You're all equally stupid for having the exact same conversation everytime one of these threads is created.

Why would anyone want to group or solo in a game with any of you obvious crybabies?

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Palebane

I would still group with you.

And I'd still resurrect you if I stumbled on your corpse while soloing.

It's nice to be nice.

And I'll help out anyone who asks for help in a nice manner. You know, something like "Excuse me, but is there any chance you can spare me 5 minutes of your time? I just can't seem to complete this quest on my own. If you don't want to help or don't have the time, no worries."

Requests along the lines of "b00st ME can have sum gold 2 pl0x?" will result in ending up on my ignore list. Unfortunately, this seems to be the standard request for help these days. Maybe that's why I spend more time soloing than grouping?

Still... even those dickheads... I'll at least rez and buff if I happen to run past 'em.

"What really pisses me off is that you goup / raid fanatics can't seem to stand the thought of even one single MMO (SWTOR) possibly giving soloers / casuals a game to call their own. The sheer amount of entitlement you people exhibit is mind boggling."

Imagine the uproar from them if solo players wanted to have an unfair advantage in the end game, instead of just equality.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Abrahmm 

That darn reading thing is still getting you. If I may quote myself, "It's the 'all solo, all the time" people I don't get". Is that better for you? Do I need to explain more? Nothing is inconsistant about my argument.

I did read that, as it happens .. now, if you'd said that from when you joined the debate rather than "Who wants to pay monthly to play an RPG solo when you can play a single person RPG for me? Sounds stupid to me." then my responses to you in this thread would likely have been somewhat different, don't you think?

You don't get to "clarify" position mid-argument then gripe about comments made towards your previously unclear position.

I'm in the "all solo, all the time" crowd? Wow I'm getting all sorts of labels tonight.

And do please lay off the lame insults; it's getting dull.

Really? No clarification mid argument? The first sentence out of anyone's mouth in a debate is their only argument and it can't be refined. That's amazing, teach me more please. Who labeled you as that? I know I didn't, I just made a comment on your comment about how there have been no solo friendly games yet, which is false.

Don't start the insulting throwing if you can't take them being thrown back.

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

You're all equally stupid for having the exact same conversation everytime one of these threads is created.

 

Why would anyone want to group or solo in a game with any of you obvious crybabies?

Then why would you even participate in this thread.  You have stooped to our level and are no better than the cry babies you are crying about.

This is a continuous debate, because developers are not getting it right.  You have two large groups of players who are unhappy with the current status of the genre, precisely because developers keep trying to integrate competing play styles.  Groupers and raiders aren't happy unless they have scrubs to wave their e-peens at and soloers aren't happy unless they get equality or a game to call their own.  Until developers get off their lazy asses and do some real changes, we are going to keep riding them about it by having discussions and debates.

We only have two tools at our disposal for this.  That is our money and bulletin boards that are frequented by these companies.  I've already spoken with the withdrawal of my money, now all I have left to effect  change are my opinions.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Really? No clarification mid argument? The first sentence out of anyone's mouth in a debate is their only argument and it can't be refined. That's amazing, teach me more please. Who labeled you as that? I know I didn't, I just made a comment on your comment about how there have been no solo friendly games yet, which is false.

Don't start the insulting throwing if you can't take them being thrown back.

If your first statement (such as "soloing in an MMO is stupid") conflicts with your following statement (such as "soloing in an MMO is fine") then that's a 180, not a "refinment", and you can hardly take umbrage at people attacking your first statement before your second is even made.

But regardless, this discussion has now gone completely off topic, so I'm choosing to end it rather that let it veer any further off-course.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Really? No clarification mid argument? The first sentence out of anyone's mouth in a debate is their only argument and it can't be refined. That's amazing, teach me more please. Who labeled you as that? I know I didn't, I just made a comment on your comment about how there have been no solo friendly games yet, which is false.

Don't start the insulting throwing if you can't take them being thrown back.

If your first statement (such as "soloing in an MMO is stupid") conflicts with your following statement (such as "soloing in an MMO is fine") then that's a 180, not a "refinment", and you can hardly take umbrage at people attacking your first statement before your second is even made.

But regardless, this discussion has now gone completely off topic, so I'm choosing to end it rather that let it veer any further off-course.

