Originally posted by Cephus404

Yes, it's a multiplayer game.  There's a player.  There's another player over there.  Everywhere you look, there are players.  That doesn't mean that they all have to be in a team to play, that's the point.  An MMO is just a game where there are lots of people playing in the same world at the same time.  Massively Multi-player.  Not Massively Teaming.  Not Massively Grouping.  

The only reason an end game exists is to keep people paying their monthly fees for a longer period of time.  Most people go on and create another character in a different class and do it all over again.  Being at the end, being thrown a few scraps so you can raid or PvP is entirely boring to me.

You're like a lot of people. I think most end-games these days are convoluded as hell, but there is some fun to be found.

It doesn't have anything to do with grouping being difficult. You clearly just don't like people, which is cool I guess. You like watching your character progress, but probably don't like it if it takes too long or is too hard.

This is why games like Eve are great, I loved Eve and Lineage 2 and DAOC. When you got powerful enough in those games you didn't really think about "end-game", at least I didn't. In Eve there really is no end game unless you choose not to get involved in a corp, in which case you're just wasting your money. I'm looking forward to Mortal Online and Earthrise specifically for their large guild aspects. PvP, taking territory, exploring for resources, all fun stuff that is "end-game" but can be so much fun that you never think about it like that.

In Eve you just play the game, it'll be the same in Mortal and Earthrise. You're just playing the game, getting stronger, finding a playstyle that works for you. Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better, unless you're going that route. In Eve you can very easily stay in small, but increasingly expensive, ships. Interceptors, stealth bombers, assault ships...so on and so forth...and never see a battleship if you don't want to.

Mortal and ER are set up to -not- be about getting your next shiny. There is "better" gear, to a point, but it's not a major focus.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Yes, it's a multiplayer game.  There's a player.  There's another player over there.  Everywhere you look, there are players.  That doesn't mean that they all have to be in a team to play, that's the point.  An MMO is just a game where there are lots of people playing in the same world at the same time.  Massively Multi-player.  Not Massively Teaming.  Not Massively Grouping.  

The only reason an end game exists is to keep people paying their monthly fees for a longer period of time.  Most people go on and create another character in a different class and do it all over again.  Being at the end, being thrown a few scraps so you can raid or PvP is entirely boring to me.

It appears you didn't understand my point at all.

It seems that you are asking for simply a multiplayer game (a single player game that can sometimes be played with others online).  You can have character progression at your own speed, no part of the game is going to drastically exceed your ability to invest time, and item acquisition is simply for playing the game itself. 

There are hundreds if not thousands of these types of games.  Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Diablo II, just to name some of the more popular ones.

So why are you posting in a MMOG web site forum?

Originally posted by Meleagar

Here's the difference between us: you want exclusive rewards that are tailored to your playstyle; I want equal rewards for equal effort (time invested) across playstyles.

Bzzzt! Try again. The difference between us is that I accept that if I go into a "Massively MULTIPLAYER Game" and choose to spend my time soloing, there are things I simply will not get to do or have. If I wasn't okay with that and wasn't having fun anyways, I would *gasp* play something else.

You (as a representative of the entitled soloer crowd) appear to believe that you can choose to play games that are designed to encourage teamwork and require group effort for the best and biggest rewards, then choose to not play that way and whine about how you "deserve" access to the same content.

It has been said over and over that there are games out there that cater to that playstyle - even many that call themselves MMOs. So play them! Why does game XX which is clearly unsuited to your playstyle have to change how it works to accomodate you? No one is forcing you to play it.

Originally posted by Dewm

 

This one part of the post I kinda had to laugh at, I dunno maybe you didn't pay WoW that long.

But this is my question, if you arn't going to do endgame raids/groups WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED THAT GEAR??

there is no reson in the world you would need that high end gear, unless you are doing high end raids.

You can go through 100% of wow, without the purple "rare" items....You can go to the AH and get sweet green and even blue armor..you can make it, but your complaining about this 1% of gear that you don't even NEED?!

It makes no sense dude!

The reason for this is that fundamentally thsi is nto about getting equal gear but EQUAL CONTENT.  The biggest sin of vanilla WoW is that it created this mindset that equalled gear with content.  To see new content you needed new gear.  Also new content was primarily group based so to see new content you need to get new gear and be part of an organized group.  The soloers and casual groupers were left with table scraps for new content.  In order to experience the 'good' content they had to engage in a playstyle that they found annoying, boring and outright soul-crashing.  At the same time they realized that the raiders were getting all this new content and they really did not put that much real effort into it.  So being conditioned into thinking that gear = content they started demanding equal access to the new gear.  They should have instead requested equal access to new content.

Blizzard's saving grace is that they realized this and have spent the last two expansions trying to fix this.  They next patch pretty much tries to take away the idea that gear = content and instead make gear marely a tool to access new content and make it easier to switch up your playstyle if you want.  So the soloers and casual groupers get the gear they need to do their content and the raiders get gear they need to do their content and if a soloer wants to raid they can easily switch over without having to adapt the raider lifestyle completely.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Dewm

 

This one part of the post I kinda had to laugh at, I dunno maybe you didn't pay WoW that long.

But this is my question, if you arn't going to do endgame raids/groups WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED THAT GEAR??

there is no reson in the world you would need that high end gear, unless you are doing high end raids.

You can go through 100% of wow, without the purple "rare" items....You can go to the AH and get sweet green and even blue armor..you can make it, but your complaining about this 1% of gear that you don't even NEED?!

It makes no sense dude!

