Originally posted by Inzra

It's not that I don't like grouping and doing a dungeon or group objective of some sort... and crafting is also fun. I even like to rp.

it's fun when you down a boss for the first time, or just succeeds with a team against all odds, but...

I don't really raid, I rarely get there since I tend to move on to some other game or spend time trying too many classes or something. So my PvE experince is usally from grouping before endgame. I do a groupobjective for a certain level a few times, but then I move on to leveling - so I don't really understand it when people say "Do it again?" for the nth time.

To me the ultimate challenge in these games is allways PvP, especially against different enemies every time, cause then you don't see their weaknesses by observing them over several battles. To me that's alot more thrilling to win a PvP battle.

That's why I don't get why there's so much PvE focus in games. With focus I mean everything from gameplay, restrctions on PvP, pure PvE servers.

...I suck at PvP btw...

To be honest MMO's are always going to be most based around PVE with certain expections. Also in most games its fairly easy to know how to beat someone just by looking at their class.

I can see both sides. PvP is fun, and PvE is OK if done right. I loved PvE in EQ. I hate it in every other game. Its just too easy.

I love pvp, and especially when I'm raiding against others in pvp alongside an organized team. Back when I used to play Silkroad Online (and it was still good) I made friends with a guild that consistended only of thieves. Since I was a thief, I joined them often on merchant raids which involved camping out along major merchant trade routes and using structured teamwork (i.e. rogues scouted ahead, tankers stood on the road, support buffers/healers hid behind the tankers, etc.) to overcome our enemies, the merchants and their bodyguards, the hunters.

Heh heh heh, I think I am the pure example of what happens when structured teamwork, pvp, and raiding go hand to hand...

Originally posted by Bekkr

People like to succeed, and let's face it, it's pretty hard to actually fail in most modern MMOs in PvE.

Didn't WoW totally change its endgame system because only 3% of the games population reach the final raid dungeon?

Other games like EQ2 and FFXI have some hardcore pve also.

Tbh Eve and DAoC are the only games that have challenging pvp all other MMOs basically have a more challenging Pve over thier pvp mechanics.

the majority of MMOs have yet to do pvp right so imo pve is superior.

so I totally disagree with your "Fail" comment.

Ill take my place in the PVE crowd

I even go a step further and say that i personally hate PvP games and even Games with a PvP part.

I came to this because of class design and balance in the so called "modern" games.

Somehow, every time a game with a PvP part seems to have serious issues with that.

They design classes that are great for PvP but suck in PvE or are shifting skills and actions around after the usual crys of "thats unfair" hits the message boards. In far more then one case a class, or skill set, gets totally gimped in the process of such "balance" issues. Usually as a result you can totally screw your char for PvE cause of a nerf bat hitting your back.

I always wondered why the hell Anarchy Online could manage to separate the mechanics between PvP and PvE, and noone picked up that concept. At the very beginning even Blizzard claimed ( called from memory ) that they would be able to balance chars without influencing the PvE aspect. Well seems i was too faithful once again.

Another point is, that once PvP is announced a swarm of ppl demand very loud that PvP will be meaningful. Strangely, if i look closely at what they really want, it boils down to the "i want to be able to attack those PvE carebear at everytime and everywhere" thing. As i am a carebear ( Im still laughing about that term ) im somewhat annoyed because there seems to be a very loud group that want to force me to be cannon fodder for them.

In conclusion i detest PvP because it usually influences my game experience, even if i dosent take part of it. So im still hoping for a good old pure PvE game, even if i know that this is very unlikely.

Originally posted by Toquio3

I dont like pvp because it brings out the worst in people. .

Brings out the worst in SOME people. But those same people probably carry those character traits in many aspects of their life you just don't notice them till they're directed at you or someone next to you.

PvP is nothing more than virtual competition.  Sports are competition. Hell board games and card games are competition.

The majority of people conduct themselves in a decent manner. You are always going to have your T.O.'s , Phil Helmuth's, and John McEnroe's, regardless of any situation. 

I'd counter your statement and say, I"ve seen PVP bring out the best in people too.

