Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Lunicur

 If you want a solo game why are you playing an MMO?

Because there is nothing inherently team-based about MMOs?

There is also nothing saying it isn't a team based game, and so far the majority of MMO's are team based, so if anything we are more in the right with past MMO experience.

 Magical changing colors, we're making a rainbow. :)

The majority of MMOs allow you to choose your play style.  If you want to team, you can team.  If you want to solo, you can solo.  Therefore, the majority of MMOs are neither team based nor solo based, they are play-based.

Ok so your saying you have no problem with FFXI? (which as I mentioned before is thee most team based mmo out there?) You can CHOOSE to play on a team, or level by yourself. Just one takes longer.

 

And if I'm playing an MMO I better be able to be superior to someone.

Why, are you that shallow that you have to show off a bunch of colored pixels to feel good about yourself?  Seriously?

Its a game, why do people play games? to have FUN and to WIN. and if you have to have that new sword, and you want to spend a hour grinding for it.......DO IT! If they made it so people wern't superior to others it would be no fun and MMO's would die. So you sir are retarded. (I mean that in the real sense)

 But is having that super sword something that will help you win, or is it just something that lets you swing your e-peen?  You fail to see the  difference between getting a tool for use as a tool and getting a tool so you can show off and pretend you're better than everyone else.

You, sir, are an idiot if you can't see the difference.  Now grow the hell up.

Grow the hell up? i'm convinced you are correct now.

 

We all work hard for our rare items, our money, our rare mounts, and whatever else the MMO you're playing allows for.

Only insofar as they make playing the game easier.  I don't want that rare item because I can show off, I want it because it causes more damage in combat, has better protective value than what I was using or lets me get somewhere faster. 

But why do you want to cause more damage in combat? infact why are you fighting at all? well, probably to level....and to level faster, why do you want to level? to get better gear. people (everyone) likes flashy items, thats why in games they give away "pets, rare swords, cool mounts" and why in RL people get nice cars, big houses

 Because you're playing a game and in any game, as you progress, the enemies get harder and you need to improve your gear and your skills to be able to continue progressing.  That's the point of playing a game, *ANY* game.  Acting like hot shit because you've got a flashy sword is just a sign of immaturity.

Yes, people in RL do the same thing and they're just as immature as the people who do it in a game.  But at the end of the day, at least what they have is real.

So you've never got an extra mile in any MMO to get somthing that only had flashy value? An extra pet, maybe some event that gives you somthing......That bear mount in WoW?

I find that kinda hard to believe...but this being the internet i'm sure you'll lie.

 

MMO communities are exactly like real life. Why do you think people strive to have the most expensive luxuries in RL? Humans are competitve and we crave power. We want to feel like we have some sort of worth, that's why these things are so popular.

Because people are stupid and shallow and equate having flashy things with being better people.  They're also wrong.

So now we are talking about the human race, and what drives people. lemme guess, you live in a trailer home, work at McDonals and drive a old clunker and are completly satisfied?......get real

 No, actually.  Married with two children, own my own business, own a big house with 10 acres.  What do you have?  Going to wave your pathetic little dick around some more?  But of course, I don't have anything to prove in an online game, I'm not here to feel better about myself RL, I don't have to.

It's pathetic that you do.

Why do you own a large house if you only have 2 kids? do you have more then 2 veicles? do you enjoy nice cloths? these are all things that drive people to do better, just the same in a MMO, "i'm going to play the extra 2 hours and do that little bit of research online to get this better gear because it looks cool and has good stats"

Truth is you did buy that bigger house, 3rd car, motorcycle...whatever, to feel better. to have more...

 

Either stop b*tching or GTFO.

You're just proving the OP right, that the people who want all this stuff are the social outcasts, the screwed up people who want to strut around like peacocks because they hope it'll make people respect them.

In my other post about 2 post up I give a nice detailed post about how this is actually not true at all. you are grouping alot of people togeather to prove a point, so you do hate blacks because 65% of people in prisions are black? do you hate all muslims because so far every terrorist attack on the US has been by a muslim?

It's amazing that later on you accuse me of being racist when you're the only one who has ever brought up race.  Project much?

Lol you've brought up a c*ck twice already, eather you want to see mine, or you are projecting....