 

The reason for this is that fundamentally thsi is nto about getting equal gear but EQUAL CONTENT.  The biggest sin of vanilla WoW is that it created this mindset that equalled gear with content.  To see new content you needed new gear.  Also new content was primarily group based so to see new content you need to get new gear and be part of an organized group.  The soloers and casual groupers were left with table scraps for new content.  In order to experience the 'good' content they had to engage in a playstyle that they found annoying, boring and outright soul-crashing.  At the same time they realized that the raiders were getting all this new content and they really did not put that much real effort into it.  So being conditioned into thinking that gear = content they started demanding equal access to the new gear.  They should have instead requested equal access to new content.

Blizzard's saving grace is that they realized this and have spent the last two expansions trying to fix this.  They next patch pretty much tries to take away the idea that gear = content and instead make gear marely a tool to access new content and make it easier to switch up your playstyle if you want.  So the soloers and casual groupers get the gear they need to do their content and the raiders get gear they need to do their content and if a soloer wants to raid they can easily switch over without having to adapt the raider lifestyle completely.

wow, almost makes WoW appealing, almost. (I will admit to being someone who does not like the most "popular" game out of stubborn instinct - lol @ me)

Originally posted by Meleagar

...I realized the sad truth about modern MMOGs; they're largely programmed and populated by social misfits and outcasts whose only hope of being accepted or admired by a group is if grouping is forced on everyone.  In other words, the casuals - those with lives outside the game - are forced to group up with the internet game junkies and addicts if they want to achieve the higher rewards...

So, if I understand you correctly, nearly all gamers and devs are social misfits and outcasts?  You and I do not even know each other; how can you make such an assessment about my character?  This strikes me as being more than a little arrogant on your part, but it is entirely possible that I have misunderstood you here.

This is why they have such an inapprorpiate, hostile reaction to such reasonable suggestions as equal rewards for equal solo effort, and offline advancement systems, ranting and raving if even one such game is considered; if such games are made, then casuals will flock to them and abandon the misfits, leaving them no one to feel superior to, and offering them no solace from their social ineptitude by being the targets of their ridicule and condescension (see: psychological transferrance).

"Equal" is an entirely relative - and subjective - term.  There is also no proof that "casuals" will flock to games which cater towards solo play - as one who plays predominantly solo (but who will and does group), I prefer that there be plenty of people around and make liberal use of the ./ignore command when I feel it is necessary.

This is why current MMOG communities suck; they are built on the dynamic of rewarding those who are the least socially skilled the the most socially problematic in real life, those who believe that "community" is based solely on how your specific "build" can be used by the guild for everyone to get what they want. That's what these people believe "community"is about; what you can offer them as a function of end-game rewards.

Really?  MMO communities "suck?"  I have found wonderful communities in every MMO that I have played.  "Community" is built based upon mutual respect:  if someone repeatedly shows an utter lack of respect, that is what the ./ignore command exists for.

They're clueless as to what real community is about, and why people - good, socially adept people - will group up and even raid for no other reason than to have a good tme together, whether or not it brigns them exclusive, superior rewards. They'll group up for in-game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons, and then all run naked to fight the biggest dragon around ... not because it's going to get them any gear ... but because it's fun.

For some people, raiding is fun.  For others, PvP is fun.  Each person has their own interests and ideas of fun.  Is there some particular reason that others' ideas of fun are offensive to you, or am I misunderstanding you again?

You see, people who function well in a community aren't about trying to exclude others from rewards; they're about helping everyone get them, because real community isn't about who has what gear (and who doesn't); real community is about who has the best stories, the best sense of humor, or the best attitude.  People who have good social skills advocate for equal rewards; they don't advocate that people be deliberately excluded just so a few can feel superior.

I know plenty of PvPers and raiders with excellent social skills.  Perhaps your encounters with others have been less than pleasant, but that does not make your experience (or mine, for that matter) true of all gamers.

This is why MMOG communities currently suck; they attract socially inept people that come to such games to force others to have to accept them in their groups and guilds, because they are designed so that only the most socially inept and disconnected people can achieve the highest rewards.  The less time you spend in real life relationships... the bigger and badder you will be online.

Build a game dedicated to the casual gamer through equal solo rewards and offline character development, and I guarantee you'll see a much better, well-adjusted and thriving community - a real community, not just guilds of users stepping over everyone to get their next piece of gear. 

Well, I thank you for calling me and thousands - if not millions - of others socially inept and unable to maintain a life outside of cyberspace.  Generally, attitudes such as the one you seem to have displayed here are why games and forums have ignore features. ;)

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

You're like a lot of people. I think most end-games these days are convoluded as hell, but there is some fun to be found.

I just don't happen to have much fun doing it.  I don't like raiding, I don't like PvP, I don't want to grind for gear, all of that is entirely boring to me.  Pretty much without exception, all of my max-cap characters are retired, they exist to help people and buff people, nothing more.  Once you reach the top, what point is there in going on?

It doesn't have anything to do with grouping being difficult. You clearly just don't like people, which is cool I guess. You like watching your character progress, but probably don't like it if it takes too long or is too hard.

Yes, I hate people because I've spent the last 6 hours sitting in a game talking to... people.  And helping... people.  And doing org business and recruiting people and buffing people.  Yup, you got me, I hate people. 

This is why games like Eve are great, I loved Eve and Lineage 2 and DAOC. When you got powerful enough in those games you didn't really think about "end-game", at least I didn't. In Eve there really is no end game unless you choose not to get involved in a corp, in which case you're just wasting your money. I'm looking forward to Mortal Online and Earthrise specifically for their large guild aspects. PvP, taking territory, exploring for resources, all fun stuff that is "end-game" but can be so much fun that you never think about it like that.

I find PvP, especially the man-to-man version, incredibly boring.  It's a dick-waving contest, my twinked out PvP toon can beat your twinked out PvP toon.  No thanks, I pass.  Something larger is fun from time to time, but not as an every day thing.  It puts me to sleep.

