Originally posted by Neosai

Actually WoW is popular mainly due it is easy to access and the fact that the fan base was already there.  Anyone who was a fan of Blizzard's previous works would have gave WoW a try at the very least, including myself.  It basically skipped the first 2 years of a standard MMO launch process due to Blizzard fans jumping on the wagon.  This is very good way to do business BTW, very good indeed.

However, why are you bringing up Starcraft II to dictate why you believe WoW is great?  It is even worse than using subscription number as a measurement of the quality of a game.  (Note I said quality, not popularity)  WoW is WoW, Starcraft is Starcraft.  The two games have nothing to do with each other except the fact it is produced by the same company.  Yes, I do believe Blizzard is good at doing business and making interesting games.  But no, I don't accept this illogical way of using one game to praise another, especially not on games based on different archetypes.

WoW is hardcore? *chuckles*  Try some MMOs that are actually challenging.  Easy to access games are usually rather easy to play too, and WoW is about as easy as it gets.  There are always the issue of what determines "hardcore" in MMORPG too, however I'll leave that for a more suitable topic should I come across one.

I would have to disagree sir.

Design philosophy can and does carry over from one game to another, from one genre to another, if made by the same company. Easy to get into, hard to master, and polished are the basic tenants of any Blizzard game despite what genre it is. Starcraft, Diablo, Warcraft, they make all of their games the same way. Easy to get into, hard to master, polished beyond comparison.

Look at Bethesda with Oblivion and then Fallout 3. Same genre, totally different games, same design philosophy. Bioware and KOTOR 1, Mass Effect, and now the upcoming SW: ToR.

Same design philosophy, same company. I think the comparison to how Blizzard is doing SC2 is valid, the Blizzard person in the OP article says it himself lol.

WoW is pretty damn hardcore. Sure, there may not be naked corpse runs or full loot or strict death penalties and such, but those things are not "hardcore" they are old school. There is a HUGE difference.

To me, hardcore is the PvP honor grind, the Arena ladders, Reputation/Faction grinds, daily quests grinds, all of what is involved in raiding... I've been playing MMOs a long time and I've never had to invest so much time and effort into a game as I have had to in World of Warcraft.

UO and SWG were a LOT more casual. Log in, do some stuff, log out. Extremely casual. Didn't have to log in and grind mats and dailies for money and potions etc. for raiding for hours, then raid for 5-6 hours straight, and do it every day for years.

WoW may be extremely casual in the level-up process, but at end-game it's just as hardcore if not a LOT more hardcore then any other MMO I have ever played, and I've played them all. It may not be "old school" as in too many pointless time sinks and mechanics designed to frustrate and punish, but it certainly is Hardcore in terms of time investment and involvement.

I'd say that fits the bill perfectly for "easy to get into, hard to master, polished beyond comparison" wouldn't you? 

Bioware doesn't design their games toward hardcores.  They've said in an interview that their design philosophy for their upcoming MMO is NOT to cater to the hardcore MMO gamer, but rather to the KOTOR  and story oriented crowd.  They will have things like crafting and raiding, but the primary focus is on the story and the journey to end game.  Something tells me they aren't going the cheesy route of bait and switch like Blizzard.

Blizzard has drawn in a lot of people with their casual oriented leveling content, but I see absolutely no proof that the hardcore end game is responsible for any of that or that it retains anyone but hardcores.  When less than 20% of their player base even participates in raids, how could you even come to that conclusion.

Originally posted by Vrazule

Bioware doesn't design their games toward hardcores.  They've said in an interview that their design philosophy for their upcoming MMO is NOT to cater to the hardcore MMO gamer, but rather to the KOTOR  and story oriented crowd.  They will have things like crafting and raiding, but the primary focus is on the story and the journey to end game.  Something tells me they aren't going the cheesy route of bait and switch like Blizzard.

I know and I will be playing and I think it will make a very cool and fun casual, story oriented, small group or solo game. I don't even care if it's a MMO I'll be playing it lol.

Blizzard has drawn in a lot of people with their casual oriented leveling content, but I see absolutely no proof that the hardcore end game is responsible for any of that or that it retains anyone but hardcores.  When less than 20% of their player base even participates in raids, how could you even come to that conclusion.