 

In other words, exactly the kind of people most of us don't want to play with.

So far we have decided that you are a hatefull, racist, non-human,...thing with a huge lack of achievment.

Sounds like no one wants to play with you.....(maybe thats why you like single player games?)

Wow, managed to get racist out of it?  How in the hell did you do that?

And the funny thing is, I can get into any group I want to, I build teams like crazy when I have the need to, but I don't do it just to be in a team, I do it for specific purposes.  You, on the other hand, sound like someone who can only feel liked if you've got a pile of people around you who are only using you for their own individual needs.  You are aware that's the way MMO grouping works, right?  Or aren't you that smart?

Of course they are there for there "own needs". but you can still have fun doing it. thats what this whole thread is about, the community. Like I said before you must not have play'd much more then WoW, because there are some great games out there with great communitys. Sure we are all leveling for us, sure we want to get great gear. But you can still be polite, hang out, have fun, chat it up, at the same time.

Maybe you arn't capable of that, I dunno....

 

 

 

 

The OP keeps mentioning equal rewards in mmos.  I guess this part confuses me.  He actually thinks that the hardcore gamers are the only ones possible to attain some things.  This is in fact wrong.  A casual gamer can attain anything that a hardcore gamer can unless its something like in Wow with the pvp ranks, since there was only one rank 1 only the person who plays 15 hours a day and lets a friend play the rest of the time can get it.  I hate wow and I have never seen something like that on other games.

I have never been a lifeless nerd who plays all day on an mmo.  I have a job, I have a life that requires my time but I still find plenty of free time to relax and play an mmo.  The most I ever got into one was when I was in school and maybe in the summer I would play like 6 hours a day. 

I dont expect equal rewards in mmos.  It just doesnt make sense to me, if im killing 50 mobs in 2 hours why should I get the same xp/loot as someone who just killed 300 mobs in 10 hours?  The people who spend more time are always going to be more advanced than someone who doesnt.  This goes for all things in life not just mmos.  I cant expect to pickup a basketball and be better than Michael Jordan can I?  I hate basketball and havent devoted any time at all to it since I was 12 so of course others are going to be better than me. 

However in nearly every mmo just because that person plays 15 hours a day doesnt mean only he will be able to get those items.  It just takes him much less time to do so.  In my experience these people usually quit in less than a year because they are always so far ahead of everyone and say they have done everything.  I will be able to get the same things as him playing 2-3 hours a day, its just going to take me longer and I have no problem with that.

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by Meleagar

After reading several players comment about how no  one would group in a game unless they were forced by goals or mechanics to do so......

 

This is an issue most people on this forum are very wrong about.  Most people in CoX group.  And no on is forced to by goals or mechanics. 

Unless you consider leveling about twice as fast a goals or mechanic.  

Leveling twice as fast is a HUGE draw for grouping. 

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Lunicur

 If you want a solo game why are you playing an MMO?

Because there is nothing inherently team-based about MMOs?

There is also nothing saying it isn't a team based game, and so far the majority of MMO's are team based, so if anything we are more in the right with past MMO experience.

 Magical changing colors, we're making a rainbow. :)

The majority of MMOs allow you to choose your play style.  If you want to team, you can team.  If you want to solo, you can solo.  Therefore, the majority of MMOs are neither team based nor solo based, they are play-based.

Ok so your saying you have no problem with FFXI? (which as I mentioned before is thee most team based mmo out there?) You can CHOOSE to play on a team, or level by yourself. Just one takes longer.

 Have I ever said I had a problem with it?  I don't.  I have a problem with people who demand that nobody be allowed to play solo ever, if you can play solo and play team, where's the issue?

 

We all work hard for our rare items, our money, our rare mounts, and whatever else the MMO you're playing allows for.

Only insofar as they make playing the game easier.  I don't want that rare item because I can show off, I want it because it causes more damage in combat, has better protective value than what I was using or lets me get somewhere faster. 

But why do you want to cause more damage in combat? infact why are you fighting at all? well, probably to level....and to level faster, why do you want to level? to get better gear. people (everyone) likes flashy items, thats why in games they give away "pets, rare swords, cool mounts" and why in RL people get nice cars, big houses

 Because you're playing a game and in any game, as you progress, the enemies get harder and you need to improve your gear and your skills to be able to continue progressing.  That's the point of playing a game, *ANY* game.  Acting like hot shit because you've got a flashy sword is just a sign of immaturity.