In Eve you just play the game, it'll be the same in Mortal and Earthrise. You're just playing the game, getting stronger, finding a playstyle that works for you. Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better, unless you're going that route. In Eve you can very easily stay in small, but increasingly expensive, ships. Interceptors, stealth bombers, assault ships...so on and so forth...and never see a battleship if you don't want to.

And that's fine, I've played EvE and while it's not the kind of game I like, I don't begrudge anyone who wants to play it.  But again, PvP isn't my thing, that's what EvE is, I don't play.

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

Originally posted by Cephus404

Yes, it's a multiplayer game.  There's a player.  There's another player over there.  Everywhere you look, there are players.  That doesn't mean that they all have to be in a team to play, that's the point.  An MMO is just a game where there are lots of people playing in the same world at the same time.  Massively Multi-player.  Not Massively Teaming.  Not Massively Grouping.  

The only reason an end game exists is to keep people paying their monthly fees for a longer period of time.  Most people go on and create another character in a different class and do it all over again.  Being at the end, being thrown a few scraps so you can raid or PvP is entirely boring to me.

It appears you didn't understand my point at all.

It seems that you are asking for simply a multiplayer game (a single player game that can sometimes be played with others online).  You can have character progression at your own speed, no part of the game is going to drastically exceed your ability to invest time, and item acquisition is simply for playing the game itself. 

There are hundreds if not thousands of these types of games.  Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Diablo II, just to name some of the more popular ones.

So why are you posting in a MMOG web site forum?

Because you're the one insisting that it's inherently something else, but the evidence all says otherwise.  Apparently, since you *CAN* play solo on virtually every game on the market, since you *DON'T* need to team to beat any of the games, your assessment of what an MMO is... is wrong.

Try again.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Your reasoning here is completely flawed. What do you mean by "couldn't get better gear"? Was there some magical little gnome-orc sitting there straight-arming you saying, "No gear for you!" like the soup nazi? Seriously I don't get people like you.

I don't get what you mean by 'access'. You want to be able to solo everything and get everything, that I get. What I don't get is why you want to come to a genre that says, MASSIVELY MULTI-PLAYER before anything else. There are PLENTY of single-player RPG games out there, go play them. I have friends I play with, we play MMO's because they offer the ability for us to do stuff together that offers us a challenge as a group. Do you soloers just not have any friends? I'm not asking to be mean, it's a completely legitimate question.

I play MMO's to have fun with friends and socialize with people I wouldn't otherwise meet. I've talked with people from Japan, Scotland, Israel, China, Russia....list goes on really and become what more or less could be defined as friends with them. I've even met my Scottish friend irl when he's come to the states on vacation a few times. I would never have been able to meet and talk with all these different people any other way. I've made friends through games and later found that they live within ten minutes of me, adding to my RL circle of friends.

So I play MMO's for - PvP, other group content, socializing with people I would otherwise have NEVER met and exploring. What do you solo people play for? I'm not saying you have to make friends the way I have, but if you aren't even making in-game connections then what are you doing? Why would you even bother having group content if you could just solo everything and get the same rewards.

And stop with the 'we aren't asking for equal rewards' bs, because you are. If you got lesser rewards then people with better gear would still be chosen over you, thereby "blocking" you from getting better gear. Or nobody would bother grouping because there wouldn't be any point when you can just solo through everything. There is a MASSIVE difference in view point here though.

My viewpoint: I have friends, we play these games because they -OFFER- group content that is fun for us.

Soloer viewpoint: I don't have friends and don't want the MAN -FORCING- me to find some to group with.

That's how I honestly see the two camps, by and large. I don't see it as "forced" group content. I see it as, "content my buddies and I can enjoy together".

I'm guessing you don't play many MMOs. Let's just use WoW as an example here, since most of us have played it. If you start out with a new character, you can solo him up to level 80 without much trouble. When you get to that point, you'll be decked out in greens and some blues (and maybe 1 or 2 crappy purples). Then, you go ask if you can do a high level raid. You'll be asked what kind of gear you have, at which point you'll be laughed at and probably put on someones ignore list.

So, yes, there is a little gnome/orc sitting there straight-arming you saying, "No gear for you!" like the soup nazi. That is the very problem I've been trying to address. Group based rewards are fine, but not when you can't get into a group to get what you need. I don't play MMOs so I can solo the whole game. I like playing in groups, it's just that groups don't like playing with me.

And no, this isn't a problem for every MMO. If you start out early in a game and get into a good guild, you'll probably never have any issues.

So let me be perfectly clear - I don't have a problem with people being rewarded for doing a great job in group. I have a problem with people being rewarded for having been rewarded. I don't want to be rewarded with something epic for doing a mundane task. I just want the option of doing an epic task without having to be in a group.

I completely understand that people want MMOs to focus around group based activities. The problem is why people are grouping in the first place. Group content should be fun, challenging and rewarding. But it should not reward you with something you need to go on to the next challenge.

Capiche?

Originally posted by Meleagar

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

so basically your saying that people who want to play and group up in a game that is online/multiplayer is a social outcast?

Or heck even people who just enjoy an actual challenge in a game, is a misfit somehow?

wtf?

 

Nope, that's not what I said.  I said that a game that requires addict level hours of forced grouping to achieve the top game content (the equivalent of "winning" in an MMOG) inherently attracts people with bad social skills in real life and generates a pathetic, shallow basis for "community" in such a game.  Which is why, currently, "community" in such games is driven by have/have-not comparison, guild caste systems and min-max efficiency, and not good communication skills, fun, humor, and character  - which is what most real-life liesure time socialization entails.

