-up groups much time is spent on forming and then rebuilding the group, as people drop out for whatever reason, and who knows who is going to be in the group.  I know that much has been said about in group only games you can blacklist certain players but that doesn't help them learn to be a better team player.  I can argue that solo play does because you learn your character intimately - without doing so you will fail at solo play much less team play.

  Solo play can be an asset to grouping in that it helps a player learn their class's strengths and weaknesses.  I know that the group- only side will disagree with this, but I have yet to see an argument from them that is not is not selfish.  At least I argue that a balance is better, I never say that solo only games are better, just that some solo content should be in the game.  Without it you will have less people in the game and the groupers will still have the same problem of not being able to find people to group with... not because people are soloing but because there is a smaller population of players in the game.  I have found group only games to be both frustrating and boring.  As always - just my opinion.

 

I stated in my post that you could solo in Everquest just wasn't as beneficial as grouping. I do not think that solo should be removed from MMOs. On the contrary I believe solo should be part of a MMO, not at all times can you find a group. I do believe however that grouping should reward you for coming together with others. With grouping being more attractive as an option, I believe it makes it much easier for everyone to find a group.

It would have to be a major reward to benefit you  - since most of my experience in non-guild groups is that being in a group is detrimental to my enjoyment of the game - mostly due to the non team attitude of most of those who do random groups.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Eronakis

I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

Did you just play the "veteran" card? You went there, didn't ya?

Don't be ignorant. I'm pro-solo and my MMO experience dates back to 1997 with the launch of UO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

Yours as well as my priorities have changed but what is completly ignorant and selfish is assuming that since ours has changed, that means everyones has changed. But it seems that the solist is about selfishness so I am not surprised. There are countless others who took our spot with a lots of hours to devote to a game. They have no idea what games like UO, EQ, FFXI were like in their heyday.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Eronakis

I think your one the very few on here who comprehends whats going on here. The people who you argue with (the majority), are the new crowd to mmos. The ones played WoW first. They dont understand the grouping. I bet ya 5 bucks that if wow never went mainstream and it never had those colossal subcriber base, we wouldnt have this arguement on this forum right now.

Did you just play the "veteran" card? You went there, didn't ya?

Don't be ignorant. I'm pro-solo and my MMO experience dates back to 1997 with the launch of UO, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

 

Yours as well as my priorities have changed but what is completly ignorant and selfish is assuming that since ours has changed, that means everyones has changed. But it seems that the solist is about selfishness so I am not surprised. There are countless others who took our spot with a lots of hours to devote to a game. They have no idea what games like UO, EQ, FFXI were like in their heyday.

Soloing is about selfishness just as much as random grouping is.  Which is to say I do not agree.  To me soloing is a challenge, random grouping is also a challenge - how long can I stay in the group before the petty BS drives me back to soloing.

I 100% agree to the whole "needs more twitch right there" argument. I've been wanting this for ages and I'm not the only one. A lot of people have been throwing the idea of twitch based mmo's. Closes we have had was...Tabula Rasa? And then we have Huxley which is in the beta atm.

But on the grouping - Yes, I agree. Grouping should make things easier and more fun and should by no means be mandatory and forced. Large groups should only be enforced in pvp events, when your guild/faction needs people to defend/attack.

Originally posted by elderotter

Soloing is about selfishness just as much as random grouping is.  Which is to say I do not agree.  To me soloing is a challenge, random grouping is also a challenge - how long can I stay in the group before the petty BS drives me back to soloing.

Ahh but your main problem is your grouping with soloists, who only care about themselves. Thats why PUG groups in solo friendly games are dangerous.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by elderotter

Soloing is about selfishness just as much as random grouping is.  Which is to say I do not agree.  To me soloing is a challenge, random grouping is also a challenge - how long can I stay in the group before the petty BS drives me back to soloing.

 

Ahh but your main problem is your grouping with soloists, who only care about themselves. Thats why PUG groups in solo friendly games are dangerous.

Actually I learned long ago to group with guild mates, especially those who use TS or vent.  Which is why - in several of my posts - I made sure to differentiate between random and guild groups.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

<snip>

I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

A-freaking-men, my brother.

I loved EQ back in the day (my first MMO...started just after the release of Kunark)...forced grouping and the frustration that could come with LFG for long periods of time sometimes and all.  I also enjoyed soloing as much as I could because it gave me confidence and a clear sense of personal accomplishment.  However, back then, players were much more disciplined and understood their roles better and didn't (in general) behave like utter morons in groups (both because they wanted to participate properly and because there were social incentives not to).

