Originally posted by kiddyno071

Bah ha ha ha, you all kill me!    

I've PvP'd with lots of guys.  I may have.

Originally posted by GoldenDog

Originally posted by kiddyno071

Bah ha ha ha, you all kill me!    

 

I've PvP'd with lots of guys.  I may have.

Maybe... but I doubt it!

This is a situation of wanting something that is basically not possible (or at least profitable). Before you immediately click "quote" and reply to only the first sentence of this post read the rest.

1. Pure "skill" PvP can only be found in the FPS genre. Why do I say that? Quite simple: it provides about as close to equal odds as anything can. FPS games rely heavily on player skill. The only limitations are your hardware and connection. Factors like class balance, gear, levels and one of the ten other off setting factors do not effect you. MMO PvP is not as skillz oriented as people want you to believe.

2. A pure PvP game is also setting itself up for a very narrow market. I recognize that PvP players are vocal but the community size does not match in numbers to the decibels of the shouting. You might find yourself in a very small game (see Planetside).

3. You might find yourself with nothing to do. MMOs are 24/7. That doesn't mean there are players active at all times. If you play off peak you could literally log in to nothing or so few players it isn't fun. Who likes to play Battlefield with only three people on the map? I don't. PvE content at least provides -something- for a player to do solo.

4. You still might find yourself with nothing to do. If you want to be solo or your guild isn't on and a rival guild is out in force you might get bowled over and ganked over and over again until you just log out. This happens in Warhammer Online when one side gets over whelming force for a play period. Eventually, after being destroyed with no chance of victory over and over, even the bravest defenders just leave. With PvP your play experience is too dependent on other players. This leads to a very volatile and inconsistent experience.

I'm sure I'll get lots of disagreement but most of that stuff isn't opinion. Those are real concerns when trying to make a profitable product. I am no PvP lover but I love having the -option-. Battlegrounds, scenarios and PvP specific zones float my boat. The idea that a game would be centered on that, however, does not.
 

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by Brif

I was actually wondering the exact same thing about an hour ago, why not have just PvP games?

 

There's a whole genre devoted to this, goes by the name of FPS, maybe you've heard of it.

Seriously you guys who want to do nothing more than PVP, why do you play mmorpg's?  The genre has never been about PVP.  A few games have managed to implement it well (UO and EVE come to mind) but by and large its poorly done because its an afterthought. 

If you want to beat on people 24/7, choose a genre/game that allows you to do so.  Also, everyone is equal in an FPS, so that mythical 'balance' that pvp'ers always cry about is already taken care of.

/thread

Such a shallow opinion you have here, maybe the argument could be reversed? If all you want to do is kill A.I. why not play nothing but single player games? If you don't want to fight another player, why play online games at all?

Oh, that's right because you want to socialize, well so do those who prefer PVP. You can't get the type of socialization in a fps  you can get in an MMORPG. The fighting aspects are just that, aspects. There's more to these games than killing anything be it a PC or NPC. There's economies, guilds, sometimes cities, others contested areas,exploring and just plain hanging out... You can't do any of that in an FPS frag fest. 

 

 

Why do you assume I want to fight or kill at all?  Pro tip: putting words in other people's mouths to illustrate a point rarely makes you look like anything more than an idiot.

As you said yourself, there's more to these games than combat, but in my experience, many pvp types lack the imagination to see beyond sticking the pointy end into the other man.  If it moves, they kill it.  That's fine for an FPS but disruptive to a virtual world, unless that world is built for nothing but wanton violence and zerging.  Most mmo's are not built for pvp, it is an afterthought tacked on to the majority of them in the hopes of attracting a larger audience.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Goragg

Because PVP does not belong in an MMO to begin with.

Any game that has charater development based in time in is not a good venue for PVP. The reason is that players with more time in beat those with less and the whole "skill" element disappears. The competition becomes stale and the game ulimately suffers.