So you want a game to mirror real life? ...sounds boring

Notice how you again conflated "grouping up" in such games with good community; there are many chat channels.  Good community in an MMOG has **NOTHING** whatsoever to do with having to form groups to go out and kill stuff and being willing to spend addict-level time to do so; that's not "community", that's a really bad job that good, normal people wouldn't work at if they didn't have to. MMOG "community" currently is like a bad job with immature bosses that require you to work wtih them night and day or else you fall into disfavor.

 Your arguements sound...arrogant.  Sounds like you had some bad experiences in the games you have played and are now here to tell everyone why your idea and opinion somehow matters to the rest of us that enjoy games for what they are.  IMO GTFO

Sorry, but that kind of scenario doesn't foster, IMO, a "good" community, and it's not how I want to spend my leisure time.

Again your "opinion" pops up like a beast that just wont die, what makes you think that your idea of community is so superior to what others enjoy?  Again your opinion and you are entitled to it but i do not think you are going to find a lot of people here to QQ with you.

Originally posted by Meleagar

After reading several players comment about how no  one would group in a game unless they were forced by goals or mechanics to do so, I realized the sad truth about modern MMOGs; they're largely programmed and populated by social misfits and outcasts whose only hope of being accepted or admired by a group is if grouping is forced on everyone.  In other words, the casuals - those with lives outside the game - are forced to group up with the internet game junkies and addicts if they want to achieve the higher rewards; in fact, the casuals have to become like those junkies and addicts if they ever want to see top game content.

This is why they have such an inapprorpiate, hostile reaction to such reasonable suggestions as equal rewards for equal solo effort, and offline advancement systems, ranting and raving if even one such game is considered; if such games are made, then casuals will flock to them and abandon the misfits, leaving them no one to feel superior to, and offering them no solace from their social ineptitude by being the targets of their ridicule and condescension (see: psychological transferrance).

This is why current MMOG communities suck; they are built on the dynamic of rewarding those who are the least socially skilled the the most socially problematic in real life, those who believe that "community" is based solely on how your specific "build" can be used by the guild for everyone to get what they want. That's what these people believe "community"is about; what you can offer them as a function of end-game rewards.

They're clueless as to what real community is about, and why people - good, socially adept people - will group up and even raid for no other reason than to have a good tme together, whether or not it brigns them exclusive, superior rewards. They'll group up for in-game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons, and then all run naked to fight the biggest dragon around ... not because it's going to get them any gear ... but because it's fun.

You see, people who function well in a community aren't about trying to exclude others from rewards; they're about helping everyone get them, because real community isn't about who has what gear (and who doesn't); real community is about who has the best stories, the best sense of humor, or the best attitude.  People who have good social skills advocate for equal rewards; they don't advocate that people be deliberately excluded just so a few can feel superior.

This is why MMOG communities currently suck; they attract socially inept people that come to such games to force others to have to accept them in their groups and guilds, because they are designed so that only the most socially inept and disconnected people can achieve the highest rewards.  The less time you spend in real life relationships... the bigger and badder you will be online.

Build a game dedicated to the casual gamer through equal solo rewards and offline character development, and I guarantee you'll see a much better, well-adjusted and thriving community - a real community, not just guilds of users stepping over everyone to get their next piece of gear. 

So basically you are saying hardcore engame raiders are a bunch of nolifers who spend too much time ingame and are socially inept and thus do not belong in the game.... Wheres the casual player who spends maybe a hour at most and is lucky enough to finish a raid, at least has a good time with his buddies and cares about the process of getting to the end and having fun, rather than the end reward in itself.

You may as well have said

Hardcore = retards

Casual = social peeps.

Though this is far from the truth, my best friend is helplessly addicted to hardcore raiding in WoW, yet in reality he is one of the dorkiest, yet silliest and witty outgoing social person you may ever meet. I think MMO communities suck when you have a bunch of 8 yearolds talking shit in the general all the time. This "Hardcore" Vs "Casual" thing is just stupid, and is a complete fabrication of what has been invented on the forums. It doesn't actually exist AT ALL. You have [Players[,,, and that is it. Find the part of the games community that is right for you. Or you can find a game that specializes in one type of person, and those communities are filled with like minded individuals creating a much more mature experience in some cases.

"I honestly prefer commuties with alot of variety", just not little brats.

Originally posted by Meleagar

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by neosapience

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Why should you get the same rewards I do? Finding a group isn't an issue for me, but I still have to coordinate with other people while you don't. We're spending equal time, but NOT EQUAL EFFORT. Why should you get the same rewards?

Answer that question and you have yourself a valid arguement. You cannot REASONABLY answer that question and still have a leg to stand on, so I'm going to consider this thread over.

 

I think people are missing the point here. It's not about equal reward it's about access. One of the biggest issues I had with WoW was not being able to get good gear, which then prevented me from (you guessed it) getting better gear.

 

It's also important to point out that some classes basically do the same thing in a group as they do in solo play. How would you suggest we reward such classes? Deny them access to good gear? Reward them just for being there?

 

To be honest, issues just like these are exactly why I quit retail and started playing on private servers. I had 100x more fun PvPing on private servers than I ever had on retail. But that's just me...

 

Edit - I don't know, maybe it's just people's retarded sense of values, but... It seems like people want to be rewarded with something unique because they felt they did something other people can't do (or aren't willing to do). In the real world, if you earn $100, you earned $100; the means are completely irrelevant (so long as they're legal). I dunno, I guess all the kiddies are still looking to earn that gold star...

 

This one part of the post I kinda had to laugh at, I dunno maybe you didn't pay WoW that long.

But this is my question, if you arn't going to do endgame raids/groups WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED THAT GEAR??

there is no reson in the world you would need that high end gear, unless you are doing high end raids.

