Originally posted by Euphoryk

Beating a dead horse, you are.

 

lmao 1st thing I thought..

Originally posted by yigael

Originally posted by Omrie

Originally posted by Ethian

Ahhh come on, their games bud....What does it matter to you what people have and what they dont? Its a virtual world..its not real...LOL. Try having some fun ingame rather then worrying about other peoples loot. Theres an idea...

 

Hey, another adult. Hi!

 

The problem is, that in order to have some fun, you have to be decently geared, otherwise there wont be any fun at all in getting 1 shotted by X or Y mob, either solo or grouped.

Im basicly a soloer, but it reaches a point when you DO need to group in order to get better stuff in order to keep going solo, otherwise, the 1shotted mob will appear over and over again.

Thats IMHO.

Well, I suppose a very solo oriented, challenging and highly involved quest chain can be done so that special solo gear can be obtained.

However, I'm in agreement that if there MUST be raid gear then people who do not raid do not need it. However, they still need gear that has similar if not equal stats in the important areas so that if someone who is primarily a raider and someone who does primarily small group or soloing, wanted to group, they can.

So an example would be the LOTRO raid gear. It does have an issue but essentially it adds radiance that allows one to enter the radiance raids.

Now, in many cases, though not all, its stats are better than crafted gear or some of the stuff one would get in the small group instances. what should have been done is that it should only add radiance and the rest of the stats are comparable to everything else. This way someone who doesn't raid really doesn't need it and those people who do raid need to compete to get it.

RPG's have traditionally involved gear and levels and dice rolls.

Online RPG's, and those on a massively multiplayer scale i.e. MMORPG's have generally speaking been no different.

Only recently, in the past few years have people tried to go beyond the bounds of these traditions, and nearly every single one of them has NOT been a raging success or even financial success, most all of them have failed.

Many that have tried to be traditional have also failed because they didn't understand what motivated differnent types of players.

I like traditional MMORPGs. I think all these fpsMMO and twitch and rtsMMO hybrid crap is ruining the MMORPG genre.

Because they are not MMO-RPGs they are something different.

This website is suppose to be about MMORPG's and talking about MMORPG's and that implies that these games are Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games, and by being such I'd expect them to follow certain conventions.

If you want something outside of this box, then perhaps a traditional MMORPG is not for you, because levels and gear and desparity in PvP because of level and gear is part of the MMORPG formula, just like the solo-raid-group divide, it's an expected part and those of us who like traditional MMORPGs expect them.

We understand why they are the way they are and understand if we want to do things in these games there are certain rules and standards and expectations.
 

I understand that if I want to get the best rewards in the game, I have to participate in the group and raid level content, because that is how traditional MMORPGs are designed and I like that kind of system.

So I go back to the original topic, solo players do not "deserve" the same gear as small group players, and small group players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders because they are not participating in the content that requires this gear and as such rewards it.

Originally posted by heerobya

I understand that if I want to get the best rewards in the game, I have to participate in the group and raid level content, because that is how traditional MMORPGs are designed and I like that kind of system.

So I go back to the original topic, solo players do not "deserve" the same gear as small group players, and small group players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders because they are not participating in the content that requires this gear and as such rewards it.

Now this brings to my mind something interesting. Hope that we are on the same page about gear, the game, etc.

what about those games that do not have things like raid gear? if the same gear you use for soloing is the same that you would use when grouping with high lvl chars to do tough bosses/dungeons?

Originally posted by yigael

Now this brings to my mind something interesting. Hope that we are on the same page about gear, the game, etc.

what about those games that do not have things like raid gear? if the same gear you use for soloing is the same that you would use when grouping with high lvl chars to do tough bosses/dungeons?

I'd love it.

See, my favorite MMO of all time was Ultima Online because there was no gear really. None of it matters. You'd use the same stuff all day every day and lose it every day too and make more and it wasn't about the gear, it was about the game and it was about playing with friends.

To me, EQ changed all of that.

And since no new AAA title will ever follow the Ultima Online model ever again due to the success of the EQ model, I'm sad.. but I've adapted.