Yes, people in RL do the same thing and they're just as immature as the people who do it in a game.  But at the end of the day, at least what they have is real.

So you've never got an extra mile in any MMO to get somthing that only had flashy value? An extra pet, maybe some event that gives you somthing......That bear mount in WoW?

I find that kinda hard to believe...but this being the internet i'm sure you'll lie.

 Can't say I have.  I'm entirely disinterested.  What I look like doesn't matter, in fact for most of my toons, whatever I happen to be wearing is what I look like.  If I have the option of a social tab, I usually keep it turned off.  I'm interested in substance, not flash and it doesn't make a bit of difference if you believe it or not.

MMO communities are exactly like real life. Why do you think people strive to have the most expensive luxuries in RL? Humans are competitve and we crave power. We want to feel like we have some sort of worth, that's why these things are so popular.

Because people are stupid and shallow and equate having flashy things with being better people.  They're also wrong.

So now we are talking about the human race, and what drives people. lemme guess, you live in a trailer home, work at McDonals and drive a old clunker and are completly satisfied?......get real

 No, actually.  Married with two children, own my own business, own a big house with 10 acres.  What do you have?  Going to wave your pathetic little dick around some more?  But of course, I don't have anything to prove in an online game, I'm not here to feel better about myself RL, I don't have to.

It's pathetic that you do.

Why do you own a large house if you only have 2 kids? do you have more then 2 veicles? do you enjoy nice cloths? these are all things that drive people to do better, just the same in a MMO, "i'm going to play the extra 2 hours and do that little bit of research online to get this better gear because it looks cool and has good stats"

Truth is you did buy that bigger house, 3rd car, motorcycle...whatever, to feel better. to have more...

 Yeah, actually we have 3 cars, one of which never gets driven and we'll probably be getting rid of it.  Don't really care about flashy clothes, when I'm not at work, I'm all about t-shirts and jeans, I don't care what anyone thinks about how I look there either.  Obviously the situation changes at work where the expectation is suit and tie.

It's amazing how you can simply pull all that stuff out of your ass and think you have a clue what you're talking about.  I have a big house and a large plot of land because everyone who lives out where I do has one.    It's an upscale area where there's low crime, no graffiti, good schools and you don't have to worry about nosy neighbors peering through your windows because their houses are 6 feet away from yours.  My closest neighbor is a half-mile away.

The truth is, you don't have a goddamn clue.  Anyone surprised?

Either stop b*tching or GTFO.

You're just proving the OP right, that the people who want all this stuff are the social outcasts, the screwed up people who want to strut around like peacocks because they hope it'll make people respect them.

In my other post about 2 post up I give a nice detailed post about how this is actually not true at all. you are grouping alot of people togeather to prove a point, so you do hate blacks because 65% of people in prisions are black? do you hate all muslims because so far every terrorist attack on the US has been by a muslim?

It's amazing that later on you accuse me of being racist when you're the only one who has ever brought up race.  Project much?

Lol you've brought up a c*ck twice already, eather you want to see mine, or you are projecting....

 Learn to spell.

In other words, exactly the kind of people most of us don't want to play with.

So far we have decided that you are a hatefull, racist, non-human,...thing with a huge lack of achievment.

Sounds like no one wants to play with you.....(maybe thats why you like single player games?)

Wow, managed to get racist out of it?  How in the hell did you do that?

And the funny thing is, I can get into any group I want to, I build teams like crazy when I have the need to, but I don't do it just to be in a team, I do it for specific purposes.  You, on the other hand, sound like someone who can only feel liked if you've got a pile of people around you who are only using you for their own individual needs.  You are aware that's the way MMO grouping works, right?  Or aren't you that smart?

Of course they are there for there "own needs". but you can still have fun doing it. thats what this whole thread is about, the community. Like I said before you must not have play'd much more then WoW, because there are some great games out there with great communitys. Sure we are all leveling for us, sure we want to get great gear. But you can still be polite, hang out, have fun, chat it up, at the same time.

Maybe you arn't capable of that, I dunno....

