Originally posted by Meleagar

This is why they have such an inapprorpiate, hostile reaction to such reasonable suggestions as equal rewards for equal solo effort,

This, this right here shows the root problem of the rabid soloist. You are basically trying to claim that a soloist deserves equal rewards compared to an entire group of players over the same time period and yet fail to see what is wrong with that idea and why it utterly kills group play.

At bare minimum, a six player group for example "deserves" SIX TIMES the reward of a soloist for the same time spent working together - arguably they deserve more because of the logisitical, coordination and cooperative difficulties of grouping.

That is the fundamental problem right there, people like the OP are basically frustrated power gamers. They *must* get all the same toys and get all the same rewards as people who have more time to play than they do. They are incapable of simply sitting back and enjoying the game (or deciding that it is not for them, due to excessive time requirements). They are compelled to sit back and whine about how they "deserve" access to all the same content, all the while hurling insults and generalizations at anyone who accomplishes more than they do.

Should games have solo content? Heck yeah, but not all of it should be soloable and the best rewards should be very very diffcult or time consuming for a soloist to get. (And yes, I say that knowing that I will not get to much of that content in many games, precisely because I am not that hardcore and like to solo...but if playing the game is fun, I don't feel obligated to compete with the neighbors constantly to see who is the "best")

Thread should title read - Waaahhhh, -I- have no life, everything is hard and should be easy and handed to me, wahhhhhhh.

The irony here is that you claim these people have no lives, then write this whole complaint essay on why they have no lives.

Not all MMO's are created equal. - Quote me on that.

Some are hardcore, some are not. Some require grouping, some do not. Some hand you everything for very little work, some do not.

What you want is a game where you can do absolutely everything by yourself and then be able to reap massive rewards for little effort. What you're describing are single-player games, which already exist. If I want to feel like a demi-god snowflake goku-esque little angry "AAHHHHH!" to power up hero then I'll play a single player game.

The point of MMO's was that you weren't a snowflake demi-god, just an adventurer striking out in the world. Think back to D&D which even if, like me, you've never played you still understand the concept. When you make a character you're just an adventurer who happens to experience a grand story. The results of that story may make you somewhat of a legend, but you didn't start off as some destined snow-flake demi-god Ichigo mystery screaming power-up- guy, just a guy. That doesn't mean you're not a 'hero', you're just the hero of -your- story.

People seem to not understand this concept which the mmo industry was founded on. Just because you're no Luke Skywalker doesn't mean you can't experience an epic story of your own - key words: OF YOUR OWN. When a game is made and you start off as some destined hero or some bs it stops being a story of your doing and becomes you living out someone else's doings. Maybe I don't want to be a -DESTINED- hero? Maybe I just want to be a bright-eyed adventurer who meets some friends along the way. If we happen to get the ambition to do something great, awesome, good for us. I don't need someone else's story to pat my head and tell me I'm special, because if every other adventurer you see is a prophecized special snowflake, then none of us are.

Let me put it this way: If we're all Luke Skywalker, then who gets credit for blowing up the death star?

If one person can just solo everything then what was the point to making an MMO in the first place? What makes it worthwhile to pay any sort monthly fee? How are you going to make PvP work? All PvP's are just 1v1's? Well that'd be about as fun as watching paint dry. What sort of guild system would you have? Would you even bother to put a guild system in? Well you can't have any group content in the game because if you did you'd have to provide worthwhile rewards and the solo people would bitch.

Why not just let everybody be able to own a castle and a town? Everyone is a king/queen, yay! Oh wait....

Newsflash: You can't solo life.

One last blurb: Let's say you have two hours to play a game and I have two hours to play the same game. I happen to actually have friends that I play with, you apparantly don't. I can find a group within five minutes and go do something, -maybe- you can't find some people you don't know to group with.

So in that two hours let's say a group or a solo person can clear a really big top-end instance unless they suck terribly.

So we have equal time, but my time requires coordinating with other people while I play, yours doesn't because you're antisocial or whatever. So what you're saying is that if we spend equal time, you should get the same rewards, right?

Well, we're both spending two hours in game. Why should you get the same rewards when my time investment is more difficult? What you REALLY want is to punish people who actually have friends. Time in game has nothing to do with it.

Two ridiculous notions in these forums have been beaten to death-- the subject of this thread and the idea of offline advancement. Therefore, I shall introduce a new ridiculous notion.

Why do we have to log into the game all the time? Why can't I play my solo MMO (while not actually playing, of course) when my internet is down for whatever reason? I think companies like Blizzard and SOE take advantage of people with always-up internet connections and totally piss on us who sometimes experience downtime due to line maintenence or weather issues. This is totally unacceptable! I pay the same subscription rates as everyone else! 

In fact, why do I have to have a computer? I should be able to play this game on my microwave. Not only is it unfair, but it's RASCIST!!!!! 

I got the impression that the communities are the way they are is because people are too concered with trying to achieve something or only see what the game has to offer them and because this they don't bother to socialize or play just to have fun like they(communities) used to be.

Originally posted by Meleagar

They're clueless as to what real community is about, and why people - good, socially adept people - will group up and even raid for no other reason than to have a good tme together, whether or not it brigns them exclusive, superior rewards. They'll group up for in-game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons, and then all run naked to fight the biggest dragon around ... not because it's going to get them any gear ... but because it's fun.