Originally posted by Cephus404

I detest most PvP with a passion, I find no fun in standing toe-to-toe with some snot-nosed kid who gets off on beating other people up because in RL they're pathetic 97-lb weaklings with no real talents to speak of, certainly being able to type in English isn't one of the things they do well.  If I wanted to do that, I'd be playing an FPS.  Instead, I'm playing against a world, that's why we play MMOs to begin with.  If you just wanted a PvP match, why would you ever need more than a cage or an arena?

That is the worst and most ignorant rants I have heard in a while.   I most definitely am not  a snot-nosed kid, 97 lbs, weak, or have a problem typing in English. In Fact I can type a few phrases in multiple languages.

Wier Haben das schlussel?

Ginko wa doko dess ka?

Te gusta la playa.

Kiitos Paljon!

Point being, most of the pvp'rs I"ve met are in the age range of 20-40 , male and female, avg. joes to business men and women, to health care providers, housewives, and every job in between.

They are generally just not challenged by predictable and dull A.I. encounters and prefer to work within a group with a common goal against other players.

I don't hate PvP.  I don't even particularly dislike it.  But I tend to view MMORPGs primarily as a social game, and as a cooperative game, which causes me to mainly play group-based PvE.  Competing against other players is simply not the reason that I pick up an MMO.

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Toquio3

I dont like pvp because it brings out the worst in people. .

 

Brings out the worst in SOME people. But those same people probably carry those character traits in many aspects of their life you just don't notice them till they're directed at you or someone next to you.

PvP is nothing more than virtual competition.  Sports are competition. Hell board games and card games are competition.

The majority of people conduct themselves in a decent manner. You are always going to have your T.O.'s , Phil Helmuth's, and John McEnroe's, regardless of any situation. 

I'd counter your statement and say, I"ve seen PVP bring out the best in people too.

I have to agree with Greenie on this thought too. I've seen pvp bring out some interesting yet fun personalities in people with friendly competition.

Originally posted by Tecknic

I don't hate PvP.  I don't even particularly dislike it.  But I tend to view MMORPGs primarily as a social game, and as a cooperative game, which causes me to mainly play group-based PvE.  Competing against other players is simply not the reason that I pick up an MMO.

Well generally in other games I"ve player DaoC and Warhammer you could not talk to the opposing faction anyways so it didn't affect social time with them anyways. 

I also prefer group based PvP .  Solo pvp generally comes down to spec , archetype, and gear just watching the dice roll. YOu might as well be playing craps or rock,paper,scissors with each other. 

Because I view MMORPGS as a social game as well I play group-based pvp.

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Cephus404

I detest most PvP with a passion, I find no fun in standing toe-to-toe with some snot-nosed kid who gets off on beating other people up because in RL they're pathetic 97-lb weaklings with no real talents to speak of, certainly being able to type in English isn't one of the things they do well.  If I wanted to do that, I'd be playing an FPS.  Instead, I'm playing against a world, that's why we play MMOs to begin with.  If you just wanted a PvP match, why would you ever need more than a cage or an arena?

 

That is the worst and most ignorant rants I have heard in a while.   I most definitely am not  a snot-nosed kid, 97 lbs, weak, or have a problem typing in English. In Fact I can type a few phrases in multiple languages.

Wier Haben das schlussel?

Ginko wa doko dess ka?

Te gusta la playa.

Kiitos Paljon!

Point being, most of the pvp'rs I"ve met are in the age range of 20-40 , male and female, avg. joes to business men and women, to health care providers, housewives, and every job in between.

They are generally just not challenged by predictable and dull A.I. encounters and prefer to work within a group with a common goal against other players.

 

Greenie, I must also quote this post because this is a beautiful thought (the underlined segment)  you have here especially. Sometimes, players like challenges. Sometimes, people like me like to form coordinated groups and raid others (which can mean either slaughtering single people or being challenged by another raid group which leads to interesting battles). Whatever the case, pvp can always be fun, whether it is by raiding or by friendly competition to test your skills against the toughest opponents online of them all: other real life players.

PvP ruins most games. Thats why I play Phantasy Star Universe. Those with greed tend to fail and just dissapear. A Person's Prowess is based upon there ability to play the game and play with others rather then somone who is just out for themself and no one else. It helps sort out all the riff raff and just the good players are left. Of course there is way more to do then what you find in other games that are designed purely for PvP for something to actualy do in the game which would probably ruin the game if PvP wasn't there for alot of them.

