Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Originally posted by Ihmotepp 

I should then be able to make grouping entirely pointless, with even less xp than solo play, with no special loot bonuses, with no REAL challenge for groups because all the dungeons scale, and you should be happy. 

 

How many times (and in how many threads) am I going to have to repeat this before it sinks in?

PEOPLE THAT GROUP ADVANCE 30% FASTER THAN THOSE THAT SOLO!!!!!

Yes, you make less XP per kill, but you kill more mobs, not to mention bigger mobs. This not only makes up the difference but actually exceeds the XP rewards of solo play.

DO THE FUCKING MATH!!!!

 

The math in the leveling game in WoW says you are wrong.

Do the math again. And do the Fucking Math, you're still wrong.

AND don't forget to add in travel time, discussion of what the group should do, waiiting for bio breaks, someone to get a soda or check on the baby, time outs, waiting for someone to log back on, etc.

So rather than move to an MMO that works the way MMOs have always worked, you just want to rebuild WoW.

BTW, you're dead wrong. In recent times people have taken to speedrunning WoW's level progression and most have gotten there by insane party sizes. The first person to get from level one to 60 in 115 hours did so by forming a monster powerleveling group of 40 people.

Downtime due to RL interuptions is not something that devs can do anything about and are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Originally posted by DarkPony

I think the whole discussion between anti and pro grouping people is unfair anyway. The pro groupers are always in superior numbers.

Well, of course there are more in favor of grouping. That's kind of the point of an MMO. I just don't understand why people play MMOs and exclusively solo -- there are a lot of single player games out there that are far better.

But then people have the right to play games however they like.

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by DarkPony

I think the whole discussion between anti and pro grouping people is unfair anyway. The pro groupers are always in superior numbers.

 

Well, of course there are more in favor of grouping. That's kind of the point of an MMO. I just don't understand why people play MMOs and exclusively solo -- there are a lot of single player games out there that are far better.

But then people have the right to play games however they like.

I don't think anyone who has posted on this topic has ever said that they exclusively solo. In fact, I haven't met anyone, in any MMO, that exclusively solos. Although I have met people that will only exclusively group with people they know in real life.

What more can a developer do to make those that group happier?

Perhaps you want to be rewarded with instant max lvl as soon as your click "Group"?

Perhaps you expect to get 1000% bonus exp for grping?

Perhaps your looking for epic loot drops on every kill becuase your grpd?

Or just perhaps your looking for an excuse to be rewarded JUST becuase you've taken the time to form a grp?

Group play has enough rewards aloocated to it in most MMO's, dungeons have can have various settings to reward team work over solo play.

Certain quests require team work to complete and the rewards are reflected thus.

Certain games reward grp play with higher exp than solo play.

Yet we still have ppl who group complaining that it's not enough of an incentive.

I see no new ideas being brought here to show tell the devs what groupers want other than to make the game so damn easy that it isn't worth playing anymore.

If you've come here just to complain fine, but don't expect those who disagree to provide you with the answers your so desperate to get.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Downtime due to RL interuptions is not something that devs can do anything about and are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

That's the entire point of adding in bonuses for grouping, and it DOES most certainly deal with RL interuptions.

Grouping can often take so much time, becaues you are nto just on your schedule, but everyone elses as well.

WHen you solo, only you have to take a bio break.

When you group, not everyone has to pee at the same time, which means multiple bio breaks, and you have no control over that.

Bonuses for grouping help balance those exact sorts of things.

When you solo, if you go ld, so what, you long back on and immediately start from there.

When you group, it's common courtesy to wait for a ld member to log back on, or go get him if the group has moved on.

Again, group xp bonuses make up for these delays in game play which are unavoidable.

Originally posted by cfurlin

Originally posted by DarkPony

I think the whole discussion between anti and pro grouping people is unfair anyway. The pro groupers are always in superior numbers.

 

Well, of course there are more in favor of grouping. That's kind of the point of an MMO. I just don't understand why people play MMOs and exclusively solo -- there are a lot of single player games out there that are far better.

But then people have the right to play games however they like.

I think alot like to solo becuase of the nature of an MMO, it has much more freedom than your usual RPG, plus it has much more content and a regular patching system that brings in more content ontop of that, normally a single player RPG will be completed within a week, an MMO on the other hand is built to last at least a year, then add ontop of that the ptaches.

