Originally posted by EricDanie

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

Things are changing.

For the worse or better, that part is based on perception.  I don't care what the market is doing, because there will always be a competitor willing to give me something I want. When the day comes that I can't find that, I think we will have much bigger problems than MMOs.

I also expected this since Gold-Seller became a common topic. Gold-sellers and buyers may have been a sore point for developers as it hurt the game, but i'm certain CEOs and Investors were moaning that the money wasn't going to the company.

There is a HUGE portion of the market willing to pay more than the monthly subscription fee, and the companies very much want that money coming to the game rather than a gold/character seller.

I shrug at it... when companies offered paid character transfers and other services for a fee... I knew things would change.

The sun still rises in the east and sets in the west.
Empires, cultures, and customs rise and fall.
I'll change to keep up with it.

Speaking from a profit viewpoint:

When you keep RMT illegal you also keep an influx of banned players purchasing new accounts, while you keep those that utterly hate RMT (yes, this people exist, and no matter how much you call them trolls, they've shown their presence in here and in CO forums defending their view of what is the limit in legal RMT transactions and that offering in-game items be it for show or for functions is trespassing that limit, especially when there is already a retail cost and monthly fees to support the game from their part).

They want that money going to illegal RMTs, but they will lose the customers that hate RMT past a certain level.

And yeah, those that accept this new level of RMT are actually speeding the process of whatever the next level may be (or actually stopping the process), you should be concerned unless you don't mind spending more and more to play a game because that's what will happen.

Fact is that it is much profitable for developers to provide a game based on how much money you spend rather than how much time you spend, and this is when games stop being games, at least when we're talking about the original purpose of games.

You sound as if you are of an older MMO mentality. The new customer base is raised on the concept of small purchases from a digital market place. XBox/Windows Live, Playstation Store, or Wii Shop. Perhaps even Steam for small games?

It isn't just in MMOs, but an entire gaming industry where small games or addons are being sold for less than $5 a piece. A time when players understand and accept microtransactions without blinking an eye. Subscriptions are fading when it comes to digital delivery of entertainment.

Sure many of us MMO players will gripe about it, but what about the new faces in the market in 5 years? What about just 1-2?

On my colored text... I don't ever spend more than I want. When that time comes where I can't afford it or don't want to pay... i stop playing.

You seem to understand that developers don't want money over a length of time... and the only real point I have to make on that is that I blame "World/Server Firsts". A new generation that wants it faster and better than other players, while asking developers to keep up with content the players push through. A rate that is quicker than Dev's working on a subscription income want...

Making new content at a rate which can keep up with the "World/Server Firsts" generation of MMO players has got to be very difficult on a subscription based plan. To speed up content output, you need more subscriptions... which in itself brings in other costs.

But... by putting more of the burden of content creation costs on the player who wants it faster and better... you are able to get the money you need quicker. Charging based on development costs, and not a "standard industry rate", is fair and smart in my mind.

Sure they could raise monthly subscription costs... but no one likes a rate hike and few will believe or accept a true/correct explanation.

RMT's APPEAR cheaper at $5 dollars a dungeon... and putting in a purchase-point system also helps that perception.

*shrug* You claim this is a problem we players should care about... but I believe this problem was made BY the players.

One of the areas that I think RMTs bring up is the question of entitlement.

There are some people who feel that if a game puts cosmetics or content for a premium, that users are now being forced to pay extra for something that should be part of a "content update", as covered by their monthly subscription (if applicable). Official expansion packs, which are essentially roll-up releases have been sold for years with minimal complaint and typically sell for $30 USD. Then again, expectations on what are included in an Ex[. Pack are typically much more significant than mini-updates, cosmetic items, etc.

There are others who become enraged if users are able to purchase items that give players who purchase items an edge - whether it be levelling faster, better stats on equipment, etc - over players who do not. This is some truth to this, but many RMTs now state that "comparable" items are available outside of the shops (even if sometimes very difficult to attain).

At the end of the day, each company makes a decision regarding the business model that they believe the game can use to be not only profitable on day one, but create a sustainable business over the span of several years. Each player has to make a choice whether or not they want to not only play a game, but if the business model is acceptable to them, understanding what they will (and will not) get for their money. A company that plans to be successful should be very up-front and detailed as to what this means.

Originally posted by Xasapis

To elderotter:

www.champions-online.com/node/92892

Bullet no.1 deals with appearances.

