After reading several players comment about how no  one would group in a game unless they were forced by goals or mechanics to do so, I realized the sad truth about modern MMOGs; they're largely programmed and populated by social misfits and outcasts whose only hope of being accepted or admired by a group is if grouping is forced on everyone.  In other words, the casuals - those with lives outside the game - are forced to group up with the internet game junkies and addicts if they want to achieve the higher rewards; in fact, the casuals have to become like those junkies and addicts if they ever want to see top game content.

This is why they have such an inapprorpiate, hostile reaction to such reasonable suggestions as equal rewards for equal solo effort, and offline advancement systems, ranting and raving if even one such game is considered; if such games are made, then casuals will flock to them and abandon the misfits, leaving them no one to feel superior to, and offering them no solace from their social ineptitude by being the targets of their ridicule and condescension (see: psychological transferrance).

This is why current MMOG communities suck; they are built on the dynamic of rewarding those who are the least socially skilled the the most socially problematic in real life, those who believe that "community" is based solely on how your specific "build" can be used by the guild for everyone to get what they want. That's what these people believe "community"is about; what you can offer them as a function of end-game rewards.

They're clueless as to what real community is about, and why people - good, socially adept people - will group up and even raid for no other reason than to have a good tme together, whether or not it brigns them exclusive, superior rewards. They'll group up for in-game beer drinking contests and dance-a-thons, and then all run naked to fight the biggest dragon around ... not because it's going to get them any gear ... but because it's fun.

You see, people who function well in a community aren't about trying to exclude others from rewards; they're about helping everyone get them, because real community isn't about who has what gear (and who doesn't); real community is about who has the best stories, the best sense of humor, or the best attitude.  People who have good social skills advocate for equal rewards; they don't advocate that people be deliberately excluded just so a few can feel superior.

This is why MMOG communities currently suck; they attract socially inept people that come to such games to force others to have to accept them in their groups and guilds, because they are designed so that only the most socially inept and disconnected people can achieve the highest rewards.  The less time you spend in real life relationships... the bigger and badder you will be online.

Build a game dedicated to the casual gamer through equal solo rewards and offline character development, and I guarantee you'll see a much better, well-adjusted and thriving community - a real community, not just guilds of users stepping over everyone to get their next piece of gear. 

Judging by your post, you're the problem.

I don't see it that way at all. I see it exactly like a football game. It's a team based game. I like team based games. I don't think playing football, basketball, soccer or any other team based game is a bunch of misfits "forced" to play with one another.

It's all people that like to play a team based game.

I like solo games. I loved playing Fallout 3. I hate playing MMORPGs solo, because the content sucks compared to something like Fallout 3.

I love playing in groups in MMORPGs because not only do I like single player games like Fallout 3, I also like team based games.

Why does liking team based games make me a misfit that wants to force anything on anyone? Is everyone that plays soccer, football, or basketball misfits that force people to group with them?

I don't think so. The game just isn't the game without a team. You got to pass the ball, and that's what makes it fun. In an MMORPG, you got to group so the party can become a team and be much greater than the sum of the parts. That's what makes it fun, IMO.

I dont' care if you never play the same game I do, and certainly don't want to force you to joing a basketball team, a soccer team, a football team, or play a group friendly MMORPG.

If it's equal rewards for solo play, it's not a team based game any more. I can score points on the basketball court all by myself, I can run a touch down all by myself, I can score a goal in soccer all by myself, I can do the MMORPG content all by myself. You might enjoy that, but it's not a team based game anymore.

the problem with your whole idea is that you assume all the people who want forced group content are socially inept.  that sweeping generalization is completely wrong.  its like saying everyone who likes vanilla icecream has an IQ below 90.  you can't attach personal preferance to what a person is like, because their choice on what to like about a single thing might have nothing to do with anything else.

this sounds kinda tin-foil hat-ish to me.  all the social outcasts are out to get the "normal" people and ruin their games.

While that was a bit ranty I mostly agree. However I don't think your answer to the problem is the solution. The exact opposite actually. Forcing people to group together and *stay* together for a longer period of time is what is missing in most MMOs.

I think there is a reason many people will tell you (myself included) that FFXI had the best community in any MMO they have ever played. It's because we had to count on eachother and spend time together. In order to even progress we needed eachother. And after awhile you'd get to know the people even those that weren't in your guilds ect.

Also we had to *stay* together. I think this is the key. Fighting, killing, and leveling was slower in FFXI and could take hours.  Since most players needed a group, you would get to know the players through out the day.