Originally posted by qbangy32

What more can a developer do to make those that group happier?

Perhaps you want to be rewarded with instant max lvl as soon as your click "Group"?

Perhaps you expect to get 1000% bonus exp for grping?

Perhaps your looking for epic loot drops on every kill becuase your grpd?

Or just perhaps your looking for an excuse to be rewarded JUST becuase you've taken the time to form a grp?

Group play has enough rewards aloocated to it in most MMO's, dungeons have can have various settings to reward team work over solo play.

Certain quests require team work to complete and the rewards are reflected thus.

Certain games reward grp play with higher exp than solo play.

Yet we still have ppl who group complaining that it's not enough of an incentive.

I see no new ideas being brought here to show tell the devs what groupers want other than to make the game so damn easy that it isn't worth playing anymore.

If you've come here just to complain fine, but don't expect those who disagree to provide you with the answers your so desperate to get.

 

I will take the 1,000% xp bonus, kthxbye.

It's too bad that MMOs cost so much to make these days. I'd almost prefer it if developers just picked a style of gameplay and ran with it, instead of trying to do everything for everybody. As long as grouping provides huge benefits over solo play, your average solo player will feel like a second-class citizen; as long as solo play comes anywhere near the effectiveness of grouping, your average group gamer will feel like it's too hard to find a team and that the game gives you no reason to do it anyway. Everyone loses.

It all makes me nostalgic for the first big wave of MMOs, particularly Everquest and Asheron's Call. EQ was all about grouping, Asheron's Call was all about soloing, both had plenty of players, both were specialized in providing content for their respective player types. I couldn't stand EQ, but a lot of people loved it. Asheron's Call is the measuring stick by which I measure all other MMOs, but people who played EQ hated it. And it was totally fine, because each playstyle had a home. These days? We're all sharing the same neighborhood, and that means compromises. To paraphrase an old adage,  "You know you've reached a successful compromise when neither party is pleased with the outcome," so kudos to the MMO industry for reaching a successful compromise.

Putting soloers and groupers together in the same game sometimes seems about as sensible as storing ice cubes in a microwave with exposed wires. If I've learned anything about the whole "solo versus group" thing after seeing daily topics on the subject on every MMO forum that's ever existed, it's that the two sides are never going to agree, and neither side really wants to. Each just wants to expound upon their own reasoning for playing the way they do, they don't really have any interest in understanding why anyone else plays differently. These threads always end up at the "I'm right and you're wrong" stage, and most of them start that way in the very first post. Nothing is ever learned, nothing is ever accomplished; it's all a bunch of chest-pounding, with the occasional lynch mob thrown in for flavor.

Don't bother arguing with any of this, because I'm right and you're wrong.

<pounds her chest>

Someone get a rope, some torches, and a few pitchforks.

Now let's all get back to bitching at one another about RMTs!

Originally posted by Jenuviel

It's too bad that MMOs cost so much to make these days. I'd almost prefer it if developers just picked a style of gameplay and ran with it, instead of trying to do everything for everybody. As long as grouping provides huge benefits over solo play, your average solo player will feel like a second-class citizen; as long as solo play comes anywhere near the effectiveness of grouping, your average group gamer will feel like it's too hard to find a team and that the game gives you no reason to do it anyway. Everyone loses.

 

It all makes me nostalgic for the first big wave of MMOs, particularly Everquest and Asheron's Call. EQ was all about grouping, Asheron's Call was all about soloing, both had plenty of players, both were specialized in providing content for their respective player types. I couldn't stand EQ, but a lot of people loved it. Asheron's Call is the measuring stick by which I measure all other MMOs, but people who played EQ hated it. And it was totally fine, because each playstyle had a home. These days? We're all sharing the same neighborhood, and that means compromises. To paraphrase an old adage,  "You know you've reached a successful compromise when neither party is pleased with the outcome," so kudos to the MMO industry for reaching a successful compromise.