Fast forward to now.  In my experience, too often PUGs (and by extension, Guilds) are an excercise in a different kind of frustration because people just don't know how to monitor their own behavior or how to stay within the boundaries of their roles (yes, possibly because of the surge in solo-ability of games).  I don't need or want to spend my time dealing with that.

So, I continue to enjoy soloing over grouping (in whatever MMO I may be playing) because my time is more important to me and because now my wife or my kids (or work or life or...) might want or need my attention at any moment and out of courtesy to others, I don't get into groups.  I don't expect to get the rewards that I would if I was grouping more difficult content and I can accept that freely.

But don't tell me that I should go play Oblivion because I want to solo.  Don't tell me that I have to group or I simply won't play your game.  Don't tell me that I'm anti-social because I don't look to an online game to form some sort of social status in my own head.  Don't tell me that I am a cancer on the MMO scene because I choose to play the same game that you do, but do it in a way that is different from you.  I'm not (and neither are any "pro-soloers" that I've seen) saying anything whatsoever bad about "pro-groupers," I'm just expecting to be treated in a way that doesn't arbitrarily ostracize me from the community by participating in my chosen hobby in a way that suits me and my life.

Originally posted by Rigorous

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

<snip>

I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. There is a group of gamers (including myself) who have experienced the grouping heyday and come out the other side of it into a more relaxed, casual perspective to reflect our changing priorities in life.

 

A-freaking-men, my brother.

I loved EQ back in the day (my first MMO...started just after the release of Kunark)...forced grouping and the frustration that could come with LFG for long periods of time sometimes and all.  I also enjoyed soloing as much as I could because it gave me confidence and a clear sense of personal accomplishment.  However, back then, players were much more disciplined and understood their roles better and didn't (in general) behave like utter morons in groups (both because they wanted to participate properly and because there were social incentives not to).

Fast forward to now.  In my experience, too often PUGs (and by extension, Guilds) are an excercise in a different kind of frustration because people just don't know how to monitor their own behavior or how to stay within the boundaries of their roles (yes, possibly because of the surge in solo-ability of games).  I don't need or want to spend my time dealing with that.

So, I continue to enjoy soloing over grouping (in whatever MMO I may be playing) because my time is more important to me and because now my wife or my kids (or work or life or...) might want or need my attention at any moment and out of courtesy to others, I don't get into groups.  I don't expect to get the rewards that I would if I was grouping more difficult content and I can accept that freely.

But don't tell me that I should go play Oblivion because I want to solo.  Don't tell me that I have to group or I simply won't play your game.  Don't tell me that I'm anti-social because I don't look to an online game to form some sort of social status in my own head.  Don't tell me that I am a cancer on the MMO scene because I choose to play the same game that you do, but do it in a way that is different from you.  I'm not (and neither are any "pro-soloers" that I've seen) saying anything whatsoever bad about "pro-groupers," I'm just expecting to be treated in a way that doesn't arbitrarily ostracize me from the community by participating in my chosen hobby in a way that suits me and my life.

I agree, and want to add "nor do I want to be blamed because no one will group with You".

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

This is the cancer that is killing MMO's

Go play a single player game if you want to do everything on your own!!

 

No, the cancer is the bald assertion that MMOs are all about grouping which is simply not true.  They never have been, they never will be.  It is a complete and total lie that grouping is the only "correct" way to play an MMO.

Go play a game like Call of Duty if you want to be in a team.  Leave the rest of us alone.

 

You obviously haven't been around in this genre for a while. I haven't played UO but I did play EQ. At lower levels you could solo but at later levels you had to group. Now some classes, players found out that they could solo at leter stages of the game. Yes, EQ was made after a DnD mold! They wanted grouping. You are obviously clueless.

Yes, I have been around for probably longer than you, I simply recognize that this is no longer a niche genre catering to anti-social twits living in their mother's basement.  The overwhelming majority of the MMO playerbase no longer wants that, that's something you're going to have to get through your head whether you want to or not.

This isn't 2002.  Stop living in the past and join the modern era.

Originally posted by Vrazule

God forbid that the gaming industry should reflect the diversity of it's consumer base.

There's nothing wrong with diversity and for the most part, the gaming industry *IS* reflecting the diversity of it's consumer  base.  The overwhelming majority of players play solo, at least a part of the time.  Many play it almost exclusively.  Therefore, solo play is emphasized.  That doesn't stop anyone out there from playing in a group in pretty much any game you can name.  That's reflecting diversity.  Soloers have never once suggested that we stop people from grouping, it's the groupers who can't get it through their thick little heads that they can't stop soloers from soloing.

It's amazing how many people want  more diversity by eliminating... diversity.