You can say "oh my Darkfall" but I refuse to play any game that isn't AAA and polished because I don't like wasting money. And I hate twitch/FPS combat in MMOs, they are mmoRPGs to me, the RPG part implies non-twitch and dice roles/numbers to me.

I wrote some posts recently saying that if all the gear was the same people would still raid and form big guilds to do the big bosses (even if the gear was exactly the same) because many people actually LIKE doing it. You create a boss that takes 40 people to kill, you'll find 40 people to kill it. Even if it doesn't have any better gear.

It's all the people that ONLY do it because the best gear is there that have contributed to ruining the genre. i.e. the EQ generation and EQ model mentality.

But I've adapted... I can still find my fun in a good AAA EQ based game like WoW, but only because I find the PvE to be challenging and extremely polished and so finely tuned, I appreciate the challenge.

Originally posted by heerobya

RPG's have traditionally involved gear and levels and dice rolls.

Online RPG's, and those on a massively multiplayer scale i.e. MMORPG's have generally speaking been no different.

Only recently, in the past few years have people tried to go beyond the bounds of these traditions, and nearly every single one of them has NOT been a raging success or even financial success, most all of them have failed.

Many that have tried to be traditional have also failed because they didn't understand what motivated differnent types of players.

I like traditional MMORPGs. I think all these fpsMMO and twitch and rtsMMO hybrid crap is ruining the MMORPG genre.

Because they are not MMO-RPGs they are something different.

This website is suppose to be about MMORPG's and talking about MMORPG's and that implies that these games are Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games, and by being such I'd expect them to follow certain conventions.

If you want something outside of this box, then perhaps a traditional MMORPG is not for you, because levels and gear and desparity in PvP because of level and gear is part of the MMORPG formula, just like the solo-raid-group divide, it's an expected part and those of us who like traditional MMORPGs expect them.

We understand why they are the way they are and understand if we want to do things in these games there are certain rules and standards and expectations.
 

I understand that if I want to get the best rewards in the game, I have to participate in the group and raid level content, because that is how traditional MMORPGs are designed and I like that kind of system.

So I go back to the original topic, solo players do not "deserve" the same gear as small group players, and small group players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders because they are not participating in the content that requires this gear and as such rewards it.

This argument is completely  moot. You and the rest of us can sit here and argue what a MMORPG should and should not be and what type of player deserves what reward. At that end of the day the whole discussion is worthless. The reason? Cold hard cash. Wow's success has shown companies that old school "hardcore" game mechanics doom the game to at best lukewarm success. For a game company to ignore or alienate the casual or solo player is cutting their own throat. Sadly the future of "hardcore" mmorpgs isn't looking that hardcore. Effort, risk vs reward, and frankly, skill mean nothing in the MMORPG world anymore. Only two things make a player deserving to game makers that want to shoot for the same success as Wow these days. Time and money invested.

Originally posted by MisterZebub

This argument is completely  moot. You and the rest of us can sit here and argue what a MMORPG should and should not be and what type of player deserves what reward. At that end of the day the whole discussion is worthless. The reason? Cold hard cash. Wow's success has shown companies that old school "hardcore" game mechanics doom the game to at best lukewarm success. For a game company to ignore or alienate the casual or solo player is cutting their own throat. Sadly the future of "hardcore" mmorpgs isn't looking that hardcore. Effort, risk vs reward, and frankly, skill mean nothing in the MMORPG world anymore. Only two things make a player deserving to game makers that want to shoot for the same success as Wow these days. Time and money invested.

You should read my other thread on why Blizzard "get's it" and understand how wrong you are.

It's just no one else has done it since Blizzard. They make hardcore games that are accessable to casuals. If you can't see that, you have been blinded by the propoganda on this site.

Read the article, it's a good one and it's about StarCraft II which is awesome just because it's StarCraft II.

Originally posted by heerobya

RPG's have traditionally involved gear and levels and dice rolls.

Online RPG's, and those on a massively multiplayer scale i.e. MMORPG's have generally speaking been no different.

Only recently, in the past few years have people tried to go beyond the bounds of these traditions, and nearly every single one of them has NOT been a raging success or even financial success, most all of them have failed.

Many that have tried to be traditional have also failed because they didn't understand what motivated differnent types of players.

