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Originally posted by Spezz
LOL! Too bad Dana couldn't have come up with something to distract all those Darkfall debates a few months ago. |
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While I agree with parts of the article that suggest roleplaying in mmorpgs is impractical, I would amend that to read that it is impractical in themepark games (which are of course the majority nowadays, and likely all the author has experience with). I question whether someone with such a limited view of roleplayers and what makes them tick ever played games like UO, Asheron's Call, SWG, etc, as those games did indeed foster roleplaying and had large communities of dedicated roleplayers to boot (UO and SWG still do). Sure, the playstyle isn't for everyone (many people lack the imagination to do anything other than what the game tells them to do), but equating roleplayers to willing victims is quite possibly the most amateur bit of shock-jock journalism I've ever seen on this site, and that's saying something. I would've expected as much coming from some of the blog writers seemingly plucked off the street with no regard to writing ability or journalistic experience, but from a staff member? Wow. Pretty sad. /shrug |
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Originally posted by Jenuviel
Couldn't agree with this post more, especially the highlighted paragraph. In my past, I have played Ultima Online in a former top-end RP guild on Catskills (Pre and Post Trammel - Currently still playing as well) , an RP, PvP, and PvE server in DAoC(Percival, Mordred, Gaheris), and a few MUDs. In my more recent history, I originally started on a WoW PvP server at launch, but about 2 or so years ago (maybe less), I started playing on a RP server. As someone who played for about equal times and to equal extent on both server types (Up to level 70 on PvP, after BC was launched, and now 2 level 80's on the RP server) in this highly popular game, and given my past experience, I think I'm in a safe position to state the folowing (Using WoW as a reference point, because it has the large population numbers, but per capita, it holds true to me in the other games I've played): |
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Despite a few fallacies and ignorant statements, I have to say that Dana brings up afew good points. Too many people seem to expect that a RP server is going to be a magical land of total immersion, and it just is not the case. My first experience with a RP server was in EQ2. I had played on Crushbone and then decided to give the RP Server a try. I honestly could not tell the difference. People still used Global the same way and I didn't come across much public RP other than encountering a Dark Elf that wanted me to spank her. Needless to say I left that server behind real fast. Now I do play on Wiccanna currently in AoC, and Wiccana has picked up the label of the "Unofficial RP Server". I have found this to be a fantatsic place, not because of some kind of supposed RP Ruleset byut just because you can find a lot of people that are interested in RP. You can find many many guilds with varying degree of RP, as well as find RP happening in many different spots on any given night. Sure some character names are silly, but does it really matter? Just ignore it. And sure Global chart can get pretty stupid sometimes, but I leave it turned off 95% of the time because I do not want the distracting chatter no matter what is being talked about. I really do not understand why so many people get all emotional and complain about what is being talked about in Global Chat, yet continue to leave it on. It is the equivilent of pricking your finger on a riose bush, and then laying down on the bush. One thing I have noticed specifically in AoC is that whenever the topic of what kind of things that RPers want or see as a issue, there is a loud minority from the Official PvP-RP Server that always jumps on wanting Naming Policies to be enforced for there server. These players seem to want to be able to officially tattle on a name they do not want over adding more tools or content for Roleplayers, and I just do not understand that. I could spend hours say decorating a house if we had a housing system, but it takes me half a second to not click on a player with a silly name. It just does not bother me, but too many RPers get very snotty about it, and I think that leads to a lot of the misconceptions about the RPer population that the OP listed in his article.
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Sirrah and Decayed Rodent Beast whose name Massey, in olden times did mean the slop bucket of the foul fiend Flibbertigibbet, whose sordid blog post on RP servers is a boil, a plague sore, an embossed carbuncle in my corrupted blood; The one that did so generalize so, an open letter from I, one so beneficiant as to enlighten thee with words to educate and castigate, as it seems wicked fire of ignorance have melted yours in your own grease... ((I find it patently false, and demand you cease your qualling post haste! Your words are hollow, treacherous, and full of guile and thou art a craven tardy-gaited horn-beast! Now begon with thy sham of a blog, lest you maketh me a victim, and I shall be forced to unleash a 70th power level fire blast on yorn mewling full-gorged whey-face! I shall Destroy your sight with a new Gorgon, and promise that if you amend thy face, I'll amend my life. Now, no more bugger boo, for away, away to the unseelie places, that we may find respite once again among the donnybrooks and hedgerows of the fae forests of Unchartia, to face foes unseen and unheard of. I comment no more on this detestable blog let it That the music of my words were to enlard his fat already pride )) Lord Ravenscar Unterbrecht Wulfcastle Von Brau Magic Missle, Magic Missle |
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The writer obviously wouldn't know RP if it walked up and bit him in the arse. The point of RP servers is not to force some unenforceable ruleset on the entire population, it so that people who have a like interest in a particular aspect of the game have an easier time finding each other. That's all. MMORPG's cater to people with all sorts of different play styles and interests.....anything that makes it easier for people to find players with similar interests/tastes is a good thing (IMO). While it is true that there are a small minority of RP'ers that try to enforce their style on everyone around them.... the vast majority are simply interested in playing their own game without having folks purposefully come in and muck up the works.