In more recent MMOs you would group together just to do an instance or killing a tough mob for a quest or whatever. You  are hardly together long enough to make a connection and get to know one another.

Originally posted by Majinash

the problem with your whole idea is that you assume all the people who want forced group content are socially inept.  that sweeping generalization is completely wrong.  its like saying everyone who likes vanilla icecream has an IQ below 90.  you can't attach personal preferance to what a person is like, because their choice on what to like about a single thing might have nothing to do with anything else.

 

this sounds kinda tin-foil hat-ish to me.  all the social outcasts are out to get the "normal" people and ruin their games.

I think it would be quite the opposite. The socially inept do not thrive in a group based game. That was the deal with the original EQ. If you were an asshole, word would get around, and no one would group with you, and you were screwed.

Help me get my corpse?

Uh, aren't you the guy that was just a jerk to me a moment ago? Get it yourself!

You don't make it very long in a grouping game if you are socially inept.

Generalize much?

Originally posted by natuxatu

While that was a bit ranty I mostly agree. However I don't think your answer to the problem is the solution. The exact opposite actually. Forcing people to group together and *stay* together for a longer period of time is what is missing in most MMOs.

I think there is a reason many people will tell you (myself included) that FFXI had the best community in any MMO they have ever played. It's because we had to count on eachother and spend time together. In order to even progress we needed eachother. And after awhile you'd get to know the people even those that weren't in your guilds ect.

Also we had to *stay* together. I think this is the key. Fighting, killing, and leveling was slower in FFXI and could take hours.  Since most players needed a group, you would get to know the players through out the day.

In more recent MMOs you would group together just to do an instance or killing a tough mob for a quest or whatever. You  are hardly together long enough to make a connection and get to know one another.

This is correct because in FFXI we learned to get along and work together as a team. It's what mmorpgs are about, grouping to  accomplish goals together and having a good time.

Nevermind, this thread is pointless.

so basically your saying that people who want to play and group up in a game that is online/multiplayer is a social outcast?

Or heck even people who just enjoy an actual challenge in a game, is a misfit somehow?

wtf?

 If you want a solo game why are you playing an MMO? And if I'm playing an MMO I better be able to be superior to someone. We all work hard for our rare items, our money, our rare mounts, and whatever else the MMO you're playing allows for. MMO communities are exactly like real life. Why do you think people strive to have the most expensive luxuries in RL? Humans are competitve and we crave power. We want to feel like we have some sort of worth, that's why these things are so popular.

Either stop b*tching or GTFO.

<Taru>   <Dance>  <Please>  (`_`)

OP, I just can't help but think you walked straight out of the early MMO days when bragging rights and tightly knit community actually mattered, even though it may have not been as instrumental in the actual game contribution as it is today.

Basically, it's not about inept and anti-social people, it's about the general state of mind that's radically different today from the "ye old days", mainly because of the quick fix/instant gratification system that modern MMOs provide (I believe WAR tried to provide bragging rights and see how that turned out) to players and, more importantly, because good old TIME IS MONEY become more and more evident as the genre evolved. Casuals make up most of the today's communities and it is exactly becase of THAT they want to make up the most of their play time, unlike the inept who live and breathe the very game they play, as you've put it. These hardcore, or however you want to kill them, are a very vocal minority in most MMos and what I'm trying to say is that you can't pin the guilt of "making the community pathetic" on just one group of game's players base, it has to be seen all together.

I have no problem if they make solo mmorpgs.

Make massive solo multiplayer online role playing games.

You don't even put the ability to group in the game. There is no group content. There is no raiding, no quests, no Mobs, no dungeons that cannot be solo'ed.

You can solo the entire game, while you chat with other people running by and soloing the entire game like you.

Fine with me. I'm not playing it, but they can certainly make them for the OP.

The only thing that makes an MMORPG challenging in the least, is grouping.

Playing an MMORPG solo is like, I don't know, watching American Idol, or counting sheep. It's mindless, and requires no effort, and it's a way to waste time rather thoughtlessly.

I think THAT is waht the solo player is looking for.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I have no problem if they make solo mmorpgs.

Make massive solo multiplayer online role playing games.

You don't even put the ability to group in the game. There is no group content. There is no raiding, no quests, no Mobs, no dungeons that cannot be solo'ed.

You can solo the entire game, while you chat with other people running by and soloing the entire game like you.

Fine with me. I'm not playing it, but they can certainly make them for the OP.

The only thing that makes an MMORPG challenging in the least, is grouping.

Playing an MMORPG solo is like, I don't know, watching American Idol, or counting sheep. It's mindless, and requires no effort, and it's a way to waste time rather thoughtlessly.