I like traditional MMORPGs. I think all these fpsMMO and twitch and rtsMMO hybrid crap is ruining the MMORPG genre.

Because they are not MMO-RPGs they are something different.

This website is suppose to be about MMORPG's and talking about MMORPG's and that implies that these games are Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games, and by being such I'd expect them to follow certain conventions.

If you want something outside of this box, then perhaps a traditional MMORPG is not for you, because levels and gear and desparity in PvP because of level and gear is part of the MMORPG formula, just like the solo-raid-group divide, it's an expected part and those of us who like traditional MMORPGs expect them.

We understand why they are the way they are and understand if we want to do things in these games there are certain rules and standards and expectations.
 

I understand that if I want to get the best rewards in the game, I have to participate in the group and raid level content, because that is how traditional MMORPGs are designed and I like that kind of system.

So I go back to the original topic, solo players do not "deserve" the same gear as small group players, and small group players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders because they are not participating in the content that requires this gear and as such rewards it.

Well you use the word traditional a lot. You are aware (and no reason that you wouldn't be) that most of the content you experience has evolved over time and in some instances has incorporated other types of ideas in order to evolve?

I mean, that's like saying a book or documentary on music shouldn't include Rock music as the whole of music history dwarfs the time that rock has been available.

Or that movies should never have incorporated sound as there were many people who were against the use of sound in movies.

Things evolve. Heck the clothing you are wearing is probably different than what your great, great grandfather wore in style. Or do you don your bowler hat and spats every Saturday night so you can go stepping out

its called MMO  "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE"   not  SPG "SINGLE PLAYER GAME"

what the point of playing multiplayer game if your not gonna play with others? might as well go play super mario and save thos

100x lives

Originally posted by heerobya 

I understand that if I want to get the best rewards in the game, I have to participate in the group and raid level content, because that is how traditional MMORPGs are designed and I like that kind of system.

So I go back to the original topic, solo players do not "deserve" the same gear as small group players, and small group players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders because they are not participating in the content that requires this gear and as such rewards it.

You say 'traditional' and I say 'archaic' and 'trap the early devs fell into'.  In the end we are arguing over the 'essence of the game'.  How far can we strip away the fluff and feature creep before we get to what defines the game?  I see nothing wrong with stripping away raiding and gear based progression becasue to me that is not what MMORPGs are about and it is just extra fluf that was added and is now weighting us down. 

In the end if the raiders do not want to 'play nice' and share their content/gear then their reward system will have to be seperated from the rest of the game.  They will 'deserve' items that help them raid but are irrelevant to the rest of the game.  The issue will be moot.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Well you use the word traditional a lot. You are aware (and no reason that you wouldn't be) that most of the content you experience has evolved over time and in some instances has incorporated other types of ideas in order to evolve?

I mean, that's like saying a book or documentary on music shouldn't include Rock music as the whole of music history dwarfs the time that rock has been available.

Or that movies should never have incorporated sound as there were many people who were against the use of sound in movies.

Things evolve. Heck the clothing you are wearing is probably different than what your great, great grandfather wore in style. Or do you don your bowler hat and spats every Saturday night so you can go stepping out

Actually I do don my bowler hats and spats every Saturday night so I can go stepping out... kidding.

No I understand your point, but all I am saying is that "if it aint broke don't fix it" and no one has done that better then World of Warcraft.

But the common misconception is that even if you follow that saying, you still can't have any innovation or evolution. I disagree.

The wheel is still the wheel and has always been the wheel but we no longer make them out of stone and wood anymore, we have innovated and evolved the design.

It's still a wheel though.

So you can have a very traditional MMOPRG that is very evolved and innovative. In fact I am waiting for one, because I've been playing WoW for so long I'm a bit burned out.

That being said, SW: ToR and FF XIV are my two most anticipated titles because they are making or suppose to be making some major innovations that may very well evolve the entire genre, but not enough information has surfaced to validate those suppositions yet.

I do think the next generation will allow for greater reward through solo and small group play, but I hope not at the detriment of the raiding game. I quite enjoy the solo to small group to large group progression.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by heerobya 

I understand that if I want to get the best rewards in the game, I have to participate in the group and raid level content, because that is how traditional MMORPGs are designed and I like that kind of system.