You can go through 100% of wow, without the purple "rare" items....You can go to the AH and get sweet green and even blue armor..you can make it, but your complaining about this 1% of gear that you don't even NEED?!

It makes no sense dude!

So, you'd be totally okay if the only time you could wear that gear was when you were actually in a top end raid, and the rest of the time you had no access to it?
 

Let me spell it out more clearly.

The ONLY reson in World of Warcraft they have purple gear+ lvl 80 is that the player can run the dungons, its part of the multiplayer aspect of the game. (kinda like the areana)

What I am saying is: If you don't want to run the instances/dungons (which require other people) then why do you need the gear? Don't try for a second to tell me that you need it to reach lvl 80. Because thats a load of cr*p. The ONLY reson in World of Warcraft you NEED the high level gear is so you can do the high level raids.

------------------------------------------------------------------

What you are saying is that you want the high level gear without doing the raids. and then you say "well I paid for the game I should be able to access it" why do you want to access it if you arn't going to play that type of game?

Its like saying "blizzard, give me this gear. I have no reson to have it exept to have it.....but I want it."

It's not the community's fault. Games are devoped and marketed in a unique way. Going in-depth on the rant about outcasts and stuff is because the community the way I see it naturally create better solutions to a raid or instance. Here's a good example. The is a huge instance in GW called the Underworld.

You can complete the instance in many ways, here are two:-

1. Go as a standard party, few monks, tanks eles and spend 2-3 hours clearing the instance. You'll have good laughs along the way, enjoy the whole experience overall.

2. Do a speed run with Assassins and clear the UW in 30mins. Much more effective and boring as hell. People will choose that method as it is less time consuming.

It's the devs who need to nerf and nerf and nerf to keep a unique balance where instanced can't be speed runned.

Originally posted by denshing

Originally posted by Meleagar

After reading several players comment about how no  one would group in a game unless they were forced by goals or mechanics to do so, I realized the sad truth about modern MMOGs; they're largely programmed and populated by social misfits and outcasts whose only hope of being accepted or admired by a group is if grouping is forced on everyone.  In other words, the casuals - those with lives outside the game - are forced to group up with the internet game junkies and addicts if they want to achieve the higher rewards; in fact, the casuals have to become like those junkies and addicts if they ever want to see top game content.

This is why they have such an inapprorpiate, hostile reaction to such reasonable suggestions as equal rewards for equal solo effort, and offline advancement systems, ranting and raving if even one such game is considered; if such games are made, then casuals will flock to them and abandon the misfits, leaving them no one to feel superior to, and offering them no solace from their social ineptitude by being the targets of their ridicule and condescension (see: psychological transferrance).

This is why current MMOG communities suck; they are built on the dynamic of rewarding those who are the least socially skilled the the most socially problematic in real life, those who believe that "community" is based solely on how your specific "build" can be used by the guild for everyone to get what they want. That's what these people believe "community"is about; what you can offer them as a function of end-game rewards.

They're clueless as to what real community is about, and why people - good, socially adept people - will group up and even raid for no other reason than to have a good tme together, whether or not it brigns them exclusive, superior rewards. They'll group up for in-game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons, and then all run naked to fight the biggest dragon around ... not because it's going to get them any gear ... but because it's fun.

You see, people who function well in a community aren't about trying to exclude others from rewards; they're about helping everyone get them, because real community isn't about who has what gear (and who doesn't); real community is about who has the best stories, the best sense of humor, or the best attitude.  People who have good social skills advocate for equal rewards; they don't advocate that people be deliberately excluded just so a few can feel superior.

This is why MMOG communities currently suck; they attract socially inept people that come to such games to force others to have to accept them in their groups and guilds, because they are designed so that only the most socially inept and disconnected people can achieve the highest rewards.  The less time you spend in real life relationships... the bigger and badder you will be online.

Build a game dedicated to the casual gamer through equal solo rewards and offline character development, and I guarantee you'll see a much better, well-adjusted and thriving community - a real community, not just guilds of users stepping over everyone to get their next piece of gear. 

 

So basically you are saying hardcore engame raiders are a bunch of nolifers who spend too much time ingame and are socially inept and thus do not belong in the game.... Wheres the casual player who spends maybe a hour at most and is lucky enough to finish a raid, at least has a good time with his buddies and cares about the process of getting to the end and having fun, rather than the end reward in itself.

You may as well have said

Hardcore = retards

Casual = social peeps.

Though this is far from the truth, my best friend is helplessly addicted to hardcore raiding in WoW, yet in reality he is one of the dorkiest, yet silliest and witty outgoing social person you may ever meet. I think MMO communities suck when you have a bunch of 8 yearolds talking shit in the general all the time. This "Hardcore" Vs "Casual" thing is just stupid, and is a complete fabrication of what has been invented on the forums. It doesn't actually exist AT ALL. You have [Players[,,, and that is it. Find the part of the games community that is right for you. Or you can find a game that specializes in one type of person, and those communities are filled with like minded individuals creating a much more mature experience in some cases.

"I honestly prefer commuties with alot of variety", just not little brats.

Amen, and that seems to be the problem - the fanatics on both sides want everything the way they like it, no exceptions.  I like balanced games, something for everyone.

Every so often in comes a troll and starts groaning moaning and bitching about how he cant and should not be bothered to play a game pecause ...gasp...he has a real life...but nontheless since he paid for that game...he should have access to everything the game has to offer

well...it may come as a shock to you OP , but some people actually enjoy a chalange...and actually derive there fun from beeing in a competition with others..and eventually ending up on top. You know...gear wise..skill wise...lvl wise...I know it may sound strange to you but...starting low and ending up better then others is the core of all games since way back in ancient Greece Olimpics

Some poster compared MMO`s to footbal games...I`ll go with that...if you pay 15$ a month for access to some local footbal club...does it mean that automaticaly you are guaranteed to play in the nationals someday?

and if you`ll come back with the "but footbal is a real life activiti MMO`s are just pixels"....plese dont . It`s making you look more like a retard. So is chess "real" enough for you? maybe "online chess"? there you go...MMO`s have you go against real people (in some way or the other, either racing to the top or exterminating the enemy in EvE)...and strangely enough some people derive enjoyment from beeing better then others .That does NOT exclude socialization...I mean...most of the time I grind in MMO`s i`m drunk or stoned , on voicechat with people .

