Originally posted by Khrymson

Originally posted by toddze

God I just hope FFXIV does not use the quest grind model. Sure it would be nice to to get a little xp for doing them, but the major level advancement should come from combat. If weapons play a major role in leveling well It might be hard to justify a quest grind type.

 

It is kinda odd how so many MMOs players post-WoW days are always spamming how much they just want to fight and not be bothered with anything else, and thats exactly what FFXI is all about when it comes to advancing in levels; yet they only want to do quests which is minimal fighting at best...heh

Pal I have been playing MMO's before WoW. I dont like any quest in a quest grind MMO. Its the same ole quest from level 1 to max. they are just dressed up in fansy skins. Another thing that the quest grind does is limit your character to one job. FFXI as you all know you could change jobs? Why? because you were not limited by getting xp through quests which go away after you do it once. Questing xp besides boring limits the game.

I agree that the questing for XP is kinda boring.  Theres no excitement in it and it does limit you very much.  I actually do not play Wow the way it was intended.  I play as a party not solo.  There are 5 of us and since most xp is through questing if one is not on we can not progress that character in any way.  Where as with FFXI I could do quests on my own and not get XP or XP on a different job that way The party is still intact.  I really hope that is not taken away on FFXIV.  I also like the fact that I can play different jobs and learn a little about each. 

I chose other. I didn't mind the amount of time it took to level because that was what made leveling so rewarding, new skills, weapon skills, skill chain it was all in all a good way to pass the time. But what killed me was the time sinkholes that were looking for a party and traveling. If they can make it so that you don't need a perfect party and have to look for hour or more just to find a white mage or ninja then it will be great.

*Keep the amount of time leveling but only if you can quickly sign on and go.
*Flexible party types
*Less boring time wastes, traveling, looking for group.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by Khrymson

Originally posted by toddze

God I just hope FFXIV does not use the quest grind model. Sure it would be nice to to get a little xp for doing them, but the major level advancement should come from combat. If weapons play a major role in leveling well It might be hard to justify a quest grind type.

 

It is kinda odd how so many MMOs players post-WoW days are always spamming how much they just want to fight and not be bothered with anything else, and thats exactly what FFXI is all about when it comes to advancing in levels; yet they only want to do quests which is minimal fighting at best...heh

 

Pal I have been playing MMO's before WoW. I dont like any quest in a quest grind MMO. Its the same ole quest from level 1 to max. they are just dressed up in fansy skins. Another thing that the quest grind does is limit your character to one job. FFXI as you all know you could change jobs? Why? because you were not limited by getting xp through quests which go away after you do it once. Questing xp besides boring limits the game.

That reminds me of when Warhammer was first released and quests became scarce in the mid-30's.  All the WoW-heads were screaming and crying for Mythic to add more quests because the leveling became too slow.  The ironic part is "slow" by their definition was 1-2 weeks from ~35 to cap (50).

Please SE, stick to your guns.  I want another Benihana's, not another McDonald's.

OMG!!!

Now why would u compare FFXIV this game to WoW?  It's like comparing several other million mmorpgs to WoW, seriously. WoW people need to like die and drown because that game is like so stupid, that's why Blizzard are a bunch of losers stealing money from you guys and not even adding cool content. Not to mention Blizzard isn't even focusing other games yet  which is why DIablo 3 and Starcraft 2 took them 10 years to develop. ROFL

Yeah but for you information FFXIV would be a way different game in every aspect than WoW, and it's not gonna be the same as WoW like I was saying comparing a game to WoW. Kind of like a Narutard saying Naruto is the best anime ever is the same as WoW is the best online game ever! Seriously.. so many ignorant WoW people only play WoW and not even paying attention to the world around us.. come on now. <_<

as long as they add massive random factor i would be happy

right thats the problem

start any game toon lvl it to 10 take same class same race etc and you  will redo tho exact same quest to level 10

if game maker added the random factor to say 20 different way to quest it would be a huge improvement

so you play  get tired of healing

you reroll

and just the thot of know all quest by heart often stop you from rerolling

Originally posted by ArmoredPinoy

OMG!!!

