I agree that games such as StarCraft and WarCraft 3 are games that are easy to learn and hard to master. However a game like World of WarCraft is on the opposite end of the spectrum - easy to learn and easy to master. WoW still does cater to the hardcore, but more in terms of rigorous raiding schedules and availability of time than skill requirements. To master a game like StarCraft you need to be skilled - very skilled. You can, however, be mediocre at most games and still master World of WarCraft.

Originally posted by Axxar

I agree that games such as StarCraft and WarCraft 3 are games that are easy to learn and hard to master. However a game like World of WarCraft is on the opposite end of the spectrum - easy to learn and easy to master. WoW still does cater to the hardcore, but more in terms of rigorous raiding schedules and availability of time than skill requirements. To master a game like StarCraft you need to be skilled - very skilled. You can, however, be mediocre at most games and still master World of WarCraft.

Amen to that. But it wasn't always so, there was a time when 10 year old kids actually couldn't play a lot of the game.

Maybe they mean easy to learn - Hard to master for anyone with a family, work and a life?

Originally posted by Eleazaros

 

Actually you'd be amazed at how often PvE folks "lose".  soloing -- dead.  Group runs -- dead.  Raid runs -- wipe.  etc...  They "lose" all the time in PvE just like PvP.  The PvP myth that PvE folks just can't stand to lose is as inaccurate as the PvE myth that PvP has more griefers.  *BOTH* are very inaccurate.  They are 2 different styles of play based upon competition *AND* cooperation.  In PvP you have as much (or more) group activity as you do in PvE -- it's more the goals of play that people like and dislike.

To put this in perspective another way:  If someone in PvE exploits a bug to beat an encounter, others will be "outraged" but in a far more detached fashion than when you got your butt handed to because your opponent exploited a bug.  One is "unfair" from a distance while the other is right in your face with ranking, standing, gear loss, etc... 

 

ACtually no I wouldn't. PLaying games like City of Heroes, Warhammer, and resubbing to DaoC, all with low populations, I have to solo a LOT. My first 50 in DaoC I solo'd from 48-50 back when levelling was long.  I solo on most of my characters because I'm not into large crappy guilds, with people on powertrips over virtual politics, or full of beggars and idiots. I like a small personal guild. Many times, because of that choice, I will have to solo.

I've been on raids and wiped, I"ve been solo an wiped a lot. I think you mistook what I was trying to say, or I worded it poorly, so I'll try to clarify it.

People who LOVE the loot fest of gear being overpowered and being the deciding factor in combat AI or PvP   NEED and WANT that crutch and advantage. WIthout the crutch of having all this great gear, many of these loot whores know fully well that their gear makes the difference. That doesn't mean all PVE'rs are like that. 

The way I figure it a large portion of PVE'rs would go after loot even if it wasn't stat enhanced because they like to collect and they'll want that shiny sword because it looks badass.  Another group of players get the gear because that's all there is to do. Another group get the gear because you need it to be competitive in pvp. BUT the final group that defend the OP'd nature of items are the ones I have a problem with. Because they are the ones who rely on this gear knowing full well they have better opportunities to get it than others always putting them at an advantage. I could be wrong, but from all my years of gaming, people tend to fall into one of those categories.

as for exploits, Depends on the nature of the exploit and if it's available to everyone. In DaoC you could pbaoe through some walls in the keeps, but everyone had this ability so it didn't bother me. It was just bad coding but everyone benefitted persay.  Now in later years during New Frontiers and after catacombs a class called the Bainshee had a cone attack that could nuke through doors at a keep that nobody else could nuke through. This put only one class and one realm at a distinct advantage. That exploit was one defining factor in me quitting.

Originally posted by Axxar

I agree that games such as StarCraft and WarCraft 3 are games that are easy to learn and hard to master. However a game like World of WarCraft is on the opposite end of the spectrum - easy to learn and easy to master. WoW still does cater to the hardcore, but more in terms of rigorous raiding schedules and availability of time than skill requirements. To master a game like StarCraft you need to be skilled - very skilled. You can, however, be mediocre at most games and still master World of WarCraft.