Now if you cookie cutter characters and provide zero or limited game play effecting rewards it works. I loved BF2142 because ranks and unlocks helped but did not define my play experience. Can you do that in an MMO and still call it an MMO?

 

What a load of crap! Players fighting against other players doesnt belong in an ONLINE roleplaying game? Where does it belong then? Offline roleplaying games lol. Online games are obviously the perfect (and ONLY) venue for PvP. You had better get used to it too because as developers are learning from their past mistakes more WELL DESIGNED mmos are on their way that incorporate PvP.

Players shouldnt be able to play against each other online.......ha ha ha! What a joke lol

Can you do that in an MMO and still call it a Massively Multiplayer Online game? Of course you bloody can. Why is that so difficult to contemplate. It might help if you stop focusing on all the failed attempts at incorporating PvP into the PURE PvE games (ie single player games in multiplayer mode) of the past. Yes they all sucked.....because they were never built for player vs player combat in the first place.......NOT because PvP doesnt work.

Just because you've only ever eaten mouldy apples doesnt mean apples taste bad.

You missed the point. An MMO with level/gear/spec based characters does not provide a good PVP experience. It is less a competition against players and more against who is the better PVEer. Which character was better at grinding stuff for better items/skills.

A good PVP experience makes players somewhat even and allows for good competition based upon fighting skills or game knowledge. In general these games are called FPS not MMO.

Strong PVP based MMOs have had difficutly. Shadowbane is case in point or even Darktide server of AC. Even EVE would have a MUCH larger following if it dumped the PVP focus so that you could actually explore the universe without being podded and having to farm  cash over and over again. DAoC had some success but realm population imbalances created another problem. Throw in the constant FotM and class/skill balancing and you can see why I think PVP does not belong in an MMO.

Simply put PVP does not work when the game allow you to get better than your opponent by ot PVPing. Basically proving the OPs PoV - where is the no forced PVE  game?

The fact of the matter is that MMOs are built to attract a wide audience. If MMOs don't have a large number of subscribers, they simply fail. It's important for them to appeal to the PvE crowd and the PvP crowd. The problem is that this usually is done poorly, because some skills that work fantastically in PvE have no use in PvP, or are underpowered in PvP, and the same is true of skills that do great in PvP have no use in PvE. Not to mention, as previously stated, a lot of the MMOs out right now are very gear-centric. It's true that a good, skilled PvPer can still defeat someone with much higher gear, but that's just not common for the average player.

I haven't seen any other games do the same, so please tell me if you know of more, but Guild Wars takes the extra step to make certain skills have a different functionality in PvP. It's incredibly balanced, and the PvP itself is a great experience. If you're looking for a PvP-centric game, Guild Wars is definitely a good place to start. A one time fee, and free PvP on massive scales after that. And all players that start off with a PvP-only character will have max gear and weapons. Certain upgrades to armor and weapons will already be there, but to make a more specialized character, you can unlock more upgrades through playing the PvP matches. All together a great idea.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

 You're right, there should be a pure PvP MMO available, along with many other types of MMO's.

But what you're probably gonna hear is that you'll 'force players to PvP', and that you ' only care about what you want'. Too bad. 

We already have them, they're called FPS.  I always think it's funny that people show up in the MMO scene and then explain exactly why they don't want to play an MMO.  If they don't like what MMOs are, GO PLAY SOMETHING ELSE!

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by Brif

I was actually wondering the exact same thing about an hour ago, why not have just PvP games?

 

There's a whole genre devoted to this, goes by the name of FPS, maybe you've heard of it.

Seriously you guys who want to do nothing more than PVP, why do you play mmorpg's?  The genre has never been about PVP.  A few games have managed to implement it well (UO and EVE come to mind) but by and large its poorly done because its an afterthought. 

If you want to beat on people 24/7, choose a genre/game that allows you to do so.  Also, everyone is equal in an FPS, so that mythical 'balance' that pvp'ers always cry about is already taken care of.