Who are you to tell me what I think is fun?  Maybe grouping for in game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons is fun to you, but to me it's a waste of time.  I don't think running naked to fight "the biggest dragon around" is fun either.  But we can argue all day and night about what is fun to you and what is fun to me.

You see, people who function well in a community aren't about trying to exclude others from rewards; they're about helping everyone get them, because real community isn't about who has what gear (and who doesn't); real community is about who has the best stories, the best sense of humor, or the best attitude.  People who have good social skills advocate for equal rewards; they don't advocate that people be deliberately excluded just so a few can feel superior.

I find that to be extremely funny.

This is why MMOG communities currently suck; they attract socially inept people that come to such games to force others to have to accept them in their groups and guilds, because they are designed so that only the most socially inept and disconnected people can achieve the highest rewards.  The less time you spend in real life relationships... the bigger and badder you will be online.

All-in-all I agree with you, but I don't like some of the points you made.  You turned your definition of fun into what everyone's definition of fun should be.  You also stated that good social skills = advocating for equal rewards.  Those two things do not go hand-in-hand with each other.  Hell...Hitler had good social skills but he sure as hell didn't advocate for equal rewards.  Other than those two things I feel you are spot on.  The MMO community isn't what it used to be.  When all the middle school and high school "cool kids" started playing the whole community went to hell in a hand basket.  Here's hoping for maturity to kick in.

 

-Thafireball

"This, this right here shows the root problem of the rabid soloist. You are basically trying to claim that a soloist deserves equal rewards compared to an entire group of players over the same time period and yet fail to see what is wrong with that idea and why it utterly kills group play."

More of  the typical obfuscation and deceit that these people must use to justify their needs for superiority. No soloist advocate that I've ever read - including me - has **ever** advocated for "same rewards in the same time period"; we have all advocated that groups and powergamers get the rewards well before soloers and casuals get the same rewards. What we argue is ONLY that all rewards be EVENTUALLY accessible to the soloer and the casual player.

Originally posted by Meleagar

"This, this right here shows the root problem of the rabid soloist. You are basically trying to claim that a soloist deserves equal rewards compared to an entire group of players over the same time period and yet fail to see what is wrong with that idea and why it utterly kills group play."

More of  the typical obfuscation and deceit that these people must use to justify their needs for superiority. No soloist advocate that I've ever read - including me - has **ever** advocated for "same rewards in the same time period"; we have all advocated that groups and powergamers get the rewards well before soloers and casuals get the same rewards. What we argue is ONLY that all rewards be EVENTUALLY accessible to the soloer and the casual player.

Yet that is exactly what your post said, so you didn't mean it? Or just have serious problems with the english language?

I quoted you exactly, nothing out of context. "equal rewards for equal solo effort" What part of what you wrote there is unclear or somehow doesn't mean that? You come back to it time and again in your post, even spotlighting it in your conclusion. You believe that the casual soloist is entitled to exactly the same rewards as someone who is able to invest more time in the game. Despite your claims about playing to just have fun, you are the one who can't get past the numbers and pixellated rewards of that leet gear you so bemoan.

Originally posted by ericbelser

Originally posted by Meleagar

"This, this right here shows the root problem of the rabid soloist. You are basically trying to claim that a soloist deserves equal rewards compared to an entire group of players over the same time period and yet fail to see what is wrong with that idea and why it utterly kills group play."

More of  the typical obfuscation and deceit that these people must use to justify their needs for superiority. No soloist advocate that I've ever read - including me - has **ever** advocated for "same rewards in the same time period"; we have all advocated that groups and powergamers get the rewards well before soloers and casuals get the same rewards. What we argue is ONLY that all rewards be EVENTUALLY accessible to the soloer and the casual player.

 

Yet that is exactly what your post said, so you didn't mean it? Or just have serious problems with the english language?

I quoted you exactly, nothing out of context. "equal rewards for equal solo effort" What part of what you wrote there is unclear or somehow doesn't mean that? You come back to it time and again in your post, even spotlighting it in your conclusion. You believe that the casual soloist is entitled to exactly the same rewards as someone who is able to invest more time in the game. Despite your claims about playing to just have fun, you are the one who can't get past the numbers and pixellated rewards of that leet gear you so bemoan.

I have some characters for you! ^, _ ^,  happy clown!

Maybe he's from the same committe that changed the meaning of for to from. Or he means equal in the Animal Farm sense.

He goes and changes his stance when people destroy his position, not anything new. At first he goes to say that equal effort (time, skill) should reap equal rewards because he doesn't have as much time as "power gamers" or whatever.

Well first off, most of these "casual gamers" that I see run around spend more time in game than I do, but progress their characters slower because they lack focus. They run around and just chat or do nothing while logged in.

So is time not an issue for you then? Or is it that you don't have any friends that play games you do? Cause if you just want to "eventually" get the same rewards as people who have friends, then that implies time is not an issue for you. I'm not taking any thing out of context here. I really do want an answer to the question I posed before:

Scenario: I have two hours to play, so do you. I have friends so finding a group isn't an issue for me. I don't know what your deal is, but apparantly you either don't have any friends or won't make any or whatever. A top-end, big instance can be done by a soloer or group in two hours.

