Really great stuff Sanya,

I love articles of this type. When discussions like this come up I'm reminded of

what a new social frontier 'cyberspace' continues to be.

The crux of these problems with 'freedom of self expression' is that the "freedom' comes with consequences, always.

My favorite line in the article is,

"Anonymous jerks sitting alone have to turn to other anonymous jerks sitting alone for their social behavior modification."

I've rarely seen the concept of social modelling put so well.

In the end it is not the police or GMs/CSRs that catalyze change in society, it is the society itself.

Excellent work on this one, and your whole "Underbelly" series.

WesCrag

edit: Thnx Zorvan for catching my mistake, and apologies to Sanya whom I originally identified as Dana.

Originally posted by WesCrag

Really great stuff Dana,

 

Dana didn't write the article, Sanya did.

 If you want to hear the good stuff you have to tune into glff or gooc on Elendilmer.  Those channels get crazy sometimes.  

Only the insensitive will "forget" there are real people playing a game with them in the first place, right?  Most would simply ignore a rude comment from someone like that.  Offended enough to open a  ticket?  Go right ahead, that's what they're there for. 

Not being able to distinguish genuine, malicious bigotry from thoughless comments only exasperates this sad situation.     

It does seem LoTRO has a better community on the server I play on and I find it more enjoyable to play there than many of the other games I've stopped playing because I'm sick of the crap I see people saying. It's not just curse words that get old it's the things in general so many people say and the attitudes they have.

What's sad to me is that we even have to have a filter. When you go into a public place where you know there are all kinds of people that you don't know is it not possible to act civilized? Everyone who says it's no big deal to say this or do that and that people shouldn't throw a hissy fit when someone says something inappropriate is part of the problem. We are becoming more and more desensitized and it seems more and more people are completely selfish and are so numb that they find it enjoyable to make other people angry just to feel some sort of control over their own life. Sure there are other reasons but you don't have to be religious or you don't have to have a proper upbringing to know deep down inside that acting the way so many do online just isn't cool. Making people feel miserable doesn't make you a better person.

It's like these forums. For a lot of people it's a competition about who's smarter and can make the other guy feel like he's insignificant. There's no compassion, no manners and no mercy whatsoever. It's all about me, me, me ,me and how I can make myself look better and make somebody else feel stupid. I've been a member here for awhile but I've only posted a handful of times because I know there's no point when I'll just get flamed like I'm sure I will after writing this by somebody and why feed the monsters when you don't have to.

I guess all I'm trying to say is when are we going to grow up? When are we going to start acting different and start treating each other with more respect and not acting like complete jerks everywhere? How bout we start here and in our games by actually having respect for other people and helping us all to enjoy the game. If you think something you say might be offensive why say it and provoke somebody or cause them to feel uncomfortable? Is it really that important to make somebody upset just so you can feel powerful? Playing games is supposed to feel fun and let you relax and not think about life's pressures but instead we just feel more pressure. It would be nice to be in an atmosphere where people are just generally happy because they are not stepping on each others toes all the time and be respectful of each other.
 

Originally posted by Zorlofe

It does seem LoTRO has a better community on the server I play on and I find it more enjoyable to play there than many of the other games I've stopped playing because I'm sick of the crap I see people saying. It's not just curse words that get old it's the things in general so many people say and the attitudes they have.

What's sad to me is that we even have to have a filter. When you go into a public place where you know there are all kinds of people that you don't know is it not possible to act civilized? Everyone who says it's no big deal to say this or do that and that people shouldn't throw a hissy fit when someone says something inappropriate is part of the problem. We are becoming more and more desensitized and it seems more and more people are completely selfish and are so numb that they find it enjoyable to make other people angry just to feel some sort of control over their own life. Sure there are other reasons but you don't have to be religious or you don't have to have a proper upbringing to know deep down inside that acting the way so many do online just isn't cool. Making people feel miserable doesn't make you a better person.

It's like these forums. For a lot of people it's a competition about who's smarter and can make the other guy feel like he's insignificant. There's no compassion, no manners and no mercy whatsoever. It's all about me, me, me ,me and how I can make myself look better and make somebody else feel stupid. I've been a member here for awhile but I've only posted a handful of times because I know there's no point when I'll just get flamed like I'm sure I will after writing this by somebody and why feed the monsters when you don't have to.