 

Putting soloers and groupers together in the same game sometimes seems about as sensible as storing ice cubes in a microwave with exposed wires. If I've learned anything about the whole "solo versus group" thing after seeing daily topics on the subject on every MMO forum that's ever existed, it's that the two sides are never going to agree, and neither side really wants to. Each just wants to expound upon their own reasoning for playing the way they do, they don't really have any interest in understanding why anyone else plays differently. These threads always end up at the "I'm right and you're wrong" stage, and most of them start that way in the very first post. Nothing is ever learned, nothing is ever accomplished; it's all a bunch of chest-pounding, with the occasional lynch mob thrown in for flavor.

Don't bother arguing with any of this, because I'm right and you're wrong.

<pounds her chest>

Someone get a rope, some torches, and a few pitchforks.

 

Now let's all get back to bitching at one another about RMTs!

I think you are right. I played EQ, didn't care for Asheron's Call.

Asheron's Call won, all games today are being made solo friendly.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Downtime due to RL interuptions is not something that devs can do anything about and are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

 

That's the entire point of adding in bonuses for grouping, and it DOES most certainly deal with RL interuptions.

Grouping can often take so much time, becaues you are nto just on your schedule, but everyone elses as well.

WHen you solo, only you have to take a bio break.

When you group, not everyone has to pee at the same time, which means multiple bio breaks, and you have no control over that.

Bonuses for grouping help balance those exact sorts of things.

When you solo, if you go ld, so what, you long back on and immediately start from there.

When you group, it's common courtesy to wait for a ld member to log back on, or go get him if the group has moved on.

Again, group xp bonuses make up for these delays in game play which are unavoidable.

Your making out that MMO's don't provide grping bonuses when some of them do, not every single one but some.

Plus why should a bonus compensate for bio breaks? thats the pitfalls of grping, their shouldn't have to be a mechanic that rewards downtime, you realise that when you grp with others you have to allow extra time for outside distractions, just as a solo player has to do the same, however as a solo player who remains in the game and is afk there is the chance of;

A. being ganked if they are PvP enabled without anyone watching their back such as you would find in a grp.

B. getting stomped by a passing aggro mob while afk and not having the protection of a grp to again watch his back 

C. losing a camp to others who see your afk and move in, in a grp you can reply to tells/whispers and tell them the camp is taken.

Yes I agree grps should get a small grp bonus but thats already in some MMO's so it's a mute point anyway, your not exactly coming up with something thats new, just something that isn't adopted by every MMO out there.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Why another thread when there are already half a dozen on the exact same topic?

I have an answer for that actually. Once a thread gets more than 3 or 4 pages long, everyone skips reading them and just posts at the end, bascially ending any real discussion or dialogue.

If this were my forums I'd have all threads lock after 100 posts or so.

And from some of the responses, the message still hasn't gotten through.

Raiding does not equal grouping.  If you had ever played DAOC in its heyday you'd understand.

I could log in, head to a nearby group area and look for a PUG.  I'd eventually find one, (sometimes quicker than others) and play as long as I could.  When it was time to leave, I'd let the group know, they'd broadcast to find a replacement, and the group continued.

Also, people say groupers are greedy, and if you play WOW I'll agree.  But back in DAOC people fell over themselves to give the loot to those who needed, Perhaps because the really good gear was player crafted but I recall even during dragon raids where really good stuff dropped most people were quite fair about things.  Ninja looitng was extremely rare.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

<snip>

 

I think you are right. I played EQ, didn't care for Asheron's Call.

Asheron's Call won, all games today are being made solo friendly.

Except they're not, at least not by the standards of solo players. Every game that's "solo-friendly" is only solo-friendly to the level cap, at which point it's all about groups. There's no reason for a solo-gamer to stay once they reach that level cap, and there's no reason for groupers to play until the endgame because the pathway there wasn't designed for them. It's not really good for either extreme, only for the people who don't really care one way or another. It's definitely a weird model.

Why are MMOs so expensive to make?  What has changed over the last 10 years to make them so much more costly?  If they are that much more expensive, then why are they still charging $14.99 a month and still making a profit?

I think people are far too quick to excuse the industry about something for which they know nothing about.  Why can't the industry streamline like other businesses?  We know that forced grouping games can make a decent profit, yet no one is willing to see if a solo / group optional game couldn't make as much if not more?  With the large numbers of games out there and the soon to be released ones, it only seems logical to start focusing on specific audiences in order to compete.  That includes soloers, groupers, small groupers, PvPers, Crafters, Raiders, casuals, hardcores, traditional gamers and non-traditional gamers.....etc.