Why should you get the same rewards I do? Finding a group isn't an issue for me, but I still have to coordinate with other people while you don't. We're spending equal time, but NOT EQUAL EFFORT. Why should you get the same rewards?

Answer that question and you have yourself a valid arguement. You cannot REASONABLY answer that question and still have a leg to stand on, so I'm going to consider this thread over.

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Why should you get the same rewards I do? Finding a group isn't an issue for me, but I still have to coordinate with other people while you don't. We're spending equal time, but NOT EQUAL EFFORT. Why should you get the same rewards?

Answer that question and you have yourself a valid arguement. You cannot REASONABLY answer that question and still have a leg to stand on, so I'm going to consider this thread over.

I think people are missing the point here. It's not about equal reward it's about access. One of the biggest issues I had with WoW was not being able to get good gear, which then prevented me from (you guessed it) getting better gear.

It's also important to point out that some classes basically do the same thing in a group as they do in solo play. How would you suggest we reward such classes? Deny them access to good gear? Reward them just for being there?

To be honest, issues just like these are exactly why I quit retail and started playing on private servers. I had 100x more fun PvPing on private servers than I ever had on retail. But that's just me...

Edit - I don't know, maybe it's just people's retarded sense of values, but... It seems like people want to be rewarded with something unique because they felt they did something other people can't do (or aren't willing to do). In the real world, if you earn $100, you earned $100; the means are completely irrelevant (so long as they're legal). I dunno, I guess all the kiddies are still looking to earn that gold star...

Originally posted by neosapience

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Why should you get the same rewards I do? Finding a group isn't an issue for me, but I still have to coordinate with other people while you don't. We're spending equal time, but NOT EQUAL EFFORT. Why should you get the same rewards?

Answer that question and you have yourself a valid arguement. You cannot REASONABLY answer that question and still have a leg to stand on, so I'm going to consider this thread over.

 

I think people are missing the point here. It's not about equal reward it's about access. One of the biggest issues I had with WoW was not being able to get good gear, which then prevented me from (you guessed it) getting better gear.

 

It's also important to point out that some classes basically do the same thing in a group as they do in solo play. How would you suggest we reward such classes? Deny them access to good gear? Reward them just for being there?

 

To be honest, issues just like these are exactly why I quit retail and started playing on private servers. I had 100x more fun PvPing on private servers than I ever had on retail. But that's just me...

 

Edit - I don't know, maybe it's just people's retarded sense of values, but... It seems like people want to be rewarded with something unique because they felt they did something other people can't do (or aren't willing to do). In the real world, if you earn $100, you earned $100; the means are completely irrelevant (so long as they're legal). I dunno, I guess all the kiddies are still looking to earn that gold star...

Your reasoning here is completely flawed. What do you mean by "couldn't get better gear"? Was there some magical little gnome-orc sitting there straight-arming you saying, "No gear for you!" like the soup nazi? Seriously I don't get people like you.

I don't get what you mean by 'access'. You want to be able to solo everything and get everything, that I get. What I don't get is why you want to come to a genre that says, MASSIVELY MULTI-PLAYER before anything else. There are PLENTY of single-player RPG games out there, go play them. I have friends I play with, we play MMO's because they offer the ability for us to do stuff together that offers us a challenge as a group. Do you soloers just not have any friends? I'm not asking to be mean, it's a completely legitimate question.

I play MMO's to have fun with friends and socialize with people I wouldn't otherwise meet. I've talked with people from Japan, Scotland, Israel, China, Russia....list goes on really and become what more or less could be defined as friends with them. I've even met my Scottish friend irl when he's come to the states on vacation a few times. I would never have been able to meet and talk with all these different people any other way. I've made friends through games and later found that they live within ten minutes of me, adding to my RL circle of friends.

So I play MMO's for - PvP, other group content, socializing with people I would otherwise have NEVER met and exploring. What do you solo people play for? I'm not saying you have to make friends the way I have, but if you aren't even making in-game connections then what are you doing? Why would you even bother having group content if you could just solo everything and get the same rewards.

And stop with the 'we aren't asking for equal rewards' bs, because you are. If you got lesser rewards then people with better gear would still be chosen over you, thereby "blocking" you from getting better gear. Or nobody would bother grouping because there wouldn't be any point when you can just solo through everything. There is a MASSIVE difference in view point here though.

My viewpoint: I have friends, we play these games because they -OFFER- group content that is fun for us.

Soloer viewpoint: I don't have friends and don't want the MAN -FORCING- me to find some to group with.

That's how I honestly see the two camps, by and large. I don't see it as "forced" group content. I see it as, "content my buddies and I can enjoy together".

I've mentioned before that I'm a 99% soloist in MMOs, but I'm completely with the groupers here. These whole point of these games are people playing together. That's what multiplayer is all about. That's why even in RTS games, you have co-operative mode along with vs. mode. Multiplayer is multiplayer. Solo play is something players took it upon themselves to add to the genre. Not everyone is antisocial. Some solo because they just don't feel like grouping at the moment. Some like the challenge of attempting something by themselves. Whatever the case, soloists are now a big part of MMOs. I get that. I play that 99% of the time.

