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Originally posted by Zorvan You're so wrong I don't even know where to begin. Leveling is leveling, whether you are leveling levels or leveling skills, you are still starting out as crap and earning ( leveling ) yourself to something better.
You don't level skills, WoW does skill leveling, your skills only go higher as you level. In games like Ultima Online, the skill system is more imserive, more balanced, you get slightly better as you raise it by .1, you can manage your skills anyway you want to without classes, it adds hundreds of more possibilites to the game world in both PvE and PvP, it is much more real and much more imserive.. But the point of a game like UO and Darkfall is not to level grind your skills, that takes longer, you gain skills as you experience all the content which are at your fingertips from the very beginning, the best armor, the best equipment, mounts, if you are a smart player, you can get it within some days.. Darkfall is a really well balanced game and so is UO, your equipment and gear do not determine the outcome of PvP, skills and stratedgy do.. You don't start out as crap, in UO, I gave a brand new player a 18x18 house, and 20 million gold and some of the best equipment I had just because I wanted to, and he had no skills, he acquired what I could not do in UO in the first 4 years.. Same thing in Darkfall, I am still working on my skills, but I am not paying attention to raising them, as I do sea battles, seiges, clan warfare, PvE to get gold and gather resources and make armor for my clan, I am gaining in all my skills, but I am not trying to raise them, I am trying to experience all the awesome content... Some of my skills in Darkfall are maxed and I have not been playing very long.. |
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The problem isn't starting at level 1. The problem is that the leveling process feels so god damn similar. I was about to puke forcing myself to level up in LOTRO, the first 10 levels are like a carbon copy of everything you've already done in WoW, except the combat is even less interesting. |
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Originally posted by Trenchgun Hence the term "WoW copy". |
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Originally posted by Zorvan
So I'm guessing you don't play singleplayer rpgs at all? Because it's the same mechanics, only one has more people.
The difference (in my opinion) though is that single player RPG's are far more immersive, having better stories, combat, ect. ToR will be the first MMO (again in my opinion) to come anywhere close to the quality of single player games. |
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Tabula Rasa had an interesting take on this. Once you reached a landmark level, I believe 15 was the first, you could "clone" your character. So your alt could start from 15. And yes, you could still alter its appearance, but you could branch off to another class without having to do all the low level stuff again and again. Frankly the only thing I really liked about the game. |
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Much better to start at max level and have all the best gear possible... |
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Originally posted by patrikd23
Well, there is one reason for the grind, it simply extends the game, and the amount of months you pay a sub fee. I'd have no problem with a max charactger option for those that want to skip the grind and get right to thre end game. 180 bucks for a max toon, with decent gear appropriate for the max level. That's 12 months at 14.95 per month, rounded up. This would not affect me at all. You'd be playing the end game, which I'm not playing yet, and you would pay just as much as me if I take a year to get to the end game. So sure, pay the money and skip the content if you want to, seems like a waste but go for it. That' being said I would like a more shallow leveling curve. I would like to see less time to reach max-1 level to max level, and more time to go from level 1 to level 2. Usually, it's like play 10 minutes, Ding! Level 2. Play two months, Ding! max-1 to max level. I'd be happy to play level 1 a bit longer, and max-1 a bit shorter.
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Originally posted by Mylon I want what I want and I want it now - wow - thanks for stating that - You exemplify the type of player that I hate the most. |
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"Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it. " - Greg Anderson "'Nuff Said" - Stan Lee |
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"Life's a journey, not a destination" - Steven Tyler of Aerosmith |
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Originally posted by SavageSage
"Fiction writing is great, you can make up almost anything." "I can't really remember the names of the clubs that we went to." "Sure there have been injuries and deaths in boxing - but none of them serious."
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"Instant gratification- the best kind of gratification." -Average MMO player of 2009 |
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I think after a certin amount of time this should be an option in games, like i played wow for about 4 years or how ever long its been going on i started when it came out in eu. Now ive rerolled numerious times on diffrent servers, recently went back with some friends to lvl again and at this stage lvl another char to 80 just isnt going to happen im so bored of the leveling when ive dont i about 20 times already , there should come a stage where depending on how old you account is you get given this option. But i can understand any reason's against it , mainly it could be detramentle to game world being empty at the lower level area's |
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I'd likely not play a game where you just get dumped into the boring tedium that is most MMO's end games. Oh yay, let's go grind dungeons over and over and over without bothering to get to check out the rest of the world because...well, it's not even needed. In fact, why bother having an entire MMO world? We'll just make all dungeons and a home city where you sell the crap you get from the dungeons that you don't want. Let's not even bother with NPCs except for mobs in the dungeons, or with Lore. You don't need to think of quests or stories or any of that rubbish when we can just start right at end game and get to the fun dungeon grinding for leet pixelated stuff!
