Any mmo's with good balancing? Almost every thread you read about have someone somehwere saying what TERRIBLE balancing it has.

Eve, UO, Star Wars pre NGE.. there are others.  Because none of them have classes.  Classes were invented by the D&D people, no one else.   All the great fantasy books don't have classes. 

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Eve, UO, Star Wars pre NGE.. there are others.  Because none of them have classes.  Classes were invented by the D&D people, no one else.   All the great fantasy books don't have classes. 

not true....

SWG was horribly imbalanced.....Melee was HORRIBLY imbalanced (TKM/Swordsman/Fencer) were the I WIN BUTTONS for a huge amount of time, then the mind wars (sniper/cm) ruled supreme.

anarchy online has very good class balancing. not much to say on that subject, but the classes are very well balanced. they're just suited to different styles of gameplay.

Define "balance".

Most games have balanced classes. Simply every class has it strengths and weakness.

Also people (usually noobs, idiotas and of that sort) who play games and often lose in pvp or just see someone doing something better will scream that classes isnt balanced even though it is their fault they lose. Yes I agree there sometimes overpowered classes but game devs usually fix them.

Another thing is what balance you mean? You want any class be able to kill another? Or looking for usual: archers kill mages, mages kill warriors, warriors kill archers type? Or maybe some sort of other balance?

I pay much attention to balance when I play games and I think the best I've seen yet is in Guild Wars. It ain't perfect but it sure comes close. It would be incredibly naive to say that a game X has "perfect" balance. It's also easy to test out other people's builds because you can roll a lvl20(max lvl) PvP character at any time.

Balance is not so important in PvE games as proven by D&D.

Well, Vanguard definitely has good class balancing. Note however it is a PvE game.

In a PvP game, getting a good class balance is a tad problematic. Its getting easier if you go for Group PvP, but single classes are a nightmare to balance for each other.

For example healers. In my first MMO, Lineage 2, healers where pushovers. No defense, no offense, and what they had in healing was not compensateable.

In my second MMO, Vanguard, healers are solo kings and rulers of PvP. Thats because they arent as good as others, but are getting like 60% or more of the defense and offense of others, plus their healing.

Games with fewer classes tend to have better balance, LotR was a good example before they added two classes for no reason.

But class issues tend to come and go, but will you still be playing in 3-6 months time once it is remedied?

The Chinese version of Aion Online actually has very well balanced classes. As soon as the North American version catches up (2 patches to go) I'm sure it will have excellent balance as well.

Originally posted by RandomSanity

The Chinese version of Aion Online actually has very well balanced classes. As soon as the North American version catches up (2 patches to go) I'm sure it will have excellent balance as well.

Group balanced, though, 1v1 still has some rough corners to polish even in 1.2, but the good thing is that every class has their role in group PvE and in group PvP and all of them are certainly useful.

If you want balance play a FPS.

The quest for "balance" has killed many games and specifically SWG.

Good MMO have always had UNbalance.

You were forced to group to balance it out.

The current attitude of trying to balance each and every class hurts games tremendously.

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Originally posted by Valeran
If you want balance play a FPS.
The quest for "balance" has killed many games and specifically SWG.

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Not sure what alternate dimension you come from to think all FPSes are magically balanced. :P Every FPS has different weapons. The better FPSes have different roles to play, and some even have asymetrical sides (Quake Wars).

More on topic, I always considred late-Burning Crusade WOW to have particularly solid class balance -- but it's probably colored by the fact that all three specs of the class I played (shaman) were finally viable in PVE, where I spent most of my time.

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

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Originally posted by Valeran
If you want balance play a FPS.
The quest for "balance" has killed many games and specifically SWG.

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Not sure what alternate dimension you come from to think all FPSes are magically balanced. :P Every FPS has different weapons. The better FPSes have different roles to play, and some even have asymetrical sides (Quake Wars).

More on topic, I always considred late-Burning Crusade WOW to have particularly solid class balance -- but it's probably colored by the fact that all three specs of the class I played (shaman) were finally viable in PVE, where I spent most of my time.

pretty sure I didn't say all.

Atlantica Online has the most ballenced classes ever. Since it is a turnbased game you all have the same stats and everything. Its the fairest game out there. Id check it out.

What is Atlantica Online? It is a fast growing, fast paced, MMORPG turn based game that requires alot of stratagy and planning.

Asheron's Call has no class-  you choose from there.  they have plenty choice what u prefer and they all pretty balanced skill damage and sort.

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.

Great Group PvE balance, every class has its pros and cons. Also great raid balance; all classes wanted for raids.

Not very balanced for Solo PvE though, and PvP balance is quite frankly nonexistent.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Eve, UO, Star Wars pre NGE.. there are others.  Because none of them have classes.  Classes were invented by the D&D people, no one else.   All the great fantasy books don't have classes. 