However, I don't count myself an equal with groupers. I may play my class just as well as a grouper, or even better, but I understand that some parts of the game are only accessible via grouping. I choose to play against the intent of the genre, and accept that there are limitations by going that route. Yes, it's a game, but there's no reason why some real life rules shouldn't apply. Single drivers in cars can't enjoy the benefit of a lane designated for multiple occupants; the average Joe can't get access to exclusive clubs; and a lone warrior/hunter/druid/rogue/caster can't waltz into Ulduar and pwn Yogg'sarroth. Incidentally, WoW (just as an example, since it is the biggest MMO of them all) allows soloists the chance at epic gear. Faction rewards, for example. I've seen people in some pretty hefty purples that didn't come out of Kara or Ulduar, or other places like that. Yeah, it takes work, but it's no different than the work you'd have to go through raiding, and the best part is you did it all by yourself. Sure, it's not the easy mode "I WIN!" button you guys seem to want, but there you go.

Otherwise, pick a different genre. "But I pay the same $15 per month as the raiders!" So? You're not going to like this, but your $15 per month means dick. Same as my $15 per month. Means nothing. It means I have the paid privelidge to log into an active account and control a toon in the game world. Free markets are a beautiful thing. It means that if you don't feel like your needs are being met as a patron of a service, you can choose to take your money elsewhere. Sure, you could complain, but unless the problem is large enough that the company feels it's in their best fiscal interest to address it, you're in a minority.

Now to be fair, if a new game were to be developed that advertised equal content to all styles of play, I wouldn't have a single negative thing to say about that aspect, because that's how the game was being marketed. I probably wouldn't play it, but that's my own choice. 

Originally posted by Meleagar

"This, this right here shows the root problem of the rabid soloist. You are basically trying to claim that a soloist deserves equal rewards compared to an entire group of players over the same time period and yet fail to see what is wrong with that idea and why it utterly kills group play."

More of  the typical obfuscation and deceit that these people must use to justify their needs for superiority. No soloist advocate that I've ever read - including me - has **ever** advocated for "same rewards in the same time period"; we have all advocated that groups and powergamers get the rewards well before soloers and casuals get the same rewards. What we argue is ONLY that all rewards be EVENTUALLY accessible to the soloer and the casual player.

That works for me, but there are two problems.

1. What's the rate of progress for groupers and soloers we can agree on? What's teh sweet spot where I, as a grouper, will think i'm being rewarded for my efforts of taking time to group and work as a team, while you the solo player will not get bored and quit because it takes so much longer to make any progress?

2. End game. During leveling, it's not hard to set this up. I can kill Red or purple mobs in a group, and they will give me great xp and loot for my level or skill level. The solo player will be killing green mobs, and not getting so much xp or loot for his level. The solo player can go back later after he levels and kill the same Red or Purple mobs I'm killing now, but then they will be green to him, and he'll still not be getting such great loot or xp.

But what about when you're max level? If you can do the same Dungeons solo that I can do in a group, what's the point in grouping?

And how do we let you access that content later, if you're not going to get any more powerful?

Originally posted by neosapience

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Why should you get the same rewards I do? Finding a group isn't an issue for me, but I still have to coordinate with other people while you don't. We're spending equal time, but NOT EQUAL EFFORT. Why should you get the same rewards?

Answer that question and you have yourself a valid arguement. You cannot REASONABLY answer that question and still have a leg to stand on, so I'm going to consider this thread over.

 

I think people are missing the point here. It's not about equal reward it's about access. One of the biggest issues I had with WoW was not being able to get good gear, which then prevented me from (you guessed it) getting better gear.

 

It's also important to point out that some classes basically do the same thing in a group as they do in solo play. How would you suggest we reward such classes? Deny them access to good gear? Reward them just for being there?

 

To be honest, issues just like these are exactly why I quit retail and started playing on private servers. I had 100x more fun PvPing on private servers than I ever had on retail. But that's just me...

 

Edit - I don't know, maybe it's just people's retarded sense of values, but... It seems like people want to be rewarded with something unique because they felt they did something other people can't do (or aren't willing to do). In the real world, if you earn $100, you earned $100; the means are completely irrelevant (so long as they're legal). I dunno, I guess all the kiddies are still looking to earn that gold star...

This one part of the post I kinda had to laugh at, I dunno maybe you didn't pay WoW that long.

But this is my question, if you arn't going to do endgame raids/groups WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED THAT GEAR??

there is no reson in the world you would need that high end gear, unless you are doing high end raids.

You can go through 100% of wow, without the purple "rare" items....You can go to the AH and get sweet green and even blue armor..you can make it, but your complaining about this 1% of gear that you don't even NEED?!

It makes no sense dude!

Originally posted by Dewm

This is getting ridiculously long, if we're going to continue, next time we need to severely cut down the amount of quoted material or we'll be taking up entire pages with every post.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Lunicur

 If you want a solo game why are you playing an MMO?

Because there is nothing inherently team-based about MMOs?

There is also nothing saying it isn't a team based game, and so far the majority of MMO's are team based, so if anything we are more in the right with past MMO experience.