Originally posted by qbangy32

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Downtime due to RL interuptions is not something that devs can do anything about and are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

 

That's the entire point of adding in bonuses for grouping, and it DOES most certainly deal with RL interuptions.

Grouping can often take so much time, becaues you are nto just on your schedule, but everyone elses as well.

WHen you solo, only you have to take a bio break.

When you group, not everyone has to pee at the same time, which means multiple bio breaks, and you have no control over that.

Bonuses for grouping help balance those exact sorts of things.

When you solo, if you go ld, so what, you long back on and immediately start from there.

When you group, it's common courtesy to wait for a ld member to log back on, or go get him if the group has moved on.

Again, group xp bonuses make up for these delays in game play which are unavoidable.

 

Your making out that MMO's don't provide grping bonuses when some of them do, not every single one but some.

Plus why should a bonus compensate for bio breaks? thats the pitfalls of grping, their shouldn't have to be a mechanic that rewards downtime, you realise that when you grp with others you have to allow extra time for outside distractions, just as a solo player has to do the same, however as a solo player who remains in the game and is afk there is the chance of;

A. being ganked if they are PvP enabled without anyone watching their back such as you would find in a grp.

B. getting stomped by a passing aggro mob while afk and not having the protection of a grp to again watch his back 

C. losing a camp to others who see your afk and move in, in a grp you can reply to tells/whispers and tell them the camp is taken.

Yes I agree grps should get a small grp bonus but thats already in some MMO's so it's a mute point anyway, your not exactly coming up with something thats new, just something that isn't adopted by every MMO out there.

WoW. No group bonus.

Name the games with group bonus, besides EQ, DAoC, FFXI?

The whole point of the group bonus is to make up for the "pitfalls of grouping".

You can easily stop the problem you are saying exiists with solo play. Log off, long back on. Not the game, but the server.

Takes a couple fo minutes. C is not a real problem, IMO, but a design flaw that affects both groups and solo players if there are not enough "camps" to go around.

You can't do that and get rid of the "pitfalls" of grouping, which include things like traveling to join group members together.

Originally posted by Jenuviel

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

<snip>

 

I think you are right. I played EQ, didn't care for Asheron's Call.

Asheron's Call won, all games today are being made solo friendly.

 

Except they're not, at least not by the standards of solo players. Every game that's "solo-friendly" is only solo-friendly to the level cap, at which point it's all about groups. There's no reason for a solo-gamer to stay once they reach that level cap, and there's no reason for groupers to play until the endgame because the pathway there wasn't designed for them. It's not really good for either extreme, only for the people who don't really care one way or another. It's definitely a weird model.

Exactly. Why would the solo player stay after the level cap? It's a completely different game, and one that does not affect you while you are leveling.

Just quite after level cap, problem solved.

Why do you even care if it's there? It's only group content, you don't want to play group content, the group content doesn't affect your leveling game.

So what if other people continue to play after level cap? How does that affect your game?

Originally posted by Vrazule

Why are MMOs so expensive to make?  What has changed over the last 10 years to make them so much more costly?  If they are that much more expensive, then why are they still charging $14.99 a month and still making a profit?

I think people are far too quick to excuse the industry about something for which they know nothing about.  Why can't the industry streamline like other businesses?  We know that forced grouping games can make a decent profit, yet no one is willing to see if a solo / group optional game couldn't make as much if not more?  With the large numbers of games out there and the soon to be released ones, it only seems logical to start focusing on specific audiences in order to compete.  That includes soloers, groupers, small groupers, PvPers, Crafters, Raiders, casuals, hardcores, traditional gamers and non-traditional gamers.....etc.

Eventually the niche game will be the way to compete, but it's taking a long time to get there.

There will be solo games, group games, games that focus on raiding, PvP games, Crafter games, etc., etc.

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I think the best Compromise to this issue is to make some things in game only accomplishable by soloing, and other things only accomplishable by grouping. I don't know if that is necessarily the best solution, but it is the best compromise.

 

So far, from the posts we have seen from advocates of optional solo play, I'd say almost every one of them would be 100% for that. It's the forced grouping crowd that would need to bend a bit to make that happen though.