I think THAT is waht the solo player is looking for.

Exactly. What's the point? I think the suggestion of a solo MMO is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.

Originally posted by Meleagar

After reading several players comment about how no  one would group in a game unless they were forced by goals or mechanics to do so, I realized the sad truth about modern MMOGs; they're largely programmed and populated by social misfits and outcasts whose only hope of being accepted or admired by a group is if grouping is forced on everyone.  In other words, the casuals - those with lives outside the game - are forced to group up with the internet game junkies and addicts if they want to achieve the higher rewards; in fact, the casuals have to become like those junkies and addicts if they ever want to see top game content.

I HONESTLY don't understand why EVERY mmo player who doesn't act like "jesus"  is a pimply faced, nerd-raged tween who has no life and is a complete loner/outcast/misfit.

These generalizations are ridiculous. Kinda like "scammers are stupid" or "Only idiots play WoW", which are both obviously completely false.

 If everyone is going to have to exact same items from soloing by the end of the game WTF is the point? 

Solo and Team dynamics are not compatible unless ALL toons are completely and irrevocably equal......which is silly.

Take a look at WoW, When grinding no matter your class your DPS/hour is going to be similar to any other class(Barring things like Prot pld)

THAT WHAT YOU WANT?  Forced equality

I played FFXI, I loved the hell out of it. Soloability was never in the equation as it was a Group game.

I played WoW, I loved the hell out of it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to make EVERYTHING in the game elite and require a group to kill it.

Solo and Group are two different concepts that realy don't mesh well togethe.

You want Solo go play SWtoR. It's solo oriented but I'm sure it will be an awesome experience. And I am definately buying it.

You want Grouping wait for FFXIV. It will be awesome as well. And I am definately buying it.

Dont expect a decent meshing of Solo and group. it aint gonna happen. it will either be Solo, or Group or Solo with Group dungeons(WoW), that's it......no really.....QQmore.

To the OP - find a single RPG and play by yourself.

Problem solved.

Originally posted by grndzro

Dont expect a decent meshing of Solo and group. it aint gonna happen. it will either be Solo, or Group or Solo with Group dungeons(WoW), that's it......no really.....QQmore.

You can argue with the QQmore part, but the rest seems irrefutable.

I have always thought pvp really made mmo communities terrible.  Everquest and FFXI always had awesome communities and it was one of the main reasons people loved those games.  It gave people memorable journeys with friends instead of the normal "rofl newb l2p, im about 2 corpse camp this idiot".  I guess those kind of players came from fps games.  I never saw them back in the days where pvp werent quite as big in these games.  Vanguard had a really good community too so its not just the new generation of gamers, I think its the type of game.

I just dont understand your train of thought here.  The community sucks because...people want to play together?  Thats totally backwards to me.  I havent played any mmos in about a year and one huge reason is the community in most games now (also no games interest me).  With these newer gamers that never want to help eachother, they always want to do everything by themselves and be able to demolish everything without relying on others.  I dont see why you think people that want group content are elitist pimple faced nerds that push the casual gamers to the side.  In everquest those hardcore gamers who never logged off were often the most helpful people to me.  Most were thrilled to help us lowbies and once I got to higher status I liked saving newbies/giving free gear or just giving my advice to players.

 Hey, look at that! It's the "I'm right, everyone else is wrong"-topic!

With spices included such as "it's not my fault communities suck, but everyone else's!" and "everyone who doesn't agree with me sucks!"

Why do these casual soloer types always appear as so arrogant? I mean I've seen at least 3 people like that here in the time I've posted, and their general problem seems to be that they twist people's words to fit their argument (the only way to 'win' is to look down on the other side of the argument and team up to prove their point, and even then it doesn't work because they don't have anything valid to say). Plus when they can't say anything constructive, they make a thread like this to diss the opponent. 

To everyone but the OP. Thank you. I'd group with you guys any day. ;)

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

so basically your saying that people who want to play and group up in a game that is online/multiplayer is a social outcast?

Or heck even people who just enjoy an actual challenge in a game, is a misfit somehow?

wtf?

Nope, that's not what I said.  I said that a game that requires addict level hours of forced grouping to achieve the top game content (the equivalent of "winning" in an MMOG) inherently attracts people with bad social skills in real life and generates a pathetic, shallow basis for "community" in such a game.  Which is why, currently, "community" in such games is driven by have/have-not comparison, guild caste systems and min-max efficiency, and not good communication skills, fun, humor, and character  - which is what most real-life liesure time socialization entails.

