Just wanted to pass this on to hopefully change some opinions had about Darkfall. Let me just say I applaud the developers for trying something besides playing the me-too game with World of Warcraft.

Link

The other threat to publishers with different approaches is an increased "expectation standard" then is formed and all future content has to match or exceed it. This is often very hard to roll back.

This is why many publishers involve themselves mostly in restricting content rather then expanding it. This is universally true is just about all industries as well.

Also, there is the "we dont need publishers" affect which is a big concern. So its three issues all in all:

1. afraid to make risks

2. do not want to raise the required expectations of the end users

3. (and this is the worst nightmare). If a game succeeds without publishers, that can create a new world for consumers the publishers would perfer them not to see, a world without them.
 

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The other threat to publishers with different approaches is an increased "expectation standard" then is formed and all future content has to match or exceed it. This is often very hard to roll back.

This is why many publishers involve themselves mostly in restricting content rather then expanding it. This is universally true is just about all industries as well.

Also, there is the "we dont need publishers" affect which is a big concern. So its three issues all in all:

1. afraid to make risks

2. do not want to raise the required expectations of the end users

3. (and this is the worst nightmare). If a game succeeds without publishers, that can create a new world for consumers the publishers would perfer them not to see, a world without them.
 

What does this statement have to do with this thread?

The thread is about a company that is trying to make a game that is different. You talk about publishers or not about publishers? Sorry didn't understand your thinking. Can you clarify please?

Originally posted by briboi

Just wanted to pass this on to hopefully change some opinions had about Darkfall. Let me just say I applaud the developers for trying something besides playing the me-too game with World of Warcraft.

Link

 

 

 

 Well, it's hard to see how a complete fluff piece article is going to change anyone's mind.

That article completely avoided any of the multiple problems with DF and it's development company, AV.

"In the MMORPG world, it seems to be the norm to make your game as accessible as possible. Follow the herd. Risks are bad for business. And why do anything different? Time and again, it works. Players seem to enjoy the formula. To most MMORPG producers, the path to success lies in simply taking the standard formula, adding their particular twist to it, and releasing the game as somehow new and exciting.

But then, every so often, you get a game which takes the tried and true method, laughs at it, pushes it over, and stomps its head into the ground. Darkfall, by indie publisher Aventurine, is just such a game. Regardless of whether or not the game succeeds, Aventurine is worthy of praise if for no other reason than having the audacity to do something different. "

 Ok, all praise to Aventurine for making something different.  I, and probably many others are not going to buy it or risk time and money on a game that seems to be still a paid beta, but ALL Praise Aventurine

Lol the picture above could b 5 fat ladies and 1 pretty one,

Anyone can spin it the way they like, thats how you see it, and the other way is how I see it, define opinion? Dam elementary schools not teaching crap these day eh?

Originally posted by elderotter

"In the MMORPG world, it seems to be the norm to make your game as accessible as possible. Follow the herd. Risks are bad for business. And why do anything different? Time and again, it works. Players seem to enjoy the formula. To most MMORPG producers, the path to success lies in simply taking the standard formula, adding their particular twist to it, and releasing the game as somehow new and exciting.

But then, every so often, you get a game which takes the tried and true method, laughs at it, pushes it over, and stomps its head into the ground. Darkfall, by indie publisher Aventurine, is just such a game. Regardless of whether or not the game succeeds, Aventurine is worthy of praise if for no other reason than having the audacity to do something different. "

 Ok, all praise to Aventurine for making something different.  I, and probably many others are not going to buy it or risk time and money on a game that seems to be still a paid beta, but ALL Praise Aventurine

 

 

 

I wouldn’t go as far as to praise AV but I will say this in addition to what I have already added.

1. Publisher’s mission in life is to maximize profits with as little content as possible. If they are a publicly traded company then its even more of an issue because at that point they are legally obligated to consider the needs of the shareholders first. This mean profits each quarter are restricted when it comes to re-investments because of the risks involved in affecting the current stock price.
2. Publishers have a great history of nearly being successful in never allowing Led Zeppelin or Monty Python to ever have air play in the United States.

Publishers = bad
 

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I wouldn’t go as far as to praise AV but I will say this in addition to what I have already added.

1. Publisher’s mission in life is to maximize profits with as little content as possible. If they are a publicly traded company then its even more of an issue because at that point they are legally obligated to consider the needs of the shareholders first. This mean profits each quarter are restricted when it comes to re-investments because of the risks involved in affecting the current stock price.
2. Publishers have a great history of nearly being successful in never allowing Led Zeppelin or Monty Python to ever have air play in the United States.

Publishers = bad
 

This has already been discussed in the thread www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/242761 (starting around page 5). Just to save having the same discussion over and over again.