I guess all I'm trying to say is when are we going to grow up? When are we going to start acting different and start treating each other with more respect and not acting like complete jerks everywhere? How bout we start here and in our games by actually having respect for other people and helping us all to enjoy the game. If you think something you say might be offensive why say it and provoke somebody or cause them to feel uncomfortable? Is it really that important to make somebody upset just so you can feel powerful? Playing games is supposed to feel fun and let you relax and not think about life's pressures but instead we just feel more pressure. It would be nice to be in an atmosphere where people are just generally happy because they are not stepping on each others toes all the time and be respectful of each other.
 

Is the price we pay for freedom

Is actually the solution to not have con-tempt over meaningless bullshit

Is a matter of individual perception and there is no way we can cater to all the different billions of perceptions

Other people can't make you angry since that decision process resides in the chemical releases in your brain, not theirs

Worry about controling your own life/emotion since trying to control what others say is futile.

If you feel stupid then that is yours and of your making not anyone elses...own it if you wish.

Learning these facts will aid you in "growing up"

As much as I am a complete Sanya fanboi, I can't help but think that she views the majority (white males) as being less sensitive to insult.  And, maybe we are.  It is interesting the cultures that are allowed in various open chats.  In a city I used to live in, my black friends used "nigger" all the time, sometimes to me.  I was never called "cracker," but white males they didn't like were.  This was open chat.  (FWIW, my liberally-instilled sense of PC-fear, which I hate, never allowed me to return the term of endearment to my black friends... even during conversations where "nigger" was every third word.)

I think though, that her point was swept away.  I get this all the time when I write for the masses.  It seemed that the "progress" were people were chilling.  People just focused on a few sentences.  I hate, as a poster, when that happens.  You kind of lose yourself in the waves with a crazy look on your face, "but wait, that's not really what I wanted to say."

Anyway, I hate that her column doesn't seem to want to pop up in my RSS... as to why I am 5 days late.

I've seen happen in other games what you're talking about here.  I always felt that LoTRO had a very good community vs. some of the other MMO's I have tried.  Sadly there will always be, on the interwebs or otherwise, people who enjoy saying outlandish things just to stir up the bee's nest.  I've always waffled between justifying those comments with one of my own or just ignoring them altogether since most of the time these folks are just looking for the attention.  Btw, your comment about the AoC guild....ugh.....easily the most immature and worst chat I have seen in any of the MMO's I have seen.  On the flip side I was pleasantly suprised with the beta community on Aion this weekend.  Imo your next article needs to be about folks who find "creative" and "offensive" ways to display their ignorance in character names or forum avatars.  You may reference my forum avatar as an example.

Originally posted by SpugNation

As much as I am a complete Sanya fanboi, I can't help but think that she views the majority (white males) as being less sensitive to insult.  And, maybe we are.  It is interesting the cultures that are allowed in various open chats.  In a city I used to live in, my black friends used "nigger" all the time, sometimes to me.  I was never called "cracker," but white males they didn't like were.  This was open chat.  (FWIW, my liberally-instilled sense of PC-fear, which I hate, never allowed me to return the term of endearment to my black friends... even during conversations where "nigger" was every third word.)

I think though, that her point was swept away.  I get this all the time when I write for the masses.  It seemed that the "progress" were people were chilling.  People just focused on a few sentences.  I hate, as a poster, when that happens.  You kind of lose yourself in the waves with a crazy look on your face, "but wait, that's not really what I wanted to say."

Anyway, I hate that her column doesn't seem to want to pop up in my RSS... as to why I am 5 days late.

Ya I have nothing against her but I do disagree with her opinions...

But..here is an idea, since you are a columnist (Snaya Weathers) I request that you do some research on emotional management and then write an article about MMO gamers and what they could do to manage their emotions better in the MMORPG's chat situations.

I challenge this of you and even double dare you!!  

Just for clarity, emotions have more to do with what you feel and not what you say

Originally posted by Warsong

Originally posted by Zorlofe

It does seem LoTRO has a better community on the server I play on and I find it more enjoyable to play there than many of the other games I've stopped playing because I'm sick of the crap I see people saying. It's not just curse words that get old it's the things in general so many people say and the attitudes they have.