I have to disagree i have played wow a lot, and its odd no matter where me and my brother god , no matter what guild, or people we are group with we ALWAYS out dps and or heal others. Im talkign about on illidian. (Tho i have not grouped with everyoen on illidian).

Wow's raiding susyem is not everyone equals pro. IT is 5-10 people out of 25 are very goods players, another 5-10 are good, and the rest 15-5 are just ok with a 1-3 baddies often.  Now there are some guilds that only have great players but they are rare. IF you do not realize this your proably just good and not great. Great players often use odd classes to top the dps. Like ele shammies when they didn't top metere or hunters when they didn't top meter, or warriors when they didn't top metere, etc.

That being said even if you are a great player the difference bettween a great player in wow and another game (daoc as an example) is giant. See if wow movement and position and tactics are all dumb, smash away and no brainers and so are most reactions. This was a very complex facet of daoc's game play and thus a better player could futher inflict damage becuase of it.

Originally posted by Jetrpg

Originally posted by Axxar

I agree that games such as StarCraft and WarCraft 3 are games that are easy to learn and hard to master. However a game like World of WarCraft is on the opposite end of the spectrum - easy to learn and easy to master. WoW still does cater to the hardcore, but more in terms of rigorous raiding schedules and availability of time than skill requirements. To master a game like StarCraft you need to be skilled - very skilled. You can, however, be mediocre at most games and still master World of WarCraft.

 

I have to disagree i have played wow a lot, and its odd no matter where me and my brother god , no matter what guild, or people we are group with we ALWAYS out dps and or heal others. Im talkign about on illidian. (Tho i have not grouped with everyoen on illidian).

Wow's raiding susyem is not everyone equals pro. IT is 5-10 people out of 25 are very goods players, another 5-10 are good, and the rest 15-5 are just ok with a 1-3 baddies often.  Now there are some guilds that only have great players but they are rare. IF you do not realize this your proably just good and not great. Great players often use odd classes to top the dps. Like ele shammies when they didn't top metere or hunters when they didn't top meter, or warriors when they didn't top metere, etc.

That being said even if you are a great player the difference bettween a great player in wow and another game (daoc as an example) is giant. See if wow movement and position and tactics are all dumb, smash away and no brainers and so are most reactions. This was a very complex facet of daoc's game play and thus a better player could futher inflict damage becuase of it.

I do get your point but at the same time this line of thinking as flawed as it is and was created by Blizzard and those damage BG dps/heal charts.

Your final totals do no reflect your overall contribution. They give an aspect of it, which is completely reliant on circumstance more than anything. You fight a low level character you do more damage, fight a high one you do less. So if every character you kill in a BG is lower level your dps goes through the chart if someone else has fought higher level toons the whole bg their dps is lower.

If people aren't assisting, dps goes through the roof. Healing goes through the roof. AOE splash damage increases dps ratings.

But I do understand what you're saying that people who play the NOT OP"d Fotm class generally do try harder than people who gravitate to the OP'd class.

A good player assists well, picks targets well, kites well, uses group vs. single  mechanics well, peels well, rezzes,buffs, heals properly, I just wish people would quit using the bg charts and dps/heal numbers as a source for their arguments.

If they can figure out how many kills you have and how many deaths and how many death blows and how much damage you've done and how much you've healed, as well as how many objectives you've captures or stolen etc. etc.

Seems like they could figure out how many of those were even fights or if they had a level difference, seems like they could figure out how often you took out someone solo or assisted others in killing. Seems like they could figure out a percentage of damage you did as incidental "splash" or AoE damage. Seems they could do the same with the amount healed and who you healed. 

And seems they could create an "aura" around objectives to know if you are fighting around/at them or not, even if you don't cap them or steal them or turn them in etc.

And then take ALL of that, and give players XP and "contribution points" or something to be used on rolling for randomly generated greens/blues (even epics I don't care) at the end of the match, along with bonus honor and/or badges.