Originally posted by RamenThief7

Greenie, I must also quote this post because this is a beautiful thought (the underlined segment)  you have here especially. Sometimes, players like challenges. Sometimes, people like me like to form coordinated groups and raid others (which can mean either slaughtering single people or being challenged by another raid group which leads to interesting battles). Whatever the case, pvp can always be fun, whether it is by raiding or by friendly competition to test your skills against the toughest opponents online of them all: other real life players.

Yea, I guess I should have typed "that they feel is dull and unchallenging".   I've always thought that the challenge was to figure out how to do the raid. I hate all the wiki's and spoilers on the web because that takes the challenge out of it.

An SG I was running with for a week or two before I quit, used to time themselves  when running the main enounters. With one group and I wasn't even full level yet we beat Recluse's Victory in 40 minutes. WE didn't kill every trash mob there but we got a lot of them. That was fun as far as pve goes and an interesting way to make pve a challenge.

I"m still a fan of removing all AE  crowd control, all taunts , and PBAOE and Range AOE spells should be on a long timer of no less than 60 seconds.  Increase the difficulty and ai of trash mobs to assist each other by various means and create a lot more of them. Maybe then PVE encounters could be more exciting for me, especially if they were timed and had a few more puzzles to unlock.

Originally posted by TyezBaylorum

PvP ruins most games. Thats why I play Phantasy Star Universe. Those with greed tend to fail and just dissapear. A Person's Prowess is based upon there ability to play the game and play with others rather then somone who is just out for themself and no one else. It helps sort out all the riff raff and just the good players are left. Of course there is way more to do then what you find in other games that are designed purely for PvP for something to actualy do in the game which would probably ruin the game if PvP wasn't there for alot of them.

Bad implementation of pvp ruins most games.  Putting pvp in as an afterthought ruins aspects of games. You act as if pvp just makes a person out for themselves but I'd argue the loot whoring has done far worse to communities than pvp ever has.

DaoC a game designed around pvp in a group setting was not ruined by pvp it flourished because of it. Introduction of overpowered items ruined daoc.

I've posted it before and I"m going to post it again until people will stop acting as if PVP'rs do not have any respect, compassion, or humanity about them..

www.youtube.com/watch

To understand PvE, I think its important to look at the roots of it. Before most players called it PvE, there were games called SRPG's. Actually back then, the games didn't even have the disctinction of the "S". They were just RPG's. Many players arrived at MMO's from this genre back in the early years. Many of us still play these types of games today.

But I think more experienced gamers have a preference that is directly related to the game, understanding that certain MMO's are built better around one aspect or the other. Generally when I hear PvE, I think more about the journey than the destination. And vice versa for PvP.

edit: add

I have never pvp'd and never will but thats just me.

I like to help - not kill fellow players. IMO there's enough war between humans in RL - I rather battle against AI.

I like to follow story lines, quests and craft without being attacked by fellow players. I like to do my chosen activity when I'm at it without someone deciding otherwise and interrupting it.

I like to aid a fellow player without the worry that they'll lead me to a group of other players and kill me. I like trust not constant uncertainty.

Maybe thats why I never succeed playing an 'evil' character. I just want to help and get my good feelings from that :)

I rather flirt with others than kill them *winks*

Originally posted by spikers14

To understand PvE, I think its important to look at the roots of it. Before most players called it PvE, there were games called SRPG's. Many players arrived at MMO's from this genre back in the early years. Many of us still play these types of games today.

But I think more experienced gamers have a preference that is directly related to the game, understanding that certain MMO's are built better around one aspect or the other. Generally when I hear PvE, I think more about the journey than the destination. And vice versa for PvP.

Actually I used to call it PONG.  To say I don't enjoy pve would be to say I don't like single player console games which would be a lie. I loved Legacy of Kain, Soul Reaver, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, hell I loved Bard's Tale 1 for the pc years ago, but I liked the story, and with these console games at least I get a nice movie to watch at every chapter.

It really comes down to compaines have not done anything really exciting with the pve concept in quite a while. Mythic got kudos for their PQ's but if you look at how missions have been run in City of Heroes for awhile you'd see it's the same basic mechanic.

