Unfortunately, the 'Hype' comment system in MMORPG leaves no easy way to discuss someone's  review of a game. However, we can at least rebut or discuss negative hype reviews in this thread. Often their negative review is simply a misunderstanding of the game since they are interpreting the short description of the game. We acknowledge that there are also those people who just aren't going to like this kind of game no matter what we say or build. We can't change some of their minds, but we do hope we can at least answer some of their questions or enlighten some of those with the wrong impression of Citadel of Sorcery.

So let's get started by beginning with the latest 'hype' post by Falendor. Here is his comment as posted in Hype, I quote:

Maybe its just how the stuff is shown in the article but i really dont see how this is any diffrent from any other "story based" MMO, and an instance is still and instance even if you call it a "reflected world"

First off, before I comment on Falendor's suppositions I'd like to say that there is nothing wrong with the other MMOs I may use in comparison. They are simply different, and my comparisons have to do with pointing out those differences, not in saying what is better or worse.

With that said, Falendor states: "i really dont see how this is any diffrent from any other 'story based' MMO".  The problem is that he doesn't give any examples of which MMO he is comparing. If Falendor would like to post a reply in this thread and give me an example of an MMO and what he considers one of their better quests, I'd love to compare that to show him the differences that set Citadel of Sorcery apart from those games. However, in case Falendor chooses not to reply, and since he states 'any other story based' MMO', let's pick one. How about LOTRO? That's certainly a game based on one of the greatest stories ever written. In LOTRO they have an Epic Storyline, which I found to be one of the more interesting parts of the game. At various points in the game you are allowed to progress that epic storyline with a small quest. Let's take one of those quests and do a little comparison with a quest from CoS. Because I don't want to write a novel here, I'm going to try to be brief with descriptions from both.

In LOTRO's epic quest, at one point you are sent to rescue a guy who is held captive. You are given a bit of story to explain why you need to save the guy. Then you are transported to an instance of a small area just outside the wall of a bandit camp. You have a temporary companion who MUST survive the quest or you 'fail'. The quest consists of opening the gate and getting into a battle around a camp fire. Once over, and assuming you kept your NPC buddy alive, you move forward twenty feet and fight another set of bad guys. Again, if you win and keep you guy alive, you move twenty feet forward to another battle. You repeat this until you reach the end with your guy still alive. Should you fail, you may start over from the beginning and try again. Nothing changes, it is completely linear. You do the same thing in the same sequence over and over until you get to the end of the linear quest with your NPC guy alive. End of Quest.

Now, I'm going to describe a similar segment of a quest from CoS. The only problem here is that unlike LOTRO, this wouldn't be a quest, it is too little, to insignificant. But that's OK, let's take a look at this as if it was a quest in CoS anyway just to see the difference in how the game play works.

An NPC comes to you and tells you that a captive inside a bandit compound has information you need about a secret plot to kill the king. First difference from LOTRO, you can choose NOT to rescue this guy and get the information, it's up to you. But let's say you choose to rescue the guy, the NPC offers to come with you, again you decide if you want him to come along or not. I mean, he might be a liability, or he might be too important to risk, or he might be a spy or traitor. Clues you got earlier may help you make that decision, but it's up to you.

But... let's again assume you choose to let him accompany you into the bandit camp (so that we follow the ONLY choice you get in LOTRO). In LOTRO, your only option is to open the gate and get attacked by the bandits. In CoS you decide how you want to get to the prisoner. Do you want to make a frontal assault on the gate? You can if you want, but you can come up with a better plan than that, can't you? How about luring some of them out of the compound first and ambushing them to cut down the odds? Or how about climbing over the wall and trying to hit them with surprise? Or what about putting on a disguise and trying to fool them? Hmm, there are more things I might try, but this is enough to get the point across, which is, YOU pick how you want to accomplish your mission.

Now, let's say no matter what option you choose you somehow get into a fight, (it's one possibility), If your NPC buddy dies... he dies. The story goes on. We NEVER go back and make you repeat a quest portion over again. Like real life, you make your choices, roll the dice and live with the outcome. The Quest and your story goes on, and the repercussions of that NPC dying have to be dealt with, quests aren't linear.