Jetrpg, I can see why that is your perception, and I have noticed the same. But given how simple I find the game to be compared to deep games like StarCraft/WarCraft, I don't believe this is a matter of skill. The game is so simple and people are playing characters they've leveled from level 1 to 60/70/80, so it makes little sense there's a bunch of people who have no clue what they're doing. The only explanations I can find is that people playing the game in general are either unfamiliar with playing games (WoW has drawn in a lot of people who only play WoW and nothing else) and therefore don't do as well, or because they're doing something else in the meantime (I know a lot of people are watching TV while raiding, for example), or simply plain stupid.

Originally posted by heerobya

If they can figure out how many kills you have and how many deaths and how many death blows and how much damage you've done and how much you've healed, as well as how many objectives you've captures or stolen etc. etc.

Seems like they could figure out how many of those were even fights or if they had a level difference, seems like they could figure out how often you took out someone solo or assisted others in killing. Seems like they could figure out a percentage of damage you did as incidental "splash" or AoE damage. Seems they could do the same with the amount healed and who you healed. 

And seems they could create an "aura" around objectives to know if you are fighting around/at them or not, even if you don't cap them or steal them or turn them in etc.

And then take ALL of that, and give players XP and "contribution points" or something to be used on rolling for randomly generated greens/blues (even epics I don't care) at the end of the match, along with bonus honor and/or badges.

 

Honestly, would you rather they spend all the time, money, and effort on that, or just make more actual content for players of all styles?  Before all the scoreboards you could tell by playing with or watching other players if they were good at their class or not generally. The scoreboard scenarios have skewed many people's visions on what makes a good player, stats or decision making and the unstatistical data such as capping a flag at the right time/buffs/debuffs/ rezzes, etc.

It's the same problem with statistics in sports. Take the NFL a RB has a 1000 yard season one year he's a good RB, the next year he loses most of his offensive line andhe has a 600 yard season. Is he a bad RB now or did the situation and team around him make the difference? Same thing goes for scenarios in war and Bg's in wow.

Originally posted by Greenie

Honestly, would you rather they spend all the time, money, and effort on that, or just make more actual content for players of all styles?  Before all the scoreboards you could tell by playing with or watching other players if they were good at their class or not generally. The scoreboard scenarios have skewed many people's visions on what makes a good player, stats or decision making and the unstatistical data such as capping a flag at the right time/buffs/debuffs/ rezzes, etc.

It's the same problem with statistics in sports. Take the NFL a RB has a 1000 yard season one year he's a good RB, the next year he loses most of his offensive line andhe has a 600 yard season. Is he a bad RB now or did the situation and team around him make the difference? Same thing goes for scenarios in war and Bg's in wow.

Very well said sir.

I agree, I'd rather they do what I highlighted, make more actual content for players of all styles.

But, alas, limitations of people and technology and time and money....

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Mattyb710

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Comnitus

Easy to learn, hard to master.

You're going to get arguments about how the "easy", when applied to WoW, is simply grind, and the "hard" is gear-dependant, time consuming, repetitive raiding and PvP (like Arena, which a very small percent of the WoW population actually enjoys - they just do it for the gear).

Easy to learn, hard to master is the right philosophy, though. Interesting to see how SW: TOR will pan out, then, since the devs have stated they're not going to cater to hardcores - their focus will be "fun" throughout the whole game. Does that mean there will still be hard-to-master end-game raids and PvP? I'm pretty sure, yes. But hopefully SW: TOR will not be as gear dependant as WoW, and the progression will be a little easier so as to cater to casuals who want to raid, not "hardcores".

We'll see.

 

I dunno once you hit 70+ in WoW you have to make right choices on how to spec out your character to make them effective.   It's really easy to make a bad choice in those skill trees that will gimp a character.

Google ---> How to spec my huntard? + What rotation I use for dps? -----> Mastered!

 

Lol at worst (Oh no I spec'd wrong........15gold ah fixed)

I play'd a hunter in WoW for about a year and thats what I hated about the game, they have exact specs they are supposed to have. If you didn't have the cookie cutter 51/20/0 (I think thats what it was) then you couldn't get into a raid.