What's sad to me is that we even have to have a filter. When you go into a public place where you know there are all kinds of people that you don't know is it not possible to act civilized? Everyone who says it's no big deal to say this or do that and that people shouldn't throw a hissy fit when someone says something inappropriate is part of the problem. We are becoming more and more desensitized and it seems more and more people are completely selfish and are so numb that they find it enjoyable to make other people angry just to feel some sort of control over their own life. Sure there are other reasons but you don't have to be religious or you don't have to have a proper upbringing to know deep down inside that acting the way so many do online just isn't cool. Making people feel miserable doesn't make you a better person.

It's like these forums. For a lot of people it's a competition about who's smarter and can make the other guy feel like he's insignificant. There's no compassion, no manners and no mercy whatsoever. It's all about me, me, me ,me and how I can make myself look better and make somebody else feel stupid. I've been a member here for awhile but I've only posted a handful of times because I know there's no point when I'll just get flamed like I'm sure I will after writing this by somebody and why feed the monsters when you don't have to.

I guess all I'm trying to say is when are we going to grow up? When are we going to start acting different and start treating each other with more respect and not acting like complete jerks everywhere? How bout we start here and in our games by actually having respect for other people and helping us all to enjoy the game. If you think something you say might be offensive why say it and provoke somebody or cause them to feel uncomfortable? Is it really that important to make somebody upset just so you can feel powerful? Playing games is supposed to feel fun and let you relax and not think about life's pressures but instead we just feel more pressure. It would be nice to be in an atmosphere where people are just generally happy because they are not stepping on each others toes all the time and be respectful of each other.
 

Is the price we pay for freedom

Is actually the solution to not have con-tempt over meaningless bullshit

Is a matter of individual perception and there is no way we can cater to all the different billions of perceptions

Other people can't make you angry since that decision process resides in the chemical releases in your brain, not theirs

Worry about controling your own life/emotion since trying to control what others say is futile.

If you feel stupid then that is yours and of your making not anyone elses...own it if you wish.

Learning these facts will aid you in "growing up"

Trust me I understand what you are saying and that's why I don't respond to people that act like that in game and is why I have hardly ever said anything here for the 2 years I've been a member. I don't wish to feel stupid concerning these topics because I don't. Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying and take me as a light weight and think I need to grow up. There's a reason I've been leading a gaming community for over five years. I've been helping to teach people better respect for eachother in game for awhile now (in my community) and that was my attempt here. I'll admit I don't always make the best attempts and convey myself the way I would like for it to come out though.

Also, understand my reply to you is not meant to be snide or rude but rather just a simple response as I may have been misunderstood .

Welcome to the evolution of the newer sacred cows.  Happens about once every 10 years or so and MMO as social space is still part of society.  Prolly more than ever before.   Also guilds as families have their effect on individuals perspectives and there is this idea floating around that the PVE player base cross games has become really tired of being pushed around by the more aggressive gamer types who tent to be as confrontational in their ooc  type chat as they are in their game play [prolly outside the game too].  To exasperate this the current dev community seems to favor the previously mentioned aggressive types and in most of the current mmo's make the rule sets more comfortable to them

what does this have to do with ooc tolerance?  Consider the new surge in lack there of as a collateral by product.  

Overall, I agree with people that some words shouldn't be used. The N word, for instance, has NO proper place in speech. If you use it, or other words like it, in the company of friends, I can't honestly begrudge you that. But using it in an open internet channel is NOT USING IT WITH YOUR ACCEPTING FRIENDS. Not only is there simply no acceptable application for that word (and many others) that you CAN'T use another word for, but the real issue is that you are playing a game run by a company who sets the rules that you AGREE to follow. Good luck trying the whole philosophical free speech bit with a CSR who has a handy copy of the EULA in front of him/her. Not to mention that "offensive words" are in fact offensive by and large for a reason.

For instance, it wouldn't matter a bit if it was commonly used. It wouldn't matter if it meant something other than what it literally means. But if I had people with british accents calling me a "Mud-caked inbred potatoe farmer" because I happened to be Irish.. even if that was condensed to one word, like "pikey," I'd always find it offensive. And 40 million of my ancestors DIDN'T get displaced/killed first so that that term could be made up and finally made into a slang term. Slaves from the continent of Africa did, which led to the use of the N word, and it is disrespectful in the extreme for anyone to use it because despite the fluidity of the language, the ORIGINAL SLUR still applies to the word.