But there is more... while in the bandit camp trying to get to the prisoner you spot an old enemy who seems to be working with these bandits. You ran into this guy on another quest, and he made a deal with you, and then screwed you and stole the treasure. You have a few seconds to make a decision, if you are in disguise, he might recognize you and point you out to the bandits. Do you want to try to stay away from him? Or, do you want to try to kill him when no one is looking and hide his body behind some crates?

Or, if you are in a battle with the bandits and he spots you, you might see him dash off to get the prisoner before you can get to him first. The point being that this is a personal enemy of yours, one that any other player wouldn't know, and one that is out to screw you, or get to the goal before you do. He is unique to your adventure, part of your personal story, not another player's. In LOTRO every player goes through the same story with the same NPCs. It's linear Pass or Fail. In CoS every player goes through the quest in their own way, making choices that change the quest, and there is no pass or fail, what happens on this quest will continue your story, no matter what the outcome.

I hope that explains just some of the difference between CoS and other story based MMOs that you may have played. There is more, but this enough to point out that CoS IS different from any other story based MMO that we have played.

Falendor's second point is, and I quote,

" an instance is still and instance even if you call it a 'reflected world'"

True, well, sort of, I mean, that's the same as saying a boat is still a boat, even if you call it an Aircraft Carrier. That's basically true, but our Reflected Worlds are Aircraft Carriers compared to row boats in other MMOs, so are they the same?

Again, Falendor didn't give any examples of other MMOs to use as a comparison, so I'll just pick a few big ones, how about WoW, EQ2 and LOTRO? In the above 'story' comparison to LOTRO I described a quest that takes place in an 'instance' of their world. This instance is the same type of instance used in the other two MMOs I just mentioned. It is a small area where a group of players is temporarily transported to complete some linear or other short piece of game play.

Now let's compare that with what we call a 'Reflected World'. There is a reason we choose to name it differently. Part of that reason is because of our Universe mythos, but let's ignore that part for the moment and look at just the mechanics. When you enter a Reflected World you are entering the ENTIRE full planet, not a little segment of that world. Every NPC, every adventure, every quest, every mission, everything is there for you to play. You could choose to stay in that Reflected World and adventure for as long as you stay online. Everything is there, and even more importantly, that world knows about you and your history, your friends, allies, personal enemies, hostile cults, etc. Everything you have done in the past is reflected in this world. If you screwed with the Thieves guild in one town on another quest, they will remember you when you show up, worse, they may have assassins out in the world setting traps for you or hunting you down. Everything about this full Reflected World it set to be your personal playground, your personal story, your continuing adventure. This is not just some repetitive instance that is the same for every player. It is an Aircraft Carrier compared to a row boat of other MMO games, they are both boats, yes ,but there really is no comparison.

Having said all that, I'd still love to discuss this further with you Falendor if you would like to supply examples of games that you believe are similar to Citadel of Sorcery we can take a look and see if you can prove your point. We haven't found them, but maybe you have played MMOs that we haven't. Let us know, give detailed examples of their story driven quest or instance system and let's compare the difference. I'm willing if you are; love to hear from you.

Hi,

My Hype post was mainly based on the article i read on this site, and i admit making my judment about a game from just one article is probly not the way to go.

So what i was trying to say was that there are alot of games out there that claim to be story based as in almost all of them its almost as over used as talking about how huge you game world is.  from what i have read so far they support there claim of a story based game by saying that they are using new technologys in there game engine and the mirrored worlds instancing, i would just like to see more details about just how defrent the mirrored worlds are from eachother.

Sorry i did not read all of your post i have a -10 save against the wall of text spell.

Ok so read some more on this forum.  If i get the idea of what a RW is then they should be something like this:  

1) there is basicly one world that all the players share and can quest in, but each player has his own copy of the world with personalized quests in it that he can drag his friends along into.

2) and the reason for this i assume is to make it easer to make a story line that feels customized for that player (No one yealling anyone els doing the kill arch nemessis quest too? in global chat).

So basicly my consern is that when im in the big shared world will i still meet peaple who have gone on the same quests as me (killed my arch nemesses) or are you planing on having sooo mutch game modulatet to mix in sooo many ways that no two characters will ever have gone on the same (major) quest spratly?