/thread

balance that pvp'ers cry about?

usually carebears are crying for balance because they have no damn clue how to counter anything, i don't like even playing fields.... most pvp'ers want a challange, you anti-pvp people are always the ones crying when u try it

Originally posted by Ferrel_Thane

1. Pure "skill" PvP can only be found in the FPS genre. Why do I say that? Quite simple: it provides about as close to equal odds as anything can. FPS games rely heavily on player skill. The only limitations are your hardware and connection. Factors like class balance, gear, levels and one of the ten other off setting factors do not effect you. MMO PvP is not as skillz oriented as people want you to believe.

lets set the record straight right here, right now

skill = being able to make fast decisions, good tactics, using terrain to your advantage, being able to overcome higher #s then you/your group, working well as a team, remembering your enemies and their weaknesses, and being able to counter any disadvantages you have

a fps = best aim, best ping, best frame rate, there is skill that is similar in a fps but its not pvp as far as mmos go

they aren't the same, even fps games have ranks now as well... so its not an "even" playing field.... learn your facts first pal

There was a pure PvP MMO.   And no, it didn't last long.

Fury

But if you really want good evenly matched online pvp, with no leveling, no gear grind, no pve, and just combat with real targeting, you really should just play an online shooter.  And now there's a free battlefield game.

There is only one way to make a "Pure" PvP MMORPG.

No npcs, no monsters, no towns, nothing.

You just have players, and a game world.

Give a player some starting tools like an axe, smith hammer, a basic weapon, and the tradeskills knowledge to make simple things and harvest materials, and the basic means of combat and defending themselves.

And let them create the world.

Chop down trees to build homes, mine ores to make anvils and then build weapons are armors, mine rocks and stone to build castles and keeps, grow seeds to create farms and grow food, fish in rivers etc. etc.

Make it so players have to eat to maintain their strength. You don't give players debuffs for not eating, but instead give them buffs for eating that are not mandatory but generally accepted to be required.

Would actually be a fairly easy game to make. You wouldn't have to create any AI, no NPC scripts, no quests...

The only way to do a "Pure" PvP MMO is to remove anything that is not player based. Even having NPC bears and rabbit would lead to PvE, so you can't have them.

That's the problem with most games that label themselves as PvP is that they have really crappy PvE tied on that is required. You have to grind through PvE stuff in order to be the best at PvP.

Or you have "MMOs" that are just lobby's and PvP matches that might as well be 3rd person action RPGs not really MMOs.

Originally posted by Vinterkrig

Originally posted by Ferrel_Thane

1. Pure "skill" PvP can only be found in the FPS genre. Why do I say that? Quite simple: it provides about as close to equal odds as anything can. FPS games rely heavily on player skill. The only limitations are your hardware and connection. Factors like class balance, gear, levels and one of the ten other off setting factors do not effect you. MMO PvP is not as skillz oriented as people want you to believe.

 

lets set the record straight right here, right now

skill = being able to make fast decisions, good tactics, using terrain to your advantage, being able to overcome higher #s then you/your group, working well as a team, remembering your enemies and their weaknesses, and being able to counter any disadvantages you have

a fps = best aim, best ping, best frame rate, there is skill that is similar in a fps but its not pvp as far as mmos go

 

they aren't the same, even fps games have ranks now as well... so its not an "even" playing field.... learn your facts first pal

As far as facts go, just because FPSs have ranks they are still, on average,  a closer even playing field than MMOs. You can't just explain that way by suggesting I don't know what I'm talking about. You're welcome to try but eventually it gets silly.

Additionally, I did not suggest that PvP in MMOs took no skill. I merely pointed out the fact that it does not represent an even skill as much as players (much like you) try to suggest. Lets look at your example:

Fast decisions - Sure, absolutely.

Good tactics - Define a good tactic in an MMO. Most are pretty basic. Attacking from the rear means no blocks or parries.