Originally posted by briboi

Just wanted to pass this on to hopefully change some opinions had about Darkfall. Let me just say I applaud the developers for trying something besides playing the me-too game with World of Warcraft.

Link

 

 

 

Design philosophy and implamentation are TWO very distinct things.

Nobody is saying Aventurine didn't have a great idea, we are saying Aventurine knew they were not capable of providing it and worse yet, didn't have the experience or competence to even make a beginner mmorpg.

As $12 million bucks later, we are left with an extremely amature mmorpg, that even Asian free-2-play mmo offer greater quality, polish and code.  Darkfall is very shoddy game, bording on being a scam. The fact that Tasos knows this, but sold or passed the game off to investors as more than what it is (for personal gain)...  upsets a community that thought they got rid of shysters like this.

Darkfall has not built upon any of the succeses or game features that brought people here in the first place.  It is more than obvious that Tasos was not a gamer, had very little knowledge of past features and mechanics and just pieced sh!t together as he went.

Any veteran gamer can tell you that the game's mechanics are all rudemntary and amature. The is nothing complex under the hood and the reason the game is so shallow. Newbies can't see this, because they cannot piece the skill tree in their head and understand how it's fake, etc.

Darkfall is a flop, because Tasos Flambouras is inept. Had another company made this game, it would probably be a mild success, not a complete flop!

l the while keeping them a secret. Therefore, when it came time to dropping the NDA, Darkfall was just a shell

Originally posted by Phelcher

Originally posted by briboi

Just wanted to pass this on to hopefully change some opinions had about Darkfall. Let me just say I applaud the developers for trying something besides playing the me-too game with World of Warcraft.

Link

 

 

 

 

Design philosophy and implamentation are TWO very distinct things.

 

Nobody is saying Aventurine didn't have a great idea, we are saying Aventurine knew they were not capable of providing it and worse yet, didn't have the experience or competence to even make a beginner mmorpg.

As $12 million bucks later, we are left with an extremely amature mmorpg, that even Asian free-2-play mmo offer greater quality, polish and code.  Darkfall is very shoddy game, bording on being a scam. The fact that Tasos knows this, but sold or passed the game off to investors as more than what it is (for personal gain)...  upsets a community that thought they got rid of shysters like this.

Darkfall has not built upon any of the succeses or game features that brought people here in the first place.  It is more than obvious that Tasos was not a gamer, had very little knowledge of past features and mechanics and just pieced sh!t together as he went.

Any veteran gamer can tell you that the game's mechanics are all rudemntary and amature. The is nothing complex under the hood and the reason the game is so shallow. Newbies can't see this, because they cannot piece the skill tree in their head and understand how it's fake, etc.

 

Darkfall is a flop, because Tasos Flambouras is inept. Had another company mad this game, it would probably be a mild suscces, not a complete flop!

 

 

l the while keeping them a secret. Therefore, when it came time to dropping the NDA, Darkfall was just a shell

Although it surprises me all the time people still are not fully aware of the fact that ideas are cheap. Implementation is not.

He is not refering to the "idea" he is refering to the implementation of the idea. You might not agree that the implementation is not great or different but you do need to get clarified a bit there

There is nothing unique or different in darkfall. Its just a Gen one done with out the lessons of that generation, or any other. Its like they took all the features that were eventually patched out of gen one MMO, and are touring them as features.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

 

 

I wouldn’t go as far as to praise AV but I will say this in addition to what I have already added.

1. Publisher’s mission in life is to maximize profits with as little content as possible. If they are a publicly traded company then its even more of an issue because at that point they are legally obligated to consider the needs of the shareholders first. This mean profits each quarter are restricted when it comes to re-investments because of the risks involved in affecting the current stock price.
2. Publishers have a great history of nearly being successful in never allowing Led Zeppelin or Monty Python to ever have air play in the United States.

Publishers = bad
 

What the frak are you going on about?   This is a thread about a company daring to do something different.  You are going on about publishers...(with a lot of incorrect information, I might add). 

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The other threat to publishers with different approaches is an increased "expectation standard" then is formed and all future content has to match or exceed it. This is often very hard to roll back.

This is why many publishers involve themselves mostly in restricting content rather then expanding it. This is universally true is just about all industries as well.

Also, there is the "we dont need publishers" affect which is a big concern. So its three issues all in all:

1. afraid to make risks

2. do not want to raise the required expectations of the end users

3. (and this is the worst nightmare). If a game succeeds without publishers, that can create a new world for consumers the publishers would perfer them not to see, a world without them.
 

Last week you openly admitted that you didn't actually know what a publisher's role was, so why would you expect anyone to take your word about this subject seriously?