Go re-read what I posted. No where did I specify the soloing I was talking about. Later, I refined to state that I was fine with some solo CONTENT, but thought complete self dependence, also definable by "solo", was not fine. Is this clearer now? That isn't a 180, that is a refinement. I still think completely solo self dependence is stupid. I still think people wanting to be "all solo, all the time" in an MMO is stupid. I don't mind solo content as not everyone has the time everytime they log in to find a group, and solo content is required. You should read posts in their context.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by aleos

I mean where has all this shit come from? other then left field...i mean wtf.

At a complete guess, TOR.

Bioware have recently stated that they're not aiming the game towards hardcore players, but catering to a far more casual/solo crowd. This resulted in an outcry from the hardcore minorities like the raiding "elite"  and an ensuing backlash from the soloers who are annoyed that the raiders are attempting to subvert the nature of the first real solo-oriented game into yet another raiding loot-ladder.

Couple be completely wrong, but I've seen quite a few solo-vs-group discussions spring from it.

 

One of the reasons I'm looking forward to SWTOR. Besides being a fan of Bioware and the Knights of the Old Republic games, that is.

I have to agree, Bioware for me have always made very enjoyable games for me to become immersed within, and I'm hoping the same can be said for SWTOR.

I have no problems with it being labelled as an MMO, I'm an MMO player but at the same time I enjoy just as many single player games aswell and for the 2 to be combined without the need or pressure to grp to advance within an MMO just sweetens the deal.

Time and again threads appear on any MMO board asking the million dollar question "Whats the best class to solo with" it's one of the most widely asked questions in the MMO genre, does this then not mean that "Solo" play is more prevelant than "Group" play.

I've been part of a raiding guild, every wednesday and sunday, every other day was filled with soloing with the odd grp if you could get enough interest, in fact most times it was damn hard to get ppl to leave their solo grind for reagents/money or just finishing off a quest to join up with you.

I do however enjoy grping but not every hour of my gaming time has to be conjoined with 5 to 40 other ppl, I want to go at my own pace and do whatever I want to do at times, and if SWTOR is going to offer me that then I'l be one happy chappy =), and if you don't like the fact the game is going to be solo orientated well there's a simple solution, don't buy the game numbty.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Originally posted by ZivaDomini

You're all equally stupid for having the exact same conversation everytime one of these threads is created.

 

Why would anyone want to group or solo in a game with any of you obvious crybabies?

 

Then why would you even participate in this thread.  You have stooped to our level and are no better than the cry babies you are crying about.

This is a continuous debate, because developers are not getting it right.  You have two large groups of players who are unhappy with the current status of the genre, precisely because developers keep trying to integrate competing play styles.  Groupers and raiders aren't happy unless they have scrubs to wave their e-peens at and soloers aren't happy unless they get equality or a game to call their own.  Until developers get off their lazy asses and do some real changes, we are going to keep riding them about it by having discussions and debates.

We only have two tools at our disposal for this.  That is our money and bulletin boards that are frequented by these companies.  I've already spoken with the withdrawal of my money, now all I have left to effect  change are my opinions.

1. 1 post does not justify the term "crying." 2 might, though.

2. This is not a debate. You're all hiding behind the term debate because you think the fact that you're posting opposing ideas you're automatically debating. However, there is no end. Neither side is willing to accept that they are wrong. Debates have ends. One side is deemed correct, the other incorrect. However this is not the case. To continue this "debate" everyday in different threads jutifies crying or whining.

You're not debating, you're whining.

From what i see is that SWTOR will be a single player game with a chat room

Originally posted by Xenx656

From what i see is that SWTOR will be a single player game with a chat room

If that's the case why didn't they just make KOTOR 3?  I haven't read much about the game because I want to go in fresh but if its a solo-fest I'm not sure if I'll like it.  There are times when I like to group and raid just like times when I like to solo.  If there's no required grouping where's the replay value and what's the point of making it an MMO?

Originally posted by LizardKing89

Originally posted by Xenx656

From what i see is that SWTOR will be a single player game with a chat room

If that's the case why didn't they just make KOTOR 3?  I haven't read much about the game because I want to go in fresh but if its a solo-fest I'm not sure if I'll like it.  There are times when I like to group and raid just like times when I like to solo.  If there's no required grouping where's the replay value and what's the point of making it an MMO?

We don't have a lot of information about TOR yet, so take this post with a pinch of salt; it's based on what little information has been officially released and what has been cobbled together by the SWTOR community.

