I've been thinking a lot about this issue lately. It basically comes down to the rewards that people get from grouping. Grouping should be required for difficult tasks and the rewards should be unique and appropriate. The problem lies within how most games treat such rewards.

Yes, I'm talking about the dreaded Bind on Pickup. I've always disliked gear based games, but any game that employs the dreaded BoP system holds a special place of loathing in my heart. I can live with gear decay and even 'bind on equip', but BoP is really what causes all the frustration.

I think every MMO would be better off if they didn't use BoP or BoE. Better yet, if games were less gear focused and more skill / ability focused, I think there would be a lot more MMOs worth playing.

Of course, that would throw a monkey wrench into most game developers business models, so they'd have to find some other way of getting people to do the same things over and over and over again. Maybe even *gasp*, dare I say, add more content.
 

BoP or the lack of it, is a tricky design consideration. Used mostly to enforce a player only getting an item by doing a quest, not so much as to enforce grinding. Most of the items I have seen in MMO’s that involve grinding can be brought at an auction house.

But it can cause issues; I would like to see a hand in for another bop system. Let’s say you wanted a cosmetic item for looks that you can add to your avatar but does not effect stats. To do this involves a huge quest chain, which you out levelled. Rather than do that quest chain, why not be allowed to hand in another unused bop for that item? Otherwise it’s fighting greys for the reward, always a bit lame.

This isn't a solution for me, and TBH, there will never be one solution that is accepted by all.

The reason this isn't a solution for me is because while I don't care that raiders not groupers get better rewards than me, it's the fact that they can come wreck my preferred playstyle, PvP, with their epicz, that they didn't obtain through my playstyle, and I don't have access to those items, unless I adhere to their playstyle, in which case, I'll just cancel.

EDIT- Dur, I guess that's what I get for just skimming over the post. I guess that could work, even though grinding gold isn't my favorite thing either.

Another issue this might cause is an increase in gold selling. And, what the poster below me said holds true for me too, I'd like to see the content, just not when I have to do it over a coarse of 8 hours or something.

Another main issue between groupers and soloist is... Only group gets to see the content. Think Ulduar, you cant see it solo, that's where most of the complain comes from.

I cant see whats wrong with only  BoE items, imo its benefits both sides. Players that raid when they get that spare armour can sell for a high price and those that dont raid gets to have it....

Originally posted by neosapience

I think every MMO would be better off if they didn't use BoP or BoE.

Oh goody - endless queues of high-level characters farming mobs all day, every day, to outfit their low-level characters and sell at auction houses.  The game REALLY needs more of that.

I don't have a problem with BOP equipment; I think it works as intended, to reduce the amount of twinkage and give a visual indication of ones level of accomplishment in the games content. I don't think this relates to the group vs solo play argument at all.

The only "fair" solution to the group vs solo argument would be for an MMO to provide group/solo content of equal difficulty/reward instead of the current method of providing group content and solo grinds.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by neosapience

I think every MMO would be better off if they didn't use BoP or BoE.

Oh goody - endless queues of high-level characters farming mobs all day, every day, to outfit their low-level characters and sell at auction houses.  The game REALLY needs more of that.

You're thinking only in terms of WOW's design. Not all MMOs are EQ/WOW copies.

^True that, however, I dont think this is the solution to this "problem"... Good idea, tho'!

Originally posted by neosapience

.....Grouping should be required for difficult tasks and the rewards should be unique and appropriate......
 

Exactly WHAT is your solution? How does Gear Decay solve your above "requirement" any better than BoP?

Hmmm, let me see. So a fancy raid item isnt BoP/BoE but it has Gear Decay. Right?  So "group players" can thus sell their raid loots to "solo's". Explain to me how that makes the group rewards "unique and appropriate"? Because it seems to me that any solo with enough time to grind gold can now acquire any items a groupey would normally have access to. Thats breaking your first requirement is it not?

Also, you mention BoP causes frustration. What frustration?

You then go on about no BoP, and Skill based MMOs, would equal more MMOs worth playing. Care to elaborate? And isnt this a thread about Group vs Solo play?