Now why would u compare FFXIV this game to WoW?  It's like comparing several other million mmorpgs to WoW, seriously. WoW people need to like die and drown because that game is like so stupid, that's why Blizzard are a bunch of losers stealing money from you guys and not even adding cool content. Not to mention Blizzard isn't even focusing other games yet  which is why DIablo 3 and Starcraft 2 took them 10 years to develop. ROFL

Yeah but for you information FFXIV would be a way different game in every aspect than WoW, and it's not gonna be the same as WoW like I was saying comparing a game to WoW. Kind of like a Narutard saying Naruto is the best anime ever is the same as WoW is the best online game ever! Seriously.. so many ignorant WoW people only play WoW and not even paying attention to the world around us.. come on now. <_<

I don't think they were comparing WoW to FFXIV. Just the play style which many games have in common and wanted to see what people are interested in. Flaming WoW and saying its player base needs to die isn't something that should be brought onto these boards. If you hate it, say you hate it. You don't have to insult the makers of the game or the player base.

On the note of the topic, FFXI was casual, yet hard-core. In my experience I would love for it to be both the way it was. FFXI was an awesome game where you can warm up with casual playing, and then once you hit max level decide if you want to hit up a dynamis/sky/sea LS.

Huge Final Fantasy fan but never did get on FFXI.  Played WoW to end-game content.  I can say it doesn't really matter what it's aimed at, as long as you have friend playing with you (casual or hardcore) it'll be worth playing.  When you talk about MMO's WoW can't not come up, it's the biggest for a reason.  WoW addresses hardcore and casual aspects, while continually changing, listening to both sides, and compromising.  Most MMO's that promise innovation then deliver nothing because they have to make a profit and listen to the hwining casual gamer, well, they have to because they don't have the backing of Blizzard or Square Enix...WoW will most likely be topped by another Blizzard incarnate MMO, just as Final Fantasy fans will flock to FFXIV. 

Most games end up slipping to WoW levels anyway, not to say they slip down..just towards it.  And, no company wants a failing game in their books, though FF has a few (FFX-2 and what not).  Hopefully with ths upcoming FF game they go for innovation, and see what people think...aka, get every type of gamer into beta...though that usually isn't the biggest indicator, as most casual gamers don't request beta-opt ins, hence the casual title.  If you look hard at WoW, you get the option.  You can go from 5-man heroics with buddies during the school year to 10 man nothings with randoms, join a guild that'll gear you than go for end-game content.  Casual to hardcore.  WoW is built that way.  An MMO targeted at hardcore won't get the fanbase or support.  An MMO targeted at casual, well, the same.  Final Fantasy already has a huge fan base, as it's been around forever, and the games are legendary.  If they can truly incorporate everything I love about Final Fantasy into an MMO and it's fun-levels don't die down and continually rise, whether it's like WoW or not, I'm definitely in.  They can just take everything from every final fantasy and MMO it up and I'd be in awe.  Ride in mechs while gathering espers, get on a gold chocobo and go over oceans and mountains, pick up a gunblade and rape, let me play as Vivi, give me multiplayer blitzball, underground towers of babel, a ship to the moon...I honestly would jump at the chance to play an MMORPG that sends me back there, haha.  WoW style?  IDC...make it fun as hell, and show me what FF can really bring back and do, and I'll say screw WoW.

Like WOW?  No thanks.

Now they can take those 'quests' and condense them down into field missions.  I REALLY don't need to look at a block of text telling me the life story of some random NPC just to get me to kill 10 *insert random mob here*

On the other hand, forced grouping is lame.  I want to be able log on and play with my friends, and meet new ones along the way.  I don't want to be forced to play with some friendless loser just because I need another person.

That said, I hope they make it more solo/small group friendly WHILE giving incentives to grouping instead of penalties.

Originally posted by Absolute0

I chose other. I didn't mind the amount of time it took to level because that was what made leveling so rewarding, new skills, weapon skills, skill chain it was all in all a good way to pass the time. But what killed me was the time sinkholes that were looking for a party and traveling. If they can make it so that you don't need a perfect party and have to look for hour or more just to find a white mage or ninja then it will be great.

*Keep the amount of time leveling but only if you can quickly sign on and go.
*Flexible party types
*Less boring time wastes, traveling, looking for group.

I agree on all but how long it took to level. i went for 30 to 40 on my BLM in a few hrs with a good group, and this was shortly after US release...just the problem was i was the only english speaking person in the group and i never got another group like it :(

And man i miss FFXI. the game was definetly rewarding..wish i could say the same about wow><

Originally posted by redsnow

And man i miss FFXI. the game was definetly rewarding

Have we played the same FFXI?!