Bullet no.2 deals with account management tools

Bullet no.3 deals with ... nothing, just a comment

Bullet no.4 opens all powers (anything that has a game effect) into microtransaction, as long as it can obtained ingame as well.

 

First of all, keep in mind that they will definitely keep the RMT items desirable, so they can sell. How much desirable, depends on how much they can get away with before the subscription paying crowd starts yelling "murder". Also it's not unreasonable to think that the less subscriptions they have, the more areas of the game will be covered with RMT to compensate.

Also please think a bit down the line, when the game is established and lets say that there are three tiers of dungeons. The majority of the players are old, so they are working their way on the last tier, while very few people bother with tier 1. Unfortunately, that's where the powers to advance you to tier2 dungeons are, for a new player. So you are facing either hoping that a unpopular tier1 happens at some point, or you just buy the powers and move on to the next tier.

Bottom line, it creates a precedence I'm not willing to be a part of, whether some people think it's the future or not. It is my choice not to be part of this particular type of future.

Well, I have chosen to try the game - specifically because of the classless or perhaps semi-classless builds and the nemesis play.  I will not use the RMT stores, I do not care about the fluff items and if I cannot earn the ingame items for sale so be it.  If the game is fun I will play, if not then I will quit.  All they will get from me is the game cost and the monthly sub after the first month if I am still playing.

 However, having said that, I am more than happy to play single player games. I like strategy games - playing EU III with all the current expansions and Vampire the Masquerade: Blood Lines. I also have several others like the Witcher that I have not played through.  I know these companies think we are all suckers, but they will eventually end in cutting their own throats by producing money sinks that have no real entertainment value.  Hopefully, from their ashes, new companies will arise that have learned that particular lesson.  Well, one can hope anyways.  This is just my opinion.

Originally posted by EricDanie

The news become worse and worse at every announcement.

Superhero MMO with monthly fee, retail cost and costume restrictions based on you spending extra money along with many others that will squeeze some money out of you. Great.

It amazes me how people only acknowledge what they want....read and understand the whole damn article and then post.  This argument is retarded.  MOST games have monthly fees, almost all games have retail costs, and there are no costume restrictions in the game.  If by costume restrictions you are referring to the item mall costumes enhancements then you must have skipped the part where they said if you can buy then you can earn it in the game.  Jeeeez people...READ THE WHOLE DAMN THING.

Originally posted by thafireball

...If by costume restrictions you are referring to the item mall costumes enhancements then you must have skipped the part where they said if you can buy then you can earn it in the game.  Jeeeez people...READ THE WHOLE DAMN THING.

I think you misread the statement (not trying to flame you here, just clarifying). It says "Any micro-transaction that has a game effect can also be earned in the game through play." The key phrase was "a game effect," and, unless they're using unusual definitions of those terms as they apply to MMOs, that means things like stat bonuses, weapons/damage bonuses, potions, or any object that would change your character's performance. Costume skins do none of those things, and the line about aesthetic items was a separate bullet point. They will be selling aesthetic costume options, and it seems very unlikely that those costume options will be made available via gameplay. None of the City of Heroes/Villains costume packs (sold out-of-game) were ever made available by any other means.

I actually like games with Microtransactions.

My little brother is in college -- he plays WoW 20+ hours a week.

I work a fulltime job and play 8 hours a week.  He gets items I don't have time to get and he wants me to run dungeons that I am "not geared enough" to run. 

Now with Microtransactions I have a choice -- I can play the game and keep hoping for a drop or trying to craft an item -- or I can go online, buy the item I need so people consider me "geared enough" and then start questing with my brother.  When dungeons have a gear level requirement -- to do Uldar most people want Tier 7 at least gear as an example -- well if I don't have time to run Naxx enough to get geared up for Uldar -- I can pay a few bucks and start questing with my bro.

As long as people are not forced into Microtransactions -- I don't see the problem.  The only issue is if you measure your e-peen because you have Tier 8 before everyone else and think that actually means something... until Tier 9 comes out...

To make poeple happy they could always change the name of items.  Like if you get an item drop it could be named "Gloves of the Eagle" where as if you bought it off the Games store they could be "Gloves of the Eagle B" or something, same stats and whatnot, just letting people know "hey Wolfgangpg bought these".  I wouldn't care, but this way e-peens can still feel good about themselves.