The basic: 8 classes, 4 per faction (Republic, Sith Empire). Level based.

Each class has its own story lasting "hundreds of hours" that augments the traditional levelling process. This story takes the form of a series of interconnected missions that take place in a persistant "world" spanning several planets and you can choose to either solo or group with other players to tackle the content. There will also be companion characters, moral choices, lasting consequences and NPC romances.

Basically, a multiplayer KOTOR that eventually results in you hitting max level with your chosen class, at which point you can either take part in all of the typical MMO end-game activities like crafting, raiding, PvP, etc or you can roll a different class and start a new (and completely different) story with another "hundreds of hours" of gameplay.

If you're not end-game oriented and prefer the journey to the destination then it's basically 8 x KOTOR games in one (1 per class) where each story has at least 5 times as much story driven gameplay as KOTOR1. If you are a traditional end-game player, then it's an MMO where the tedious "kill 10 boars" quests have been replaced by a Bioware story.

I will freely admit some things here (1) I did not read all 9 pages of this thread - basically because after the first couple of pages it became repetitive. (2) I like solo play in MMO's, I usually belong to a guild/kin/corp/etc so I do communicate with my fellow players - both in written chat and on vent or teamspeak.  (3) The major reason that I prefer solo play is that I have grouped with you groupers. What a bunch of cry babies.  You spend half the game looking for people - many times the people who were trying to start the group logged off or went to solo play by the time the group is full and we can actually go do something.  Also you spam lfg attempts relentlessly for hours so that no one can actually "talk" in the chat anyways.  When you do actually get going someone will have to log out almost immediately which results in either a gimped group or another half hour of lfg attempts.

  When the action, FINALLY, starts  it seems like every group has some idiot who will aggro every mob within  2 zones so that the entire group dies, except for Mr instant aggro'r of course who will usually say, "ooops, sorry".

 I could go on but - here's the clincher - no one talks in groups, they just complain that a member of the group isn't  doing their task.

So i really do not get why you say that you like to group because of the communication.  Join a guild, get vent - talk to your guild mates and solo away.

I have a better question.

Why is everyone crying about people crying about Solo stuff?

Originally posted by Brif

I have a better question.

Why is everyone crying about people crying about Solo stuff?

LOL, cause they are lonely - nobody will group with them.  Which usually more about how THEY act than that people do not want to group.

Originally posted by LizardKing89

Originally posted by Xenx656

From what i see is that SWTOR will be a single player game with a chat room

 

If that's the case why didn't they just make KOTOR 3?  I haven't read much about the game because I want to go in fresh but if its a solo-fest I'm not sure if I'll like it.  There are times when I like to group and raid just like times when I like to solo.  If there's no required grouping where's the replay value and what's the point of making it an MMO?

What is the problem if they are making KOTOR3 and call it a different name (i.e. TOR)?

I don't see a reason why grouping needs to be REQUIRED. As long as they support grouping (i.e you can solo or group) then it will be fine.

If there are people who want to play a MMO solo (and there are many, including myself), why not take their money? There is no reason NOT to.

People who claimed that they like grouping would group anyway (if the reward is the same), so no harm done.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

Cause soloers are sucking the "MMO" out of mmorpg's.

A game with millions of soloers is still an MMO - there are, you will notice, massive amounts of players online.  Nothing whatsoever in the title says anything about grouping.  Group if you want to, and best of luck to you, but would you people PLEASE stop whining - it's getting embarrassing now.

By your definition if we all post on these threads without paying any attention to what anyone else has said we are still a forum community. It takes interaction to be a community, whether in a forum or in a MMO. Grouping is a great if not the best way to interact; I don’t think I am in a game with other people if all I see of them is the back of their horse as they ride by.

Originally posted by Scot

By your definition if we all post on these threads without paying any attention to what anyone else has said we are still a forum community. It takes interaction to be a community, whether in a forum or in a MMO. Grouping is a great if not the best way to interact; I don’t think I am in a game with other people if all I see of them is the back of their horse as they ride by.

While I agree with you that a community without interaction is flawed, I disagree with the highlight.

I enjoy grouping from time to time; I'll happily group up with a pal if they need help with something, or if I just feel like doing some group content, but I don't think that it's the best way to interact with other people in the game and for the most part I prefer solo content/interacting with the community in different ways. I don't raid any more.