Some people think that RP'ers come off as elitist because we mostly associate with other RP'ers and often try to avoid grouping/hanging with folks that aren't into RPing. That's not because we think we're better then anyone else...or that we think we have more right to the game then anyone else....it's simply because RP is an activity that works best when the folks you are with are playing along. Think of analogy with fishing and water-polo. Their both an activity that happens in the water. Fishing doesn't prevent some-one from playing water polo..... but fishing doesn't work if you've got some guy splashing around like a maniac right next to you. So the fisherman will generaly move a bit off from the water polo players and hang with other people who are fishing. That doesn't make the fisherman a snob or an elitist.....and it doesn't mean that he thinks he's better or has more right to the lake then the water polo guys.... it just means that he's doing an activity that only works well under certain conditions. So the water polo guy shouldn't get offended if the fisherman doesn't want to hang around and fish with him playing water polo. That's all.
Heck, I bet a hardcore Raiding group would get pretty PO'd if 2 of the players that were in their group wanted to stop and have a 15 minute conversation in the middle of the instance (whether that conversation was RP or blather about Michael Jackson)..... and everyone else was wanting to move on to the next encounter so they could finish the instance.
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Originally posted by Redtah
Wishful thinking. Maturity hits a wall when the storyline or expectations of characters are interrupted in ways that could happen naturally. This results in a disruption of guild civility. Also, in RP guilds--- there tends to be an easy sort of favoritism. When people become too nice or "mature" as you put it... most individuals don't know how to handle disruptions.
Mature on the surface... but not often mature emotionally. RPers can be real big emotional wrecks. Why else would they love to live an escape from reality? I wouldn't be surprised if most people upset with Dana's post are these people. =P |
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Hey all!! |
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There is a game that totally fosters role playing. In fact, you log onto the game and you are made to role play - it's the point of the game! It's called The Endless Forest and it's by tale-of-tales.com. You go through the game role playing a deer, you meet other deer, you can cast magic on them that you can earn by visiting special places in the forest that turn their coats another color or pattern or affects their horns or even transmogrifies them into another animal and best of all there is no pesky chat to ruin your role playing experience! What more could any role player ask for? |
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OPS post boils down too; Some people want to feel immersed in the game they are paying to play. Other people want to irritate them. Op theorizes they don't really want to feel immersed, but they actually enjoy being irritated. Hence, Op is a failure at guessing the reason. Op failed to understand the Occams Razor reason, is some people simply want a little more immersion and a little less irritation. That involves being around other people who are there for a little more immersion and not being around people with character names "Turdpumper99" who are there to be l33t.
If you want to play it like a "game" and name your character "Bloodelfpally" and simply grind and level up, all well and good, more power to you. Me, I'll try to wring a little more fun out of it by feeling like I am part of the world I am exploring and not an anachronism to it. My only hope, is that OP stops writing blog posts on things he doesn't really understand.
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This isn't an article, it's a thinly veiled verbal assault against a certian playstyle. Articles are not supposed to take sides or state the writer's opinions as if they were truth. I mean seriously Dana, you don't even TRY to disguise it as an article, the freakin' NAME is 'The Myth of Role-Playing Servers'. The title of the rant is basically trying to quote itself for truth. Even when you admit that there may be an exception to the rule, you immediatley discredit yourself afterwards on purpose in order to try to prove your point on several occasions. Exaggerated Example: "I realise that there may be decent rp'ers out there but they are so few and far-between that they're hardly worth mentioning." That kind of writing is bullshit. It doesn't matter if the article is The Myth of Role-Playing Servers or the The Joy of Role-Playing servers if all you do is ramble on about your personal opinion and use writing trick to sound subjective and informed when you're really not. I'm sure if the article was "Are Role-Playing Servers a Myth?" and allowed both sides of the issue equal time and consideration, and maybe if you did a little bit of research into the subject instead of relying on your own speculation it would have been much better. In short, MMORPG.com should not be treated like a refrigerator door for the journalists to stick any half-assed thought on for all the world to see. This kind of journalism reflects badly on you, and in turn the website your writing represents.