 But community isn't just about sticking a bunch of people together who use each other to get things they want, that's not a community at all.  I've spent a lot of time sitting around buffing people for free, doing free tradeskilling and just talking to people, and it's a lot more fun than the kind of teaming you're talking about.  You might have fun like that, I don't and what I've been doing is a lot more condusive to a good community than taking 10 guys and running into a hole in the wall for loot.

But maybe you are just that shallow, I dunno...

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Leveling twice as fast is a HUGE draw for grouping. 

It's not even twice as fast, I can gain maybe a level a day solo if I stick with it for 5-6 hours.  If I team, I can make 2-3 levels an hour, maybe more, depending on where we play.  But with all of that, a lot of people still choose to solo much of the time.

Imagine that.

Originally posted by x_rast_x 

OP wants to feel superior to everyone without doing anything to prove that he is, in fact, actually superior to everyone else.  My guess is this applies to his RL and well as MMOs.

How does killing things in a group make you superior to anyone else? Solo play can actually be much harder than group play, depending on your class and build. So why should group rewards be better than solo rewards?

The answer is simple: Group rewards take longer to achieve and therefore the developers make more money. Also, see my previous post.

Originally posted by Meleagar

After reading several players comment about how no  one would group in a game unless they were forced by goals or mechanics to do so, I realized the sad truth about modern MMOGs; they're largely programmed and populated by social misfits and outcasts whose only hope of being accepted or admired by a group is if grouping is forced on everyone.  In other words, the casuals - those with lives outside the game - are forced to group up with the internet game junkies and addicts if they want to achieve the higher rewards; in fact, the casuals have to become like those junkies and addicts if they ever want to see top game content.

Newsflash:  MMO's have reached mainstream people thanks to WoW.  Your old stereotype of MMO players being complete nerds no longer applies.  You are just as likely to be slaying mobs with an air force fighter pilot, a football player, or a cheerleader as you are a dork. Is this a good thing?  Not for me, because I prefer a more challenging and communal MMO.  That's my opinion though.

I know people from all different backgrounds who play MMO's now, and few of them are "social misfits".  The problem is that these games have been designed from the ground up to cater to the solo player who wants instant gratification that requires no more than 1 hour of gameplay to accomplish.  The games are designed to focus people on what level they are, and what stats are on their gear. They are also funneling people as fast as possible toward the end game.  If people can accomplish these levels without having to slow down to make a group, why wouldn't they?  Remember, they are in a race to get to level cap.

What you need to do is check out some of the indy MMO's coming down the line, and get away from the solo-focused mainstream games.

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by Meleagar

After reading several players comment about how no  one would group in a game unless they were forced by goals or mechanics to do so......

 

This is an issue most people on this forum are very wrong about.  Most people in CoX group.  And no on is forced to by goals or mechanics. 

Unless you consider leveling about twice as fast a goals or mechanic.  

Leveling twice as fast is a HUGE draw for grouping. 

In SWG there were hubs where hundreds of players would get together just to form groups to go grind XP.  This was for a couple reasons. 1) The XP bonus was good.  2) The mobs were tough enough that you actually needed a group to take on a whole lair and safely travel the planets.  Chain pulls and all that sort of thing were common and deadly.  SWG also had stalking mobs that would jump members of the group during combat, and end up wiping the whole group.  It was a lot of fun.  The popular games out these days are filled with solo-friendly puss mobs.  Why would anyone bother to group when it's not all that useful or fun?

Again the problem is game design, and the pussification of gameplay.

Hypocritical

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Lunicur

 If you want a solo game why are you playing an MMO?

Because there is nothing inherently team-based about MMOs?

There is also nothing saying it isn't a team based game, and so far the majority of MMO's are team based, so if anything we are more in the right with past MMO experience.

 Magical changing colors, we're making a rainbow. :)

The majority of MMOs allow you to choose your play style.  If you want to team, you can team.  If you want to solo, you can solo.  Therefore, the majority of MMOs are neither team based nor solo based, they are play-based.

Ok so your saying you have no problem with FFXI? (which as I mentioned before is thee most team based mmo out there?) You can CHOOSE to play on a team, or level by yourself. Just one takes longer.

 Have I ever said I had a problem with it?  I don't.  I have a problem with people who demand that nobody be allowed to play solo ever, if you can play solo and play team, where's the issue?