As a player, I look at different specs to see if there's one that maximizes the potential of that class. That doesn't mean, however, I've "mastered" gameplay for the character. Deciding when to use what skill is more important than the spec of your character. Knowing, for a lack of better term, what buttons to spam marks a better player, and could beat a player with better gear/spec but less knowledgeable about how to play the class.

As for raiding, I played a feral druid (pre-BC). I stuck with how I wished to play my character, and I gained respect for that in my raiding guild. I was grouped with other dps classes like hunters and rogues, and acted as a dps class that was capable of being a backup healer.

One of the more memorable moments was when I played vs 1 against my paladin GM, who was well on his way to the top of the PvP ranks. It was a very interesting fight, and one that came pretty damn close. I could out damage the paladin, but paladins are designed to last.

From my personal experienes with WoW, it's a game of what people want to make of it. If you want to solo, it's doable. If you want to group, it's fairly easy and painless (aka, not time consuming like EQ). If you want to PvP, there's an avenue for that too. It's advantage is that it gives players options. Only got an hour here and there, no problem; you can still feel a sense of accomplishment at the end of that hour.

On the other hand, the game designed to be versatile and appealing to masses should not be expected to have perfected all of those aspects. Instead of players demanding the game to change to fit their style, they would be much happier playing a game that's fits their niche. The reason why there're so many games out there that seem like WoW "clones" is that WoW has the sub-base to generate profits, and so other games tried to emulate that to cash in. If the people who keep playing WoW, but wishing it to change keep playing WoW, they won't be finding a game that they will truly enjoy any time soon, because developers and gaming companies won't see a demand for anything different than WoW.

---

Originally posted by Comnitus
Easy to learn, hard to master.
You're going to get arguments about how the "easy", when applied to WoW, is simply grind, and the "hard" is gear-dependant, time consuming, repetitive raiding and PvP (like Arena, which a very small percent of the WoW population actually enjoys - they just do it for the gear).
Easy to learn, hard to master is the right philosophy, though. Interesting to see how SW: TOR will pan out, then, since the devs have stated they're not going to cater to hardcores - their focus will be "fun" throughout the whole game. Does that mean there will still be hard-to-master end-game raids and PvP? I'm pretty sure, yes. But hopefully SW: TOR will not be as gear dependant as WoW, and the progression will be a little easier so as to cater to casuals who want to raid, not "hardcores".
We'll see.

---

Did I understand you correctly?

Did you just apply "Hard to master" to the attainment of Gear in WoW?

Originally posted by djFEVA

 

As a player, I look at different specs to see if there's one that maximizes the potential of that class. That doesn't mean, however, I've "mastered" gameplay for the character. Deciding when to use what skill is more important than the spec of your character. Knowing, for a lack of better term, what buttons to spam marks a better player, and could beat a player with better gear/spec but less knowledgeable about how to play the class.

So if you put two identical feral druids with the exact same spec in a 1vs1 contest yet one is wearing green armor and one is wearing arena gear,  do you really expect me to believe that the druid in green armor is going to win because he knows his buttons/skills better?    Don't get me wrong I hate when people do not take the time to learn their class and you can generally tell the better players by the decisions they make, but in WoW : 

   GEAR >SPEC > ALL.

On the other hand, the game designed to be versatile and appealing to masses should not be expected to have perfected all of those aspects. Instead of players demanding the game to change to fit their style, they would be much happier playing a game that's fits their niche. The reason why there're so many games out there that seem like WoW "clones" is that WoW has the sub-base to generate profits, and so other games tried to emulate that to cash in. If the people who keep playing WoW, but wishing it to change keep playing WoW, they won't be finding a game that they will truly enjoy any time soon, because developers and gaming companies won't see a demand for anything different than WoW.

I do not see where wow has perfected any of those aspects. Players are calling for games to fit our niche because right now the top companies have tried to copy wow in their generic approaches to the game. Warhammer was supposed to be the niche RvR crowd where it was more casual friendly than DaoC. Mythic didn't cash in, it's been a big flop. They did however pull in over a million players to try out the game who were looking for something new. That shows there is a large demand for something different than WOW.