Oh, and if you do move from a Gear based to Skill based MMO, exactly what does that solve for Group vs Solo play. At this point perhaps you should define the exact problem your solving. As your current post just seems to be more of a generalised rant against BoP/Gear based games.

Lastly, if the rewards for Grouping are not item based or gear dependance is greatly reduced in the game, than the use of BoP or Item Decay would be something of a moot point with respect to solving the group vs solo issue. Because items wouldnt be the motivating factor to begin with, so who would really care....

Originally posted by mutombo55

Exactly WHAT is your solution? How does Gear Decay solve your above "requirement" any better than BoP?

Hmmm, let me see. So a fancy raid item isnt BoP/BoE but it has Gear Decay. Right?  So "group players" can thus sell their raid loots to "solo's". Explain to me how that makes the group rewards "unique and appropriate"? Because it seems to me that any solo with enough time to grind gold can now acquire any items a groupey would normally have access to. Thats breaking your first requirement is it not?

Also, you mention BoP causes frustration. What frustration?

You then go on about no BoP, and Skill based MMOs, would equal more MMOs worth playing. Care to elaborate? And isnt this a thread about Group vs Solo play?

Oh, and if you do move from a Gear based to Skill based MMO, exactly what does that solve for Group vs Solo play. At this point perhaps you should define the exact problem your solving. As your current post just seems to be more of a generalised rant against BoP/Gear based games.

Lastly, if the rewards for Grouping are not item based or gear dependance is greatly reduced in the game, than the use of BoP or Item Decay would be something of a moot point with respect to solving the group vs solo issue. Because items wouldnt be the motivating factor to begin with, so who would really care....

 

1. I never said or even insinuated that gear decay would solve any issue related to BoP.

2. Players that acquire group rewards will get them quicker and have them sooner than anyone else. Generally, I dislike gear based games. They reward people by making them stronger, which in turn makes it easier to gain more rewards. This is unfair to anyone that didn't start playing the game when it first came out (especially where PvP is concerned).

3. Have you ever gotten an epic item you couldn't freaking use?!?!? BoP can kiss my butt.

4. Group play is fun because of class dynamics. It's game play that makes a game worth playing, not the gear you have.

5. Gear does not have to be the only way you can reward people for grouping. Think outside the box.

Originally posted by neosapience

Of course, that would throw a monkey wrench into most game developers business models, so they'd have to find some other way of getting people to do the same things over and over and over again. Maybe even *gasp*, dare I say, add more content.
 

That is never going to be workable because content is so expensive to make. A MMO needs like $50M to make. Can you imagine increasing the content by a factor of 2?

WOW has a lot of polished content but i don't think even blizzard can make enough content to to do away with BoP items.

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Originally posted by neosapience
2. Players that acquire group rewards will get them quicker and have them sooner than anyone else. Generally, I dislike gear based games. They reward people by making them stronger, which in turn makes it easier to gain more rewards. This is unfair to anyone that didn't start playing the game when it first came out (especially where PvP is concerned).
3. Have you ever gotten an epic item you couldn't freaking use?!?!? BoP can kiss my butt.
4. Group play is fun because of class dynamics. It's game play that makes a game worth playing, not the gear you have.

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2. Progression is the name of the game for RPGs. You could have an interesting game still, with progression being purely non-gear, but gear is such a simple (and fairly logical: get a magic sword, become stronger) way of making progression take on different forms that you'd have to have something pretty compelling to not want gear progression.

For instance, a game where each character finds their own self-aware sentient weapon which has its own progression and talent tree sort of system. Such a game could probably be interesting enough to forgo the standard gear system.

WOW is hardly "unfair" to anyone who didn't start playing when the game first came out. Except for PVP, but if you want fair PVP you do what I do: play other genres which do competitive PVP better (FPS, RTS, Fighting, etc) But for PVE, someone who bought WOW for the first time today would have just as enjoyable an experience as anyone and I doubt they'd care too much about level 80 characters having insane gear, because they're in the newbie zones enjoying that experience (and if they're not enjoying it, it's not because of gear issues.)

3. Making everything BOE would utterly destroy any semblance of item economy. Suddenly nobody would run anything but the best instances, since everything else can be bought cheaply on the auction house because a few farmers saturate the market with items.

