In the days before release, November/ December 08'

There was alot of talk about getting investors onboard, and there was some news links.

Suppose AV built a publishing company fully knowing they would be the publishers, however the company did not have capitol to support an mmo release, so they decide to incorperate cash investors to the company and offer them equal share. This puts in motion the EU1 release.

In order to commit to a US1 release they could potentially use the same company to publish the game... but what if the current investors are not interested in putting up that money?

So Tasos and crew build another company and find more investors to act in the same manner as the prior company. Perhaps its this very reason that they were able to negotiate a reduced price in transfer accounts, they would be sacrificing thier shares.

With the investor race that hit in the early days of launch I could propose this be a possible situation. Even though there could be multiple AV's the shares payout could be 2 totally different groups of people even if Tasos and crew are named in each company.

Just my idea on what could be happening...

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

<Mod Edit>

This has been posted for you before to give you an idea of publisher responsibilities: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_publisher

While it may not be complete, it should give a general idea. Additionally, numerous posters have explained publisher responsibilities to you in the past.

yes they would also have the responsibility of making the games presence known and that would include box advertising/package design, and setting up reviews and such They would be the middleman to GNI buying server bandwidth to host the game, collecting the fee's "potential collection through a 3rd party like eu1"

The art end is the dfo developement team - also part of the customer service side "in game problems"

The business end is the publisher - also customer service "but account problems and stuff"

The publisher can outsource almost all the tasks and just be responsible for making sure the artists and programmers get paid.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
<Mod Edit>

Not sure anyone will debate that. A publisher could be great or mediocre for DarkFall. I think that about sums up the past week or two of conversation. Welcome aboard.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

<Mod Edit>

I'm pretty sure this has been addressed in your previous queries, but I'll bite. Traditionally, video game publisher's duties include: 

• Funding development
• Managing Accounts and billing
• Marketing the product
• Distributing the product

Publishers tend to give developers the freedom to develop the game without having to worry about how they're going to pay for development costs and resources, but there can be drawbacks, since the publisher might want to force the developer to stick to a schedule, implement changes to make the game more marketable, etc.  It's not uncommon for a developer to fold  if they lose their publisher.  An example of a "close call" for an independent studio is Spacetime Studios in Austin, which had major RIFs (Reductions in Force) after NCSoft pulled their funding.  The studio survived, barely, until it was able to pick up a new publisher.

In Aventurine's case, AudioVisual is the publisher for Europe, but they don't appear to have performed most of the traditional publishing duties. The only thing they appear to have done for Darkfall is manage the accounts/billing system and they don't seem to have done that very well.  So, why are they the publishers in the first place?  Probably because they invested in the game. Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be any benefit to having them involved at all.

At the very highest level, the simple answer to your question is "A publisher pays for development".  Without a publisher, the studio is left to their own devices to obtain funding in order to pay for development and resources.  The studio specializes in game development, whereas the publisher specializes in business.  While it's possible for a studio to self publish and be financially successful, thereby ensuring the overall success of the game, it's very unlikely.

~Ripper

Nevermind

Originally posted by mklinic

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
<Mod Edit>

Not sure anyone will debate that. A publisher could be great or mediocre for DarkFall. I think that about sums up the past week or two of conversation. Welcome aboard.

I think this is where I keep asking the question and people keep "no answering" (to put it one way).

What I mean is the publisher really has nothing whatsoever to do with the game at all EXCEPT for bringing in more players to the same game.

Thats it, nothing , nada, nothiong more whatsoever.

So, questions about who the publisher is seems to only apply to those that like the game but wish more people played it so they could have a better experience.

With that, I will say the community itself could be its own publisher however with a lot of neigtiive posts it just has the opposite affect.

Originally posted by mklinic

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
<Mod Edit>

Not sure anyone will debate that. A publisher could be great or mediocre for DarkFall. I think that about sums up the past week or two of conversation. Welcome aboard.

Yup.

