I hear alot of people saying they are tired with the old set up of "tank dps heal" that whole situation. Well i've been thinkin about it for a while. and honestly I can't think of any other way to do it. So would some of you like to tell me what you had in mind?

(Keeping in mind it has to work in a grouping enviroment)

Saying you're tired of these concepts pretty much also mean you are tired of group cooperative play MMORPG environments.

I also have no idea how to "reinvent" the thing there besides changing a few things here and there but in the end sticking with "tank", "heal" and "dps".

It might just be my ignorance that associates these terms with MMORPG group play.

Anyone saying they're tired of this needs to take a break..... it's almost like, "I gotta quit smoking".. :)

How about nothing but DPS.  That is how real soldiers fight a battle that lasts for just a few minutes.  I've always thought tanking was lame.  In-combat healing is even worse unless you are in a very high fantasy setting.

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

 I hear alot of people saying they are tired with the old set up of "tank dps heal" that whole situation. Well i've been thinkin about it for a while. and honestly I can't think of any other way to do it. So would some of you like to tell me what you had in mind?

(Keeping in mind it has to work in a grouping enviroment)

I have a feeling SW: TOR will answer your question.

Here is what I propose though:

- Do away with battling 1 large uber health pointed mob. Instead all "raids" should consist of waves of normal level mobs that far outnumber the player characters. Healers would still be used but a low dps aggro tank would be all but useless in this scenario. You would want as many middle of the road or hight dps characters as possible. In this situation everyone is a tank.

- Who needs healers when you have adequate pots or unversal healing skills.

- Another way is to do away with fantasy MMOs. No need for "tanks" if everyone has a gun.

- Also instances and raids could revolve around stealth or infiltration (think MGS coop or Call of Duty).

It actually isnt that hard. MMO developers just have to get out of this model

Create Generic Fantasy World

Populate with high health point raid bosses for difficulty (cheaper than multiple enemy attacks)

Add tank, dps and healing classes to deal with bosses.

The whole mechanic is stale.

you can't think of anything because you are not that rare person in this world with that rare brilliant mind... lets face it... 90% of the people around the world are simple common folks... where all we can do is copy copy and copy... it is only when those rare indvisuals with gifted creative minds decides that they want to create a new game for the world... then you will truely see something new... and after you see it you will go "oh yea that makes sense what a great idea now why didn't i think of that"...

Originally posted by Fr0z1nDuDe

you can't think of anything because you are not that rare person in this world with that rare brilliant mind... lets face it... 90% of the people around the world are simple common folks... where all we can do is copy copy and copy... it is only when those rare indvisuals with gifted creative minds decides that they want to create a new game for the world... then you will truely see something new... and after you see it you will go "oh yea that makes sense what a great idea now why didn't i think of that"...

Yeah just wait till one of my ideas makes it into a game (not the ones I posted above). :D

The Chronicles of spellborn tried and kind of did eliminate the cookie cutter classes in an mmo. Their was no definite "tank" or "healer"

And that game trainwrecked.

How to make a game that doesn't rely on the holy trinity of tank/dps/healing:

1. Concentrate on many-vs-many fights rather than many-vs-boss.
2. Give every class balanced survivability, damage and healing abilities.

As someone mentioned, TOR is (currently) approaching things from this perspective and I personally think it's a very viable alternative to the trinity. It may also lead to a game that has better balance in terms of PvP, more accessible group mechanics and a much, much overdue removal of the "LFG: Need Tank!" spam that we all are so very fond of.

If I can also play a wookiee I might never buy another game ever.

Bionut,

You read my mind exactly. More and more waves of smaller creatures with low hp's would create a frantic pace instead of sitting there pumping 4040304034 arrows into one guy hitting a tank. I mean seriously, i can't believe no one has done this. I'd love going through and just tearing apart mobs when i'm at a high level. It would be like grouping in diablo 2 with a necro lowering resists and a sorc and you just plow through the enemies like there's no tomorrow. Now that is fun. Then again there could be a lag issue.

Cryomatrix

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

The Chronicles of spellborn tried and kind of did eliminate the cookie cutter classes in an mmo. Their was no definite "tank" or "healer"

And that game trainwrecked.

I've heard lots of explanations of why people quit that game but I have never heard anyone say it was because they did not have enough restrictions on the skills they could select.