Hell...we kill eachother in horrible ways in eve inflicting losses that cost us months of grind then on saturday we can gladly go out for beer and laugh about it. But perhaps you are the social inept retard here...seriously you sound just like a 12yo

More to your point : It`s perfectly fine for someone that spends more time in game to have some advantages over someone that spends less . Personally I work 8/5 but that is in reality 9-10/5 (friggin overtime) , I spend at least 2 more with my girlfriend , and at least 6 hours/week drinking in some pub...and...gasp! I still manage to put at least 16-18 hours/week in my hobby

Why? because I enjoy it! I enjoy the competitive nature of it , I enjoy that I have to fight to achieve something...and i really enjoy when i achieve that goal. If I wouldt have to work for it it wouldnt be any fun achieving it wouldnt it now?

Thankfully MMO`s are NOT hi5/myspace mods yet! If all you want is to hang around with friends online.....go wank it in SL or something....or...just don`t ...after all only social misfits such as myself would consider working in order to achieve victory in what apears to be a non-existant competition for you . I mean we all know the only acceptable way to have fun after a day at work is chillin` with friends and beer and jokes now....on a serious note...my advice to you is : Do as I do....if you NEED to PvE ...get drunk before starting...i swear the grind becomes bearable+get on voice chat...or i don`t know...on the phone..get friends over...

It`s not like you need to be sober or focused to PvE

oh and i`ll complete tomorrow with mandatory flames

to other readers , please excuse this rant , insults are directed at OP only...and bezise ...I`m drunk and after 4 hours of PvE :))

Originally posted by Cephus404

Because you're the one insisting that it's inherently something else, but the evidence all says otherwise.  Apparently, since you *CAN* play solo on virtually every game on the market, since you *DON'T* need to team to beat any of the games, your assessment of what an MMO is... is wrong.

Try again.

Point out where, in this thread, I have made reference to what a MMO *is*.  I haven't, not in this thread.  I only asked the question.

You are simply averting attention away from the question I asked you, which was, again, since you still didn't get it:

Why are you asking for something from an MMO that already exists in other genres?

What is the difference?

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

Point out where, in this thread, I have made reference to what a MMO *is*.  I haven't, not in this thread.  I only asked the question.

Right here:

It seems that you are asking for simply a multiplayer game (a single player game that can sometimes be played with others online). You can have character progression at your own speed, no part of the game is going to drastically exceed your ability to invest time, and item acquisition is simply for playing the game itself.

There are hundreds if not thousands of these types of games. Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Diablo II, just to name some of the more popular ones.

So why are you posting in a MMOG web site forum?

You are simply averting attention away from the question I asked you, which was, again, since you still didn't get it:

Why are you asking for something from an MMO that already exists in other genres?

Hey, teaming has existed in FPS games far longer than MMOs have  been around.  Why are you asking for something from an MMO that already exists in other genres?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.  When you answer your own question, you'll know the answer to mine.

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Meleagar

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by neosapience

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Why should you get the same rewards I do? Finding a group isn't an issue for me, but I still have to coordinate with other people while you don't. We're spending equal time, but NOT EQUAL EFFORT. Why should you get the same rewards?

Answer that question and you have yourself a valid arguement. You cannot REASONABLY answer that question and still have a leg to stand on, so I'm going to consider this thread over.

 

I think people are missing the point here. It's not about equal reward it's about access. One of the biggest issues I had with WoW was not being able to get good gear, which then prevented me from (you guessed it) getting better gear.

 

It's also important to point out that some classes basically do the same thing in a group as they do in solo play. How would you suggest we reward such classes? Deny them access to good gear? Reward them just for being there?

 

To be honest, issues just like these are exactly why I quit retail and started playing on private servers. I had 100x more fun PvPing on private servers than I ever had on retail. But that's just me...

 

Edit - I don't know, maybe it's just people's retarded sense of values, but... It seems like people want to be rewarded with something unique because they felt they did something other people can't do (or aren't willing to do). In the real world, if you earn $100, you earned $100; the means are completely irrelevant (so long as they're legal). I dunno, I guess all the kiddies are still looking to earn that gold star...

 

This one part of the post I kinda had to laugh at, I dunno maybe you didn't pay WoW that long.

But this is my question, if you arn't going to do endgame raids/groups WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED THAT GEAR??

there is no reson in the world you would need that high end gear, unless you are doing high end raids.

You can go through 100% of wow, without the purple "rare" items....You can go to the AH and get sweet green and even blue armor..you can make it, but your complaining about this 1% of gear that you don't even NEED?!

It makes no sense dude!

So, you'd be totally okay if the only time you could wear that gear was when you were actually in a top end raid, and the rest of the time you had no access to it?
 

 

Let me spell it out more clearly.

The ONLY reson in World of Warcraft they have purple gear+ lvl 80 is that the player can run the dungons, its part of the multiplayer aspect of the game. (kinda like the areana)

What I am saying is: If you don't want to run the instances/dungons (which require other people) then why do you need the gear? Don't try for a second to tell me that you need it to reach lvl 80. Because thats a load of cr*p. The ONLY reson in World of Warcraft you NEED the high level gear is so you can do the high level raids.