Originally posted by Falendor

So basicly my consern is that when im in the big shared world will i still meet peaple who have gone on the same quests as me (killed my arch nemesses) or are you planing on having sooo mutch game modulatet to mix in sooo many ways that no two characters will ever have gone on the same (major) quest spratly?

Hmm, several answers here... first off, yes... you can meet people who have sort of gone on the same quest as you.  Sort of because each quest is customized to each player's story to the point where they are so different that you may or may not even recognize the same quest.   No one could possibly write a quest walk-through that would tell you what to do where correctly, since your version will be radically different.  It is based off your past history and the choices you make during the quest.  The permutations on all the variables in our quests make them nearly limitless in variety.

Next... you mentioned 'killed my arch nemesis', which isn't possible.  Your arch nemesis belongs to you, as in, that NPC was created for your story, placed into the world for you, and will ONLY be dealing with you on your quests.  He or she is uniquely generated for you and used in your quests (unless you kill him, of course).  But don't worry, if you do kill him, I'm sure you will make new enemies down the road.   Other players have their own personal allies and enemies in their story.   The point is, you are correct, no two characters will ever go through the same exact quests in Citadel of Sorcery.

Very Cool You guys at MMO Magic have picked a very ambitions project hear I hope you can get it to work.  If you just added some hard core PvP this would really really be my type of game (in the running for my PvE game now thought).

 Thanks Falendor.  It is ambitious, but if it was easy, everyone would do it.  :)

Meanwhile, though CoS is not a typical PVP MMO game, we are also not a typical PVE game.  We plan a new type of MMO game, and we do hope the type of dangerous world we are creating with people hunting you, wars, traitors, spies, evil cults, group strategy A.I. and more will still give you the intense combat situations you are seeking.  Give CoS a try when it comes out, maybe we'll make you a believer.  

Thank you very much for such an informative post Jatar. As per normal, CoS developers are keeping those of us 'chomping at the bit' waiting for it, informed on what it will be like..

Cheers

Originally posted by Jatar

 Thanks Falendor.  It is ambitious, but if it was easy, everyone would do it.  :)

Meanwhile, though CoS is not a typical PVP MMO game, we are also not a typical PVE game.  We plan a new type of MMO game, and we do hope the type of dangerous world we are creating with people hunting you, wars, traitors, spies, evil cults, group strategy A.I. and more will still give you the intense combat situations you are seeking.  Give CoS a try when it comes out, maybe we'll make you a believer.  

Just to add or ask another question, is it the case that actually the mirrored world is the same world but a flag is set and you can only see people within your story, and that your charachter is really just made up of humdreds of factions which generate story and if you are with other players the these factions get combined to generate common story.

Is it the case that hunting with other players you could inherit one of their enemies or would that be too complicated?

Just to add or ask another question, is it the case that actually the mirrored world is the same world but a flag is set and you can only see people within your story, and that your charachter is really just made up of humdreds of factions which generate story and if you are with other players the these factions get combined to generate common story.

Is it the case that hunting with other players you could inherit one of their enemies or would that be too complicated?

 

Ah... no.   (though  untwisting your question was mind boggling.)  We're not really going to get into the details of 'how' we create story and interaction with NPCs across time.  It's too much to explain, and not something we really want to talk about anyway.  The answer I will give you is that we just track a LOT of information about who, what, where, when and why you did things wherever you go, and use that information in the game and quest generation system.

The answer to your second question is 'yes', there are some instances where traveling together with other players will cause you to make NPC friends or enemies you might not have made otherwise.  The old 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend, etc.' holds true in CoS. 

The system in CoS behind this NPC interaction is very complex, and a very important part of our game design.  The mechanics of it are unimportant to the player as it would just confuse people to try to understand how it is done.  However, when actually playing the game it is very simple to understand.  Do bad things to NPCs, make enemiles, do good things for NPCS make friends.

Enemies very in what they do to a player, but the worst ones may actually try to thwart you in all of your adventures, Quests and Missions.  They might set traps for you, or attempt to steal whatever it is you're after.  They might join your current adversaries, or blow your disguise.  Generally, they are a pain in the ass as any good nemesis should be in a story. 