Sure not everyone who hits 80 raids, but if only 20% of their player base raids, what does everyone else do when they hit level 80? It's obviously fun enough or interesting enough to retain the other 8,800,000 players who don't raid (80% of 11 mil).

I hate to use sub numbers, because "sub numbers do not a good game make" but at the same time if only 20% raid but so many people play the game... they have to be doing SOMETHING right to retain that many players who aren't participating in the "end-game" content because it is too hardcore or whatever.

Know what I mean?

That's how I draw my conclusions anyway, dunno about the OP.

Originally posted by johnspartan

 what does everyone else do when they hit level 80?I hate to use sub numbers, because "sub numbers do not a good game make" but at the same time if only 20% raid but so many people play the game... they have to be doing SOMETHING right to retain that many players who aren't participating in the "end-game" content because it is too hardcore or whatever.

Know what I mean?

That's how I draw my conclusions anyway, dunno about the OP.

The answer is re-roll.

Alot of players that hit level cap, will re-roll and also do dailies with their main. There's 10 class to play and that's a ot and can keep players for quite some time.

That's why the failure of other mmo is they fail to see how WoW design their class, their world, their quest, the detail that Blizz put in etc...

Im really wondering, those devs of other companies, do they still play mmo anymore? Or their last mmo is UO or EQ?

Originally posted by arctarus

Originally posted by johnspartan

 what does everyone else do when they hit level 80?I hate to use sub numbers, because "sub numbers do not a good game make" but at the same time if only 20% raid but so many people play the game... they have to be doing SOMETHING right to retain that many players who aren't participating in the "end-game" content because it is too hardcore or whatever.

Know what I mean?

That's how I draw my conclusions anyway, dunno about the OP.

The answer is re-roll.

Alot of players that hit level cap, will re-roll and also do dailies with their main. There's 10 class to play and that's a ot and can keep players for quite some time.

That's why the failure of other mmo is they fail to see how WoW design their class, their world, their quest, the detail that Blizz put in etc...

Im really wondering, those devs of other companies, do they still play mmo anymore? Or their last mmo is UO or EQ?

Exactly my point.

I don't know if "re-rolling" is the only answer to what do those other players who don't raid do, but I think it's fairly obvious that Blizzard is doing something right if so many people still play, even if 80% of them don't raid.

So I'd agree with the threads subject, Blizzard really does "get it."

Doesn't matter if I think WoW is a good game or not, truthfully I'm kind of putzing around waiting for Faction transfer service so I can kind of "start over" and see if I can bring the magic back...

But I don't argue with solid logic and fact, to do so is insanity.

Originally posted by arctarus

Originally posted by johnspartan

 what does everyone else do when they hit level 80?I hate to use sub numbers, because "sub numbers do not a good game make" but at the same time if only 20% raid but so many people play the game... they have to be doing SOMETHING right to retain that many players who aren't participating in the "end-game" content because it is too hardcore or whatever.

Know what I mean?

That's how I draw my conclusions anyway, dunno about the OP.

 

The answer is re-roll.

Alot of players that hit level cap, will re-roll and also do dailies with their main. There's 10 class to play and that's a ot and can keep players for quite some time.

That's why the failure of other mmo is they fail to see how WoW design their class, their world, their quest, the detail that Blizz put in etc...

Im really wondering, those devs of other companies, do they still play mmo anymore? Or their last mmo is UO or EQ?

 

People reroll alts in almost every game they play, it's not unique to wow and what exactly is it that makes wow classes so spectacular?  Personally I found wow's classes completely uninspiring.  Give me a bard or shaman in daoc, stalker or defender in coh , or a shaman and witch hunter in war. 

People continually talk about wow and their quest system is so much better.  You know what I've found, the mechanics are exactly the same as any other game.

Quests:  Go kill x mobs, deliver a letter, talk to a guy, fish, cook, travel alll over.    Just because wow has people addicted to doing daily quests like gerbils to the dinner bell doesn't make it better, it just means people are easily manipulated to punching the clock for a few gold.