Terrain - Unfortunately I'm not buying this one. Terrain can obscure you but I don't know a lot of MMOs that give benefits for using high ground and attacking down hill. The closest you get is ranged classes standing on something harder to reach.

Beating larger numbers is a result, not a "skill."

Now lets look at things that drastically reduce skill requirements in MMOs.

Level disparity, loot disparity, numeric disparity, class balance, and random chance make up just a few. No matter how "good" you are the chances of you defeating a player of average skill who is 10+ levels higher than you is slim. No amount of skill will consistently beat an average player who has a huge gear advantage in a loot centric game. More importantly, no amount of skill will ever defeat the absolute basis of all MMOs: random chance.

No matter what you do you cannot control the roll of the dice. You can influence it as best you can but ultimately it is the decider. The best PvP player on the planet can be defeated by the worst due to a simple critical roll.

So, while I appreciate your suggestion that I don't have my facts in order, I must respectfully point out that you're trying to gloss over a lot of hard truths regarding how these games are designed.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by Brif

I was actually wondering the exact same thing about an hour ago, why not have just PvP games?

 

There's a whole genre devoted to this, goes by the name of FPS, maybe you've heard of it.

Seriously you guys who want to do nothing more than PVP, why do you play mmorpg's?  The genre has never been about PVP.  A few games have managed to implement it well (UO and EVE come to mind) but by and large its poorly done because its an afterthought. 

If you want to beat on people 24/7, choose a genre/game that allows you to do so.  Also, everyone is equal in an FPS, so that mythical 'balance' that pvp'ers always cry about is already taken care of.

/thread

Such a shallow opinion you have here, maybe the argument could be reversed? If all you want to do is kill A.I. why not play nothing but single player games? If you don't want to fight another player, why play online games at all?

Oh, that's right because you want to socialize, well so do those who prefer PVP. You can't get the type of socialization in a fps  you can get in an MMORPG. The fighting aspects are just that, aspects. There's more to these games than killing anything be it a PC or NPC. There's economies, guilds, sometimes cities, others contested areas,exploring and just plain hanging out... You can't do any of that in an FPS frag fest. 

Very well said. I'm glad you turned Veritas's idiotic small-minded viewpoint on its head and saved me the hassle of having to do so. Some people really just cant see past their own nose.

Nicely writen.. I agree with many of the points you make.

Originally posted by Yamota

Yeah, it isn't a typo because I am basically wondering, with all the talk of forced PvP, why is never the issue of forced PvE brought up? I hate to fight moronic PvE mobs, and I am sure I am not alone, so why is it so seldomly discussed why so few MMORPGs do NOT force you to PvE?

Even so called FFA PvP games like Darkfall more or less require you to PvE (for loot and stuff) so isn't it about time than an MMORPG was created where PvE was purely optional and you could advance to the end game solely by PvP?

The only, notable, MMORPG I know of that comes close is WAR but even that game has alot of forced PvE in the form of raids and such if you want to get the best raids. Even the end-game in that game is about killing a mob.

Tho I'm sure most of this was already covered...

Its not really even about MMO's being for a vast audience.  They do metrics tho it seems quite often they ignore them as well.  The accepted industry standard as long as I can remember was pvp = 10%.  So the industry attitude is they can make a game for 1 out of 10 people or they can try for 9 out of 10 people.

You may have notice how many newer MMO's try to emulate WoW in many ways.  This isn't to say that WoW "created" anything.. its the large mass market audience.

The point?  These are companies that want to make the most profit.  Ah to be more accurate they are creating what they think will make the most profit (or trying to).

There is also a very established NON-MMO pvp based market if you try to compete in that arena.  You know those world wide gaming series with the cash prizes for best team and clan etc

If you want a pure PvP MMO .. you need to convince investors they will make money.  Yes that's right I didn't say developers...  The 70 to 100 million to make the game is going to come from somewhere.  If you convince those people... then you can have the NO pve scenario.