------------------------------------------------------------------

What you are saying is that you want the high level gear without doing the raids. and then you say "well I paid for the game I should be able to access it" why do you want to access it if you arn't going to play that type of game?

Its like saying "blizzard, give me this gear. I have no reson to have it exept to have it.....but I want it."

 

I'll take that as a "no".  In other words, you want to be able to wear the gear outside of the areas where you **need** it.  I'll go further to state that if you could **only** wear raid gear at appropriate raids, and had no access to it otherwise, you'd be pitching a fit, because you want that gear to (1) strut around in common areas of the game, and (2) to be more powerful in the other areas of the game. 
 

There's nothing that says that there can't be sequences of solo instances that **require** the same gear advancements that raids require, so your argument is just an equivcation in any event; you just want raiders to have access to exclusive, superior gear and you don't want any other playstyle to have access to it, whether or not there is content coded where they will **need** such superior gear too.

Great post, Mele. I agree with everything you wrote except that I don't think loners (solo players) have any place in multiplayer games. Everything else is basically the same as I feel and I can understand why many players choose to go solo with the horrible communities in online games today. Unfortunately solo gameplay seems to be an after affect, and one that has become largely unavoidable.

Originally posted by elderotter

Amen, and that seems to be the problem - the fanatics on both sides want everything the way they like it, no exceptions.  I like balanced games, something for everyone.

Yes, don't we all. But there's only one minor problem.

When I balance the game, the soloers QQ forced grouping! When the soloers balance the game, it's ruins the challange of the group game for me, and I won't play it.

You have to remember, if YOU can solo, so can I. There is no way to allow YOU to solo, and stop me from doing it.

If I can do it, the group game is ruined for me because now the rules have changed and grouping is pointless.

Balance that.

Since alot of this argument seems to be stemming from gear/loot/rewards, perhaps they could make it so that the gear you get when you are grouped is only usable in a group. The gear you get when soloing is only available to you when you are not grouped. Then, they could have all the loners able to get the best gear all by themselves, but they won't be able to use it in a group.

Originally posted by Nifa

Originally posted by Meleagar

...I realized the sad truth about modern MMOGs; they're largely programmed and populated by social misfits and outcasts whose only hope of being accepted or admired by a group is if grouping is forced on everyone.  In other words, the casuals - those with lives outside the game - are forced to group up with the internet game junkies and addicts if they want to achieve the higher rewards...

So, if I understand you correctly, nearly all gamers and devs are social misfits and outcasts?  You and I do not even know each other; how can you make such an assessment about my character?  This strikes me as being more than a little arrogant on your part, but it is entirely possible that I have misunderstood you here.

Excellent point Nifa! Meleagar, you're over generalizing everything. Gamers are no longer the fat nerds who live in their parent's basement. Gaming is even picking up with women and old people nowadays. How dare you believe that everyone who is a gamer is socially inept. So far, the only one I see being ignorant is you.

This is why they have such an inapprorpiate, hostile reaction to such reasonable suggestions as equal rewards for equal solo effort, and offline advancement systems, ranting and raving if even one such game is considered; if such games are made, then casuals will flock to them and abandon the misfits, leaving them no one to feel superior to, and offering them no solace from their social ineptitude by being the targets of their ridicule and condescension (see: psychological transferrance).

"Equal" is an entirely relative - and subjective - term.  There is also no proof that "casuals" will flock to games which cater towards solo play - as one who plays predominantly solo (but who will and does group), I prefer that there be plenty of people around and make liberal use of the ./ignore command when I feel it is necessary.

True, that is why the ignore command exists. Meleagar, you're forgetting that gamers are a diverse bunch. You just played too many games that had violent communities, and they're far and few nowadays. I've seen games with excellent communities, and it included all gamers, the lights, the middle-cores, and the rogue-likes.

This is why current MMOG communities suck; they are built on the dynamic of rewarding those who are the least socially skilled the the most socially problematic in real life, those who believe that "community" is based solely on how your specific "build" can be used by the guild for everyone to get what they want. That's what these people believe "community"is about; what you can offer them as a function of end-game rewards.

Really?  MMO communities "suck?"  I have found wonderful communities in every MMO that I have played.  "Community" is built based upon mutual respect:  if someone repeatedly shows an utter lack of respect, that is what the ./ignore command exists for.

Once again, the community sucked because it happened to suck in the game. It doesn't apply to every mmorpg out there, you're once again overgeneralizing everything Meleagar.

They're clueless as to what real community is about, and why people - good, socially adept people - will group up and even raid for no other reason than to have a good tme together, whether or not it brigns them exclusive, superior rewards. They'll group up for in-game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons, and then all run naked to fight the biggest dragon around ... not because it's going to get them any gear ... but because it's fun.

For some people, raiding is fun.  For others, PvP is fun.  Each person has their own interests and ideas of fun.  Is there some particular reason that others' ideas of fun are offensive to you, or am I misunderstanding you again?

Yup, not only are you overgeneralizing, but now you're straight up rejecting others who's idea do not appeal to you. Many people have different ideas of fun. They may be strange to you Meleagar, but your ideas will be strange to them. Have you not considered that other people have opinions too?

You see, people who function well in a community aren't about trying to exclude others from rewards; they're about helping everyone get them, because real community isn't about who has what gear (and who doesn't); real community is about who has the best stories, the best sense of humor, or the best attitude.  People who have good social skills advocate for equal rewards; they don't advocate that people be deliberately excluded just so a few can feel superior.

I know plenty of PvPers and raiders with excellent social skills.  Perhaps your encounters with others have been less than pleasant, but that does not make your experience (or mine, for that matter) true of all gamers.

I can sort of relate to this idea Meleagar, and somewhat agree with you on this point.