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Originally posted by Wolfenpride
The Chronicles of spellborn tried and kind of did eliminate the cookie cutter classes in an mmo. Their was no definite "tank" or "healer"
And that game trainwrecked.

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TCoS "trainwrecked" because the game content itself was/is boring, repetitive and unimaginative. Also the developers and distributors of TCoS had virtually no advertising go on for the game at all. They also had a piece meal style launch where the game release only in certain limited areas in Europe this made the servers feel empty and dead.

I like the Tank, Healer and DD concept. I like being in a party were people have roles and have to play there role for the party to be successful.

I believe that there is actually a compromise to develop an encounter where you could have a group or raid group against a boss without a tank or healer.  Much like games we've all played in the past, I mean everything from mario bros to tomb raider, god of war, and other action adventure type games.

Think of the dynamic, the object is to not get hit at all, and you were limited on the items you could use to bring your health back up.  All good games at one point or another have you fight an all powerful boss where you have to dodge attacks and find special ways of dealing damage to a boss.  So stick this into a group environment where coordinated actions are necessary and healing was something only the individual was in control of.

What if the boss was a large demon where only his arms and head rose above the surface and didn't move or chase any particular tank.  Instead the object was to have the players move and jump around to avoid his swings while also having to work in damaging attacks in the limited time to kill the boss.

I think it could work outside the formula of tank/heal/dps without just being a game that sent repetetive waves of mobs at a group of players hiding behind the barricades (although that is always a great in between for boss fights).

TOR, as mentioned, looks like it aims to adress this, I read a description of one of their "instances" where you are in a star destroyer that is assaulted by rebel forces who break in and you have to fight off waves of enemies as they storm the control room and at the end you have to fight a jedi.

Action/adventure elements need to be brought into MMO space for the genre to really move forward imo.

Originally posted by Cryomatrix

Bionut,

You read my mind exactly. More and more waves of smaller creatures with low hp's would create a frantic pace instead of sitting there pumping 4040304034 arrows into one guy hitting a tank. I mean seriously, i can't believe no one has done this. I'd love going through and just tearing apart mobs when i'm at a high level. It would be like grouping in diablo 2 with a necro lowering resists and a sorc and you just plow through the enemies like there's no tomorrow. Now that is fun. Then again there could be a lag issue.

Cryomatrix

Hey I am right there with you man. Like I said above, the TOR devs have stated multiple times that their game will not involve the hit 1 huge uber boss over and over mechanic. They want you to feel heroic so they are going to put you up against multiple enemies. They want to recreate the hectic nature of mass battles in action, sci-fi and fantasy movies. This is there combat and raiding philosophy.

Will it work? Guess we will find out when TOR launches.

Maybe the better question is, "How do you break the current mold and still make the game fun to your target audience?"  Changing the current character archetypes of tank, healer, dps and crowd control means utilizing some form of hybrid character types and that means you remove the distinctiveness of roles in the game.  Making everyone dps or some hybrid of the traditional roles in the game, reduces the amount of character variability.  Everyone is like everyone else.  That's not going to appeal to most people, I think.

I like the traditiona character archetypes.  A lot of games now have character types that can fill multiple roles in a group.  For example, in WoW, Druids can tank, heal or dps, depending on how the characters skill/traits are set up and the gear they are wearing.  EQ2 has quite a few character types that fill the same role but do it in different ways, allowing greater variety within the traditional archetypes. 

I just don't see how you eliminate the need for the different archetypes without limiting the variety of the gameplay.

Originally posted by angus858

How about nothing but DPS.  That is how real soldiers fight a battle that lasts for just a few minutes.  I've always thought tanking was lame.  In-combat healing is even worse unless you are in a very high fantasy setting.

Tanking comes from, uh, tanks.

Originally posted by Korvenus

I like the Tank, Healer and DD concept. I like being in a party were people have roles and have to play there role for the party to be successful.

Believe it or not, you can have "roles" outside of tank,dps, heal.

The US military has plenty of them and does many raids. In fact their roles are support, dps and more dps. 

(While there are healers they usually don't go on the raids)

I agree, MMOs could use new roles. Maybe something along the lines of

"mooch" - robs bosses of all their loot sending them stomping off in a fit of rage
"e-peen" - spouts off mouth vomit at mobs who cower in fear at their awesome stats
"loner" - hits mobs with waves of depression causing loss of stamina and motivation
"rage leader" - causes general confusion and even attrition in groups of mobs through his yelling and screaming

Originally posted by Pale_Fire

Maybe the better question is, "How do you break the current mold and still make the game fun to your target audience?"  Changing the current character archetypes of tank, healer, dps and crowd control means utilizing some form of hybrid character types and that means you remove the distinctiveness of roles in the game.  Making everyone dps or some hybrid of the traditional roles in the game, reduces the amount of character variability.  Everyone is like everyone else.  That's not going to appeal to most people, I think.