Even WoW continues to move away from it's core raiding philosophy by adding more and more pvp content. Wintergrasp and other new battlegrounds in development are a result of Warhammer, Aion, DaoC type playstyles. Blizzard is developing a new mmo property. I think even they understand that WoW is getting old for a lot of  its players.

With the buzz about games not yet released  like Aion, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Global Agenda and games like EvE gaining subscribers you can see that companies are finally realizing more than enough games are begging for a new type of games. 

Originally posted by logangregor

 

---

Originally posted by Comnitus
Easy to learn, hard to master.
You're going to get arguments about how the "easy", when applied to WoW, is simply grind, and the "hard" is gear-dependant, time consuming, repetitive raiding and PvP (like Arena, which a very small percent of the WoW population actually enjoys - they just do it for the gear).
Easy to learn, hard to master is the right philosophy, though. Interesting to see how SW: TOR will pan out, then, since the devs have stated they're not going to cater to hardcores - their focus will be "fun" throughout the whole game. Does that mean there will still be hard-to-master end-game raids and PvP? I'm pretty sure, yes. But hopefully SW: TOR will not be as gear dependant as WoW, and the progression will be a little easier so as to cater to casuals who want to raid, not "hardcores".
We'll see.

---

 

Did I understand you correctly?

Did you just apply "Hard to master" to the attainment of Gear in WoW?

Classes are hard to master, particularly when you take into account different specs would mean different styles of play too. The only correlation I see between "hard to master" and attainment of gear is making minimal contribution in a group/raid or in PvP to where you don't get gear for participating or if you can't survive long enough to obtain items for crafting. Other than that, you can always spend insane amounts of gold and buy your gear.

I think that an easy learning curve draws people in, particularly people who don't play games much. If the mechanics are really hard to grasp, it would deter a lot of people of keep trying. You could justify that and say it singles out those skilled players, but from a business prospective, you would be very hard pressed to find even one company willing to do it.

Originally posted by Greenie

So if you put two identical feral druids with the exact same spec in a 1vs1 contest yet one is wearing green armor and one is wearing arena gear,  do you really expect me to believe that the druid in green armor is going to win because he knows his buttons/skills better?    Don't get me wrong I hate when people do not take the time to learn their class and you can generally tell the better players by the decisions they make, but in WoW : 

   GEAR >SPEC > ALL.

I did not say that gear is completely irrelevant, and I do not think that gear is the only thing that matters. It's the way that WoW has decided to "award" the players. Although I would think that a true pro gamer would find the challenge in a gear vs. skill battle, but perhaps WoW has made that less than pleasant. And I agree with you on your sentiments towards players who do not learn their class. I also have great respect to those who do.

On the other hand, the game designed to be versatile and appealing to masses should not be expected to have perfected all of those aspects. Instead of players demanding the game to change to fit their style, they would be much happier playing a game that's fits their niche. The reason why there're so many games out there that seem like WoW "clones" is that WoW has the sub-base to generate profits, and so other games tried to emulate that to cash in. If the people who keep playing WoW, but wishing it to change keep playing WoW, they won't be finding a game that they will truly enjoy any time soon, because developers and gaming companies won't see a demand for anything different than WoW.

I do not see where wow has perfected any of those aspects. Players are calling for games to fit our niche because right now the top companies have tried to copy wow in their generic approaches to the game. Warhammer was supposed to be the niche RvR crowd where it was more casual friendly than DaoC. Mythic didn't cash in, it's been a big flop. They did however pull in over a million players to try out the game who were looking for something new. That shows there is a large demand for something different than WOW.

I did not say that WoW has or did perfect any of its versatile aspects. I was merely trying to point out that any player expecting perfection in any or all of those areas are bound to be disappointed. I just wish that people would stop comparing every game to WoW or wishing it to be this or that. If we accepted WoW for what we think it is (whether you love it, hate it, loved it or hated it), everyone would have less headaches. Also I would like to clarify by saying that the aspect I think is most "copied" from WoW is it's easy to play feature. A lot of discontent I've read about WoW is it's lack of challenge.