 

 

Both groups would have to bend, because this would be forcing something on everyone.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I think the best Compromise to this issue is to make some things in game only accomplishable by soloing, and other things only accomplishable by grouping. I don't know if that is necessarily the best solution, but it is the best compromise.

 

I think that's a fair compromise.

My biggest complaint is when solo advocates say, it doesn't affect me if they make the dungeon scale, so that they can solo it.

Of course it does affect me. Why in the world would I take all the time and trouble to group for something that I can just solo? The fun of grouping is diminished, because the challenge is removed. Sure, I might group to do it, but that's a crappy group game, because it was pointless to group. There was no REASON to group, since you can just solo it.

So, stop with the argument that if you can do something BOTH ways, group and solo, that's good for grouping. It's not. That's good for soloing, but removes the challenge from grouping and makes it pointless.

However, if you want to do 50/50 and make the game half group required, and half solo required OK, fine with me.

The trick is, you cannot avoid EITEHR part of the game. So, to get to level 20 from level 19, you MUST do X solo content, AND X group content.

You can't just solo and skip the group content, you can't just group and skip the solo content. Indeed, I would find that to be fair. I would grimace at doing the solo content, and the solo players would grimace at doing the group content, but at least it would be REAL worthwhile and challenging group content that cannot be avoided.

I agree. You can't give equal progressions to both sides because if you do, everyone will just solo because it is easier to do. People will take the path of least resistance. But making it so that some things must be grouped for, and some things must be solo'd for, allows for both playstyles to play the same game on equal ground.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I think the best Compromise to this issue is to make some things in game only accomplishable by soloing, and other things only accomplishable by grouping. I don't know if that is necessarily the best solution, but it is the best compromise.

 

So far, from the posts we have seen from advocates of optional solo play, I'd say almost every one of them would be 100% for that. It's the forced grouping crowd that would need to bend a bit to make that happen though.

 

 

 

Both groups would have to bend, because this would be forcing something on everyone.

Agreed.

So far solo advocates have simply posted they want to destroy the challenge that makes grouping fun, and not be forced to do anything.

I'm ok with forcing something on everyone.

I HAVE to solo, can't avoid it, you HAVE to group, can't avoid it.

This means the group content is not destroyed, so I like it.

forcing me to spend time to get a group together to advance my character is fail

i have better things to do with my money

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Jenuviel

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

<snip>

 

I think you are right. I played EQ, didn't care for Asheron's Call.

Asheron's Call won, all games today are being made solo friendly.

 

Except they're not, at least not by the standards of solo players. Every game that's "solo-friendly" is only solo-friendly to the level cap, at which point it's all about groups. There's no reason for a solo-gamer to stay once they reach that level cap, and there's no reason for groupers to play until the endgame because the pathway there wasn't designed for them. It's not really good for either extreme, only for the people who don't really care one way or another. It's definitely a weird model.

 

Exactly. Why would the solo player stay after the level cap? It's a completely different game, and one that does not affect you while you are leveling.

Just quite after level cap, problem solved.

Why do you even care if it's there? It's only group content, you don't want to play group content, the group content doesn't affect your leveling game.

So what if other people continue to play after level cap? How does that affect your game?

O_o
 

Isn't that one of their main arguments that they want things to do once they level cap? Not saying I agree with them nor do I agree with you because frankly I see nothing wrong with offering both like an earlier poster suggested. If all they wanted was to reach max level and nothing else I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care about this whole debate one way or the other long as a game offered them a way to get there by soloing.

I really don't want either of the games extremists want.  I played EQ and it was fun but that doesn't mean I want to do that again. I don't want a game where I have to group to complete anything and everything and I also don't want a game that is essentially a single player game where everything can be soloed or henchmen could be used so I never interact with anyone.

Really don't understand why there is such a need with some that is has to be just one way or the other.

Originally posted by rr2real

forcing me to spend time to get a group together to advance my character is fail

i have better things to do with my money

Not providing me with a challenge that requires team work and cannot be avoided is fail. I have better things to do with my money.

I sincerely hope Devs and publishers want BOTH our monies, and make different games for both of us.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

IMO, this is an argument I see constantly from Solo advocates when they talk about groupers or "forced grouping".

It goes liike this:

You say you like to group. Well, I'm going to LET you group. In other words, you can click on other players, and then a "group dialog" window will pop up. There will be a little window that says "group".