 Magical changing colors, we're making a rainbow. :)

The majority of MMOs allow you to choose your play style.  If you want to team, you can team.  If you want to solo, you can solo.  Therefore, the majority of MMOs are neither team based nor solo based, they are play-based.

Ok so your saying you have no problem with FFXI? (which as I mentioned before is thee most team based mmo out there?) You can CHOOSE to play on a team, or level by yourself. Just one takes longer.

 Have I ever said I had a problem with it?  I don't.  I have a problem with people who demand that nobody be allowed to play solo ever, if you can play solo and play team, where's the issue?

The argument you are trying to put forward is hypocritical. One one hand you are defending the argument that we need more balance with hardcore vs. casual. And then turn around and tell me the most team based/time sinked game (ffxi) is allright with you......how do you get off on that?

 You're now equating hardcore with teaming and casual with solo, which for one thing isn't true at all and for another, was never part of the argument before, you're just trying to shoehorn it in.  The fact is, *ALL* games are fine with me, I can make a decision whether I want to play it or not, I'm not going to run around and tell people that their way of play is better or worse than any other, I just have a right to choose for myself whether or not to associate myself with them in that particular game. 

We all work hard for our rare items, our money, our rare mounts, and whatever else the MMO you're playing allows for.

Only insofar as they make playing the game easier.  I don't want that rare item because I can show off, I want it because it causes more damage in combat, has better protective value than what I was using or lets me get somewhere faster. 

But why do you want to cause more damage in combat? infact why are you fighting at all? well, probably to level....and to level faster, why do you want to level? to get better gear. people (everyone) likes flashy items, thats why in games they give away "pets, rare swords, cool mounts" and why in RL people get nice cars, big houses

 Because you're playing a game and in any game, as you progress, the enemies get harder and you need to improve your gear and your skills to be able to continue progressing.  That's the point of playing a game, *ANY* game.  Acting like hot shit because you've got a flashy sword is just a sign of immaturity.

Yes, people in RL do the same thing and they're just as immature as the people who do it in a game.  But at the end of the day, at least what they have is real.

So you've never got an extra mile in any MMO to get somthing that only had flashy value? An extra pet, maybe some event that gives you somthing......That bear mount in WoW?

I find that kinda hard to believe...but this being the internet i'm sure you'll lie.

 Can't say I have.  I'm entirely disinterested.  What I look like doesn't matter, in fact for most of my toons, whatever I happen to be wearing is what I look like.  If I have the option of a social tab, I usually keep it turned off.  I'm interested in substance, not flash and it doesn't make a bit of difference if you believe it or not.

Well honestly I find that hard to believe, but you are correct it doesn't matter what I think, and I dont' care what you think. But you are telling me that you go against human nature.

Murder is part of human nature, but we as humans can use intelligence to override our base nature and choose to act in a way that is contrary to it.  There's an awful lot of immature people out there who do things for childish reasons.  The claim that because lots of people do it, it must be alright to do is a logical fallacy, argumentum ad populum.  That doesn't go far in intellectual debate.

MMO communities are exactly like real life. Why do you think people strive to have the most expensive luxuries in RL? Humans are competitve and we crave power. We want to feel like we have some sort of worth, that's why these things are so popular.

Because people are stupid and shallow and equate having flashy things with being better people.  They're also wrong.

So now we are talking about the human race, and what drives people. lemme guess, you live in a trailer home, work at McDonals and drive a old clunker and are completly satisfied?......get real

 No, actually.  Married with two children, own my own business, own a big house with 10 acres.  What do you have?  Going to wave your pathetic little dick around some more?  But of course, I don't have anything to prove in an online game, I'm not here to feel better about myself RL, I don't have to.

It's pathetic that you do.

Why do you own a large house if you only have 2 kids? do you have more then 2 veicles? do you enjoy nice cloths? these are all things that drive people to do better, just the same in a MMO, "i'm going to play the extra 2 hours and do that little bit of research online to get this better gear because it looks cool and has good stats"

Truth is you did buy that bigger house, 3rd car, motorcycle...whatever, to feel better. to have more...

 Yeah, actually we have 3 cars, one of which never gets driven and we'll probably be getting rid of it.  Don't really care about flashy clothes, when I'm not at work, I'm all about t-shirts and jeans, I don't care what anyone thinks about how I look there either.  Obviously the situation changes at work where the expectation is suit and tie.

It's amazing how you can simply pull all that stuff out of your ass and think you have a clue what you're talking about.  I have a big house and a large plot of land because everyone who lives out where I do has one.    It's an upscale area where there's low crime, no graffiti, good schools and you don't have to worry about nosy neighbors peering through your windows because their houses are 6 feet away from yours.  My closest neighbor is a half-mile away.

The truth is, you don't have a goddamn clue.  Anyone surprised?

Lol well I live in Alaska, So I know about space, and I do live in a nice home....but none of this really has to do with anything....so, good for you?

 I didn't bring it up, so sure.  Doesn't matter a bit to me.

Either stop b*tching or GTFO.

You're just proving the OP right, that the people who want all this stuff are the social outcasts, the screwed up people who want to strut around like peacocks because they hope it'll make people respect them.