I voted other and now I'm posting "why"

Two thoughts.. When I played FFXI years ago, I was a hardcore gamer. I devoted most of my time when I wasn't working whatever job I was at to the game because well i really didn't have a lot of responsability or plans or anything I was playing when I wanted and didn't care much about anything else.

Now I'm older, I'm married, I have bills, I can't be that dedicated gamer I used to be. However I still like my games to be challenging, I'm not so casual that I only play once or twice a week but I'm not so hardcore that I'm on constantly.  Genrally I play 2-4 hours a day 4 or 5 days a week sometimes 6

The problem with a discussion like this is there isn't a black and white Casual vs. Hardcore. 

There's a whole scale of grey between the two.

There are people who have no life outside the game and will spend 12+ hours a day on the thing playing, I feel sorry for you too, I used to do that and I was miserable most of the time.

There are people who spend 2-4 hours in the evening every evening playing,

There are people who play all day every day of the weekend.

There are people who spread out play 2 or 3 hours and and there a few times a week 2-3 days.

So to make a judgement on whether it should be Hardcore or Casual... How to you define either one?

Definately Hardcore is those 12hour+ a day players, and Causal in the extreme sense are those people who play for 1 or 2 hours every other day or 2-3 days a week.

Ultimately the answer is that if someone spends their money to play they should get some kind of enjoyment or experience for their buck.

Ultimately I know hardcore gamers hate it but not everyone can be as dedicated and not have a life like you do. Some of us have families, jobs, dont live in our moms basement.

Ultimately in my opinion the game needs to be a little of both and more of a middle ground between Ultimate Hardcore and  Pansy Casual. I call it Hardcasual.

 WoW is not time consuming And easy. That kind of casual.

FFXI is mostly time consuming And easy too. That kind of hardcore.

I want neither. The casual I want is the type that doesn't consume lot of my playtime, not the one that makes everything easy.  Challenging/tactical fights but without the time sinks.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

 WoW is not time consuming And easy. That kind of casual.

FFXI is mostly time consuming And easy too. That kind of hardcore.

I want neither. The casual I want is the type that doesn't consume lot of my playtime, not the one that makes everything easy.  Challenging/tactical fights but without the time sinks.

I am starting to wonder if you ever even played ffxi past level 50. especilaly with your comment about missing how ffxi is not rewarding a few posts above. ZM/Sea access was not easy. getting HNM gear is not easy. If you think getting an HNM drop isnt rewarding, you either 1: never got one or 2: Botted to get it. thats just one of many examples

Sky raids are easy and a grind that asspect is just like wow without the instances. Instances just dumb it down furter in wow. You know you will get it all, its just a matter of time. which makes it a timesink/grind.

FFXI is as time consuming as you make it. As long as you had a couple hours you could do stuff. Towards the end of my FFXI career I would only log on a couple hours to do dynamis and help on raids, on raid night.

Originally posted by toddze

 I am starting to wonder if you ever even played ffxi past level 50. especilaly with your comment about missing how ffxi is not rewarding a few posts above. ZM/Sea access was not easy. getting HNM gear is not easy. If you think getting an HNM drop isnt rewarding, you either 1: never got one or 2: Botted to get it. thats just one of many examples

Sky raids are easy and a grind that asspect is just like wow without the instances. Instances just dumb it down furter in wow. You know you will get it all, its just a matter of time. which makes it a timesink/grind.

FFXI is as time consuming as you make it. As long as you had a couple hours you could do stuff. Towards the end of my FFXI career I would only log on a couple hours to do dynamis and help on raids, on raid night.

I have indeed gotten to 75, no question about that.  I still can't imagine how FFXI was rewarding (except for the feeling of accomplishment), even to get the most casual pieces of gear you had to spam the event for like 3~4 months to get the full set.. and all the Salvages I did the effort/reward ratio was even worse.. 2 years of 3-4 runs a week for 5 pieces of equipment.. Sure it felt good to finish a set but compared to the times I got kicked in the nuts by horrible drop rate, it didn't feel that rewarding imo.

But still, it never felt challenging. Only time consuming. Dynamis was rarely a challenge: kill easy mobs over and over again hoping for drop. Kirin, Omega and few Salvage bosses were quite difficult the first time around, but they could be a looot more challenging, too.  Salvage itself was a nice challenge which I liked, but it wasn't really the difficulty that made it challenging. 99% of the mobs are easy.. and the hardest bosses ain't that hard either.