If I join a group it will typically contain between 1 and 5 other people and the interaction will be largely "physical" (if such a term can be applied to a computer game). I'll heal them, or tank for them, or kill the mobs attacking them, but the social interaction will be fairly minimal. We might have a discussion about some loot that drops, or confirm a tactic for a boss fight, or chat on guild channels during pulls, but for the most part we'll be occupied with carrying out our "role" within the group.

A typical solo MMO session for me will consist of logging in, chatting with guildmates while I do whatever casual solo content I was planning to do; be that gathering resources to sell to other players, doing a quest alongside other players (either competitively or cooperatively, depending on how I feel or faction restrictions), instanced or open-world PvP, or even just hanging around in town RPing and/or plying my crafting skills.

Which is the "best" way? .. there isn't one; it's purely subjective.

About SW:ToR, they promised to make endgame content (raids, PvP) and stuff, so I dont get with all the whine about solo stuff in game...

Allright, maybe the solo stuff happens when leveling, but does it really matter? For example, I dont really enjoy to be ganked all the time, and getting some idiots whispering "CAN U HELP ME?!!?!" ... I think that this solo stuff (hopefully happens in leveling) will show, who will really play the game, and that helps to get rid off those idiots in endgame.

Now when I read my post, it makes no sense, but it will after you think.

Originally posted by kaydinv

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by patrikd23

I wanna have the choice in games to do solo content also. Since I dont wanna play with others 24/7. I like pvp and grouping also but not all the time. So I am not crying about solo stuff, I like that you have the choice.

That's fine. But what if I want to group with someone and the only other players on my server that are my level are content to just solo away? Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.

At that point, you have to ask yourself: If I'm the only person who wants to group, why is my preference more important than that of every other player who doesn't?

In this situation, you can still solo yourself. It might not be entirely to your preference, but you can still play and have fun. That option would be removed if the situation were reversed.

 

Or...

At that point, you have to ask yourself: If everyone else is soloing, why are they paying a monthly subscription?

People would rather make THEIR OWN stupid decisions as consumers than listen to your...logic. Sure they could get more out of a real single player game or something similiar to Diablo for free, but they would much rather pay a monthly subscription and justify their decisions on the fact that they CAN do them.

First of all solo players play MMOs because they dont end. whats the point of playing a single player rpg that you would probably beat and never play again. Second MMOs constantly add new content and new stories, which alot of solo players are willing to pay a monthly fee for. Thirdly MMO doesnt mean you have to be grouped to do every freaking thing in the game. Hardcores and group fanatics need to get over themselves, games are coming out to be solo friendly now. So if you dont like it dont play, there are still hardcore group focused games out there that you can play. And without WoW coming out to make the genre solo friendly MMOs wouldnt be as widely known or as accepted as they are now

Originally posted by Jetrpg

"Originally posted by Wolfenpride

Cause soloers are sucking the "MMO" out of mmorpg's.

Seriously i play these games for the sole purpose of playing with others,

but when you start gearing mmo's towards the solo crowd, your left with another bland, uninteresting, trashy mmo (more like single player rpg) that belongs in a shitter hole."

Can't really say this any better.

This is what daoc (and many other mmos) did well at its release you could solo , but it was by far better to group. I personally love the quest systems that have developed after daoc (wow, etc.), however, they are by no means better than GROUPING  up to grind out exp on mobs. the interaction between people is far better than easy solo quests.

So if i made a mmo you bet their be questing, and what not, but most of the mobs would be camps and you would get better exp and equal equipment from just grindign away at camps that require you to have at least 3-6 people to take, and you better believe group size would be 8-10.

An interestign thing was healers in daoc never just healed, they also cc'ed, or gave massive buffs that was REAL dps or tanking not a weak 1-5% but a nice 20-50% increase.

I agree. DAoC before expansions, had it just right. You could grind, OR Quest, take your pick, neither was much better than the other. Today, you quest grind.

You could solo OR group, BUT group was much better, which rewarded groupers for the time and effort it takes to group, and established good community because people NEEDED each others help. Today, sure people group but they don't NEED to group because it's solo friendly. They just drop out whenever, or act like asshats because they can with no consequences.

There was downtime, not so much you got bored silly, but enough to coordinate what to do next and chat without feeling like you were wasting time that could be spent getting xp and loot. Today, no downtime, just fight, fight, fight, loot, kthxbye.