In my other post about 2 post up I give a nice detailed post about how this is actually not true at all. you are grouping alot of people togeather to prove a point, so you do hate blacks because 65% of people in prisions are black? do you hate all muslims because so far every terrorist attack on the US has been by a muslim?

It's amazing that later on you accuse me of being racist when you're the only one who has ever brought up race.  Project much?

Lol you've brought up a c*ck twice already, eather you want to see mine, or you are projecting....

 Learn to spell.

Haha, poor boy can't come up with anything...

 No, I'm being honest.  I asked you a question, you dodged it, there wasn't anything worth responding to.  You're being terribly immature throughout this whole thing.

In other words, exactly the kind of people most of us don't want to play with.

So far we have decided that you are a hatefull, racist, non-human,...thing with a huge lack of achievment.

Sounds like no one wants to play with you.....(maybe thats why you like single player games?)

Wow, managed to get racist out of it?  How in the hell did you do that?

And the funny thing is, I can get into any group I want to, I build teams like crazy when I have the need to, but I don't do it just to be in a team, I do it for specific purposes.  You, on the other hand, sound like someone who can only feel liked if you've got a pile of people around you who are only using you for their own individual needs.  You are aware that's the way MMO grouping works, right?  Or aren't you that smart?

Of course they are there for there "own needs". but you can still have fun doing it. thats what this whole thread is about, the community. Like I said before you must not have play'd much more then WoW, because there are some great games out there with great communitys. Sure we are all leveling for us, sure we want to get great gear. But you can still be polite, hang out, have fun, chat it up, at the same time.

Maybe you arn't capable of that, I dunno....

 But community isn't just about sticking a bunch of people together who use each other to get things they want, that's not a community at all.  I've spent a lot of time sitting around buffing people for free, doing free tradeskilling and just talking to people, and it's a lot more fun than the kind of teaming you're talking about.  You might have fun like that, I don't and what I've been doing is a lot more condusive to a good community than taking 10 guys and running into a hole in the wall for loot.

But maybe you are just that shallow, I dunno...

I've PL'd people, healed and buffed. But how did you get to a high enough level to do that? By leveling Duhhh, and i'm sure in some of those games you joined groups to level, which means you where in it for yourself.

Get off your high horse there is nothing wrong with that. People play games for themselfs, sure they help others out but that isn't the main reson.

How did I get high enough?  By playing the game.  Certainly I've joined groups, I've never said otherwise, but primarily I've played solo and I get the same levels and the same gear as anyone who played almost entirely in groups.  While I don't want to generalize, I will say that a lot of the always-grouping people I've seen tend to be a lot less generous, they want to sell buffs, they want to sell tradeskills, they see other people as a resource that they can use, not as people that they need to share space with and get along with.  I've never paid for a buff in my life, nor have I ever charged for one.  I did, however, run into one particular jerk in a group once who insisted, and keep in mind this is in a group, that he'd buff people if they'd buff him in return, otherwise, his teammates had to PAY him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not the game, it's the players.

The best communities I have seen are on FPS games and places like Second Life.  Both are mostly solo affairs.  The reason communities thrive there is because folks choose not to act like jerks.

I don't care how group friendly and team based a MMO is, if folks are being jerks, the community will not be there and the game will ultimately fail.

Look at any forum board on the net.   Read the posts, especially the troll and fanboi posts, that are filled with rubbish, hate, idiocy, rudeness, elitism and so on.  And then ask yourself, "Would you want to group with those people?"  I bet the answer is "No."  Add in the fact, that the same attitude and behavior one sees on the forums plays out time and time again in the actual games...

Then realize, that such folks make up a large part of the MMO community.  And you wonder why no one wants to group?

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

That works for me, but there are two problems.

1. What's the rate of progress for groupers and soloers we can agree on? What's teh sweet spot where I, as a grouper, will think i'm being rewarded for my efforts of taking time to group and work as a team, while you the solo player will not get bored and quit because it takes so much longer to make any progress?

Why does it matter to you at all how long it takes someone else to get somewhere?  What difference does it make?  Why do you spend so much time worried about what everyone else is doing?

2. End game. During leveling, it's not hard to set this up. I can kill Red or purple mobs in a group, and they will give me great xp and loot for my level or skill level. The solo player will be killing green mobs, and not getting so much xp or loot for his level. The solo player can go back later after he levels and kill the same Red or Purple mobs I'm killing now, but then they will be green to him, and he'll still not be getting such great loot or xp.

Hey, I, as a solo player, can kill red mobs just fine on my own, I don't need a group.  The only place that I need a group is killing large groups of red mobs, which is fantastic XP, but if I could do them one at a time, I could get the same XP on my own without needing a group.  In general terms, you're right, a group will always be able to take out the bigger and stronger mobs and get better loot and more XP.

Of course, I think the endgame is entirely pointless and I don't participate in it whatsoever, so... your mileage may vary.

Originally posted by Dewm

But this is my question, if you arn't going to do endgame raids/groups WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED THAT GEAR??