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Originally posted by argos5
Everyone who plays these types of games is looking for an escape from reality for a certain period of time. What's more, is that everyone who plays these games is a roleplayer to some degree. You can't truly want to play a game if you can't accept the importance of any game constructs. If it is all just make-believe and silliness, you won't play it. There is nothing more pathetic than an out-of-character player harping on the dedicated roleplayer while boasting of his stats and gear in a virtual fantastic environment. |
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Originally posted by FTLNewsFeed
...to not be a deer? |
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Originally posted by DarkRexx
...to not be a deer?
...to have other things more important to do than to be a virtual deer? |
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That was a great post, Red_Smoke. :) I am not going to comment so much on the article, but I just want to say that I play on RP servers because the people seem a tad more respectful, courteous, and polite and the naming conventions are a bit better. My own rule is to *never* say or do anything OOC in chat unless another player does so first (and thus "breaks the ice"). I never go OOC in General, Speaking, or Trade chat -- anywhere that other players might randomly read it. I will use abbreviations in the LFG channel, however, where they can hardly be avoided. It's just about respecting others and *assuming* all players are RP unless they say otherwise. Personally, I would love to see a STRICT WoW RP server that forced players (1) to choose avatar names from a Name Generator, (2) had no chat channels at all, and (3) allowed only the use of preset emotes for between-player communication. I often wish WoW had even just ONE server set up that way. I bet many WoW players would like something like that. I know I sure would. |
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One thing that I find interesting after giving another read is that the OP seems to be expressing the opinion that since RP Servers are a "myth" that they should not exist. The OP also seems to be saying that players that do not wish to abide by the rules of a RP Server should not be forced to. Now if a player makes a character on a PvP server and then complains that another player killed them, the response will typically be something along the lines of "QQ:" And really, if you choose to play on a PvP Server then you really have no excuse to be upset if another player kills you. You chose to go there. It is the reason why I avoid Darkfall. So why is it ok for a player to go to a RP Server, not follow the rules that were apprent and in place when they created the character, and be seen as being "oppressed: and a anti hero? I am not talking about player ideas of rules, I am talkking about the rules that are officially designed for the server. I also am referring to offically designated RP servers, not unofficial ones. Do players PvP all the time on a PvP server? Is it total anarchy and 24/7 battles and carnaage? Somehow I doubt that it is. So why is a players that disagrees with a PvP server a whiner but a player that disagrees with a RP Server being oppressed? Why are those that do not like a RP Server and go there to cause trouble being seen as the equivilent of Neo breaking free of the Matrix? |
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Originally posted by DarkRexx I'm not speaking about the content of the article on way or another, but I WOULD like to point out that this was an OPINION piece. Disagree with the opinion, sure, but you're dressing it down because it IS an opinion.... which is the point of each of the five featured columns every week. Cheers, |
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Originally posted by Dana
Dana, one does not "incite" debates. One stimulates them by posing an intelligent, defensible position or question about which there might be two reasonable but different views. Your article failed completely in this regard and it is difficult to understand how you could have expected anything beyond a riot. What you did is called trolling, not journalism. I have been visiting this site for many years and this article is different in character from anything I have yet seen. I certainly hope it does not represent a new trend or policy. |
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Originally posted by themilton
Thank you, Dana! Immersion talk always annoys me. I can suspend disbelief as well as the next guy, but unless I'm on stage or doing something with friends IRL (including tabletop), the keyboard and monitor keep me separated from my characters and their worlds. The keyboard and monitor are no more or less a conduit for the imagination than the pencil, paper and dice. I don't see how manipulating your character via keyboard and monitor "separates" one more so than manipulating data on a sheet with a pencil. You talk to people across the table, with the prevalence of free voice chat software you could do the same. Both instances of verbal communication would likely be with people you know (I know I don't randomly give out Ventrilo server info). But, if that's your barrier, it's a shame. If anything, being able to have a visual representation of the world and its contents adds to any talk of immersion. *shrug* Asheron's Call. The one open world, classless progression, live team content oriented game that ALL game sites and developers show little respect for as a template to pattern future MMOs after.