This is a genuine question, the help you recieved when you asked for help about what a publisher did was given by people who had years of experience in the subject, they told you over and over again the role of a publisher.

Now you are the guy to tell us about publishers? Every single point you have made (1 - 3) is 100% wrong and an amazing generalisation.

The game industry, like many many others thrive on good publishers working closely with talented creative people to provide a retail outlet.

Stop talking about things like a self appointed expert on a subject that you yourself admitted to knowing nothing about just a few days ago. You are among big boys here Sean, maybe even some of us have insider knowledge on how publishing works ;)

Good Publishers don't touch bad games...   If Aventurine has spent the last 4 months shopping a publisher for the NA market, perhaps it's because most (if not all) have found the game to be total crap.

Originally posted by Phelcher

 

Good Publishers don't touch bad games...   If Aventurine has spent the last 4 months shopping a publisher for the NA market, perhaps it's because most (if not all) have found the game to be total crap.

 

Bingo!

Originally posted by Euphoryk

Originally posted by Phelcher

 

Good Publishers don't touch bad games...   If Aventurine has spent the last 4 months shopping a publisher for the NA market, perhaps it's because most (if not all) have found the game to be total crap.

 

 

Bingo!

"good publishers" also didnt touch Led Zepplen or Monty Python.

Pubishers = bad.

They do NOT take risks

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Euphoryk

Originally posted by Phelcher

 

Good Publishers don't touch bad games...   If Aventurine has spent the last 4 months shopping a publisher for the NA market, perhaps it's because most (if not all) have found the game to be total crap.

 

 

Bingo!

 

"good publishers" also didnt touch Led Zepplen or Monty Python.

Pubishers = bad.

They do NOT take risks

Your right!

They don't take risks...

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Euphoryk

Originally posted by Phelcher

 

Good Publishers don't touch bad games...   If Aventurine has spent the last 4 months shopping a publisher for the NA market, perhaps it's because most (if not all) have found the game to be total crap.

 

 

Bingo!

 

"good publishers" also didnt touch Led Zepplen or Monty Python.

Pubishers = bad.

They do NOT take risks

Care to answer my points?

Because if you push me I could sure as hell beat you down on the Monty Python and Led Zep points.

Led Zep's record label, or 'publishers' never made Led Zep realease a single, they never pushed them to release a song into the charts. Ever. They ruled the world at the time, so how in hell didn't a 'good' publisher touch them?

As for Monty Python, read up on handmade films, here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HandMade_Films

People got together and believed in the films Monty Python wanted to make and put in their own money (funnily enough Led Zep put money in) to make the films a reality.

You literally chose the worse two examples, I honestly cannot think of any worse examples of 'publishers' having no faith in their artists.

To recap: Your first example had a publisher who believed in Led Zep enough to never release a single, and your second example had enough belief in it's 'publusher' to get money from many third parties.

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

There is nothing unique or different in darkfall. Its just a Gen one done with out the lessons of that generation, or any other. Its like they took all the features that were eventually patched out of gen one MMO, and are touring them as features.

so "gen one" MMOs had a full 3d world with no instances and FPS aiming, player-craftable cities, mounts, ships, vehicles and supported mass battles in multiple regions within the same game world? please do tell us more... if anything, WOW is the real gen one MMO, doesn't stop it from being by far the most successful.

this is just like your comment about how EVE fleet battles with 100s of players have never crashed or lagged.

...as informed and objective as a bible-bashing farmer from the mid-west speaking about evolution.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The other threat to publishers with different approaches is an increased "expectation standard" then is formed and all future content has to match or exceed it. This is often very hard to roll back.

This is why many publishers involve themselves mostly in restricting content rather then expanding it. This is universally true is just about all industries as well.

Also, there is the "we dont need publishers" affect which is a big concern. So its three issues all in all:

1. afraid to make risks

2. do not want to raise the required expectations of the end users

3. (and this is the worst nightmare). If a game succeeds without publishers, that can create a new world for consumers the publishers would perfer them not to see, a world without them.
 

there is also the issue that many (younger) players are so used to WOW-clone-type MMOs that they cry wildly about any game that doesn't replicate WOW-type features like predictable, easy PVE, auction houses, i-win button special attacks, etc.

Originally posted by Phelcher

Originally posted by briboi

Just wanted to pass this on to hopefully change some opinions had about Darkfall. Let me just say I applaud the developers for trying something besides playing the me-too game with World of Warcraft.

Link

 

 

 

 

Design philosophy and implamentation are TWO very distinct things.

 

Nobody is saying Aventurine didn't have a great idea, we are saying Aventurine knew they were not capable of providing it and worse yet, didn't have the experience or competence to even make a beginner mmorpg.