I like the traditiona character archetypes.  A lot of games now have character types that can fill multiple roles in a group.  For example, in WoW, Druids can tank, heal or dps, depending on how the characters skill/traits are set up and the gear they are wearing.  EQ2 has quite a few character types that fill the same role but do it in different ways, allowing greater variety within the traditional archetypes. 

I just don't see how you eliminate the need for the different archetypes without limiting the variety of the gameplay.

Variety does not have to be the class you play.

What if variety was the way you played your class.

In all honesty there only needs to be one class in any MMO. Call it base class or starting class. This base class should then gain xp and spend it on the skills he/she would like to use in their play style. Give the player multiple options that branch off into others that do not enclose someone in a specific "class" and we will see a truly unique MMO. This is next gen folks.

Want to throw fireballs and drain health? You got it.

Want to run very fast and be super strong? You got it.

Want to do everything? You got it but it will take you years to get the experience necissary.

The problem is that the AI is todays mmos is so bad. The monsters behaviour is so predictable that one can hardly call that an AI.
Just consider if the tank-dps-healer tactic would work in any way in a pvp situation. No, it wouldn’t because players just refuse to attack the character you want them to attack. Of cause they would go for the guys in the cloth-armour first.

It all started with exploiting the simplicity of the AI that turned into some kind of mmo-tradition, and the developers stuck to it, because they thought that’s the way people want to play, bedsides they didn’t need to invest into a better AI.

Just imagine a medieval battle where on guy, all dressed in armour so that he barley can walk, would step to the front calling out to the enemy: “C’mon shoot all your arrows at me and forget about all my friends.” …

So if the AI would be better, the whole tank-dps-healer tactic would become obsolete and one would have to figure out different and more alterable tactics.
 

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

How to make a game that doesn't rely on the holy trinity of tank/dps/healing:

1. Concentrate on many-vs-many fights rather than many-vs-boss.
2. Give every class balanced survivability, damage and healing abilities.

I'd change number two to:

2) Give every character access to skills, items and resources that allow them to define and manage the way they choose to engage in battle.

In most MMOs, there are two aspects that create the need for the trinity

• - class restrictions
• - the engagement or war does not start until someone draws aggro.

Changing those two aspects expands the roles and options in combat by introducing the need for good leadership and strategic gameplay. Now, before anyone craps on me for daring to downplay the importance of a raid leader... I agree it is a role that takes genuine personal skill to pull off effectively, however it is nothing compared to the on-the-fly decision making necessary for a leader in an arena where hostiles can come from anywhere and can be using any number of tactics in their defense, ambush, espionage attempts, etc.

Imagine a level-based system with highly specialized classes. There's got to be one or two out there, although I am not familiar with them. It would allow for some amazing intel, support, and stealth classes. However, it's extremely difficult to do solely because if a player has zero option to level by himself or in unoptimized groups, the players are going to demand that the class gets 'fixed'.

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Originally posted by BioNut

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Originally posted by Korvenus

I like the Tank, Healer and DD concept. I like being in a party were people have roles and have to play there role for the party to be successful.

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Believe it or not, you can have "roles" outside of tank,dps, heal.
 
The US military has plenty of them and does many raids. In fact their roles are support, dps and more dps. 
 
(While there are healers they usually don't go on the raids)
 

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The US military will need a "tank" once it faces off against the decepticons. That will be in 2085.

Cryomatrix
I'll be 104 years old and still no viagra needed

Mass Effect does it right.

Although it's a single player game you do have a group of 3. And I think what they do could work for a MMO.

There's more hit and run, using cover and movement, not just sitting in one place.  Also helps that everyone is range.

Keep talking, I'm seeing so many fun concepts in here, although they've all been seen in single-player or non-MMO multi-player games the idea of seeing some of these in MMOs is great =)

I remember some good old times when I'd call a few friends over once a weekend to have fun in one of the 900 star wars games out there, the game mode in question was about incoming enemy waves after waves progression.

The wonders of good forum discussions.