Notice how you again conflated "grouping up" in such games with good community; there are many chat channels.  Good community in an MMOG has **NOTHING** whatsoever to do with having to form groups to go out and kill stuff and being willing to spend addict-level time to do so; that's not "community", that's a really bad job that good, normal people wouldn't work at if they didn't have to. MMOG "community" currently is like a bad job with immature bosses that require you to work wtih them night and day or else you fall into disfavor.

Sorry, but that kind of scenario doesn't foster, IMO, a "good" community, and it's not how I want to spend my leisure time.

Originally posted by Methos12

OP, I just can't help but think you walked straight out of the early MMO days when bragging rights and tightly knit community actually mattered, even though it may have not been as instrumental in the actual game contribution as it is today.

Basically, it's not about inept and anti-social people, it's about the general state of mind that's radically different today from the "ye old days", mainly because of the quick fix/instant gratification system that modern MMOs provide (I believe WAR tried to provide bragging rights and see how that turned out) to players and, more importantly, because good old TIME IS MONEY become more and more evident as the genre evolved. Casuals make up most of the today's communities and it is exactly becase of THAT they want to make up the most of their play time, unlike the inept who live and breathe the very game they play, as you've put it. These hardcore, or however you want to kill them, are a very vocal minority in most MMos and what I'm trying to say is that you can't pin the guilt of "making the community pathetic" on just one group of game's players base, it has to be seen all together.

If you read my O.P. again, you'll see that I 'm not pinning the blame on any group other than the developers.  By the way these games are structured, they cannot help but attract certain people, and repel others. It is the game design that acts as a filtering process; the first filter is (1) how much time and effort are you willing to commit to the game?  This is obviously a filter that attracts real-life people who have - generally - poor social skills, or a skewed sense of values to begin with.  It attracts people that want to develop their sense of self-worth in the game, through their avatar, and repels people who view the game simply as a liesure-time activity where friends  hang out now and then.  When you advocate that soloers or casuals should not be able to get equal rewards (in a GAME) so that your forced-grouping, addict-level commitments are exclusively rewarded, you are obviously trying to gain some missing sense of satisfaction or self-worth through your on-screen avatar not available to you in real life.

Note how many of the posters on these boards go on and on about "earning" top rewards, and compare these games to professions in real life, like professional sports or a job.  MMOGs currently are designed to attract people that view their online life this way. People that have real-life, satisfying jobs and relationships aren't interested in a second job that they have to pay to participate in; only people - generally - that lack such real life satisfactions will **pay** to force others to group with them while spending addict-level hours achieving virtual rewards. It's obvious that MMOGs today are set up like bad jobs where the least-socially adept in real life get to be lords of the virtual realm and "be the boss" or the big man in-game only because of the incredible number of hours they invest; others have to suffer their company (and come on, we've all been in those groups and raids), bad behavior, rude comments, and greedy tantrums to get to experience the top content in such games.

The structure of the game establishes the kind of player that is going to play; the kind of players you have dictated what the community is going to be like.  Do advocates of equal reward access and equal character development for casuals and soloers make for better communities than those that insist that only forced grouping and addict-level investments of time and effort should gain top rewards and content?  Does game-designed forced min-maxing of talents, gear and time make for better communities?

You're right in that the way games are designed now, even the casuals that play are pressured to invest their time in-game in a min-max mentality.  They don't have the time to "socialize" (real socializtion) because their time is limited and if they don't "get to work", they'll never advance at all.  Once again, the structure of the game is drawing in only those casuals that are willing to play that way, willing to give up the social aspects for the job-like effort while they are in-game. 

If an MMOG was structured so that ALL characters advanced at the same general rate, and character development was wide-open and deep as well as linear - a matter of stratgically choosing what paths to train down, and how long, in order to gain skills and stats and professions - then the entire social dynamic is changed because there is an entirely different kind of player attracted to the game.  If there is no intense class balancing for group  and raid end-game encounters, but an entirely different kind of reward system put in that doesn't require grouping or addict-levels of invested time, once again an entirely different kind of player can be attracted to the game - players where feeling superior to others is not their primary consideration.

IF as a casual player I was in such a game, since my player is advancing **anyway**, I feel no pressure to min-max my efforts.  I'm free to casually hang around or go out and help other players do things **FOR FUN** and not ** FOR REWARD**. If other players get the good loot that time, what do I care? I'm HAPPY FOR THEM, not jealous or envious, because I know that eventually I'll get something as good. These games now are designed for, and breed, jealousy and envy as motivating mechanisms.

Does that make for "good communities"?