*note* This not about types of PvP like FFA or loot or anything else, just simply do you like your PvP in MMOs to be dependant on gear/level or with an even playing field so that only class/skill/spec/compostion matter?

Level the playing field completely so gear and level don't matter in PvP, or do you like that you can get better gear and higher levels then other people and thusly dominate them or conversely get dominated by other people who have better gear then you and are higher level then you?

What do you prefer?

Simple question, thanks.

 I dont see why one couldnt choose a little of both instead of saying it must be completely one way or the other...

The question is akin to asking how do you like your pet, friendly or cat.

It's actually fairly simple.

Do you like gear/level to matter i.e. most MMOs or do you like things to be even no matter what i.e. FPS games?

How is this complicated?

I'll add an options for "a little of both" I just wanted more polarized responses, and adding a "both a and b" is almost always garaunteed to be the top pick in a poll.

 *edit* hmm maybe I can't edit the poll... black and white answers only it seems!

 I like both. I do not however, like skill based combat in my MMORPGs, though for an FPS it's fine. Mixing the two would feel like mxing milk with orange juice, it just wouldnt be that great.

I agree sanders01.

I like my MMO PvP to be about dice rolls and a bit of random chance involved in that and thus I like gear and numerical progression systems...

But I also like my skill to matter so as long as the differences in gear/level aren't too great I still have a good chance to win if I am better then the other player.

Still though, this poll is for a "purist" perspective.

i.e. if you think gear should matter at all, even just a little, choose the gear/level option. If you hate dependancy on gear and think it should be TOTALLY 100% about skill/tactics then choose that option.

Originally posted by heerobya

I agree sanders01.

I like my MMO PvP to be about dice rolls and a bit of random chance involved in that and thus I like gear and numerical progression systems...

But I also like my skill to matter so as long as the differences in gear/level aren't too great I still have a good chance to win if I am better then the other player.

Still though, this poll is for a "purist" perspective.

i.e. if you think gear should matter at all, even just a little, choose the gear/level option. If you hate dependancy on gear and think it should be TOTALLY 100% about skill/tactics then choose that option.

Yea, I ended up choosing the gear option, since I do prefer it, but in the end it doesn't make or break a game for me.

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Originally posted by sanders01
 I like both. I do not however, like skill based combat in my MMORPGs, though for an FPS it's fine. Mixing the two would feel like mxing milk with orange juice, it just wouldnt be that great.

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All MMORPGs involve at least a little skill, so this statement is a little odd. The skill depth of the average MMORPG might not be incredibly deep, but it's not like you're watching combat unfold - you're interacting with the game and participating, and failure to hit the right button at the right time will result in failure.

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

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Originally posted by sanders01
 I like both. I do not however, like skill based combat in my MMORPGs, though for an FPS it's fine. Mixing the two would feel like mxing milk with orange juice, it just wouldnt be that great.

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All MMORPGs involve at least a little skill, so this statement is a little odd. The skill depth of the average MMORPG might not be incredibly deep, but it's not like you're watching combat unfold - you're interacting with the game and participating, and failure to hit the right button at the right time will result in failure.

Pressing tab, and memerising a set of button presses doesn't take 'skill' imo, but that's just my own definintion of skill.

DAoC RvR. I like it like that.

Originally posted by heerobya

I agree sanders01.

I like my MMO PvP to be about dice rolls and a bit of random chance involved in that and thus I like gear and numerical progression systems...

But I also like my skill to matter so as long as the differences in gear/level aren't too great I still have a good chance to win if I am better then the other player.

Still though, this poll is for a "purist" perspective.

i.e. if you think gear should matter at all, even just a little, choose the gear/level option. If you hate dependancy on gear and think it should be TOTALLY 100% about skill/tactics then choose that option.

 The problem is that with most gear and numerical progression system, they set them up so you can lessen that random chance to equal a high success rate due to have a better set of gear.

 I prefer 50% intelligent play, 40% skill, 10% gear/level. I believe that most people forget about intelligent play as a factor. Most people assume that in a skill based game its all about the twitch factor and hand eye coordination. People seem to forget that its possible to slow an mmo down enough so that intelligent play can be the biggest factor, which seems to be missing from pretty much all mmo's. My opinions on building a pvp mmo...

 1. Intelligently designing your character should be a factor.

With most mmorpgs, you get very little hands on tweaking when designing your character. Usually the method is, pick class, pick talents, done. Games such as guild wars take gear out of the equation and allow you to pick which skills your good at and what skills to equip on a limited numbered action bar. So much more thought must go into character creation when you are limited to say 10 skills.

2. Intelligent play...

 Using the correct ability at the correct time should be important, but not a game breaker. With a lot of pvp mmorpgs, it all comes down to a single mistake. This is due to the current genre being twitch based, with fast deaths imminent. Dieing in under 5 seconds pretty much takes intelligent play out of the game. You can be the most intelligent person playing, but since you lack the speed and hand eye coordination OR nifty macros and presets, you can not compete. If deaths were more around the 15-20 second mark, players would have more time to participate in the fight, thus equaling more options for dynamic combat.