There, you are grouped. Since you like to group, you will be happy now, because you're in a "group".

I can now change all the rules of the entire game however I want to, but as long as I give you a little window that says "group" you should be happy, because you are grouped.

If you are not happy with this, then I'm going to conclude that really, you don't like grouping.

I should then be able to make grouping entirely pointless, with even less xp than solo play, with no special loot bonuses, with no REAL challenge for groups because all the dungeons scale, and you should be happy.

Why will you be happy with this game, even though the rules have destroyed all the reasons you actually like grouping?

Because I gave you a little window that says "group". That's all you need. If you're not satisfied with that, then really, you don't like grouping, you just want to level faster or show off your loot to solo players.

Uh no, actually I want a good grouping game, and a little window that says "group" doesn't really do that. There actaully needs to be soome GAME MECHANICS that make grouping fun, BESIDES a little window that says "group" on it.

In fact, I will take the GAME MECHANICS over the little window that says "group" on it. You can get rid fo that window altogether if you want, but design a good team based game with challenges that cannot be avoided, challenges that don't scale, and real team work required to overcome those challenges.

 

Umm WTF? Do you have any clue about the topic you started? You skirt around the issue that people have with "forced group" hunting never really giving any reason why groups are needed for certain tasks. Or why people dont like being forced into groups to level..

I agree when it comes to big bosses like a Dragon in in DDO or EQ2 there needs to be a group otherwise it it wouldnt be called a boss. But to group up just to level between levels 10 to 20 becuase the monsters are to hard to hunt is not why I play MMO's. I play MMO's because there is no god mode for me to cheat my way through the game. I also play to socialize with other players. Will I group up to hunt? When I feel like grouping up I will group up. It is not up to the develpors to tell me how to hunt. If I wanted to be in a forced group hunting game I'll play games like EverQuest 2 or Final Fantasy Online.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Exactly. Why would the solo player stay after the level cap? It's a completely different game, and one that does not affect you while you are leveling.

Just quite after level cap, problem solved.

Because not everyone plays an MMO just to level to the cap and collect loot.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Jenuviel

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

<snip>

 

I think you are right. I played EQ, didn't care for Asheron's Call.

Asheron's Call won, all games today are being made solo friendly.

 

Except they're not, at least not by the standards of solo players. Every game that's "solo-friendly" is only solo-friendly to the level cap, at which point it's all about groups. There's no reason for a solo-gamer to stay once they reach that level cap, and there's no reason for groupers to play until the endgame because the pathway there wasn't designed for them. It's not really good for either extreme, only for the people who don't really care one way or another. It's definitely a weird model.

 

Exactly. Why would the solo player stay after the level cap? It's a completely different game, and one that does not affect you while you are leveling.

Just quite after level cap, problem solved.

Why do you even care if it's there? It's only group content, you don't want to play group content, the group content doesn't affect your leveling game.

So what if other people continue to play after level cap? How does that affect your game?

O_o
 

Isn't that one of their main arguments that they want things to do once they level cap? Not saying I agree with them nor do I agree with you because frankly I see nothing wrong with offering both like an earlier poster suggested. If all they wanted was to reach max level and nothing else I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care about this whole debate one way or the other long as a game offered them a way to get there by soloing.

I really don't want either of the games extremists want.  I played EQ and it was fun but that doesn't mean I want to do that again. I don't want a game where I have to group to complete anything and everything and I also don't want a game that is essentially a single player game where everything can be soloed or henchmen could be used so I never interact with anyone.

Really don't understand why there is such a need with some that is has to be just one way or the other.

If what solo players want is an End Game that is PvP, and they are worried that the PvP will be unbalanced if they don't do Raids because they won't get the uber gear, then sure, that would be a valid complaint.

But WoW doesn't have meaningful PvP, so who cares about that? It's just duels, no RvR, no territory to take over, etc.

If the end game is jjust raiding, which it is in WoW, then why do solo players care about it? They obviously don't want to raid. Is this really the complaint? Solo players want raid gear so they can duel?

Why would they want to duel? It's pointless. I kill you, you fall down, you kill me, I fall down, nothing else happens. We don't capture a keep, we don't loot each others bodies, what do we get?