To wrap this up, on the other hand, I don't go completely bug-*uck crazy if someone uses a word or phrase that I hate. I don't go crazy and report people unless what they are doing unbalances the game, or they directly harrass me so much that I can't avoid them using the in-game provided tools. And this goes for real life as well. People are allowed to be stupid, and it isn't my responsablity to fix them. I stand up for myself just fine, thank you very much. I don't need a CSR to step in and slap a ban on someone simply because he/she is saying something offensive. I have several options for dealing with people on the internet on a person to person basis that DON'T involve in any way appealing to a higher power than myself.

In MMOs in general, four obvious options are

1) Argue with the person until they shut up or are beaten back down into the horrible hell that they tried to drag themselves out of by yelling at you in general chat,

2) Put them on the IGNORE list and never deal with them again for as long as they play that character (or in some games, that account), 

3) Go through the trouble of finding them, ganking them, and generally making yourself feel better for meeting out the whole "eye for an eye" philosphy (or, similarly, root them out and help them through the problem, whichever feels right to you), and finally

4) QUIT THE GAME

In my view, the MOMENT you call in a CSR for a social/person to person issue you have failed miserably at the whole... GAME thing. A game isn't meant to be taken seriously. You shouldn't have to ask for help from a "parent" in a game. But when you do, it would be NICE to know that the people asking for help really, in fact, NEED help from that CSR, and aren't just pissed off so much that they can't do anything but react to their own powerful emotional needs.

All I ask is that if you find yourself offended by what someone says, please just try not to become what you yourself are uncomfortable being around. Stand on your own two feet if you would be so kind.

Dear Sanya,

Bigotry and idiocy is propogated by those that acknowledge it. And I am sad to say that you have wrote a full page article giving "acknowledgement dues" to something that doesnt deserve much more than a glance at best. I agree that words have meaning but I think you have lost site of your own arguement after that statement.

Gay - in its original meaning was to outline a persons behavior in a possitive and uplifting light.

Gay - then was switchted to describing a sexual preference.

Gay - is now used for both of the previous two descriptions but also outlines something that is out of the ordinary or even to some as unwholesome.

The point I am trying to illustrate here is that "Gay" is an orginization of letters and that is the end of it. The meaning derived is decided by the individual receiving the information. If the majority of the populace only observes "Gay" as a non offensive slang term, then that is what it will be. But if articles are published outlining how horrible the term is when used in such context. Then the ficle masses will easily be swayed and soon there will be one more ugly part of our language born.

I have always found it funny that no one has been able to call me a name in my adult life that has ever effected me personally. Because without credibility it is just noise, and if I was to react to it then I am inherently giving it credibility.

Originally posted by lilune666

Only the insensitive will "forget" there are real people playing a game with them in the first place, right?  Most would simply ignore a rude comment from someone like that.  Offended enough to open a  ticket?  Go right ahead, that's what they're there for. 

Not being able to distinguish genuine, malicious bigotry from thoughless comments only exasperates this sad situation.     

Exactly, I ignore rude comments and most bickering in chat channels except from a comical standpoint.  I could see possibly this hurting hardcore role players and people who get deeply into the immersion of the game and playerbase.

Myself I take it as a gameworld and no matter what part of the world or society you currently live in there will be immaturity and bickering the only effects it has on you is what you allow.

Originally posted by Siamko 

.......................

The point I am trying to illustrate here is that "Gay" is an orginization of letters and that is the end of it. The meaning derived is decided by the individual receiving the information. If the majority of the populace only observes "Gay" as a non offensive slang term, then that is what it will be. But if articles are published outlining how horrible the term is when used in such context. Then the ficle masses will easily be swayed and soon there will be one more ugly part of our language born.

I have always found it funny that no one has been able to call me a name in my adult life that has ever effected me personally. Because without credibility it is just noise, and if I was to react to it then I am inherently giving it credibility.

  Wow, finally something I can agree with on these forums.

Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by Siamko 

.......................

The point I am trying to illustrate here is that "Gay" is an orginization of letters and that is the end of it. The meaning derived is decided by the individual receiving the information. If the majority of the populace only observes "Gay" as a non offensive slang term, then that is what it will be. But if articles are published outlining how horrible the term is when used in such context. Then the ficle masses will easily be swayed and soon there will be one more ugly part of our language born.

I have always found it funny that no one has been able to call me a name in my adult life that has ever effected me personally. Because without credibility it is just noise, and if I was to react to it then I am inherently giving it credibility.

 

  Wow, finally something I can agree with on these forums.

I think its actually pretty scarey that someone posted something so logical on these forums.

and I agree with the concept.