Originally posted by unimatrix8

Originally posted by kaydinv

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Palebane

Originally posted by patrikd23

I wanna have the choice in games to do solo content also. Since I dont wanna play with others 24/7. I like pvp and grouping also but not all the time. So I am not crying about solo stuff, I like that you have the choice.

That's fine. But what if I want to group with someone and the only other players on my server that are my level are content to just solo away? Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.

At that point, you have to ask yourself: If I'm the only person who wants to group, why is my preference more important than that of every other player who doesn't?

In this situation, you can still solo yourself. It might not be entirely to your preference, but you can still play and have fun. That option would be removed if the situation were reversed.

 

Or...

At that point, you have to ask yourself: If everyone else is soloing, why are they paying a monthly subscription?

People would rather make THEIR OWN stupid decisions as consumers than listen to your...logic. Sure they could get more out of a real single player game or something similiar to Diablo for free, but they would much rather pay a monthly subscription and justify their decisions on the fact that they CAN do them.

First of all solo players play MMOs because they dont end. whats the point of playing a single player rpg that you would probably beat and never play again. Second MMOs constantly add new content and new stories, which alot of solo players are willing to pay a monthly fee for. Thirdly MMO doesnt mean you have to be grouped to do every freaking thing in the game. Hardcores and group fanatics need to get over themselves, games are coming out to be solo friendly now. So if you dont like it dont play, there are still hardcore group focused games out there that you can play. And without WoW coming out to make the genre solo friendly MMOs wouldnt be as widely known or as accepted as they are now

I'd like some examples that aren't getting sort of old now, or haven't been ruined by expansions?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Jetrpg

"Originally posted by Wolfenpride

Cause soloers are sucking the "MMO" out of mmorpg's.

Seriously i play these games for the sole purpose of playing with others,

but when you start gearing mmo's towards the solo crowd, your left with another bland, uninteresting, trashy mmo (more like single player rpg) that belongs in a shitter hole."

Can't really say this any better.

This is what daoc (and many other mmos) did well at its release you could solo , but it was by far better to group. I personally love the quest systems that have developed after daoc (wow, etc.), however, they are by no means better than GROUPING  up to grind out exp on mobs. the interaction between people is far better than easy solo quests.

So if i made a mmo you bet their be questing, and what not, but most of the mobs would be camps and you would get better exp and equal equipment from just grindign away at camps that require you to have at least 3-6 people to take, and you better believe group size would be 8-10.

An interestign thing was healers in daoc never just healed, they also cc'ed, or gave massive buffs that was REAL dps or tanking not a weak 1-5% but a nice 20-50% increase.

 

I agree. DAoC before expansions, had it just right. You could grind, OR Quest, take your pick, neither was much better than the other. Today, you quest grind.

You could solo OR group, BUT group was much better, which rewarded groupers for the time and effort it takes to group, and established good community because people NEEDED each others help. Today, sure people group but they don't NEED to group because it's solo friendly. They just drop out whenever, or act like asshats because they can with no consequences.

There was downtime, not so much you got bored silly, but enough to coordinate what to do next and chat without feeling like you were wasting time that could be spent getting xp and loot. Today, no downtime, just fight, fight, fight, loot, kthxbye.

Excellent summary of how DAOC was back in the good days, and if people didn't get to experience it then they likely don't realize how much fun it could be.

WAR fails in large part because it fails to recapture this group mechanic established by DAOC.

GROUPING  up to grind out exp on mobs.

you would get better exp and equal equipment from just grindign away at camps

 Today, no downtime, just fight, fight, fight, loot, kthxbye.

Forced Grouping, XP grinding, downtime..

It staggers me that some people would still want these mechanics in an MMO.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

GROUPING  up to grind out exp on mobs.

you would get better exp and equal equipment from just grindign away at camps

 Today, no downtime, just fight, fight, fight, loot, kthxbye.

Forced Grouping, XP grinding, downtime..

It staggers me that some people would still want these mechanics in an MMO.

These are the only elements that make an MMO fun and immersive, IMO.

Most RPGs, especially MMORPGs, can be played by a monkey. Press button, level, or level skills, press button.

Without the forced grouping, xp grinding, and downtime, you might as well play solitaire, both require just as much effort and attention.