To play the game.  Duh.  If you're playing Halo, just to pick a game at random, why do you need to pick up better weapons, better gear, more powerups?  To play the game!  There is no endgame, when the game ends, it's over, you're improving your stats and your gear to defeat the harder enemies that are coming up in the game.  That's it.  That's all.  If you can't understand that... I don't know what to tell you.

Originally posted by ericbelser

Originally posted by Meleagar

"This, this right here shows the root problem of the rabid soloist. You are basically trying to claim that a soloist deserves equal rewards compared to an entire group of players over the same time period and yet fail to see what is wrong with that idea and why it utterly kills group play."

More of  the typical obfuscation and deceit that these people must use to justify their needs for superiority. No soloist advocate that I've ever read - including me - has **ever** advocated for "same rewards in the same time period"; we have all advocated that groups and powergamers get the rewards well before soloers and casuals get the same rewards. What we argue is ONLY that all rewards be EVENTUALLY accessible to the soloer and the casual player.

 

Yet that is exactly what your post said, so you didn't mean it? Or just have serious problems with the english language?

I quoted you exactly, nothing out of context. "equal rewards for equal solo effort" What part of what you wrote there is unclear or somehow doesn't mean that? You come back to it time and again in your post, even spotlighting it in your conclusion. You believe that the casual soloist is entitled to exactly the same rewards as someone who is able to invest more time in the game. Despite your claims about playing to just have fun, you are the one who can't get past the numbers and pixellated rewards of that leet gear you so bemoan.

The time a 5-man group invests into getting an item is not just X, but 5 times X.  If it takes a group 1 hr to get X, it should take the soloer 5 hrs. EQUAL reward for EQUAL effort. It appears that it isn't my language skill, but your math skill that is suspect.

As far as powergamers are concerned, if it takes a powergamer 10 hrs to get something, it should take the casual player 10 hrs to get something.  However, if the content is arranged so that the thing in question can only be attained if you spend 10 hrs in ONE SITTING, then the casual player can't get it.   It should be available after an accumulation of 10 hrs of effort.

Here's the difference between us: you want exclusive rewards that are tailored to your playstyle; I want equal rewards for equal effort (time invested) across playstyles.

Originally posted by Cephus404

To play the game.  Duh.  If you're playing Halo, just to pick a game at random, why do you need to pick up better weapons, better gear, more powerups?  To play the game!  There is no endgame, when the game ends, it's over, you're improving your stats and your gear to defeat the harder enemies that are coming up in the game.  That's it.  That's all.  If you can't understand that... I don't know what to tell you.

So what we're talking about is a single player game where people can sometimes group with others?

Those are called multiplayer games.  There are thousands of them.  The only reason to then request that the multiplayer game be turned into an MMO is so that comparisons between avatars can be made more easily.

And those comparisons are what inspires grinding.  Whether offline advancement is available or not, the gameplay while online becomes about who has the better gear, better stats, and better strategy.  Some players will get to the "end" faster than others, and if there is no "end game" to appease them, they will simply leave.

It's a "been there, done that" sor t of thing.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Meleagar

"This, this right here shows the root problem of the rabid soloist. You are basically trying to claim that a soloist deserves equal rewards compared to an entire group of players over the same time period and yet fail to see what is wrong with that idea and why it utterly kills group play."

More of  the typical obfuscation and deceit that these people must use to justify their needs for superiority. No soloist advocate that I've ever read - including me - has **ever** advocated for "same rewards in the same time period"; we have all advocated that groups and powergamers get the rewards well before soloers and casuals get the same rewards. What we argue is ONLY that all rewards be EVENTUALLY accessible to the soloer and the casual player.

 

That works for me, but there are two problems.

1. What's the rate of progress for groupers and soloers we can agree on? What's teh sweet spot where I, as a grouper, will think i'm being rewarded for my efforts of taking time to group and work as a team, while you the solo player will not get bored and quit because it takes so much longer to make any progress?

2. End game. During leveling, it's not hard to set this up. I can kill Red or purple mobs in a group, and they will give me great xp and loot for my level or skill level. The solo player will be killing green mobs, and not getting so much xp or loot for his level. The solo player can go back later after he levels and kill the same Red or Purple mobs I'm killing now, but then they will be green to him, and he'll still not be getting such great loot or xp.

But what about when you're max level? If you can do the same Dungeons solo that I can do in a group, what's the point in grouping?

And how do we let you access that content later, if you're not going to get any more powerful?

You talk as if the game should be designed for the groups, and then try to accommodate the soloer afterward.  Imagine creating the game for soloers.  Which will get the better rewards faster?  Which will be able to see content faster?  Who will be able to go places first? Answer to all three: groups.

Who said there should be a point to grouping beyond that?

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by neosapience

Originally posted by Lord_Ixigan

Why should you get the same rewards I do? Finding a group isn't an issue for me, but I still have to coordinate with other people while you don't. We're spending equal time, but NOT EQUAL EFFORT. Why should you get the same rewards?

Answer that question and you have yourself a valid arguement. You cannot REASONABLY answer that question and still have a leg to stand on, so I'm going to consider this thread over.

 

I think people are missing the point here. It's not about equal reward it's about access. One of the biggest issues I had with WoW was not being able to get good gear, which then prevented me from (you guessed it) getting better gear.