This is why MMOG communities currently suck; they attract socially inept people that come to such games to force others to have to accept them in their groups and guilds, because they are designed so that only the most socially inept and disconnected people can achieve the highest rewards.  The less time you spend in real life relationships... the bigger and badder you will be online.

Build a game dedicated to the casual gamer through equal solo rewards and offline character development, and I guarantee you'll see a much better, well-adjusted and thriving community - a real community, not just guilds of users stepping over everyone to get their next piece of gear. 

You know, it's possible that your game based towards casual gamers and soloing might indeed spawn a violent community. Your idea might work, but then again, it might not work also.

Well, I thank you for calling me and thousands - if not millions - of others socially inept and unable to maintain a life outside of cyberspace.  Generally, attitudes such as the one you seem to have displayed here are why games and forums have ignore features. ;)

Meleagar, you should really take back what you said about calling all gamers socially inept. That really is hurtful and insulting. Many gamers have lives too you know. That is probably the reason why you're at war with so many people on this forum. Care to be nicer, and apologize?

Originally posted by Cephus404  

Hey, teaming has existed in FPS games far longer than MMOs have been around. Why are you asking for something from an MMO that already exists in other genres?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. When you answer your own question, you'll know the answer to mine
  

Wow... this is getting frustrating.  I don't actually know the answer to my question, which is why I'm asking it.

As for your counter question, I don't play MMOs -or- FPS games to team.  I play MMOs for the roleplaying, verisimilitude, and social interaction.  I play FPS games for the action and the PvP.

My reasons for playing an MMO are obviously not yours. So, for the third time:

What are your reasons for wanting to play an MMO?

Well, to be honest, I see it even worse than the OP.

The consequences of this dynamic are also inevitably the downfall of the MMO they are playing. The producer wants to cater to those that complain (usually those that spend most time on their MMO) and by that they exclude those with a real life outside of the MMO they are playing, but also mostly the larger part of their subscribers.

Therefore alienating those that don't have the time to raid for 6 hours every day to get to the end game content and eventually abandoning the game. This would leave only those that do (barely) nothing but play their game (the minority of players) and they lose subscribers.

See, one should have a game that can be played casually but offers some challenges for those that want to spend their life on playing a game. But it should not be so that they only cater to those that only game and have nothing else to do. That is simply absurd.

I read that WoW went down below 10 mil subscribers already, and I recon it has to do with this effect as well. These days one cannot even think of starting a new character without the sponsorship of a high level alt. Stuff just costs too much in game. This is also absurd and one of the main reasons gold sellers seem to stay active with a lot of success.

I have become a great fan of non trading games as a result that are also laid back. The grouping can go to hell as far as I'm concerned since these days it is so common that you group with players (even at high level) who have no clue what they are doing, don't want fun, but just that big "ultimate drop" they are looking for. Sad, really sad.

True, charging that dragon naked is fun. Getting whiped because someone didn't pay attention can be frustrating, but also fun. These days one cannot do that anymore in games since people are so overpsyched about having to have the best in the game that it isn't funny anymore. It takes a lot of fun out of MMOs. People mostly don't seem to be playing to have "fun" anymore, but to be competitive in an environment where they can, while for whatever reason they might not be able to in RL. In short, the frustrated ones get to frustrate the MMO community. And no one does anything about it.

MMO companies love these, because they are mostly the core of their playerbase. Unfortunately they completely can ruin the fun for others, helped by the producers and developers of said MMOs. Until MMOs become about "fun" again, this will just continue like this.

Originally posted by Meleagar

After reading several players comment about how no  one would group in a game unless they were forced by goals or mechanics to do so, I realized the sad truth about modern MMOGs; they're largely programmed and populated by social misfits and outcasts whose only hope of being accepted or admired by a group is if grouping is forced on everyone.  In other words, the casuals - those with lives outside the game - are forced to group up with the internet game junkies and addicts if they want to achieve the higher rewards; in fact, the casuals have to become like those junkies and addicts if they ever want to see top game content.

This is why they have such an inapprorpiate, hostile reaction to such reasonable suggestions as equal rewards for equal solo effort, and offline advancement systems, ranting and raving if even one such game is considered; if such games are made, then casuals will flock to them and abandon the misfits, leaving them no one to feel superior to, and offering them no solace from their social ineptitude by being the targets of their ridicule and condescension (see: psychological transferrance).

This is why current MMOG communities suck; they are built on the dynamic of rewarding those who are the least socially skilled the the most socially problematic in real life, those who believe that "community" is based solely on how your specific "build" can be used by the guild for everyone to get what they want. That's what these people believe "community"is about; what you can offer them as a function of end-game rewards.

They're clueless as to what real community is about, and why people - good, socially adept people - will group up and even raid for no other reason than to have a good tme together, whether or not it brigns them exclusive, superior rewards. They'll group up for in-game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons, and then all run naked to fight the biggest dragon around ... not because it's going to get them any gear ... but because it's fun.

You see, people who function well in a community aren't about trying to exclude others from rewards; they're about helping everyone get them, because real community isn't about who has what gear (and who doesn't); real community is about who has the best stories, the best sense of humor, or the best attitude.  People who have good social skills advocate for equal rewards; they don't advocate that people be deliberately excluded just so a few can feel superior.

This is why MMOG communities currently suck; they attract socially inept people that come to such games to force others to have to accept them in their groups and guilds, because they are designed so that only the most socially inept and disconnected people can achieve the highest rewards.  The less time you spend in real life relationships... the bigger and badder you will be online.

Build a game dedicated to the casual gamer through equal solo rewards and offline character development, and I guarantee you'll see a much better, well-adjusted and thriving community - a real community, not just guilds of users stepping over everyone to get their next piece of gear. 

Couldn't agree more.