Even WoW continues to move away from it's core raiding philosophy by adding more and more pvp content. Wintergrasp and other new battlegrounds in development are a result of Warhammer, Aion, DaoC type playstyles. Blizzard is developing a new mmo property. I think even they understand that WoW is getting old for a lot of  its players.

I haven't played WoW since about a week after BC came out (the repetitive nature of the game got to me), so I can't speak of the many changes/additions that has been made. I would like to point out that taking into consideration how many years WoW has been out, and how we are still seeing a comparatively #1 in sub, it's pretty impressive. So obviously, somethings made it work.

With the buzz about games not yet released  like Aion, Fallen Earth, Earthrise, Global Agenda and games like EvE gaining subscribers you can see that companies are finally realizing more than enough games are begging for a new type of games. 

I do hope that people can understand that as long as there are companies out there willing/able to compete with WoW for sub-base, we players as a whole would benefit from better and a greater variety of games. It's good that these games you mentioned above are giving Blizzard a run for their WoW money.

 

Originally posted by djFEVA

Originally posted by Greenie

I did not say that WoW has or did perfect any of its versatile aspects. I was merely trying to point out that any player expecting perfection in any or all of those areas are bound to be disappointed. I just wish that people would stop comparing every game to WoW or wishing it to be this or that. If we accepted WoW for what we think it is (whether you love it, hate it, loved it or hated it), everyone would have less headaches. Also I would like to clarify by saying that the aspect I think is most "copied" from WoW is it's easy to play feature. A lot of discontent I've read about WoW is it's lack of challenge.

I haven't played WoW since about a week after BC came out (the repetitive nature of the game got to me), so I can't speak of the many changes/additions that has been made. I would like to point out that taking into consideration how many years WoW has been out, and how we are still seeing a comparatively #1 in sub, it's pretty impressive. So obviously, somethings made it work.

I do hope that people can understand that as long as there are companies out there willing/able to compete with WoW for sub-base, we players as a whole would benefit from better and a greater variety of games. It's good that these games you mentioned above are giving Blizzard a run for their WoW money.

 

 

 

I didn't mean it to sound like I was saying you think WoW perfected anything,, it was more of me making a  "letting it out comment" just because I dislike wow so much.

Although I do think Blizzard has done a remarkable job of keeping players coming back for more, I think it's due to them locking onto the nature of the gamer for one and that there isn't anything good out there at the moment as well.

Let me explain what I mean. I and many others loved DAOC, Mythic screwed the game up with the TOA xpac and lost practically half their playerbase due to it. Yet it took 6 months for many people to leave in droves, because we gamers hate to quit. Just like we hate to log out at 2 am despite having to work at 7 am.  hehe      People don't want to leave their game, they want their game to change just enough to keep them happy and playing. Blizzard has done a good job at feeding this need rather than providing a quality product.(for me)

As for me the things I hate about wow are pretty much the BOP/BOE system which I feel helps ruin community and makes gear unavailable to a large portion of the player base when it is so needed to compete,  large 40 man raids, uninspiring classes , crappy pvp, the scoreboard system for bgs and lack of any real endgame focus. I feel like I"m walking into a carnival with a bunch of crappy contests to entertain me but never really leaving with a sense of accomplishment or satisfaction.

Originally posted by arctarus

Never know they start out hardcore seeing how level 1 to 79 is done. Im surprise. Now im really looking forward to WoW next expansion...

Thanks, good read...

 

 

Forget WoW, I want to play Blizzards next MMO...

WoW=old

lol

Originally posted by Greenie

...
 

I do get your point but at the same time this line of thinking as flawed as it is and was created by Blizzard and those damage BG dps/heal charts.