The argument you are trying to put forward is hypocritical. One one hand you are defending the argument that we need more balance with hardcore vs. casual. And then turn around and tell me the most team based/time sinked game (ffxi) is allright with you......how do you get off on that?

 

 

We all work hard for our rare items, our money, our rare mounts, and whatever else the MMO you're playing allows for.

Only insofar as they make playing the game easier.  I don't want that rare item because I can show off, I want it because it causes more damage in combat, has better protective value than what I was using or lets me get somewhere faster. 

But why do you want to cause more damage in combat? infact why are you fighting at all? well, probably to level....and to level faster, why do you want to level? to get better gear. people (everyone) likes flashy items, thats why in games they give away "pets, rare swords, cool mounts" and why in RL people get nice cars, big houses

 Because you're playing a game and in any game, as you progress, the enemies get harder and you need to improve your gear and your skills to be able to continue progressing.  That's the point of playing a game, *ANY* game.  Acting like hot shit because you've got a flashy sword is just a sign of immaturity.

Yes, people in RL do the same thing and they're just as immature as the people who do it in a game.  But at the end of the day, at least what they have is real.

So you've never got an extra mile in any MMO to get somthing that only had flashy value? An extra pet, maybe some event that gives you somthing......That bear mount in WoW?

I find that kinda hard to believe...but this being the internet i'm sure you'll lie.

 Can't say I have.  I'm entirely disinterested.  What I look like doesn't matter, in fact for most of my toons, whatever I happen to be wearing is what I look like.  If I have the option of a social tab, I usually keep it turned off.  I'm interested in substance, not flash and it doesn't make a bit of difference if you believe it or not.

Well honestly I find that hard to believe, but you are correct it doesn't matter what I think, and I dont' care what you think. But you are telling me that you go against human nature.

 

MMO communities are exactly like real life. Why do you think people strive to have the most expensive luxuries in RL? Humans are competitve and we crave power. We want to feel like we have some sort of worth, that's why these things are so popular.

Because people are stupid and shallow and equate having flashy things with being better people.  They're also wrong.

So now we are talking about the human race, and what drives people. lemme guess, you live in a trailer home, work at McDonals and drive a old clunker and are completly satisfied?......get real

 No, actually.  Married with two children, own my own business, own a big house with 10 acres.  What do you have?  Going to wave your pathetic little dick around some more?  But of course, I don't have anything to prove in an online game, I'm not here to feel better about myself RL, I don't have to.

It's pathetic that you do.

Why do you own a large house if you only have 2 kids? do you have more then 2 veicles? do you enjoy nice cloths? these are all things that drive people to do better, just the same in a MMO, "i'm going to play the extra 2 hours and do that little bit of research online to get this better gear because it looks cool and has good stats"

Truth is you did buy that bigger house, 3rd car, motorcycle...whatever, to feel better. to have more...

 Yeah, actually we have 3 cars, one of which never gets driven and we'll probably be getting rid of it.  Don't really care about flashy clothes, when I'm not at work, I'm all about t-shirts and jeans, I don't care what anyone thinks about how I look there either.  Obviously the situation changes at work where the expectation is suit and tie.

It's amazing how you can simply pull all that stuff out of your ass and think you have a clue what you're talking about.  I have a big house and a large plot of land because everyone who lives out where I do has one.    It's an upscale area where there's low crime, no graffiti, good schools and you don't have to worry about nosy neighbors peering through your windows because their houses are 6 feet away from yours.  My closest neighbor is a half-mile away.

The truth is, you don't have a goddamn clue.  Anyone surprised?

Lol well I live in Alaska, So I know about space, and I do live in a nice home....but none of this really has to do with anything....so, good for you?

 

Either stop b*tching or GTFO.

You're just proving the OP right, that the people who want all this stuff are the social outcasts, the screwed up people who want to strut around like peacocks because they hope it'll make people respect them.

In my other post about 2 post up I give a nice detailed post about how this is actually not true at all. you are grouping alot of people togeather to prove a point, so you do hate blacks because 65% of people in prisions are black? do you hate all muslims because so far every terrorist attack on the US has been by a muslim?

It's amazing that later on you accuse me of being racist when you're the only one who has ever brought up race.  Project much?