One action triggers and event that causes another action to trigger an event and so on. It's still not all that entertaining at the moment, but when some developer takes the time to break the mold , it will be.

Originally posted by Flirt

I have never pvp'd and never will but thats just me.

I like to help - not kill fellow players. IMO there's enough war between humans in RL - I rather battle against AI.

I like to follow story lines, quests and craft without being attacked by fellow players. I like to do my chosen activity when I'm at it without someone deciding otherwise and interrupting it.

I like to aid a fellow player without the worry that they'll lead me to a group of other players and kill me. I like trust not constant uncertainty.

Maybe thats why I never succeed playing an 'evil' character. I just want to help and get my good feelings from that :)

I rather flirt with others than kill them *winks*

So if you see a girl with a guy or pursuing a guy you like, do you still flirt with him?  Do you try to outperform people at your job so you get a better position and more money? Have you ever tried to win an argument? Ever played monopoly, checkers, chess, poker, gin, or an organized sport?

To try and connect in game violence and real life violence is a very weak comparison.

As for the underlined comment,, this is why I always agree with having a PVE zone and a PVP zone seperate in games that are not a full freeforall pvp loot type game. DaoC's frontier's being the best example.

Originally posted by kopema

Originally posted by Cephus404

 If you just wanted a PvP match, why would you ever need more than a cage or an arena?

 For the same reason Jeffy Dahlmer didn't become an ultimate fighter.  Some people simply don't appreciate the concept of a "fair fight."

And for anyone who doesn't want to fight fair, why would anyone want to fight against them?  Or do some people get off on cheating?  Are they really that pathetic?

Originally posted by Greenie

They are generally just not challenged by predictable and dull A.I. encounters and prefer to work within a group with a common goal against other players. 

Maybe I'm just not seeing them and I'm really only talking about man-vs-man PvP, not team-based PvP, but in every game I've ever seen it, it's always some rude little kid running around yelling "FIGHT ME!" or in the case of EvE, people lined up around the gates in 0.0 systems ready to blow the crap out of anyone that comes out of the gate that they can gank.  Those are the kind of PvPers I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Greenie

They are generally just not challenged by predictable and dull A.I. encounters and prefer to work within a group with a common goal against other players. 

Maybe I'm just not seeing them and I'm really only talking about man-vs-man PvP, not team-based PvP, but in every game I've ever seen it, it's always some rude little kid running around yelling "FIGHT ME!" or in the case of EvE, people lined up around the gates in 0.0 systems ready to blow the crap out of anyone that comes out of the gate that they can gank.  Those are the kind of PvPers I'm talking about.

Yes, I hate it when I get spammed with the fight me, duel challenges stuff. I prefer open world pvp where I can get the drop on someone.. I will always love DaoC's system the best because you had pvp and pve zones. There was a sense of realm pride until loot whoring came into play. Not to say I dislike solo pvp, but I like it in a game setting contest, not two people bowing at each other in the city. Those are duels and I see them as nothing more than to test out your gear or spec.

EvE is a game based on espionage and treacherous acts. The problem with EvE is you basically only have two points in a sector in any travel desitination.    From the gate to the asteroid field,asteroid field  to the base, base to the gate etc.  There is no real inbetween space for the most part so people are going to camp those areas that they can find action easiest. It takes away from the suprise and stalking factor in pvp for me.

Today's gamer has changed and it's not due to pvp. It is due to the increase of catering to soloer's for pvp ,loot whoring ( the biggest reason) , and a general me , me , me attitude from people  of all playstyles.

I posted that Teletha Memorial video because it was one I attended.  If you look at the links on youtube for daoc memorials, you'll see many from different servers just like it for people who died and 9/11.  We were different gamers back then, we actually cared about the people we played with or against.

It's quite possible that if you'd take the time to get to know pvp'rs, maybe find a good group setting with people you trust for team pvp, and let go of the preconcieved ideas you have about pvp'rs, you might either see why we really enjoy it and that some pvp'rs will be the nicest people you ever met.