Originally posted by johnspartan

Originally posted by Vrazule

Bioware doesn't design their games toward hardcores.  They've said in an interview that their design philosophy for their upcoming MMO is NOT to cater to the hardcore MMO gamer, but rather to the KOTOR  and story oriented crowd.  They will have things like crafting and raiding, but the primary focus is on the story and the journey to end game.  Something tells me they aren't going the cheesy route of bait and switch like Blizzard.

I know and I will be playing and I think it will make a very cool and fun casual, story oriented, small group or solo game. I don't even care if it's a MMO I'll be playing it lol.

Blizzard has drawn in a lot of people with their casual oriented leveling content, but I see absolutely no proof that the hardcore end game is responsible for any of that or that it retains anyone but hardcores.  When less than 20% of their player base even participates in raids, how could you even come to that conclusion.

 

Sure not everyone who hits 80 raids, but if only 20% of their player base raids, what does everyone else do when they hit level 80? It's obviously fun enough or interesting enough to retain the other 8,800,000 players who don't raid (80% of 11 mil).

I hate to use sub numbers, because "sub numbers do not a good game make" but at the same time if only 20% raid but so many people play the game... they have to be doing SOMETHING right to retain that many players who aren't participating in the "end-game" content because it is too hardcore or whatever.

Know what I mean?

That's how I draw my conclusions anyway, dunno about the OP.

How many of them would stay if there was another MMO that was adult oriented and casual from beginning to end.  There isn't a single adult MMO that does this, so why not stick with WoW since it's the best the casual market can get right now? 

I played WoW for 2 years and never got a class past 60 and got 4 classes up to level 60.  I quit, not because I was tired of re-rolling, but because my tolerance for gaming companies that consider my play style to be second rate to hardcores was more than I could stand.  Hardcore bias is the reason I have left every MMO I have tried since EverQuest in 1999.  I keep hoping someone will make a game that allows my play style to actually enjoy playing at high level.

Those aren't just words.  Their products exude this philosophy.  I never understood where peope are coming from who say wow is too easy.  Too easy to what?  Get to level 10?  Ok you win.

Originally posted by Vrazule

How many of them would stay if there was another MMO that was adult oriented and casual from beginning to end.  There isn't a single adult MMO that does this, so why not stick with WoW since it's the best the casual market can get right now? 

I played WoW for 2 years and never got a class past 60 and got 4 classes up to level 60.  I quit, not because I was tired of re-rolling, but because my tolerance for gaming companies that consider my play style to be second rate to hardcores was more than I could stand.  Hardcore bias is the reason I have left every MMO I have tried since EverQuest in 1999.  I keep hoping someone will make a game that allows my play style to actually enjoy playing at high level.

Things are shifting.

Even the "hardcore" aspects of raiding and PvP are getting more and more casual friendly. Large time commitments gone, forced class compositions gone, mindless trash clearing gone, high entry costs (time/gear) gone.

Eventually, the content will get smaller and smaller and more and more accessible.

I honestly believe one day, you'll hop into a group to go to a cool dungeon or kill a special boss and afterwards you won't even realize that you just raided.

But as long as they keep in the "hardcore" challenges, hard modes and achievements and such it'll continue to grow in popularity and more and more play styles will be catered too at the same time.

Originally posted by johnspartan

 

I would have to disagree sir.

Design philosophy can and does carry over from one game to another, from one genre to another, if made by the same company. Easy to get into, hard to master, and polished are the basic tenants of any Blizzard game despite what genre it is. Starcraft, Diablo, Warcraft, they make all of their games the same way. Easy to get into, hard to master, polished beyond comparison.

Look at Bethesda with Oblivion and then Fallout 3. Same genre, totally different games, same design philosophy. Bioware and KOTOR 1, Mass Effect, and now the upcoming SW: ToR.

Same design philosophy, same company. I think the comparison to how Blizzard is doing SC2 is valid, the Blizzard person in the OP article says it himself lol.

WoW is pretty damn hardcore. Sure, there may not be naked corpse runs or full loot or strict death penalties and such, but those things are not "hardcore" they are old school. There is a HUGE difference.

To me, hardcore is the PvP honor grind, the Arena ladders, Reputation/Faction grinds, daily quests grinds, all of what is involved in raiding... I've been playing MMOs a long time and I've never had to invest so much time and effort into a game as I have had to in World of Warcraft.