But I'm not bashing FFXI by any means, it's still the best MMO I've played by far. I've just realized the downsides, no game is perfect, and  I accepted the flaws of FFXI's systems.. why would I be playing otherwise? ;)

Originally posted by Hyanmen

 

 I still can't imagine how FFXI was rewarding (except for the feeling of accomplishment),

I guess I dont understand this.

To me the feeling of accomplishment is the only rewarding part.

Originally posted by toddze

 

I guess I dont understand this.

To me the feeling of accomplishment is the only rewarding part.

 

Items, exp, equipment, gil and so on. XI had never a good effort/reward ratio... but whatever you got you deserved. 

---

Originally posted by toddze

---

Originally posted by Hyanmen 

 I still can't imagine how FFXI was rewarding (except for the feeling of accomplishment),

---

 
I guess I dont understand this.
To me the feeling of accomplishment is the only rewarding part.

---

Bingo. Unfortunately, WoW has brain-washed the MMO crowd into thinking that the only worthwhile rewards are the epic items that you get. It's the carrot-on-a-stick mentality and it's what they use to keep people playing. I never had all that great gear in FFXI, even at 75, but my accomplishments were many times more rewarding and memorable than any of my "purples" from WoW.

Originally posted by Sixpax

carrot-on-a-stick

D00D I have that carrot on a stick ... it is nifty it makes my horse go faster.

Anywho ... joking aside. I even find that kind of mentality in FFXI so it isn't just with WoW players.

Take for example the RIse of the Zilart expansion. Everyone got to sky and then stopped because now they can get their "god gear." Then they went and did Divine Might to get their earring instead of doing Arc Angels because there was no reward for Arc Angels but there is for Divine Might even though the two will open up the final mission for ZM. No one was even interested in doing AA then going back and doing DM later ...

And speaking of that final mission ... no one ever even express interest in until CoP came out and the majority of those people got past those missions. Then all of a sudden people were interested in doing ZM so people can do the mission after that to get their new earring. Why not finish ZM even though you were a misison away. The usual answer I got was "There is no point that is no reward for finishing it."

I don't know about all of you. When I beat ToAU I wasn't thrilled about getting a ring (which i rarely think about using) or a crown (which is on my mannaquin), my reward was the sense that I finished the story, the sense that I defeated a foe others were failing at, and the screen cap of my kill shot on Alexander. (and interesting story since my leader wanted to stop b/c he though we took too much time killing the BLU that we wasted 2-3 minutes while I convinced him to press forward)

Still brings a smile to my face

Anywho ... i wish others got satifaction with this game other than just digital items. There is so much more to life let alone this game than the pixels your toon is waring.

Originally posted by ic0n67

Originally posted by Sixpax

carrot-on-a-stick

D00D I have that carrot on a stick ... it is nifty it makes my horse go faster.

Anywho ... joking aside. I even find that kind of mentality in FFXI so it isn't just with WoW players.

Take for example the RIse of the Zilart expansion. Everyone got to sky and then stopped because now they can get their "god gear." Then they went and did Divine Might to get their earring instead of doing Arc Angels because there was no reward for Arc Angels but there is for Divine Might even though the two will open up the final mission for ZM. No one was even interested in doing AA then going back and doing DM later ...

And speaking of that final mission ... no one ever even express interest in until CoP came out and the majority of those people got past those missions. Then all of a sudden people were interested in doing ZM so people can do the mission after that to get their new earring. Why not finish ZM even though you were a misison away. The usual answer I got was "There is no point that is no reward for finishing it."

I don't know about all of you. When I beat ToAU I wasn't thrilled about getting a ring (which i rarely think about using) or a crown (which is on my mannaquin), my reward was the sense that I finished the story, the sense that I defeated a foe others were failing at, and the screen cap of my kill shot on Alexander. (and interesting story since my leader wanted to stop b/c he though we took too much time killing the BLU that we wasted 2-3 minutes while I convinced him to press forward)

Still brings a smile to my face

Anywho ... i wish others got satifaction with this game other than just digital items. There is so much more to life let alone this game than the pixels your toon is waring.