As $12 million bucks later, we are left with an extremely amature mmorpg, that even Asian free-2-play mmo offer greater quality, polish and code.  Darkfall is very shoddy game, bording on being a scam. The fact that Tasos knows this, but sold or passed the game off to investors as more than what it is (for personal gain)...  upsets a community that thought they got rid of shysters like this.

Darkfall has not built upon any of the succeses or game features that brought people here in the first place.  It is more than obvious that Tasos was not a gamer, had very little knowledge of past features and mechanics and just pieced sh!t together as he went.

Any veteran gamer can tell you that the game's mechanics are all rudemntary and amature. The is nothing complex under the hood and the reason the game is so shallow. Newbies can't see this, because they cannot piece the skill tree in their head and understand how it's fake, etc.

 

Darkfall is a flop, because Tasos Flambouras is inept. Had another company made this game, it would probably be a mild success, not a complete flop!

 

 

l the while keeping them a secret. Therefore, when it came time to dropping the NDA, Darkfall was just a shell

Have you actually played DF? My god man you are talking out of your ass. DF is the best MMO on the market right now, the combat system wipes away the mundane repetative shite that is EQ and its clones (WOW) and breathes fresh air in the genre.

How is the game amaturish? The launch was not great but they are an independent company. Name me one, just one game that has full twitch based combat, thousands of concurent players, no instances and actually works like DF does. There are none. Darkfall is a masterpeice of coding.

Good for you AV. Good for you for daring to be different and actually pulling it off. 

Originally posted by javac

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The other threat to publishers with different approaches is an increased "expectation standard" then is formed and all future content has to match or exceed it. This is often very hard to roll back.

This is why many publishers involve themselves mostly in restricting content rather then expanding it. This is universally true is just about all industries as well.

Also, there is the "we dont need publishers" affect which is a big concern. So its three issues all in all:

1. afraid to make risks

2. do not want to raise the required expectations of the end users

3. (and this is the worst nightmare). If a game succeeds without publishers, that can create a new world for consumers the publishers would perfer them not to see, a world without them.
 

there is also the issue that many (younger) players are so used to WOW-clone-type MMOs that they cry wildly about any game that doesn't replicate WOW-type features like predictable, easy PVE, auction houses, i-win button special attacks, etc.

 

Negative. Despite many fanboi  attempts to convince people Darkfall had some sort of meaningful PvE or crafting prior to launch I haven't heard any outcry for the game to replicate WoW features. People who like WoW play WoW and don't buy Darkfall. This is a fiction and you'd be better off talking about what the game is instead of what no one actually wants it to become. Oh and there is no easier PvE than bugged mobs so shennanigans. 

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by javac

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The other threat to publishers with different approaches is an increased "expectation standard" then is formed and all future content has to match or exceed it. This is often very hard to roll back.

This is why many publishers involve themselves mostly in restricting content rather then expanding it. This is universally true is just about all industries as well.

Also, there is the "we dont need publishers" affect which is a big concern. So its three issues all in all:

1. afraid to make risks

2. do not want to raise the required expectations of the end users

3. (and this is the worst nightmare). If a game succeeds without publishers, that can create a new world for consumers the publishers would perfer them not to see, a world without them.
 

there is also the issue that many (younger) players are so used to WOW-clone-type MMOs that they cry wildly about any game that doesn't replicate WOW-type features like predictable, easy PVE, auction houses, i-win button special attacks, etc.

 

 

Negative. Despite many fanboi  attempts to convince people Darkfall had some sort of meaningful PvE or crafting prior to launch I haven't heard any outcry for the game to replicate WoW features. People who like WoW play WoW and don't buy Darkfall. This is a fiction and you'd be better off talking about what the game is instead of what no one actually wants it to become. Oh and there is no easier PvE than bugged mobs so shennanigans. 

please explain the huge PVE outcry in DF then? and the numerous official forum polls that have shown repeatedly that over 50% of DF's playerbase came directly from WOW. of course the vast majority of WOW grindslaves aren't going to like or play DF, but there is a significant proportion of all the PVE-based MMOs that long for better PVP and a game that doesn't hold your hand so much.

by DF's standard, all uninstanced mobs in WOW are bugged because they just stand there and auto-attack back until dead.

Just gather up as many friends as you can and retruit rest and be like 30 people and you can camp people trying to level and just kill them until they quit the game. Do this enough times until there is none left on the servers and then you can start killing eachother. Hurray for balanced griefers yay!

the problem with your statement is their poor implementation and game design as a whole which just fubars anythings. They failed hardcore for something that had potential. Then they left out 95% of what they promised.