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Originally posted by angus858
Dana: "The goal of this is to incite debates" Translates as "The goal of this was to troll for controversy"
Upcomping Dana Massey articles include;
Why playing MMOs will never get you a girlfriend
You stink, its just how it is.
I play MMOs for fun, but you play them because you are a socially inept mental pymy whose mother dresses you funny, because you play them differently than I do.
The Myth of the PVP server, people don't really want to go on there to fight each other. They go on there to be trolled by people who make fun of them for enjoying that kind of server. Case in point, you all responded to my article saying I am an idiot, so you must love it when I make fun of you.
Sadly, your post gets featured like a real article and isn't moved to "Trolling for replies" section. (Translate as: Deleted)
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Originally posted by Stradden I'm not speaking about the content of the article on way or another, but I WOULD like to point out that this was an OPINION piece. Disagree with the opinion, sure, but you're dressing it down because it IS an opinion.... which is the point of each of the five featured columns every week. You need to make it very clear that this is an opinion piece. Perhaps HUGE text at the beginning giving that disclaimer. Though even that is not going to be enough. As managing editor, it is your job to moderate/edit what your columnists post. As an editor, you don't just spell-check for them. You are supposed to have a handle on your readers and what is acceptable in the community. If one of your columnists submitted an article claiming that all Jews or Blacks or Whites can't play MMOs, that they are too stupid to handle MMOs, it would be his opinion, and as it would be about MMOs, it might even 'fit' the site. But it would be your job to stop such drivel from making it to 'print'. Not every opinion is acceptable to print. You failed in your responsibilities with this article. This was trolling, somewhat disguised by being spelling/grammar checked. You should not have allowed this to pass. I don't care if Dana Massey was God-King for this site in the past, EVERYONE needs an editor to tell them when they shouldn't post something - even past editors.
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Here's my 2 coppers, for what it's worth, from someone who is both an MMO player for many years, and a tabletop rpg player for a lot longer. I hope Dana actually reads this post and it doesn't get lost in the sea of backlash. I agree overall that no single game or RP server caters to a pure immersion factor of the game. But let's get serious: Even in tabletop role playing and Live Action role playing, there's the story and game with the characters, and then the OOC and chill out and have fun factor. People who truly "immerse" are, let's be honest, the things that give Vampire LARP'ers a bad name and result in movies like Mazes and Monsters. There's a difference between full immersion and just pretending and having fun. As many have pointed out already, it's not just about typing in character, sometimes it's about taking advantage of the environment and making an extra layer to the game that involves more creativity and community involvement than raiding parties, grind and gear min/maxing. This isn't just for carebears to sit around and cyber one another and get to be the victims of trolls; this is about adding depth with the toys we have. The Tools We Have Here's a weird way of looking at it: Tabletop role playing's most popular game is Dungeons & Dragons. This game was an evolution from Chainmail, a miniature war game. A lot D&D's rules, especially the current edition, have combat based more on tactical, almost Wargame like setup than just narrative approach. Hell, the fourth edition right now is even under some criticism for its rather heavy use of minis for combat. So what seperates it from the Miniature Ware Games to being a true Role Playing Game? Two things: The Ideology, and the Players. The Ideology behind role playing is that the sum of the rules, dice mechanics and abstract systems were designed with the premise that these are tools and building blocks for interactive storytelling; whereas in War games these are truly rules that must be followed for fair competition. Sure, players could role up characters and just fight monsters, gain loot and crawl dungeons without ever having to act out. Some do. But that's the second thing that seperates RPG's from the Mini Battle players: The Ideology. Combat is usually just a means to an end, not the main focus. There's politics, mystery, drama....it's the thrill of playing out a story. Adding an extra layer to the Virtual Worlds You said it yourself: MMORPGs are called thus because they have roots in the tabletop game play. You think Everquest and Ultima Online, and the older precursors such as The Realm and Meridian 59 took off because people wanted to grind to end game and be l33t sk33t on the scrotum pole? No, we played those because they were a brave new dimension of the genre of games we love. Somehow, along the way, MMO's evolved more into leveling treadmills and subscription based grinds for pretty pixels and bragging rights. The reason a few of us MMO players want RP servers and form RP guilds is because we want to play the game