So I go back to the original topic, solo players do not "deserve" the same gear as small group players, and small group players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders because they are not participating in the content that requires this gear and as such rewards it.

You say 'traditional' and I say 'archaic' and 'trap the early devs fell into'.  In the end we are arguing over the 'essence of the game'.  How far can we strip away the fluff and feature creep before we get to what defines the game?  I see nothing wrong with stripping away raiding and gear based progression becasue to me that is not what MMORPGs are about and it is just extra fluf that was added and is now weighting us down. 

In the end if the raiders do not want to 'play nice' and share their content/gear then their reward system will have to be seperated from the rest of the game.  They will 'deserve' items that help them raid but are irrelevant to the rest of the game.  The issue will be moot.

Oh don't get me wrong I'd be happier then a dingo up a gum tree if they made a quality, AAA quality, polished, Ultima Online part 2 that was my favorite game and it had no gear or raiding or any levels or any of that....

But I am a realist, I just don't see it happening.

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by MisterZebub

This argument is completely  moot. You and the rest of us can sit here and argue what a MMORPG should and should not be and what type of player deserves what reward. At that end of the day the whole discussion is worthless. The reason? Cold hard cash. Wow's success has shown companies that old school "hardcore" game mechanics doom the game to at best lukewarm success. For a game company to ignore or alienate the casual or solo player is cutting their own throat. Sadly the future of "hardcore" mmorpgs isn't looking that hardcore. Effort, risk vs reward, and frankly, skill mean nothing in the MMORPG world anymore. Only two things make a player deserving to game makers that want to shoot for the same success as Wow these days. Time and money invested.

 

You should read my other thread on why Blizzard "get's it" and understand how wrong you are.

It's just no one else has done it since Blizzard. They make hardcore games that are accessable to casuals. If you can't see that, you have been blinded by the propoganda on this site.

Read the article, it's a good one and it's about StarCraft II which is awesome just because it's StarCraft II.

Actually MisterZebub isn't completely wrong as you suggest.

DaoC has an interrupt code that stops any caster or healer from casting his spells if attacked. Which a caster would need to recast his spell and if interupted again , recast his spell. With good crowd control or dps aggro, you could lock down a caster or healer with these interrupts.

WoW put out the setback timer on spells with a chance to interrupt. What has the next great <cough sarcasm> Warhammer done? Adopted the set back timer. So even with interrupts you will almost always still cast that spell it'll just take .5 seconds longer. Kiting isn't as necessary and battelfield positions aren't either.

So that is one mechanic that was dumbed down or made more casual friendly, whichever terms you prefer, that was changed so more people could play the game and not get as owned by the hardcores.

Originally posted by getbacks23

its called MMO  "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE"   not  SPG "SINGLE PLAYER GAME"

 

what the point of playing multiplayer game if your not gonna play with others? might as well go play super mario and save thos

100x lives

Yes, it's a massively multi-player game, look at all the people.  You're trying to define what interactions take place within the game however and that's not something you have the ability to do.  It's not a MASSIVELY MULTI-TEAMING game.  You can do that if you want, but you don't have to.  You have a choice in how you want to play, the presence of a lot of people makes it, by definition, massively multi-player, stop pretending you get to define it any farther than it already is.

"You should read my other thread on why Blizzard "get's it" and understand how wrong you are.

It's just no one else has done it since Blizzard. They make hardcore games that are accessable to casuals. If you can't see that, you have been blinded by the propoganda on this site.

Read the article, it's a good one and it's about StarCraft II which is awesome just because it's StarCraft II."

Oh Blizzard gets it alright. They have perfected their game play into an endless telescoping hallway to keep people obsessively throwing away their time and money for nothing of any real redeeming value.

And anything in Wow being hardcore? Sorry but I must respectfully disagree. While good reflexes, learning how the classes work work for and against each other, and learning the best ways to run through a raid dungeon can make getting your pointless epic shiny shinies quicker. A person who just plods along like a determined tortoise can do just as well with just a little more time invested.