Your final totals do no reflect your overall contribution. They give an aspect of it, which is completely reliant on circumstance more than anything. You fight a low level character you do more damage, fight a high one you do less. So if every character you kill in a BG is lower level your dps goes through the chart if someone else has fought higher level toons the whole bg their dps is lower.

If people aren't assisting, dps goes through the roof. Healing goes through the roof. AOE splash damage increases dps ratings.

But I do understand what you're saying that people who play the NOT OP"d Fotm class generally do try harder than people who gravitate to the OP'd class.

A good player assists well, picks targets well, kites well, uses group vs. single  mechanics well, peels well, rezzes,buffs, heals properly, I just wish people would quit using the bg charts and dps/heal numbers as a source for their arguments.

UMM but this is simply not true and pve raids point this out just fine.

Futhermore, in bgs everyone can easily spot players that are way better than others its not even hard.

Back in the day I was a big fan of Blizzard games.

While I enjoyed the article imo blizzard failed the hardcore players with Wotlk.

My brother just finished leveling a resto druid and in less than a month is full epic and in a High tier raid guild.

Back before Wotlk it took atleast a couple months to do that now raiding is simple.

Lets hope blizzard dails the difficulty up next expansion.

Originally posted by Jetrpg

Originally posted by Greenie

...
 

I do get your point but at the same time this line of thinking as flawed as it is and was created by Blizzard and those damage BG dps/heal charts.

Your final totals do no reflect your overall contribution. They give an aspect of it, which is completely reliant on circumstance more than anything. You fight a low level character you do more damage, fight a high one you do less. So if every character you kill in a BG is lower level your dps goes through the chart if someone else has fought higher level toons the whole bg their dps is lower.

If people aren't assisting, dps goes through the roof. Healing goes through the roof. AOE splash damage increases dps ratings.

But I do understand what you're saying that people who play the NOT OP"d Fotm class generally do try harder than people who gravitate to the OP'd class.

A good player assists well, picks targets well, kites well, uses group vs. single  mechanics well, peels well, rezzes,buffs, heals properly, I just wish people would quit using the bg charts and dps/heal numbers as a source for their arguments.

UMM but this is simply not true and pve raids point this out just fine.

Futhermore, in bgs everyone can easily spot players that are way better than others its not even hard.

If PVE raids have scoreboards I didn't know and I'm not referrring to PVE raids. I"m not a big pve fan or raider, I like to see a dungeon once if it's a cool lookin dungeon, but I'm all about the pvp and group vs group pvp at that.

. As it comes to pvp in the bgs it is certainly true. Scores in the bgs are very misleading as to how good or bad a player is. If you disagree with that then you've grown up on wow and war pvp which means your opinion carries very little weight with me as I feel neither game represent decent pvp. 

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by Wizardry

Does the OP believe everything he reads from a developer?? i mean what developer on this planet would tell you truth when in marketing mode?they 100% of the time ALWAYS hype up their game and tell the people what they want to hear,it is always marketing BS.

This SC2 is actually the same over the head view garbage they do with Diablo and the overall quality of the engine is horrible.They are doing there usual rehash of old ideas and old game engines and trying to convince the dummies out there,they are getting something new and unique,neither is true.

If Blizzard wa so sure of their ability and their game,they would have made SC2 years ago and not canceled it at least once,probably twice.I mean the SC:Ghost was already being made,and they purchased that company,so why did it disband?They only got brave enough,once the cash rolled in from WOW,to even consider a rehash of the older SC.If anyone of sane mind thinks WOW was HARDCORE,,rflmao,they need to give their head a shake,WOW is anything but,it was designed for the younger immature crowd.Blizzard actually designs their games for the EXACT opposite of what they are claiming,very funny how pathetic their marketing ploys are,yet even more amazing is how many buy into their BS.

There is no longer 10 million brand new clueless gamers clammouring to get into the MMO crave,Blizzard must now try their marketing BS on more intelligent gamers and have a MUCH smaller crowd to try and fool.Their cheap designs,cheap game engines ,have very little chance of fooling people ever again.Once the masses leave WOW,Blizzard will once again be a struggling entity amongst the gaming community.There is always a very young crowd looking for simplistic,cheap games like Diablo,but there is far too many choices for that age group ,to hope Blizzard can lock them all up under their wing.Besides that Diablo type games are now old school,we have moved beyond that phase.