He doesn't know what a publisher does.  He doesn't think they are important.  He doesn't think DarkFall needs one.

Yet, he wants to tell all of us that we are wrong on our opinions of what a good publisher can do for DarkFall.  Might make sense for some, but I'm just not seeing it.

Again...

IF you are happy with how the Advertising, Distribution, and Release went for the European launch of DarkFall then...

yeah a publisher isn't important.  Self-publish, spin a bottle, pick one out of a hat, etc.

IF you are UNhappy with how Advertising, Distribution, and Release went for the European launch of DarkFall then...

YES a publisher matters!

Originally posted by xzyax

Yup.

He doesn't know what a publisher does.  He doesn't think they are important.  He doesn't think DarkFall needs one.

 

Yet, he wants to tell all of us that we are wrong on our opinions of what a good publisher can do for DarkFall.  Might make sense for some, but I'm just not seeing it.

 

Again...

IF you are happy with how the Advertising, Distribution, and Release went for the European launch of DarkFall then...

yeah a publisher isn't important.  Self-publish, spin a bottle, pick one out of a hat, etc.

 

IF you are UNhappy with how Advertising, Distribution, and Release went for the European launch of DarkFall then...

YES a publisher matters!

Concerns on this subject would apply to those who like and enjoy the game itself but wish more people would play and would like to see the game continue as it is but with more people

All other concens do not apply to publishing.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I think this is where I keep asking the question and people keep "no answering" (to put it one way).

What I mean is the publisher really has nothing whatsoever to do with the game at all EXCEPT for bringing in more players to the same game.

Thats it, nothing , nada, nothiong more whatsoever.

So, questions about who the publisher is seems to only apply to those that like the game but wish more people played it so they could have a better experience.

With that, I will say the community itself could be its own publisher however with a lot of neigtiive posts it just has the opposite affect.

 

Keep in mind that there is a difference between "no answering" and someone not answering the way you want. As this has been discussed pretty well in numerous threads where you have brought it up, I'll give you the short version: If the publisher takes an interest in augmenting AV's finances, that would be a good thing for the game. If the publisher is just AV by another name, then it doesn't really do much besides afford them an excuse to charge again in many peoples eyes. If they get a publisher that isn't really doing much then that could be a negative as well since they aren't doing anything on the marketing side of things.

Now, it's been disccused how more money could help AV. It's been discussed how more customers, a.k.a. more money, could help AV and the other players. It's also been discussed how a little competent marketing could help AV. Really, I don't see a problem with people wanting to know who the publisher is and what the publisher can do to help improve the game and it's image regardless of whether that is of interest to you or not.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by xxxfistxxx

 

In the days before release, November/ December 08'

There was alot of talk about getting investors onboard, and there was some news links.

Suppose AV built a publishing company fully knowing they would be the publishers, however the company did not have capitol to support an mmo release, so they decide to incorperate cash investors to the company and offer them equal share. This puts in motion the EU1 release.

In order to commit to a US1 release they could potentially use the same company to publish the game... but what if the current investors are not interested in putting up that money?

So Tasos and crew build another company and find more investors to act in the same manner as the prior company. Perhaps its this very reason that they were able to negotiate a reduced price in transfer accounts, they would be sacrificing thier shares.

With the investor race that hit in the early days of launch I could propose this be a possible situation. Even though there could be multiple AV's the shares payout could be 2 totally different groups of people even if Tasos and crew are named in each company.

Just my idea on what could be happening...

 

what exactly does a publisher do anyway? This could be the source of my confusion.

Doesnt a publisher basically make the box and put it in the stores and NOTHING else?

Your 30+ years old....  and have no idea what a publisher does?  Yet, for months you've said it doesn't matter and have argued such points.

Incredible!

Originally posted by rhinok

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

what exactly does a publisher do anyway? This could be the source of my confusion.

Doesnt a publisher basically make the box and put it in the stores and NOTHING else?