And I've been blinded by this site? How strange. And here I thought I was drawing on my own personal experience of  10 years playing online games, combined with my observations of watching friends and family doggedly work their way through their various  Wow obsessions. However thank you for that little jibe. It gives me quite a bit of insight into the mind of the person I'm wasting my time with. Have fun doggedly obsessing your way through the forums while trying to convert the "blinded" masses.

And I offer my honest apologies for not vapidly agreeing with your point of view.  There are still some of us out here who remember what the hell MMORPGs used to be and we are not happy with the genre being turned into nothing more than a overhyped series of mindless mental masturbation simulators.

Originally posted by Greenie

Actually MisterZebub isn't completely wrong as you suggest.

DaoC has an interrupt code that stops any caster or healer from casting his spells if attacked. Which a caster would need to recast his spell and if interupted again , recast his spell. With good crowd control or dps aggro, you could lock down a caster or healer with these interrupts.

WoW put out the setback timer on spells with a chance to interrupt. What has the next great <cough sarcasm> Warhammer done? Adopted the set back timer. So even with interrupts you will almost always still cast that spell it'll just take .5 seconds longer. Kiting isn't as necessary and battelfield positions aren't either.

So that is one mechanic that was dumbed down or made more casual friendly, whichever terms you prefer, that was changed so more people could play the game and not get as owned by the hardcores.

Casters being able to own melee with CC, or conversely melee being able to own or "lock down" casters and healers like that sounds a lot like overuse of CC mechanics to me.

I like to be able to actually play my character, and like to defeat someone else who is actively playing their character, not some CC rat race it's my least favorite part of any PvP game is CC. It's not strategy to me, or skill, it's bad game mechanics IMO.

Rewards just need to match the difficulty it takes to get them.  No solo aspect of any MMO has ever been difficult, EVER.   It maybe takes a heck of a long time to accomplish, might be boring as all hell, but it sure isn't difficult to figure out.  A raid on the other hand takes coordination, execution, strategy AND TIME.  Raiding deserves the best rewards.  Sorry, and I'm not big raiding fan either.  I enjoy doing it a few times during the "feeling out" process, since killing that big boss the first time is always a major rush for a MMO.  A great team accomplishment.  But over and over again is just too much for me as with any activity.  I won't grind for a few hours a day for any reward either.  If I'm not being challenged in a good way or exploring new content, I'm not playing anymore.  I'm not ignorant enough to expect a MMO developer to create balanced, FUN solo content for every class either.  Thats just unrealistic.  A great single player RPG maybe lasts 50 hrs or less if you're lucky when you take out the filler.  Expecting a MMO to provide the same sort of solo content thats supposed to last 100s of hours with so many different combinations of class setups and skill combinations is crazy. 

If solo content really could be as difficult as a raid, I'm all for it, but I can't see how it could be realistically done.

In a video game, you "deserve" whatever is coded in a way that you can attain it.

The point isn't that casuals/soloers want equal rewards in games that are already designed to exclusively reward hardcore players  and raiders; we'd just like a game or two where  casuals and soloers had eventual access to attaining the top content and rewards in the game. That way we can go play that game and know that eventually we, too, can enjoy the top content. Hardcore players and raiders can play other games, already in abundance, that are designed around their playstyle.

Originally posted by heerobya

I'm all about casual gamers and casual gaming but honestly, you really expect to get the same reward as the hardcore players?

Isn't that a bit unrealistic?

Blizzard doesn't seem to think it's unrealistic. That's why WoW is horrid.

This is what happens when you have the entire game based on gear and stat bonuses. I give them 1-2 more expansions before things get silly. Come on now, how high can you go with stat/gear bonus before things get rediculious?

Originally posted by Briansho

This is what happens when you have the entire game based on gear and stat bonuses. I give them 1-2 more expansions before things get silly. Come on now, how high can you go with stat/gear bonus before things get rediculious?

uhmmm 2 expansions ago?

Originally posted by getbacks23

its called MMO  "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE"   not  SPG "SINGLE PLAYER GAME"

 

what the point of playing multiplayer game if your not gonna play with others? might as well go play super mario and save thos

100x lives

Because "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE" doesn't preclude playing alongside others and does not pigeon hole someone into having to group with someone. But this has been discussed already. As a matter of fact there is a blog/article on the front page submitted by an MMORPG.com staff member (think it's a staff member) that addresses the idea that grouping is not for everyone.