 

It's also important to point out that some classes basically do the same thing in a group as they do in solo play. How would you suggest we reward such classes? Deny them access to good gear? Reward them just for being there?

 

To be honest, issues just like these are exactly why I quit retail and started playing on private servers. I had 100x more fun PvPing on private servers than I ever had on retail. But that's just me...

 

Edit - I don't know, maybe it's just people's retarded sense of values, but... It seems like people want to be rewarded with something unique because they felt they did something other people can't do (or aren't willing to do). In the real world, if you earn $100, you earned $100; the means are completely irrelevant (so long as they're legal). I dunno, I guess all the kiddies are still looking to earn that gold star...

 

This one part of the post I kinda had to laugh at, I dunno maybe you didn't pay WoW that long.

But this is my question, if you arn't going to do endgame raids/groups WHY THE HELL DO YOU NEED THAT GEAR??

there is no reson in the world you would need that high end gear, unless you are doing high end raids.

You can go through 100% of wow, without the purple "rare" items....You can go to the AH and get sweet green and even blue armor..you can make it, but your complaining about this 1% of gear that you don't even NEED?!

It makes no sense dude!

So, you'd be totally okay if the only time you could wear that gear was when you were actually in a top end raid, and the rest of the time you had no access to it?
 

The thing is if it takes a 25 man raid, say, 12 hours to beat a specific encounter I don't think many soloers would be that thrilled about having to spend 300 hours to get the equivalent item, especially if that player is limited in the time he (or she) can play anyway.

Originally posted by Meleagar

So, you'd be totally okay if the only time you could wear that gear was when you were actually in a top end raid, and the rest of the time you had no access to it?
 

That's not the point at all. The point is that top-end gear is there for people who like shinies. If you aren't willing to go through the effort to get said shinies, then why are you complaining?

You guys are complaining because you want to spend 15 minutes at max level and have a few shinies in hand without any amount of effort. I have seen plenty of people play games completely solo and still end up with a good amount of shinies, but it took a long time and they weren't the best stuff in the game.

Point: If you guys don't care about top-end raids, major group content or generally dealing with other people outside of 1v1 ganks then why do you care about shinies?

point: Again, if I have 2 hours to spend in game with a group and you have the same amount of time without a group where do you draw the line? If you can solo the SAME instance that my entire group can do and get the same rewards, what is the point to groups? You can't make everything in an MMO solo accessible because then you completely screw over your group content. I play games with people I know, the better the group content the more fun we have. It's not forced grouping for us, it's just content we can all do together.

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

Originally posted by Cephus404

To play the game.  Duh.  If you're playing Halo, just to pick a game at random, why do you need to pick up better weapons, better gear, more powerups?  To play the game!  There is no endgame, when the game ends, it's over, you're improving your stats and your gear to defeat the harder enemies that are coming up in the game.  That's it.  That's all.  If you can't understand that... I don't know what to tell you.

 

So what we're talking about is a single player game where people can sometimes group with others?

Those are called multiplayer games.  There are thousands of them.  The only reason to then request that the multiplayer game be turned into an MMO is so that comparisons between avatars can be made more easily.

And those comparisons are what inspires grinding.  Whether offline advancement is available or not, the gameplay while online becomes about who has the better gear, better stats, and better strategy.  Some players will get to the "end" faster than others, and if there is no "end game" to appease them, they will simply leave.

It's a "been there, done that" sor t of thing.

Yes, it's a multiplayer game.  There's a player.  There's another player over there.  Everywhere you look, there are players.  That doesn't mean that they all have to be in a team to play, that's the point.  An MMO is just a game where there are lots of people playing in the same world at the same time.  Massively Multi-player.  Not Massively Teaming.  Not Massively Grouping.  

The only reason an end game exists is to keep people paying their monthly fees for a longer period of time.  Most people go on and create another character in a different class and do it all over again.  Being at the end, being thrown a few scraps so you can raid or PvP is entirely boring to me.

Bottom line: There are games SPECIFICALLY made for solo-players, thousands of them. Hell there are even some MMO's out there built around full solo mentality. They aren't very good, but they're out there and the communities on them fucking suck.

Solo gamers are the most vocal people I know that crop up whenever a major MMO comes around to complain. You guys aren't satisfied with the solo games out there, you want EVERY game to be a completely solo game. That's just ridiculous.

Maybe I want all solo games to be as hard as Ninja Gaiden Black on Hell? I can make a convincing case about that. But it's ridiculous because not all games are created equal. Some are made for kids, some are made for whatever you call people that play Hello Kitty Online, some are made for "leet pvperzzz', some are made with a focus on guild and politics (e.g. Eve), some are made for the PvE'er (LOTRO), some are made for people who have ninja reflexes and coordination (Ninja Gaiden Black).

It's just as ridiculous as someone saying all these religions in the world are stupid, but mine is awesome so all of them should be like it. So....don't be ridiculous and realize there are games out there for all tastes, go play those.

 Edit:

If you think your playstyle is such a fantastic way of doing things then go ahead and go make a...uhhh, well it wouldn't be an MMO.....make an online game that is fully accessible to solo players. Go ahead, find 30+ million dollars and get to work. Then watch as your game doesn't even make it out of the gate.