in a way different from leveling treadmills and flavor of the week builds. It's not so much about campy dialogue as it is about community involvement. And don't pin this ideology to just PvE carebears, but plenty of PvP'ers too. My favorite times in PvP guilds in the past have actually been related to Roleplaying themed guilds. No, we weren't in character the whole time. What we were doing was playing with a structured society of roles, titles and jobs, a united goal and when it came down to both inner-guild business, Diplomacy with other guilds or taking arms en masse, we did so in the style and theme of our guild's "persona". We did this in EQ's hayday on Rallos Zek, we did this in Shadowbane, and I know many others who continue to do this in any game they play. Usually on RP servers, you're more likely to see community driven events than you are on the standard servers. Certain games, like City of Heroes and LOTRO, which offer a lot of RP and social opportunities in game, thrive on the community and arguably are some of the most pleasant in-game experiences I've had when I wasn't doing quests or raiding. In Shadowbane (may it RIP), we always played on the Lore based servers because the community felt more tight knit, and lord knows the politics and drama play there were epic (Whether guilds were "role playing" or not. And for many, that was fun.) And one last thing: However, the tone you wrote it in, came off more like an industry cop out for lack of innovation to provide an environment capable of delivering and encouraging player character social interaction past trade and PK'ing. Some titles out there have worked on this, and thus have developed a strong RP community and player base from it. Hell, I know many EVE players who are excited about the possible space station expansion in the hopefully near future, because it's going to open up some RP possibilities.
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I'm just getting sick of roleplayers being constantly $#!T'd on all the time! |
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kasta
 Advanced Member
Joined: 5/30/03
Never try to teach a pig to sing,it wastes your time and annoys the pig. |
Originally posted by Dana My only question is how come I can report you but I can't block you? |
Originally posted by Khalathwyr The keyboard and monitor are no more or less a conduit for the imagination than the pencil, paper and dice. I don't see how manipulating your character via keyboard and monitor "separates" one more so than manipulating data on a sheet with a pencil. You talk to people across the table, with the prevalence of free voice chat software you could do the same. Both instances of verbal communication would likely be with people you know (I know I don't randomly give out Ventrilo server info). But, if that's your barrier, it's a shame. If anything, being able to have a visual representation of the world and its contents adds to any talk of immersion. *shrug*
I have to go with what what Khalathwyr says. Themilton [and I suppose that really means Dana as you were just supporting his postion]: though I can appreciate that you have a preferred method that incites your imagniation, ie being with friends around a table top, I fail to see why you find it so beyond the pale that one can sit in front of a screen and still be able to make a similar leap of the imagination. I mean, really... around a table top, with pencils, screens, your friend's mugs gleaming in the pale light while scarfing down potatoe chips or pizza or whatever is the food of choice, constantly refilling your soda or beer or drink of the night. Why is that any more imagination inducing then sittng at a screen, lights dimmed in a similar fashion with the images acting as a backdrop to what is going on? The only reason it is is because that's how you work. I think that's fine. But if someoone can lose themselves in a video game because their imagination allows them to break that barrier then I say good for them. There is no one book on how one can use their imagination to the fullest extent. And if there is then please point me to it because it's very possible that I'm missing out. I know that my days of pen and paper D&D play were a lot of fun and I suppose the images that I conjured up in my head were all the more powerful because they were mine, but I can't say I felt any more immersed than a video game. If anything, I've found that game images (for me) can be more powerful in that I allow myself to be engrossed not in creating the scene but losing myself in the moment. it's one of the reasons (and yes... I admit this) that playing games like doom III or Left4Dead or the demo of F.E.A.R actually sort of freak me out. When in that F.E.A.R. demo I looked down a dark stair into the dim light and saw that little girl scurry from one side of the room into the shadows on the other side, I just turned it off. To catagorically say that one person can't achieve a level of release as powerful as another's because one can't comprehend how they can just doesn't work for me. I mean, we are not wired the same. So if someone tells me that they can achieve great immersion by blasting led zeppelin, wearing their mother's bathrobe and sitting on a chair of nails then I have no choice but to believe them until such time as they are taken away by the state. |
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