Yeah. Boring. I'll pass on that concept, thanks.
End game is probably the dullest part of an MMO for me. I like getting to end game better - more stuff to go look at and see and do and experience. I dislike it when tutorials are all the same all the time - AOC's Tortage was the worst example of this even if the main class "story" had you do slightly different things - but once I left that place for the second time I'd had my fill of it and NEVER wanted to have to play through it again - but if an MMO offers a few different starting areas to try out, I'm fine with rolling alts and playing through those areas more than once. There's a wrong and right way to do "tutorial" zones.
Someone brought up the point that not everyone is some leet gamer who automatically knows how to play their class and is all ready to jump right into the raids, too. I sure as heck like a little bit of a learning curve when I roll a new class so I can figure out the ins and outs - leveling...or at least some kind of progression through the game - is what this is for.
Retired: WoW, AoC, LOTRO, FFXI, EQ2, TR, VG, COH Waiting for: FFXIV |
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The OP has an interesting point of view, certainly different from mine. The Tutorial: - if you do not already have a maxed or near maxed character, the tutorial should be mandatory, IMO. This includes single player games. I don't care how many games you've played, the key settings alone are always different, not to mention terminology, etc. Starting at a level other than one - If you have a maxed character already, then I can see allowing you to start a character partway (not at max by a longshot) of the same class only. You will not be as good a player in that final class if you do not. No, you won't. Just my two cents. |
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Just to reiterate a few points and confirm some other posters have made... Levels 1-10 feels the same on every game that it makes me ill thinking of trying another MMO, or even another character. Start with 2 skills, grind mobs, do the same boring "go here" quests until you get your class feature at level 10, and finally the game starts. Sort of. Still incredibly easy and time based, so not really. Another key here is I want a game that keeps the power levels similar. This isn't about skipping content, but in MMOs, the chance of being able to play with other players (because, you know, I do enjoy multiplayer games) is hindered by what server you play on, what side you play on, and what level you are. If any of these factors are different, even if you find someone playing the same game you can't play with them and have to stick with PUGs. Guilds exist, but only max-level guilds have any kind of cohesion and group-capability. By keeping power levels similar, more people will be able to cooperate together. In so many MMOs, half of the population hits max level, and then the 1-(max-1) becomes eerily empty. In WAR for example, levels 1-10 were pretty enjoyable because there was so many people around and the public quests were actually getting done. Levels 11-20 weren't that bad. And then 21+ because awful because the PvE was entirely empty. And even 1-10 lost it's only saving grace after a couple months. The PvP was the only saving grace for that game, except that it still didn't look very promising overall. This one needed special attention:
You seriously need some help. A forced tutorial in every game is nothing more than some weird signs of sadism towards people that have already played far too many games for their own good. Just because someone given a max level character won't be as good as someone who has grinded their way there does not mean someone should not be given all of their tools from the start so they can learn how to use them. You don't give a soldier a pistol and ask him to "earn" his rifle in a FPS. Nor do fighting games start a person off with 3 moves and expect them to earn more. RPG progression is still possible, but it doesn't need to be such a huge gap for the boring parts. 
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Originally posted by Mylon So, first of all, because I don't agree with you, you suggest I need mental help. This is called an ad hominem attack; where you attack a person instead of their idea, in an effort to lessen the idea by lessening the person. Name-calling is immature and has no business in a discussion. Yes, I think in MMOs the tutorial should be mandatory. Here's why: - first of all, they are short, and not in any way torturous as you implied. - it get's pretty tiring seeing people new to the game as the most basic of questions about stuff they'd know if they bothered to it. Second, I don't want to be teamed up with max level characters who are still learning. That's part of the point of levelling, letting you learn your character. So, people skipping the tutorial and going right to end level does affect me in an MMO. |
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Originally posted by Mylon Which MMO's don't let you choose to skip the tutorial? All those I play do. Myself, I play them because they give me an easy level or 2. |
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Maybe just watch a movie instead?
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The perfect MMO for me has no endgame..... but is all about endless leveling ... The perfect MMO would be leveling at a logarithmic scale, With great content all over the place. So it will be very hard for the first player to reach a certain level, while it would be much easier for the 2000th player.
Leveling isn't the problem, as long as its fun. And fun reuires content for at least 4 characters to level in different places.