I'm not taking a side here and I'm pretending your post was serious (because who knows..)   This is just how it works and what you would need to do.  (Its the same reason why we keep seeing the same basic game design that EQ used... instead of say... what UO used).

I can see that MMO's are not your thing, go play an FPS, no pve there.  You really can't have a MMO without pve.

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by Brif

I was actually wondering the exact same thing about an hour ago, why not have just PvP games?

 

There's a whole genre devoted to this, goes by the name of FPS, maybe you've heard of it.

Seriously you guys who want to do nothing more than PVP, why do you play mmorpg's?  The genre has never been about PVP.  A few games have managed to implement it well (UO and EVE come to mind) but by and large its poorly done because its an afterthought. 

If you want to beat on people 24/7, choose a genre/game that allows you to do so.  Also, everyone is equal in an FPS, so that mythical 'balance' that pvp'ers always cry about is already taken care of.

/thread

Such a shallow opinion you have here, maybe the argument could be reversed? If all you want to do is kill A.I. why not play nothing but single player games? If you don't want to fight another player, why play online games at all?

Oh, that's right because you want to socialize, well so do those who prefer PVP. You can't get the type of socialization in a fps  you can get in an MMORPG. The fighting aspects are just that, aspects. There's more to these games than killing anything be it a PC or NPC. There's economies, guilds, sometimes cities, others contested areas,exploring and just plain hanging out... You can't do any of that in an FPS frag fest. 

 

 

Why do you assume I want to fight or kill at all?  Pro tip: putting words in other people's mouths to illustrate a point rarely makes you look like anything more than an idiot.

For the same reason that you assume that all people who want a PvP game only want to fight and kill.

As you said yourself, there's more to these games than combat, but in my experience, many pvp types lack the imagination to see beyond sticking the pointy end into the other man.  If it moves, they kill it.  That's fine for an FPS but disruptive to a virtual world, unless that world is built for nothing but wanton violence and zerging.  Most mmo's are not built for pvp, it is an afterthought tacked on to the majority of them in the hopes of attracting a larger audience.

 

Exactly. You are basing your opinion on mmos in the past which have always been PvE games with badly implemented PvP thrown in as an option. You've even said it yourself. Get your head out of the past and try looking to the future.

Besides all the qualities that exist in a PvE game such as combat and crafting can exist perfectly well in a PvP game. In fact in a PvP game crafting serves more of a purpose. You can even have story elements in a PvP game too. Shocking isnt it. PvP isnt just about "beating on other people" any more than PvE is just about "beating on the computer". Your viewpoint fails.

Fortunately more PvP focused games are now being made so all the pure PvE fanatics can take a back seat. About bloody time. At last I will get to play well designed mmos where I can fight against people as well as with them......which is how it should be.

Originally posted by Yamota

Yeah, it isn't a typo because I am basically wondering, with all the talk of forced PvP, why is never the issue of forced PvE brought up? I hate to fight moronic PvE mobs, and I am sure I am not alone, so why is it so seldomly discussed why so few MMORPGs do NOT force you to PvE?

Even so called FFA PvP games like Darkfall more or less require you to PvE (for loot and stuff) so isn't it about time than an MMORPG was created where PvE was purely optional and you could advance to the end game solely by PvP?

The only, notable, MMORPG I know of that comes close is WAR but even that game has alot of forced PvE in the form of raids and such if you want to get the best raids. Even the end-game in that game is about killing a mob.

The problem is that they have to mix both into a game, because not one single 100% PvP game has ever been profitable.

Hell, games with a 50% focus on PvP struggle to keep subscribers.

Planetside.

I would much rather fight PvE mobs.  PvE NPCs are generally much smarter and more enjoyable to fight than PvP players.  NPCs do not jump around, in and out of combat, as if they forgot to take their ritalin, they have more patience, they have better Vocabulary and grammar, they are more mature, they don't grief, they don't exploit and most important of all they don't talk back once you kill them.

All in all NPC mobs nicer to be aroound and more enjoyable to fight.  Communities of all MMO's would be greatly improved by removing all the PvP kiddies from their games.