To me this reeks of greed and foreshadowing on the part of the company. I know C.R.E.A.M. , but come on....they are using the same game engine that they used for CoX. Not only that, but to charge full price for the box, full price for a sub AND a MT store? Why? Like I said if they are charging a little less for either of the other 2 and compensating with a MT store I wouldn't have a problem. But I don't think that's gonna happen.

And to the sheep that suggest that all MMOs are heading in this direction so deal with it, I wonder how many of those same people would cringe at the thought of someone being able to buy a full set of OMEGA gear...but no no wait.....you can still earn a set through the game so no biggie right? Um hm.....one born eeevery minute.

Originally posted by SwampRob

The money issues aside, there's something else in that post that steers me away from this game.   It implies (I admit, it does not implicitly state) that the best rewards will only be available to groups.    In other words, if you're a soloer, the OMEGA system is not for you.

I pass on this game.

no offence, but so are many other MMOs, for example, WOW, its is much easier to get good end game gear by rading, and you cant raid solo :)

Hurray now us people with money can have much better gear and level faster that the ones that dont have.

It all depends on the implementation. However, RMT does open the floodgates for abuse by the developers, especially if the game is not as a big success as they have anticipated. The biggest problems in my opinion are:

• Content that otherwise would be offered as a packaged subscription deal is now artificially diverted into the RMT shops.
• The wording leaves anything and everything open for purchase. If not at launch, certainly at some point in the future.
• If the RMT is not producing enough revenue, more resources will be diverted to be purchased from it. Therefore, more development time will be allocated to RMT. Thus subscribers basically fund the development of RMT content.

As I said in another post, it is their prerogative to monetise their business as they see fit. In the same manner, it is my prerogative to accept that model of service payment or not. As for the values themselves, I wouldn't mind paying 50euros instead of 15 for a subscription that would periodically add content into the game. Paying however a subscription so as to fund the development of RMT? No thanks.

Originally posted by thafireball

Originally posted by EricDanie

The news become worse and worse at every announcement.

Superhero MMO with monthly fee, retail cost and costume restrictions based on you spending extra money along with many others that will squeeze some money out of you. Great.

 

It amazes me how people only acknowledge what they want....read and understand the whole damn article and then post.  This argument is retarded.  MOST games have monthly fees, almost all games have retail costs, and there are no costume restrictions in the game.  If by costume restrictions you are referring to the item mall costumes enhancements then you must have skipped the part where they said if you can buy then you can earn it in the game.  Jeeeez people...READ THE WHOLE DAMN THING.

I think you should try to READ, before attacking someone else.

Costumes are items that have NO effect in the game, thus you can be pretty sure that for the most unique and cool looking costumes you have to pay for in their item shop!

Seriously, I hope this complete retarded crap like P2P + item mall is going to backfire HARD! So it gets of this planet's surface ASAP!

Item Malls and Cash Shops belong in Free 2 Play games. As these games have no monthly subscription fee and often only available as free digital download. Cash Shops and Item Malls are the only way for the company to make money.

With Pay 2 Play games. Then you have retail box sales and monthly subscription fees. Combined with character transfer services, rename services, etc. And later expansion pack sales. They should be able to make more then enough money!

Pay 2 Play + Item Malls aka Cash shops = PURE GREED ! Pure and simple!

It's like selling a car, but basically you only getting the frame and the engine. If you want to actually drive it, you have to go to the Item Shop and buy the platework and paint, steering wheel, seats, wheels.

And ofcourse. For the frame and engine. You pay the exact same as you normaly would for a full car a year ago.

Oh... and the car salesman sells this as an ENHANCEMENT and IMPROVEMENT and in the BEST INTEREST for YOU the customer ofcourse. As you can now decide witch platework color, wich seats, wich wheels, wich steering wheel you want on your car.

(ofcourse you always could, even a year before... but let's leave that tiny detail away now shall we).

Originally posted by Guillermo197 

I think you should try to READ, before attacking someone else.

Costumes are items that have NO effect in the game, thus you can be pretty sure that for the most unique and cool looking costumes you have to pay for in their item shop!

Cryptic obviously stole this idea from what NCSoft did with CoX.  They started introducing the costume sets for a price while I was still playing but I can honestly say none of the pieces they introduced appealed to me.  I liked the way my costume looked already.

My point is I highly doubt that the cash shop costume sets will be the most unique or cool looking.  They will just be different than what is available to everyone else.  If you feel the set(s) offered in the cash shop are worth the money to look a certain way then you can purchase them, if not, you can just use the hundreds of pieces already provided to you.