Originally posted by Greenie

Yes, I hate it when I get spammed with the fight me, duel challenges stuff. I prefer open world pvp where I can get the drop on someone.. I will always love DaoC's system the best because you had pvp and pve zones. There was a sense of realm pride until loot whoring came into play. Not to say I dislike solo pvp, but I like it in a game setting contest, not two people bowing at each other in the city. Those are duels and I see them as nothing more than to test out your gear or spec.

EvE is a game based on espionage and treacherous acts. The problem with EvE is you basically only have two points in a sector in any travel desitination.    From the gate to the asteroid field,asteroid field  to the base, base to the gate etc.  There is no real inbetween space for the most part so people are going to camp those areas that they can find action easiest. It takes away from the suprise and stalking factor in pvp for me.

Personally, I don't want to get jumped on by someone who wants to randomly attack strangers, that's no fun at all.  I think the problem I always had with EvE is that on any long voyage, often you had no alternative but to travel through 0.0-0.3 sectors, there simply wasn't a safe way to get around period.  So you go popping out of a gate, wanting nothing more than to get to the gate on the other side so you could continue your voyage, only to get gang-raped by a bunch of idiots who shoot at anything that moves.  That's just no fun.

Today's gamer has changed and it's not due to pvp. It is due to the increase of catering to soloer's for pvp ,loot whoring ( the biggest reason) , and a general me , me , me attitude from people  of all playstyles.

I agree with you entirely, but that doesn't change the fact that, even if PvP didn't change the playstyle, the playstyle changed PvP.  There's no such thing as honor, fair play, fair competition, etc.  People take advantage of others, people cheat any way they can, people take advantage of lag, slow connections, latency issues, just so they can say they won.  That's stupid.

I posted that Teletha Memorial video because it was one I attended.  If you look at the links on youtube for daoc memorials, you'll see many from different servers just like it for people who died and 9/11.  We were different gamers back then, we actually cared about the people we played with or against.

It's quite possible that if you'd take the time to get to know pvp'rs, maybe find a good group setting with people you trust for team pvp, and let go of the preconcieved ideas you have about pvp'rs, you might either see why we really enjoy it and that some pvp'rs will be the nicest people you ever met.

But the problem is, I do know PvPers, I reported my direct experiences therewith.  I also said I was limiting that to solo PvPers, doing raids, doing team PvP can be enjoyable once in a while, but to be honest, I'm even bored with all of that most of the time.  It's one thing to play org vs. org, it's another to play some guy against another guy.  It just doesn't interest me, I've had nothing but bad experiences in it and frankly, I'm not at all interested in trying it again.  I don't say that others shouldn't do it or have fun with it, it's just not for me.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by kopema

Originally posted by Cephus404

 If you just wanted a PvP match, why would you ever need more than a cage or an arena?

 For the same reason Jeffy Dahlmer didn't become an ultimate fighter.  Some people simply don't appreciate the concept of a "fair fight."

And for anyone who doesn't want to fight fair, why would anyone want to fight against them?  Or do some people get off on cheating?  Are they really that pathetic?

I believe the existance of cockroach gold/item farmers/sellers and powerleveling jackoff services pretty much answers your question, sadly.

you would of loved star wars galaxies back in 03-06

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Greenie

I agree with you entirely, but that doesn't change the fact that, even if PvP didn't change the playstyle, the playstyle changed PvP.  There's no such thing as honor, fair play, fair competition, etc.  People take advantage of others, people cheat any way they can, people take advantage of lag, slow connections, latency issues, just so they can say they won.  That's stupid.

 

 

I think what changed pvp was pve items becoming more and more powerful.  I've said this in other threads, but because companies have not or refuse to create a better rewards system than loot for pve and they do not let craftersmake the best armor/weapons it has increased the gap. That has ruined any sense of fair play in pvp.

People cheat any way they can as pointed out by another poster here too. Gold farming, powerfleveling services, exploits in encounters. Cheating is not limited pvp'rs. Hell I think using squared or healer's helper is cheating.  I think any of the addon's like cursed, questhelper addons, etc  are cheating. But those are considered acceptable aren't they?  

I've never used macro's to make a chain of skills fire off. I've always clicked each and every skill or key. But people use macro's a ton. Crafter's use them in pve.

Generally when someone is cheating in pvp , other pvp'rs will report them, even allies.  When someone cheats in pve however.. the pve'rs tend to cover it up or use the same exploit.