For instance, you might be the type of person who goes to a club or bar or wherever and would have no problem talking in depth with strangers and maybe even making a time to get together with those said strangers later that evenin'.

However, not everyone is like this. Tney might go with a few friends and never fraternize with the people sitting next to them. And there are even people who would go and just get a table by themselves and maybe bring a book and just eat by themselves but enjoy the lively atmosphere of that pub. They could just eat by themselves at home but they choose to go out.

Originally posted by heerobya

I'm all about casual gamers and casual gaming but honestly, you really expect to get the same reward as the hardcore players?

Isn't that a bit unrealistic?

Here's a question for you:

Hardcore raiders get the best gear because they do the most difficult and hardcore content: the raids.

If you are a solo player who doesn't do raids, why do you need the same gear as someone who raids?

You don't. Oh, I get it. You just FEEL inferior.

Well, there is NOTHING in the game you can't solo that you are suppose to be able to solo with the best gear available from soloing.

HINT: If you don't raid, you don't need raid gear to do anything.

There is no group dungeon content you can't complete in a group while only having group dungeon-level gear.

There is no solo content you can't solo complete while only have solo-level gear.

Leave the e-peen at home and open your eyes man.

The only people who "need" the best, highest level, most uber epic gear are those who are doing the most difficult content.

In terms of PvP, well, I don't think PvP can ever be "balanced" completely in a level/gear based MMORPG.

now this makes you  some sort of MMORPG Socrates  you think ? And btw no suprise most ppl go for solo playing in mmos

when you see how intolerant gaming communitys are these days . bunch of  ' i know it all better '  pricks.

And if  even if you dislike it  , those casuals pay the same money as you do so it might be not too unlogic to open chances for them to achive something meaningfull too , even  if it seems unfair to you

Originally posted by heerobya

 

Casters being able to own melee with CC, or conversely melee being able to own or "lock down" casters and healers like that sounds a lot like overuse of CC mechanics to me.

I like to be able to actually play my character, and like to defeat someone else who is actively playing their character, not some CC rat race it's my least favorite part of any PvP game is CC. It's not strategy to me, or skill, it's bad game mechanics IMO.

And that is your opinion, which seems to be the majority opinion which is why game companies changed the mechanics. It still is a dumbing down of the system just to make it easier.

But to explain WHY it was like it was. It helped balance out damage at range and up close. If a caster could keep range, he could keep his damage output up. It made kiting necessary and good kiters were good casters. You might think that CC was a rat race but only the very good players excelled at utilitzing CC. All CC had immunitiy timers on them with the exception of interrupts. Casters were also able to use a quickcast skill (that was free) in order to cast a spell. That could either be a mez, root, or stun depending on the class you played. 

Via realm abilities there were counters to CC and melee damage for casters. Everyone had options to better their class but the end result always was : How good you were at your class.

Warhammer's CC is insanely ridiculous and one of the many reasons DaoC'rs went back to daoC.  Because after seeing what horrible CC reallly was, DaoC's Cc was pretty much the best system we have.

The funny part is, you've already made a judgement based on a few sentences I stated, that barely touched on a CC mechanic. You haven't experienced it, you have no first hand knowledge of it and more than likely you've probably never even seen it in action for better or worse. It's no wonder I disagree with you so much, I will at least keep an open mind until I have experienced a gameplay mechanic before deeming it good or bad.

Originally posted by getbacks23

its called MMO  "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE"   not  SPG "SINGLE PLAYER GAME"

 

what the point of playing multiplayer game if your not gonna play with others? might as well go play super mario and save thos

100x lives

Where do you get off saying playing with others equates grouping.  When I solo, I'm chatting WITH other players.  When I solo, I do run by heals and buffs.  When I solo, I help kill a mob that is killing another player.  When I solo, I participate in the game's economy.  When I solo, I am surrounded by other players. 

Your narrow minded definition is the reaon why this industry is stuck in such a deep rut.