In other words, no one is saying you "have to" purchase them.

Seriously, I hope this complete retarded crap like P2P + item mall is going to backfire HARD! So it gets of this planet's surface ASAP!

I doubt that.  MT is a way of life, at least in the US.  Cell phone plans, cable TV, XBox Live, and insurance plans are just a few examples of micro transactions that a lot of us deal with already.

Item Malls and Cash Shops belong in Free 2 Play games. As these games have no monthly subscription fee and often only available as free digital download. Cash Shops and Item Malls are the only way for the company to make money.

With Pay 2 Play games. Then you have retail box sales and monthly subscription fees. Combined with character transfer services, rename services, etc. And later expansion pack sales. They should be able to make more then enough money!

Pay 2 Play + Item Malls aka Cash shops = PURE GREED ! Pure and simple!

I feel that's a little harsh.  It's simply a business plan.  The idea behind any for-profit company is to maximize profits.  Who are you to tell a company that they've made enough money, no need to try to make any more?

They are just following in the footsteps of an already established model.  CoX and the SoE games are already doing it.

It's like selling a car, but basically you only getting the frame and the engine. If you want to actually drive it, you have to go to the Item Shop and buy the platework and paint, steering wheel, seats, wheels.

And ofcourse. For the frame and engine. You pay the exact same as you normaly would for a full car a year ago.

Actually it's more like buying a Scion.  You get the whole car, but it's the basic model.  If you want the chrome muffler tip, the 21" black rims, and the tribal decal on the sides of the doors, that's going to be extra.  Just like in CO, no one is forcing the car buyer to get those extras, they could just be happy with the base car.  No one would care but them.

I find it interesting that you chose to say they are leaving parts of the game out and then charging for them.  This may be the case, who knows, but based on other games that have used the same model I believe that my Scion example is a lot closer to what reality will be.

Oh... and the car salesman sells this as an ENHANCEMENT and IMPROVEMENT and in the BEST INTEREST for YOU the customer ofcourse. As you can now decide witch platework color, wich seats, wich wheels, wich steering wheel you want on your car.

(ofcourse you always could, even a year before... but let's leave that tiny detail away now shall we).

Thanks, you just gave another great example of MT in every day life.  Car sales.  Just FYI.  Getting something besides the stock platework, basic seats, basic hubcaps, and basic steering wheel has always cost extra.

Originally posted by patrikd23

Hurray now us people with money can have much better gear and level faster that the ones that dont have.

Works for me. ^^  But some how, I doubt thats what they have in mind.

So people have had the argument about being able to pay for what someone else worked hard for and all that, blah blah blah.  I fall in the "I don't give a rat's a** what other people do" camp and it certainly doesn't devalue my experience or my feeling of achievement.

Instead, I just get really irritated when I feel like I'm being hit for more money when I'm already shelling out $15/month.  I understand the micro-transaction model in free, and even cheap, games, but I'd venture to say they'll be charging the full monthly and then offering their store in addition.

Yes, yes, I know, "You don't have to buy anything from the store noob."  That's not the point.  If everything they were charging for was achievable through play I would almost be okay with it, but there are going to be costume pieces and such that I will *never* be able to get unless I shell out extra cash beyond what I'm already paying them and that's just annoying.

It's annoying enough in CoX, and that's only costume items that they, usually, eventually phase into the game (you pay to get access to the costume pieces months before the people who don't want to pay extra).

It just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.  I hate feeling like I'm getting nickled and dimed for something I'm already paying for.

P.S. I totally understand charging for character transfers, name changes, etc, because those charges discourage skipping around servers or changing their names all the time.  It's the other stuff that bugs me.

Originally posted by patrikd23

Hurray now us people with money can have much better gear and level faster that the ones that dont have.

Which doesn't harm you at all.  Do you enjoy the game less cause the guy levels faster than you?
 

I guess I should bitch now because I work 50 hrs a week and only play around 8hrs therefore the kid that plays 20hrs a week has better gear and levels faster than me... /cry.

Just cause some person has a suit of the best armor in the game -- it has 0 effect on my enjoyment.  I still get to play the game with my crew, do my instances and my quests.  The guy with the full set of gear will have it easier, but that is his game and he paid for it to be that way.  He will have spent more money and will probably burn out faster because he doesn't have buy any gear.