Lol you've brought up a c*ck twice already, eather you want to see mine, or you are projecting....

 Learn to spell.

Haha, poor boy can't come up with anything...

 

In other words, exactly the kind of people most of us don't want to play with.

So far we have decided that you are a hatefull, racist, non-human,...thing with a huge lack of achievment.

Sounds like no one wants to play with you.....(maybe thats why you like single player games?)

Wow, managed to get racist out of it?  How in the hell did you do that?

And the funny thing is, I can get into any group I want to, I build teams like crazy when I have the need to, but I don't do it just to be in a team, I do it for specific purposes.  You, on the other hand, sound like someone who can only feel liked if you've got a pile of people around you who are only using you for their own individual needs.  You are aware that's the way MMO grouping works, right?  Or aren't you that smart?

Of course they are there for there "own needs". but you can still have fun doing it. thats what this whole thread is about, the community. Like I said before you must not have play'd much more then WoW, because there are some great games out there with great communitys. Sure we are all leveling for us, sure we want to get great gear. But you can still be polite, hang out, have fun, chat it up, at the same time.

Maybe you arn't capable of that, I dunno....

 But community isn't just about sticking a bunch of people together who use each other to get things they want, that's not a community at all.  I've spent a lot of time sitting around buffing people for free, doing free tradeskilling and just talking to people, and it's a lot more fun than the kind of teaming you're talking about.  You might have fun like that, I don't and what I've been doing is a lot more condusive to a good community than taking 10 guys and running into a hole in the wall for loot.

But maybe you are just that shallow, I dunno...

I've PL'd people, healed and buffed. But how did you get to a high enough level to do that? By leveling Duhhh, and i'm sure in some of those games you joined groups to level, which means you where in it for yourself.

Get off your high horse there is nothing wrong with that. People play games for themselfs, sure they help others out but that isn't the main reson.

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone should be a winner!!!

Get real bro, nothing in life is like this, including games. More time invested = better rewards. Actually this is more true for games (aside from FPS and the like since they incorporate player skill) than for many things in life since individual talent doesn't really factor into the equation. So saying that you shouldn't have to play large numbers of hours to get the best stuff and content in the game is ridiculous. If everyone could finish everything in a short amount of time people would having nothing to do and would quit and the company would lose money.

I'm not even going to go into the other part of the topic which is that people who enjoy forced grouping or whatever you call it are social outcasts...here's a hint. When trying to make an argument, don't use broad generalizations as your main points.

Originally posted by raykor

Generalize much?

whats wrong with generalization? groups are characterized by majority.

I actually agree with the OP and it's the reason why I am seriously thinking about quitting MMOs alltogether. The amount of miscreants is out of hand, and I admit, the games have even affected my behavior a little bit. Online games really shouldn't be about feeling superior to others, they should be about enjoying social time with others, no matter how you are doing it in the game.

Originally posted by jusomdude

I actually agree with the OP and it's the reason why I am seriously thinking about quitting MMOs alltogether. The amount of miscreants is out of hand, and I admit, the games have even affected my behavior a little bit. Online games really shouldn't be about feeling superior to others, they should be about enjoying social time with others, no matter how you are doing it in the game.

And I read the OP's posts and think, how can someone come to such incorrect conclusions?

Back in the early days of DAOC, you pretty much had to group to effectively level, esp if you were a support class or healer.

Couple that with game mechanics that had down time, people camping mob spawns etc and I had some of th best times in online gaming.

Most all the players were cool, we pugged regularly with no fear, and you almost never left a group without getting to know the people better.  Overall the community was great, and people went out of their way to help others.

So today's games for the most part offer significantly more solo content than the early group centric games, are more accessible than ever, yet most will agree the communities are for sh!t.

So where really does the problem lie?

Like one early poster said...I thnk it lies with the OP and those like him.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by jusomdude

I actually agree with the OP and it's the reason why I am seriously thinking about quitting MMOs alltogether. The amount of miscreants is out of hand, and I admit, the games have even affected my behavior a little bit. Online games really shouldn't be about feeling superior to others, they should be about enjoying social time with others, no matter how you are doing it in the game.

 

And I read the OP's posts and think, how can someone come to such incorrect conclusions?

Back in the early days of DAOC, you pretty much had to group to effectively level, esp if you were a support class or healer.