Well you're sort of disagreeing with me and agreeing with me all at the same time.  Sure there are carrots in FFXI, but people (like yourself) also tackled things just for the bragging rights and the sense of accomplishment it brought.  Like getting to rank 10 or whatever.   Many of the FFXI accomplishements have nothing to do with gear.  Even killing NM's and HNM's was more rewarding for the kill than the actual gear.  The gear was just an added bonus.

>.> 

No bragging rights ... I don't care what other people thinking of me about winning something nor do I rub it in. It is my own personal memories that I take out of it.

and just incase anyone was confused: Carrot-on-a-Stick

I liked FF online when it came out. I thought, "hell yeah another FF game and online to boot," well thats what I thought in the begining. Long story short, I wanted to get into the storyline for FF XI online, cause I maybe weird but I really do like games for their storylines but because the game took so much time and co-op, I never really got to experience most of the story. I touched on a lot of the begning storyline only to be halted because I could not get a group together or ppl had already done that part of the storyline and did not want to do it again. I played the game for about 2 years or so, yeah I had fun but to not really be able to get into the storyline really got to me, so in the end I just found a web page with the storyline and quit FF XI. If FF XIV is really going to be aimed at the causual user then I might just pick it up when it comes out. Maybe they can tweak the toughness of the mobs in missions depending on your group "strength" that way if you only have a group of four instead of six, you can still do the mission and get to play the game. Also make it so that when a mob is easy prey, it really is easy prey. Although one good thing did come from FF XI, lol it tought me to be more patient, so now grinding in any game isn't that bad anymore.

I would definitely like it if they made it a little more casual player friendly. I mean as players grow older and such they develop more and more responsibilities limiting the time they can devote to a game so by making a little bit more casual friendly may pull in more players in the long run. One problem I did have with FFXI was that if you didn't play for a month your character was deleted. I personally hated this feature because I like to jump around and play pretty much every new mmo that comes out to see how they play; now to delete a character that I work so hard on, only discourages me as a player/customer I only hope that when this comes out this will not be a feature in the game.

Another problem I had with FFXI was the lack of quests in the game, there was only a handful of quests and most of the game revolved around grinding. Now before people get on me for QQing about grinding; I've grinded before in Everquest one of first MMOs, which the only way to level was to grind, but that was then and this is now. We've come a long way from those games and a little more side story couldn't hurt, I enjoy reading quest text and learning more about the world, but when a game only has grinding what's the point? Having an NPC ask you to kill some snakes or something because they need materials to make boots adds to the immersion a little; killing crawlers ten thousand times not so much. I'm not asking the dev's to dumb this game down to retard level like WoW, by adding in all these things to make you level up faster like rested exp, bonus exp weekends, recruit a friend, and all that nonsense, but maybe just make things a tad bit more casual player friendly.

WOW's aim isn't at the casual player... it's focus is mainly on the terrible player.  The game has been getting easier and easier as content comes out, and if by some chance something is hard... it becomes dumbed down to the point that these terrible players can actually win at it.  

There is only one thing that WOW did that I'd say is even worth mentioning, everything else in WOW can rot for all I care.

1. Gear resets every 3-4 months so that 'casuals' can catch up... one of the most retarded things I have ever laid eyes upon.  Gear resets in general to me are retarded, and one of my favorite things about FFXI is that gear you got from sky was still good even when more expansions came out.
2. Leveling in WOW is one of the biggest jokes ever.  It was really easy and very quick.  To make it even somewhat challenging people have been known to try to level without any gear, skipping training, or just not going down any skill trees.  When a game is so easy that you can succeed even when you gimp yourself that harshly... there is something seriously wrong.  What is the rush with getting to the end, I enjoyed FFXI slow pace, and hope that is prevalent in FFXIV.
3. Bosses in WOW are fun, and I would love to see more interesting fights in FFXIV.  I am not saying FFXI didn't have any interesting raid encounters, but they were kind of few and far between.  If FFXIV can give fights with the challenges of the fights in FFXI and uniqueness that WOW brings, I think it'd be amazing.

I will say this, I did love the group dynamic in FFXI, but waiting 4 hours for a party was pretty harsh.  I really do hope that when they say you can solo, it doesn't equate to being easier then partying.  Soloing should always be a viable option for easier quests/missions and progressing your character through however you gain stats, but I think grouping should always be the preferred way of wanting to progress through the game.

No No No No No no NOOOOOO a thousand million times NO.  WoW actually started as hardcore as other games, but in its current state its just a insult to the MMO community as a whole.