Good thing they enticed Activision to partnership,they will need them down the road.If the rumors were correct about WOW's cost,then they must have a VERY inept loose ship for spending money,that game should have cost them VERY little to develope.They had the know how from former SOE staff,they had the template to copy[EQ],all they had to do is roll with it.

The same will happen with SC2,they already have the template or game,i am sure you will be getting the left overs already designed by the developer Blizzard bought out  the rights to SC:Ghost.Blizzard will be trying to sell the public a rehashed older game as something new..bah.

Sounds like a hate with no evidence. As for SC2 being 'rehased', why fix something that isn't broken?

Because it's boring to play the same or similar game with a different coat of graphics.  Gaming companies can't afford to sit on their laurels.  Not only do you lose money that way, but you get a bad reputation which loses even more money due to shrinking brand loyalty.

Edit:  I used to be a big Blizzard fan before the release of WoW.  After WoW, I was still a fan, but was very disappointed that a casual game had such a huge focus on hardcores getting the best rewards and exculsive content.  Now, after reading that article, I have absolutely no respect for this company anymore.  What a dispicable way to design games.

If they really did get it, they would put lan play in SC2.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I think everyone knows Blizzard is great at making games that cater to the least common denominator. They have the MMORPG with the largest paid subscription base by far. None of the others even come close.

The reason most of us post and read the forums here at MMORPG.com is because we want something else.

Otherwise, I'd just happily play WoW and not bother with the forums here.

They (Blizzard) have a horrible sense of timing in regards as to when to introduce their "learning curve" via patches (right before WOTLK was released) when in regards to changing game mechanics entirely.

Yes yes, I know the arguements, had plenty of them before I retired my 'lock (which was at 78 when I got tired of the bulkiness that was introduced with their new dot system) and although it might have changed since then.... when you spend 1 week of raiding (4 days of sunwell, 1 of black temple- 70 cap pre expansion) to clear all the good stuff to farm bosses, and then they change the hitpoint value and difficulty "for the non hardcore" so you can clear both zones IN 4 HOURS!!, they are still falling under the same problem every other developing company does.... you trivialize old content.

Hopefully they address it in further expansions (not that it matters, can't afford the time to play wow anymore). Take what the TC quoted from the Blizzard rep.. "the 1-79..." which falls under that mentality, because I still remember 60 being the cap at one time =P. Now noone wants to deal with any old world content save to just hit hotspots to grind your 20 levels, move on to BC content to hit 70, and then WOTLK to finish up your levels.

Plenty of dungeons were REALLY fun to race for server firsts, and I still fondly rememb learnign how to tank Leotheras the Blind in Serpentshrine Cavern. Let alone all the fun aoe pulls in Black Temple, or during the M'uru fight. Even learning how to control dragons for Kil'jaeden.

But who cares right? Gotta get your WOTLK content done and farm THOSE bosses...

[quote]I think everyone knows Blizzard is great at making games that cater to the least common denominator. They have the MMORPG with the largest paid subscription base by far. None of the others even come close.[/quote]

That also contradicts the original post (but I agree) but it's also because they are now the largest surviving game developer and have the largest coffer in which to draw from (which isn't a bad thing).

Before WoW, Everquest was by far a superior mmorpg (using the world system and timers made weekly boss farming WAY more fun IMO) but unfortunately, EQ was almost another generation ago.

Originally posted by Mattyb710

Google ---> How to spec my huntard? + What rotation I use for dps? -----> Mastered!

And that's how you think you get good at PvP?

Neverwinter Nights is a great MMORPG. Blizzard droped the Ball when they let somone else make NWN2.

As far as I'm concerned, Blizzard can have "it". The game is fun in some aspects but it is by no means perfect or close to it. I think they only have so many subscriptions with WoW is because of their previous games, and more advertising than any MMO ever.