Couple that with game mechanics that had down time, people camping mob spawns etc and I had some of th best times in online gaming.

Most all the players were cool, we pugged regularly with no fear, and you almost never left a group without getting to know the people better.  Overall the community was great, and people went out of their way to help others.

So today's games for the most part offer significantly more solo content than the early group centric games, are more accessible than ever, yet most will agree the communities are for sh!t.

So where really does the problem lie?

Like one early poster said...I thnk it lies with the OP and those like him.

 

I essentially started playing MMOs with DAoC and remember having some fun in it but I also remembering soloing a lot. By no means was it required to group. I do remember people being more courteous back then, but I can also remember the people that had no regard for others other than what others could provide for them.
 

I have no doubt current  MMO design, or even MMOs from the beginning breeds even greater "ME" mentality than real life. No, it doesn't effect everyone, but I can see how it could totally consume someone who doesn't have a sensible set of values in the first place.

Originally posted by Cristina1

Originally posted by raykor

Generalize much?

 

whats wrong with generalization? groups are characterized by majority.

Not only do you not know that the majority of x gamers who play with y playstyle are "socially inept", calling the whole group that when certaintly not all of them are, is ignorant. Generalizing is often times a good way to sound ignorant actually, if that's what you're into. Honeslty I can't believe you even said that, unless you were kidding, but it doesn't look like it.

Edit: As pertaining to the topic itself. The ultimate irony about this whole thing is the OP mentions modern MMOs being filled with the socially inept (or however he puts it) yet modern MMOs are the most solo-friendly MMOs to date...but he seems to think more solo options in MMOs would solve the problem? I mean, where's the logic in that? I'm sure this has been brought up already but I just felt the need to mention it.

Originally posted by Meleagar

This is why they have such an inapprorpiate, hostile reaction to such reasonable suggestions as equal rewards for equal solo effort,

This, this right here shows the root problem of the rabid soloist. You are basically trying to claim that a soloist deserves equal rewards compared to an entire group of players over the same time period and yet fail to see what is wrong with that idea and why it utterly kills group play.

At bare minimum, a six player group for example "deserves" SIX TIMES the reward of a soloist for the same time spent working together - arguably they deserve more because of the logisitical, coordination and cooperative difficulties of grouping.

That is the fundamental problem right there, people like the OP are basically frustrated power gamers. They *must* get all the same toys and get all the same rewards as people who have more time to play than they do. They are incapable of simply sitting back and enjoying the game (or deciding that it is not for them, due to excessive time requirements). They are compelled to sit back and whine about how they "deserve" access to all the same content, all the while hurling insults and generalizations at anyone who accomplishes more than they do.

Should games have solo content? Heck yeah, but not all of it should be soloable and the best rewards should be very very diffcult or time consuming for a soloist to get. (And yes, I say that knowing that I will not get to much of that content in many games, precisely because I am not that hardcore and like to solo...but if playing the game is fun, I don't feel obligated to compete with the neighbors constantly to see who is the "best")

Thread should title read - Waaahhhh, -I- have no life, everything is hard and should be easy and handed to me, wahhhhhhh.

The irony here is that you claim these people have no lives, then write this whole complaint essay on why they have no lives.

Not all MMO's are created equal. - Quote me on that.

Some are hardcore, some are not. Some require grouping, some do not. Some hand you everything for very little work, some do not.

What you want is a game where you can do absolutely everything by yourself and then be able to reap massive rewards for little effort. What you're describing are single-player games, which already exist. If I want to feel like a demi-god snowflake goku-esque little angry "AAHHHHH!" to power up hero then I'll play a single player game.

The point of MMO's was that you weren't a snowflake demi-god, just an adventurer striking out in the world. Think back to D&D which even if, like me, you've never played you still understand the concept. When you make a character you're just an adventurer who happens to experience a grand story. The results of that story may make you somewhat of a legend, but you didn't start off as some destined snow-flake demi-god Ichigo mystery screaming power-up- guy, just a guy. That doesn't mean you're not a 'hero', you're just the hero of -your- story.