UO and SWG were a LOT more casual. Log in, do some stuff, log out. Extremely casual. Didn't have to log in and grind mats and dailies for money and potions etc. for raiding for hours, then raid for 5-6 hours straight, and do it every day for years.

WoW may be extremely casual in the level-up process, but at end-game it's just as hardcore if not a LOT more hardcore then any other MMO I have ever played, and I've played them all. It may not be "old school" as in too many pointless time sinks and mechanics designed to frustrate and punish, but it certainly is Hardcore in terms of time investment and involvement.

I'd say that fits the bill perfectly for "easy to get into, hard to master, polished beyond comparison" wouldn't you? 

A Man with some valid points.

The one thing i have issue with is the: "hardcore is the PvP honor grind, the Arena ladders, Reputation/Faction grinds, daily quests grinds".

None of that is hardcore, other than maybe the pvp ladder (but then agian wow's pvp is pointless so). Those are what we call time sinks , time sinks are not hardcore. Hardcore aspects of wow are the fact that you can belong to a guild that raids 6-7 nights a week for 3-6 hours. That is hardcore. Not a result of blizzards work but hardcore is the fact that you have dps, tps, and hps meters and can show others how great or bad of a player you are. (of course it is situational, but two people of the same class filling the same role can flex stats). Hardcore is a hunter and mage hitting northrend going into the first instances and  aoe duo grinding it for exp to the first boss.  There are pleanty of hardcore, 31ee7, or uber things to wow; Grinding for mats or money doesn't fall under that if you ask me. Then  agian i come from the old skool of muds were what was hardcore was doing somethign faster than should be possible, totally dominatign something, or doing somethign silly that normally people would not do (as its a good way to die, or pointless) yet acomplishing it.

I have never thought hardcore = wasting alot of time. Being highly dedicated or devoting a lot of time maybe, but the two are vastly different.

PS i normally raided w/o buffs (flask food) because your your leadign top 3 dps with a toon thats max dps is supposted to be in the middle or lower half of the pack, what is the point. PS. it is becuase im good , but also becuase may people in wow while good are not great or real good. And this lead support to easy to play but hard to master concept that i totaly agree with. (Still easiler to master than say DAOC, or AC)

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by arctarus

Originally posted by johnspartan

 what does everyone else do when they hit level 80?I hate to use sub numbers, because "sub numbers do not a good game make" but at the same time if only 20% raid but so many people play the game... they have to be doing SOMETHING right to retain that many players who aren't participating in the "end-game" content because it is too hardcore or whatever.

Know what I mean?

That's how I draw my conclusions anyway, dunno about the OP.

 

The answer is re-roll.

Alot of players that hit level cap, will re-roll and also do dailies with their main. There's 10 class to play and that's a ot and can keep players for quite some time.

That's why the failure of other mmo is they fail to see how WoW design their class, their world, their quest, the detail that Blizz put in etc...

Im really wondering, those devs of other companies, do they still play mmo anymore? Or their last mmo is UO or EQ?

 

People reroll alts in almost every game they play, it's not unique to wow and what exactly is it that makes wow classes so spectacular?  Personally I found wow's classes completely uninspiring.  Give me a bard or shaman in daoc, stalker or defender in coh , or a shaman and witch hunter in war. 

People continually talk about wow and their quest system is so much better.  You know what I've found, the mechanics are exactly the same as any other game.

Quests:  Go kill x mobs, deliver a letter, talk to a guy, fish, cook, travel alll over.    Just because wow has people addicted to doing daily quests like gerbils to the dinner bell doesn't make it better, it just means people are easily manipulated to punching the clock for a few gold.

 

All true, but I would rather a game keep my interest without the need to roll alts although in this day of gaming I'm not sure if it's even possible anymore to get that much content and diversity in a game.  I think the hardest part is making thousands of players feel like their character has an impact on the entire game world.  Some deep storylines and questlines can do it in a sense but only for so long.

I think too many players find comfort in boring quests (or actually like the kill x mobs quests...) and it's become a backbone of too many MMO's to deal with the "grind"

The game that can eliminate the grind all together and mix some of the best parts of what people are looking for is the only game that has a chance to possibly break the mold so to speak and dethrone WoW in it's current state.