I voted Balanced.

I enjoy stat-based to a degree, but when I want PVP I want it to be more about Player Skill than Time Spent Playing. It doesn't matter to me what specific type of Player Skill is rewarded (Twitch skill, Strategy skill, or otherwise) as long as I can look at any given combat situation and realize why I won/lost. That way I can correct the mistake and do better next time.

In a stats-centric (gear/level) game, correcting the mistake is usually something like "invest 30 more hours to get the next better piece of gear". That's not a particularly satisfying PVP system for me.

Mostly it's that there's a stark difference between PVE (where mobs are created to die) and PVP (where death is much more frequent). In both I want a system where player skill matters (otherwise why not play Progress Quest instead?) but in PVP specifically it's particularly frustrating to lose purely due to inferior stats, because there's typically nothing you can do to overcome that disadvantage (so why not play Progress Quest instead if your decisions don't matter?)

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Originally posted by sanders01

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Originally posted by Axehilt

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Originally posted by sanders01
 I like both. I do not however, like skill based combat in my MMORPGs, though for an FPS it's fine. Mixing the two would feel like mxing milk with orange juice, it just wouldnt be that great.

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All MMORPGs involve at least a little skill, so this statement is a little odd. The skill depth of the average MMORPG might not be incredibly deep, but it's not like you're watching combat unfold - you're interacting with the game and participating, and failure to hit the right button at the right time will result in failure.

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Pressing tab, and memerising a set of button presses doesn't take 'skill' imo, but that's just my own definintion of skill.

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It doesn't take much skill, and the example you've given is a game with particularly shallow combat, but it does take skill.

t0nyd, what you call "intelligent play" is skill.

There are different forms of skill in games. "Twitch" is simply one type of skill.

My usual way of breaking down the types of skill goes something like:
A. Twitch
B. Strategy
C. Tactics

B and C being long- and short-term planning skill (or as you put it: intelligent planning and intelligent play.)

I prefer breaking skill down this way since it applies to every game genre (originally I applied the model to RTS games, but gradually realized it applied to FPS and other genres as well.)

The skill in RPG combat games, or numerical gear/level based comes down to a few things IMO-

1. Min/maxing your character. This includes gear selection, stats, talent/skill builds, even optimal rotations and macros and mods. Most of this you CAN look up and have someone else tell you, but you won't really be the best unless you understand the "why" not just the "what."

2. Knowledge of game/character mechanics. This includes knowing the terrain or map, knowing your abilities and what they do and also knowing your enemy and what they are capable of and what they can do and how you can counter it. Also this is knowing how to "read" your enemy based off of factors like the gear they are wearing or Titles they have etc.

3. Playing you character. You have to know when to use your abilities and when to save them and knowing the best strategies does not = being able to execute the best strategies. There is a bit of finesse and style associated with it and really this point is one of the most important little nuances that really make a player "good" or not. There is a degree of "twitch" in this as you have to be able to react quickly and be faster "on the draw" in a lot of cases.

I guess in the end I like when gear matters because it makes you feel good once you put in the work and win enough to start getting the good gear, yeah most of the time it's just a grind through a gear treadmill but I like stomping people once I have the good gear.

Yeah it sucks to get stomped when I'm still working on getting the gear, it's true, but I guess I view it as motivation to be better and invest my time and energy into getting the good stuff.

Originally posted by heerobya

The skill in RPG combat games, or numerical gear/level based comes down to a few things IMO-

1. Min/maxing your character. This includes gear selection, stats, talent/skill builds, even optimal rotations and macros and mods. Most of this you CAN look up and have someone else tell you, but you won't really be the best unless you understand the "why" not just the "what."

2. Knowledge of game/character mechanics. This includes knowing the terrain or map, knowing your abilities and what they do and also knowing your enemy and what they are capable of and what they can do and how you can counter it. Also this is knowing how to "read" your enemy based off of factors like the gear they are wearing or Titles they have etc.

3. Playing you character. You have to know when to use your abilities and when to save them and knowing the best strategies does not = being able to execute the best strategies. There is a bit of finesse and style associated with it and really this point is one of the most important little nuances that really make a player "good" or not. There is a degree of "twitch" in this as you have to be able to react quickly and be faster "on the draw" in a lot of cases.

Could have quoted all of your posts in this thread, I agree with all of them.

If I wanted to play balanced PVP games I'd stick to FPShooters, my MMO's should have the depth to make all of the factors you mention here as variables to make for interesting combat.

DAOC was one such game.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by heerobya

The skill in RPG combat games, or numerical gear/level based comes down to a few things IMO-

1. Min/maxing your character. This includes gear selection, stats, talent/skill builds, even optimal rotations and macros and mods. Most of this you CAN look up and have someone else tell you, but you won't really be the best unless you understand the "why" not just the "what."

2. Knowledge of game/character mechanics. This includes knowing the terrain or map, knowing your abilities and what they do and also knowing your enemy and what they are capable of and what they can do and how you can counter it. Also this is knowing how to "read" your enemy based off of factors like the gear they are wearing or Titles they have etc.