People seem to not understand this concept which the mmo industry was founded on. Just because you're no Luke Skywalker doesn't mean you can't experience an epic story of your own - key words: OF YOUR OWN. When a game is made and you start off as some destined hero or some bs it stops being a story of your doing and becomes you living out someone else's doings. Maybe I don't want to be a -DESTINED- hero? Maybe I just want to be a bright-eyed adventurer who meets some friends along the way. If we happen to get the ambition to do something great, awesome, good for us. I don't need someone else's story to pat my head and tell me I'm special, because if every other adventurer you see is a prophecized special snowflake, then none of us are.

Let me put it this way: If we're all Luke Skywalker, then who gets credit for blowing up the death star?

If one person can just solo everything then what was the point to making an MMO in the first place? What makes it worthwhile to pay any sort monthly fee? How are you going to make PvP work? All PvP's are just 1v1's? Well that'd be about as fun as watching paint dry. What sort of guild system would you have? Would you even bother to put a guild system in? Well you can't have any group content in the game because if you did you'd have to provide worthwhile rewards and the solo people would bitch.

Why not just let everybody be able to own a castle and a town? Everyone is a king/queen, yay! Oh wait....

Newsflash: You can't solo life.

One last blurb: Let's say you have two hours to play a game and I have two hours to play the same game. I happen to actually have friends that I play with, you apparantly don't. I can find a group within five minutes and go do something, -maybe- you can't find some people you don't know to group with.

So in that two hours let's say a group or a solo person can clear a really big top-end instance unless they suck terribly.

So we have equal time, but my time requires coordinating with other people while I play, yours doesn't because you're antisocial or whatever. So what you're saying is that if we spend equal time, you should get the same rewards, right?

Well, we're both spending two hours in game. Why should you get the same rewards when my time investment is more difficult? What you REALLY want is to punish people who actually have friends. Time in game has nothing to do with it.

Two ridiculous notions in these forums have been beaten to death-- the subject of this thread and the idea of offline advancement. Therefore, I shall introduce a new ridiculous notion.

Why do we have to log into the game all the time? Why can't I play my solo MMO (while not actually playing, of course) when my internet is down for whatever reason? I think companies like Blizzard and SOE take advantage of people with always-up internet connections and totally piss on us who sometimes experience downtime due to line maintenence or weather issues. This is totally unacceptable! I pay the same subscription rates as everyone else! 

In fact, why do I have to have a computer? I should be able to play this game on my microwave. Not only is it unfair, but it's RASCIST!!!!! 

I got the impression that the communities are the way they are is because people are too concered with trying to achieve something or only see what the game has to offer them and because this they don't bother to socialize or play just to have fun like they(communities) used to be.

Originally posted by Meleagar

They're clueless as to what real community is about, and why people - good, socially adept people - will group up and even raid for no other reason than to have a good tme together, whether or not it brigns them exclusive, superior rewards. They'll group up for in-game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons, and then all run naked to fight the biggest dragon around ... not because it's going to get them any gear ... but because it's fun.

Who are you to tell me what I think is fun?  Maybe grouping for in game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons is fun to you, but to me it's a waste of time.  I don't think running naked to fight "the biggest dragon around" is fun either.  But we can argue all day and night about what is fun to you and what is fun to me.

You see, people who function well in a community aren't about trying to exclude others from rewards; they're about helping everyone get them, because real community isn't about who has what gear (and who doesn't); real community is about who has the best stories, the best sense of humor, or the best attitude.  People who have good social skills advocate for equal rewards; they don't advocate that people be deliberately excluded just so a few can feel superior.

I find that to be extremely funny.

This is why MMOG communities currently suck; they attract socially inept people that come to such games to force others to have to accept them in their groups and guilds, because they are designed so that only the most socially inept and disconnected people can achieve the highest rewards.  The less time you spend in real life relationships... the bigger and badder you will be online.

All-in-all I agree with you, but I don't like some of the points you made.  You turned your definition of fun into what everyone's definition of fun should be.  You also stated that good social skills = advocating for equal rewards.  Those two things do not go hand-in-hand with each other.  Hell...Hitler had good social skills but he sure as hell didn't advocate for equal rewards.  Other than those two things I feel you are spot on.  The MMO community isn't what it used to be.  When all the middle school and high school "cool kids" started playing the whole community went to hell in a hand basket.  Here's hoping for maturity to kick in.

 

-Thafireball