If you have no classes, exactly the same problem appears with skills. One skill will be too strong and the other to weak.

And in my experience, having no skills just means players make up their own, and thanks to the limits of skillbased systems end up with less classes than classbased games.

Only solution is to not have skills either. Thats when you end being a roleplaying game.

Originally posted by Adamantine

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Eve, UO, Star Wars pre NGE.. there are others.  Because none of them have classes.  Classes were invented by the D&D people, no one else.   All the great fantasy books don't have classes. 

If you have no classes, exactly the same problem appears with skills. One skill will be too strong and the other to weak.

And in my experience, having no skills just means players make up their own, and thanks to the limits of skillbased systems end up with less classes than classbased games.

Only solution is to not have skills either. Thats when you end being a roleplaying game.

 

Generally speaking, with no classes players graviate towards a few specific "optimal" builds...until the developers nerf the skills that make them OP'd.

And point of order, while they might not be called 'classes', EVE definitely clearly defines roles for each ship type, and you have somewhat traditional roles such as Tanks, DPS'ers, Healers, Buffers, Crowd Control, Scouts etc.

And like most MMO's one vs one, each ship has advantages and disadvantages, and there is no single ship that wins every time in every situation. Balance is only achieved in group fighting, typical of most other MMO's.

I think the bottom line is that the idea of having classes or skills is the idea of having differences.

And once you have differences, you will have advantages and disadvantages in different situations.

Therefore there cant be a perfect balance.

And even IF there would be a game which has classes and skills and is still perfectly balanced, nobody would know it, because the less skilled players will always claim the better skilled players have the overpowered class, the overpowered gear, the better ping, the whatever.

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Originally posted by Adamantine
I think the bottom line is that the idea of having classes or skills is the idea of having differences.
And once you have differences, you will have advantages and disadvantages in different situations.
Therefore there cant be a perfect balance.
And even IF there would be a game which has classes and skills and is still perfectly balanced, nobody would know it, because the less skilled players will always claim the better skilled players have the overpowered class, the overpowered gear, the better ping, the whatever.

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Yeah, it's very true that in a game which was perfectly balanced bad players would still complain. Hence the statement I hear the WAR devs make now and then which goes something like, "We'll know the game is balanced when players of each class are complaining equally." WAR balance commentary aside, it's a fairly true statement. :P

To balance the "perfect balance can never be achieved" side of the conversation, I find it necessary to point out that the rules variations (asymmetry) which creates those imbalances is part of what makes the most interesting games.

Checkers is almost entirely symmetrical, since both sides start with the same pieces and each individual piece has the same capabilities. But it's a pretty simple game and not that interesting.

Chess has symmetrical sides, but asymmetrical pieces, which makes things much more interesting due to the varied rules each piece obeys.

Lord of the Rings The Confrontation has asymmetrical sides and asymmetrical pieces, yet manages to cut a pretty close balance between the Good and Dark sides. It's sort of like Stratego with a smaller game board and more interesting special powers.

I'd concede that Confrontation is actually less deep a game than Chess, but asymmetry still has a very strong appeal for me. Which is apparent in the types of games I play most often (teamplay-based games where players play different roles, usually MMORPGs and FPSes.)

Originally posted by kmogusar

anarchy online has very good class balancing. not much to say on that subject, but the classes are very well balanced. they're just suited to different styles of gameplay.

Word. Which is why I plan on going back. It's not always about class and level (although they play a large part), but also about how well you planned ahead and researched how you want to build your character, calculating how to squeeze out that extra point to equip your new nanos or weapons or armor. It's not just one class tanks, one class DDs, one class nukes, one class heals, there's a good mix. Sure there are primaries for those roles, but they can be filled differently in a balancing way.

Originally posted by Azzthuras

Atlantica Online has the most ballenced classes ever.

Did you even play this game? PvP is horribly unbalanced, forcing you to play with very specific build types and items. The only reason your main characters class type wasn't a huge issue is because you have 8 other mercs to balance things out with. Heck, even that doesn't prevent main classes like the cannoneer from being almost completely worthless.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Eve, UO, Star Wars pre NGE.. there are others.  Because none of them have classes.  Classes were invented by the D&D people, no one else.   All the great fantasy books don't have classes. 

As many other have said this post is weakz.

Most fantasy books have classes. i say WOT is great there are classes (kinda), LOTR has classes, almost all fantasy books have clear guidlines that could create a "class".

I personally, think if your playign any mmo with balanced classes then thats a bad game, why becuase mmos should be about grouping together to use each memebers strengths to proctect other groupmemebers weaknesses. Class mmos: Best done in DAOC, some classes maybe underpowered but most were very balanced at the end of the day. Like the cery solo friendly classes were not great in groups (not bad, but the super class system of classic really balanced the game groupwise, which is all that mattered).

I think Eve as a non class game is balanced.