3. Playing you character. You have to know when to use your abilities and when to save them and knowing the best strategies does not = being able to execute the best strategies. There is a bit of finesse and style associated with it and really this point is one of the most important little nuances that really make a player "good" or not. There is a degree of "twitch" in this as you have to be able to react quickly and be faster "on the draw" in a lot of cases.

Could have quoted all of your posts in this thread, I agree with all of them.

If I wanted to play balanced PVP games I'd stick to FPShooters, my MMO's should have the depth to make all of the factors you mention here as variables to make for interesting combat.

DAOC was one such game.

 

Yeah, I agree as well. My first thought when seeing this thread was "if one doesn't want gear and only wants skill, just play a fps game, problem solved".

Role playing games are about acquiring abilities, gear, spells, etc.

I'm old fashioned and like my gear and my levels.

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Originally posted by Sovrath

 
Yeah, I agree as well. My first thought when seeing this thread was "if one doesn't want gear and only wants skill, just play a fps game, problem solved".
Role playing games are about acquiring abilities, gear, spells, etc.
I'm old fashioned and like my gear and my levels.

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No wonder you are so old, you like to gain years like you like to gain levels. Haven't seen you in awhile buddy. I moved out of Cambridge last year and into Boston.

I like it where skills/tactics/gear matter . . . in diablo 2 i used to make new dueilng builds and they were rather successful, but the problem is, with the MMO's now, it's tough to really use a different skill tree other than the optimized ones that everyone has already found out.

I think you need a game where everything matters and nothing is so overpowered. If there is a big level mismatch that shouldn't be the end all and be all. I remember in WoW i lost as a 60 hunter to a 53 warrior tank whatever its called and i've killed level 60's in my low 50's (i came oh so close though). But then again. i met a naked hunter and dueled her, then she put on her epic gear when her life was half and wasted me like there was no tomorrow (i had blue/green gear).

I don't mind either way.  If I had a choice, gear shouldn't be a huge factor in PvP imo.  Unless gear is purely cosmetic, upgrades should be minuscule. 

I have never seen a MMO where everbody is on an equal playing field. Which ones are those?

Originally posted by heerobya

I guess in the end I like when gear matters because it makes you feel good once you put in the work and win enough to start getting the good gear, yeah most of the time it's just a grind through a gear treadmill but I like stomping people once I have the good gear.

Yeah it sucks to get stomped when I'm still working on getting the gear, it's true, but I guess I view it as motivation to be better and invest my time and energy into getting the good stuff.

But being 'better' as you describe it is really just an illusion. You are no better than you were before. The game has adjusted your character's powers because your gear is better. You are only defeating opponents because they are at a big disadvantage when facing you...

Personally, I find it much more enjoyable when I truly AM better than an opponent through superior knowledge of my character and the game. All of the most satisfying PvP experiences of my gaming career were in games where PvP was more about skill. 

I can remember some very epic battles in UO where nearly everyone was using similar skill builds and had almost identical stats. It came down to who understood the combat better and who could use their environment to their advantage. Victory under those circumstances is MUCH more satisfying than winning because of a handicap.

Originally posted by Anubisan

But being 'better' as you describe it is really just an illusion. You are no better than you were before. The game has adjusted your character's powers because your gear is better. You are only defeating opponents because they are at a big disadvantage when facing you...

Personally, I find it much more enjoyable when I truly AM better than an opponent through superior knowledge of my character and the game. All of the most satisfying PvP experiences of my gaming career were in games where PvP was more about skill. 

I can remember some very epic battles in UO where nearly everyone was using similar skill builds and had almost identical stats. It came down to who understood the combat better and who could use their environment to their advantage. Victory under those circumstances is MUCH more satisfying than winning because of a handicap.

I can definitely partially agree with you as I have very fond memories of UO PvP too.

But understand that there is never only one person at the top with the best gear in a modern MMO, usually I'm playing catch up so there is still LOTS of opportunity for such epic fights.

Like last night I did Strand of the Ancients in WoW for the very first time. Had a two minute or so battle with a Ret Paladin, just one on one with everything else that was going on. He beat me, just barely, so the rest of the match I'd hunt him down when I saw him. I have no idea if I ever will see that Paladin again, but for those 10-15 minutes I had a true nemesis and it brought so much joy and satisfaction to beat him after he had bested me.

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Originally posted by Korvenus
I have never seen a MMO where everbody is on an equal playing field. Which ones are those?

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The ones with lateral progression mostly (Guild Wars, Planetside as examples.) MMOs built for competitive PVP, basically.

The playing field isn't 100% "equal" in these games, but the benefits gained from advancing your character are small enough that player skill determines 90% or more of who wins a fight.

Only 50 something votes but so far almost 50/50.

I'm actually suprised.

I thought with the general attitude of most on these boards the overwhelming response would be gear/level based PvP because people love pwning noobs... griefing/ganking PK types which you can't really do as much/so well in a more "even" player skill based PvP system.