The good news is, like most elements of CoS, interaction with your enemies is not liniar scripted, meaning, you CAN stop them from doing you dirty, and even kill them (perminently).  What you do about your enemies is up to you.  NPC allies can also help you get out of some dire spots, or give you important information when you could really use it, etc.

Hope that explains a little more.

Originally posted by Jatar

Just to add or ask another question, is it the case that actually the mirrored world is the same world but a flag is set and you can only see people within your story, and that your charachter is really just made up of humdreds of factions which generate story and if you are with other players the these factions get combined to generate common story.

Is it the case that hunting with other players you could inherit one of their enemies or would that be too complicated?

 

Ah... no.   (though  untwisting your question was mind boggling.)  We're not really going to get into the details of 'how' we create story and interaction with NPCs across time.  It's too much to explain, and not something we really want to talk about anyway.  The answer I will give you is that we just track a LOT of information about who, what, where, when and why you did things wherever you go, and use that information in the game and quest generation system.

The answer to your second question is 'yes', there are some instances where traveling together with other players will cause you to make NPC friends or enemies you might not have made otherwise.  The old 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend, etc.' holds true in CoS. 

The system in CoS behind this NPC interaction is very complex, and a very important part of our game design.  The mechanics of it are unimportant to the player as it would just confuse people to try to understand how it is done.  However, when actually playing the game it is very simple to understand.  Do bad things to NPCs, make enemiles, do good things for NPCS make friends.

Enemies very in what they do to a player, but the worst ones may actually try to thwart you in all of your adventures, Quests and Missions.  They might set traps for you, or attempt to steal whatever it is you're after.  They might join your current adversaries, or blow your disguise.  Generally, they are a pain in the ass as any good nemesis should be in a story. 

The good news is, like most elements of CoS, interaction with your enemies is not liniar scripted, meaning, you CAN stop them from doing you dirty, and even kill them (perminently).  What you do about your enemies is up to you.  NPC allies can also help you get out of some dire spots, or give you important information when you could really use it, etc.

Hope that explains a little more.

No thats great like the sounds of this lots of factions and variety and auto generated content can only be fun, just hope theres a years worth of play or more before the game is won and you start again.

I know players don't need to know the complexities or mechanics behind the game just that some of us are sadists and like complexity.

I'm sure that some of the vast amount of information stored on a player includes what amounts to your standing with a LOT of factions. Current games that reveal faction and have tasks that give you a known +/- faction and faction based rewards means that you get suckered into a faction grind. You Sadists may like faction grinding but I'd rather play to have fun.

Originally posted by skipeth

I'm sure that some of the vast amount of information stored on a player includes what amounts to your standing with a LOT of factions. Current games that reveal faction and have tasks that give you a known +/- faction and faction based rewards means that you get suckered into a faction grind. You Sadists may like faction grinding but I'd rather play to have fun.

It's transparent did you not understand... shame.

I don't care either way :p

I just want the game out ...

Originally posted by DkLadyKitara

I don't care either way :p

I just want the game out ...

 

I agree concept here sounds great , a game to enjoy.

reposted since the html tags got screwed up somehow

Originally posted by Isane

Originally posted by skipeth

I'm sure that some of the vast amount of information stored on a player includes what amounts to your standing with a LOT of factions. Current games that reveal faction and have tasks that give you a known +/- faction and faction based rewards means that you get suckered into a faction grind. You Sadists may like faction grinding but I'd rather play to have fun.

 

It's transparent did you not understand... shame.

Um, yes I did. Did you not understand my post which supports transparency by supplying a counter-example of what you get by revealing faction information?

Originally posted by skipeth

Originally posted by Isane

Originally posted by skipeth

I'm sure that some of the vast amount of information stored on a player includes what amounts to your standing with a LOT of factions. Current games that reveal faction and have tasks that give you a known +/- faction and faction based rewards means that you get suckered into a faction grind. You Sadists may like faction grinding but I'd rather play to have fun.

 

It's transparent did you not understand... shame.

Um, yes I did. Did you not understand my post which supports transparency by supplying a counter-example of what you get by revealing faction information?

 

For some reason thread hasn't updated....... I can't see any changes you have made no biggie.

Man This is one game. i'm really really really hoping to play!!!!