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Not to throw the OP under the bus to badly, this 'hurry up and have fun' mentality has been around for a while now and seems to have an affect on newly released MMO's. I'm an old school EQ player, the original 'time sink' game as 'new gen' players like to call it. To me as many here have pointed out, it is about the journey. Starting at a lower level allows you to grow with your character. You learn the nuances, the capabilities as well as the limitations. SOE recently launched the Mayong 51/50 Server and I thought I'd jump back on and do some reminiscing. Here you have the classic hurry up motif. I'm playing my old reliable Druid, which is a finesse character with many different capabilities. For a new player to start out with an assortment of Spells and abilities presents a bit of a learning curve. There are certain spells that work in conjunction with one another as well as an array of heals, damage shields and varying buff spells. Yesterday I spent nearly three hours arranging my spell book to have the proper combination of utilities for different situations, this is coming from an experienced player not someone who is trying on a Druid for the first time. Granted, the players who voted on this server have most likely been playing EQ for a while and probably have a working knowledge of the varying classes, but each one has their own set of skills/abilities that require some level of competence to play effectively. I like the richness of trade skills, questing and interacting with players. The game is essentially a mutually supporting system with a level of interdependency. Sadly MMO's have moved away from this social interactive environment to a what's in it for me mind set. I'm glad I was around to enjoy the original MMO's in their original design Risk vs Reward style.
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Should one one starting watching it at the beginning or just start around the middle? ;-)
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Kyleran
 Elite Member
Joined: 9/13/06
"In EVE, no one gives a damn about a fair fight." - chafin |
Originally posted by SwampRob So, first of all, because I don't agree with you, you suggest I need mental help. This is called an ad hominem attack; where you attack a person instead of their idea, in an effort to lessen the idea by lessening the person. Name-calling is immature and has no business in a discussion. Yes, I think in MMOs the tutorial should be mandatory. Here's why: - first of all, they are short, and not in any way torturous as you implied. - it get's pretty tiring seeing people new to the game as the most basic of questions about stuff they'd know if they bothered to it. Second, I don't want to be teamed up with max level characters who are still learning. That's part of the point of levelling, letting you learn your character. So, people skipping the tutorial and going right to end level does affect me in an MMO.
I'll bet I could take a character that is within 10 levels of max in any modern MMO and master every aspect of it before I hit end game. The first 40 (or whatever) levels are generally uninteresting filler and that's what MMO Dev's need to change.
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon EVE Cult member since May 2007 Regarding EVE: "To be honest, I think God himself created this game." - Shek Regarding new players in EVE: "Think of yourself as a child released into a park full of pedophiles..." - Eleazaros |
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Replying to the OP. MMORPG is not for you. Go play online action games. 1. You played your fair share of games so you do not need to tutorials? My, someone have an awefully big opinion of himself. In more games where combat system is so WoW-ish that it is easy that would be one thing. However, certain games such as FFX I someone can easily tell the difference between those that read up on the game and those that doesn't. Those that read up are those that does great and win fights. Those are doesn't are the ones that single handed wipe the whole party/alliance down. (FFXI is scaled so that the players are always alot weaker than mobs of the same level, so player skill matters in it's complex skill system and formulas) 2. You want to to get to the meat without spending time progress? The idea about RPG since the old day is that you don't start out strong enough to take out the final boss. This is MMORPG, it is a RPG game, it is not here to please your every little whims. It is here to entertain and make money. If you are not entertained, leave the genre, no one is forcing you to play. You want the meat, but you never slaughtered an animal nor hunt for it. You want the meat right off the bat because you are used to buying them from the supermarket in a nice little package. The hunt and the slaughter is called game progression. Sure it is not always fun to hunt or slaughter, but that is how you get to the meat the satisfying way. Buying it off supermarket is modern convenience and not how nature work originally. 3. A little note about human behavior. Human tend to be more interested in something they need to work for to achieve. Yes, things can be long a tedious, however it is better than instant gratification that turns boring within 5 seconds. Example: Lets say you have this very fun and complex strategy game. Figuring out and trying to play well is quite a bit of work and rquires some thinking. One day you get on the internet and found someone made a hack for it, it allow you to manipulate many things in the game that basically make all the strategy meaningless. You downloaded it and used it in game. Now you have infinite money, troops, economy, etc etc w/e applies. However, the hack takes away all the game progression and strategy. You put away the game since you can now beat it at any time so you don't need to play it now. The game end up unfinished and gathering dust somewhere. There is an old saying "Nothing worth doing is easy" Not the most flawless saying, but have alot of truth to it. |
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ParkCarsHere
Hard Core Member
Joined: 9/25/05
"Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance." -Sun Tzu |
Originally posted by Neosai Yes! I completely agree with everything you just said. Everyone needs to read this above post... everyone! |