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by veritas_X

Originally posted by Brif

I was actually wondering the exact same thing about an hour ago, why not have just PvP games?

 

There's a whole genre devoted to this, goes by the name of FPS, maybe you've heard of it.

Seriously you guys who want to do nothing more than PVP, why do you play mmorpg's?  The genre has never been about PVP.  A few games have managed to implement it well (UO and EVE come to mind) but by and large its poorly done because its an afterthought. 

If you want to beat on people 24/7, choose a genre/game that allows you to do so.  Also, everyone is equal in an FPS, so that mythical 'balance' that pvp'ers always cry about is already taken care of.

/thread

Such a shallow opinion you have here, maybe the argument could be reversed? If all you want to do is kill A.I. why not play nothing but single player games? If you don't want to fight another player, why play online games at all?

Oh, that's right because you want to socialize, well so do those who prefer PVP. You can't get the type of socialization in a fps  you can get in an MMORPG. The fighting aspects are just that, aspects. There's more to these games than killing anything be it a PC or NPC. There's economies, guilds, sometimes cities, others contested areas,exploring and just plain hanging out... You can't do any of that in an FPS frag fest. 

 

 

Why do you assume I want to fight or kill at all?  Pro tip: putting words in other people's mouths to illustrate a point rarely makes you look like anything more than an idiot.

As you said yourself, there's more to these games than combat, but in my experience, many pvp types lack the imagination to see beyond sticking the pointy end into the other man.  If it moves, they kill it.  That's fine for an FPS but disruptive to a virtual world, unless that world is built for nothing but wanton violence and zerging.  Most mmo's are not built for pvp, it is an afterthought tacked on to the majority of them in the hopes of attracting a larger audience.

 

  I never said you personally prefer to do anything, I was not referring to you at all. Only your point and the logic behind it. You actually did the same thing I did, I just reversed it.

You are correct in that there's plenty to do other than kill things, just because a player prefers to kill Ai or PC's, doesn't mean they do not want to experience more than just killing. If they don't, then sure they should just stick to FPS's or NWN. They'll save themselves tons of money.

Most pvp centric MMO players want a persistant virtual world to fight over, there's nothing wrong with that IMO. Battlefield sure as hell doesn't offer anything like that.

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by heremypet

Such a game would be hard to fit into a fantasy style MMO.  It's just be like WoW BG's with a lobby and a menu to distribute your skills and set up your equipment.

Not sure if that could even be classified as a MMO, but some people might like it.

 

Or you could just go buy Guild Wars and call it a day.

Lol people do absolutely no research at all. You can create a max level toon and do nothing but PvP and still advance your character and get better equipment and skills just through PvP.

 

Yep Guild Wars does exactly what the OP implies, PvE is purely optional in that game, you never have to kill a single mob in that game if you don't want to.

WoW is also implementing this into patch 3.2.0 where you can level solely from the battlegrounds, much like WAR does now with it's senarios. Meaning even in wow you can cut out PvE content if you so choose.

This is already being done in a few games.

WAR also allows you to simply PvP to the top tier never killing a mob, and even get your gear through PvP means alone.

What else are you really looking for?>

I've found that most "hardcore" mmo pvp players are nothing more than griefers who like going around and killing people who wouldn't stand a chance against them.  It's not that they actually want to have a fight where they might lose, they just want the chance to ruin someone else's experience.

The true pvp types are playing other games, other than mmo's.

Originally posted by Bintowe

I've found that most "hardcore" mmo pvp players are nothing more than griefers who like going around and killing people who wouldn't stand a chance against them.  It's not that they actually want to have a fight where they might lose, they just want the chance to ruin someone else's experience.

The true pvp types are playing other games, other than mmo's.

/thread

10/10

It's either this Bintowe, or they are playing MMOs where PvP at the "hardcore" level is much more like a competitive ladder ranked FPS game ala. Arena in WoW.