It would be an absolutely terrible change to any WOW-like MMORPG.

4. I totally agree. A game's gameplay is 95% of the fun, and games without fun gameplay don't last long for me. Item progression is there to make a solid game even more fun and interesting; it doesn't make the game itself.

Originally posted by Dibdabs

Originally posted by neosapience

I think every MMO would be better off if they didn't use BoP or BoE.

Oh goody - endless queues of high-level characters farming mobs all day, every day, to outfit their low-level characters and sell at auction houses.  The game REALLY needs more of that.

In DAoC gear was degradeable. It would wear out and need repair, or possibly break.

Gear had a con, similar to mobs, green, blue, red, purple, etc.

If you wore gear that was way above your level, it would wear out very quickly, and was very expensive to repair. So, you COULD hand your alt or a newb uber gear, but if they used it, it would just turn to junk very quickly. PLayers often tended to hang on to upper  level gear and use it when they leveled so it wouldn't be a waste.

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

 

2. Progression is the name of the game for RPGs. You could have an interesting game still, with progression being purely non-gear, but gear is such a simple (and fairly logical: get a magic sword, become stronger) way of making progression take on different forms that you'd have to have something pretty compelling to not want gear progression.

For instance, a game where each character finds their own self-aware sentient weapon which has its own progression and talent tree sort of system. Such a game could probably be interesting enough to forgo the standard gear system.

WOW is hardly "unfair" to anyone who didn't start playing when the game first came out. Except for PVP, but if you want fair PVP you do what I do: play other genres which do competitive PVP better (FPS, RTS, Fighting, etc) But for PVE, someone who bought WOW for the first time today would have just as enjoyable an experience as anyone and I doubt they'd care too much about level 80 characters having insane gear, because they're in the newbie zones enjoying that experience (and if they're not enjoying it, it's not because of gear issues.)

3. Making everything BOE would utterly destroy any semblance of item economy. Suddenly nobody would run anything but the best instances, since everything else can be bought cheaply on the auction house because a few farmers saturate the market with items.

It would be an absolutely terrible change to any WOW-like MMORPG.

4. I totally agree. A game's gameplay is 95% of the fun, and games without fun gameplay don't last long for me. Item progression is there to make a solid game even more fun and interesting; it doesn't make the game itself.

2. Removing BoP wouldn't remove progression, it simply allows for a different type of progression, one that is accessible by all players. Not everyone has the time or desire to constantly raid in the hopes of getting what they need. And if you don't think WoW is unfair to new players, try starting a new character right now and don't tell anyone who you are. If you're an average gamer, I guarantee you'll never be able to get into a high end raid or compete in PvP. BTW, I don't play WoW for these very reasons, as well as the simple fact that PvE in WoW is utterly boring for me.

3. This is a problem with how the economy is run, not with BoE or anything else. Do we have BoE items in real life? No.

4. If a game is worth playing you could remove looted items completely and it wouldn't matter.

I really don't see why this is such a big issue. If everyone did group all the time and got all the best rewards, everyone would end up with the same gear anyway. So much for feeling special.

There is no developer created solution to fit all games. If given the freedom and tools to allow players to decide the solution will occur naturally. Developers just have to watch for when "fun" occurs and make sure its protected. Most of the time when people start having fun outside of developer content, the developers destroy it because thats not what they planned. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by neosapience 

1. I never said or even insinuated that gear decay would solve any issue related to BoP.

2. Players that acquire group rewards will get them quicker and have them sooner than anyone else. Generally, I dislike gear based games. They reward people by making them stronger, which in turn makes it easier to gain more rewards. This is unfair to anyone that didn't start playing the game when it first came out (especially where PvP is concerned).

3. Have you ever gotten an epic item you couldn't freaking use?!?!? BoP can kiss my butt.

4. Group play is fun because of class dynamics. It's game play that makes a game worth playing, not the gear you have.

5. Gear does not have to be the only way you can reward people for grouping. Think outside the box.

sigh....

1) What is the problem with Group Play vs Solo play you are addressing?

2) What is your solution to this specific problem?