 

I'm pretty sure this has been addressed in your previous queries, but I'll bite. Traditionally, video game publisher's duties include: 

• Funding development
• Managing Accounts and billing
• Marketing the product
• Distributing the product

Publishers tend to give developers the freedom to develop the game without having to worry about how they're going to pay for development costs and resources, but there can be drawbacks, since the publisher might want to force the developer to stick to a schedule, implement changes to make the game more marketable, etc.  It's not uncommon for a developer to fold  if they lose their publisher.  An example of a "close call" for an independent studio is Spacetime Studios in Austin, which had major RIFs (Reductions in Force) after NCSoft pulled their funding.  The studio survived, barely, until it was able to pick up a new publisher.

In Aventurine's case, AudioVisual is the publisher for Europe, but they don't appear to have performed most of the traditional publishing duties. The only thing they appear to have done for Darkfall is manage the accounts/billing system and they don't seem to have done that very well.  So, why are they the publishers in the first place?  Probably because they invested in the game. Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be any benefit to having them involved at all.

At the very highest level, the simple answer to your question is "A publisher pays for development".  Without a publisher, the studio is left to their own devices to obtain funding in order to pay for development and resources.  The studio specializes in game development, whereas the publisher specializes in business.  While it's possible for a studio to self publish and be financially successful, thereby ensuring the overall success of the game, it's very unlikely.

~Ripper

 

This^^ ..........!!

Originally posted by Phelcher

Originally posted by rhinok

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

what exactly does a publisher do anyway? This could be the source of my confusion.

Doesnt a publisher basically make the box and put it in the stores and NOTHING else?

 

I'm pretty sure this has been addressed in your previous queries, but I'll bite. Traditionally, video game publisher's duties include: 

• Funding development
• Managing Accounts and billing
• Marketing the product
• Distributing the product

Publishers tend to give developers the freedom to develop the game without having to worry about how they're going to pay for development costs and resources, but there can be drawbacks, since the publisher might want to force the developer to stick to a schedule, implement changes to make the game more marketable, etc.  It's not uncommon for a developer to fold  if they lose their publisher.  An example of a "close call" for an independent studio is Spacetime Studios in Austin, which had major RIFs (Reductions in Force) after NCSoft pulled their funding.  The studio survived, barely, until it was able to pick up a new publisher.

In Aventurine's case, AudioVisual is the publisher for Europe, but they don't appear to have performed most of the traditional publishing duties. The only thing they appear to have done for Darkfall is manage the accounts/billing system and they don't seem to have done that very well.  So, why are they the publishers in the first place?  Probably because they invested in the game. Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be any benefit to having them involved at all.

At the very highest level, the simple answer to your question is "A publisher pays for development".  Without a publisher, the studio is left to their own devices to obtain funding in order to pay for development and resources.  The studio specializes in game development, whereas the publisher specializes in business.  While it's possible for a studio to self publish and be financially successful, thereby ensuring the overall success of the game, it's very unlikely.

~Ripper

 

 

 

This^^ ..........!!

 

which again only applies to people who enjoy the game itself and simply want a few more people on the server.

thats it, pretty much nothing at all to be honest.

If you need a broader sense of what a publisher is, take a glance at Acclaim and it's involvement with TCoS. Publishers can also deal with servers and hosting in situations where the client is distributed digitally like TCoS is. They would also support a download site if needed and forums.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by mklinic

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I looked it over and it does seem to suggest mostly what I have just said.

Publishers main role is to advertise and get the boxes in the stores. They do have, in some cases, creative direction and code base to work from. That said, in the context of DF I think the publisher they select isnt going to change the game at all whatsoever. It MAY however, create more servers but given the fact that your personal gaming experience is usually limited to one server that doesnt matter much.

Additionally, when publishers are selected publishers do it at a cost. In other words, they either take money up front or take part of your profit. Given that, having a large or small publisher doesnt mean there will be more money for developers although it MIGHT.

Not sure anyone will debate that. A publisher could be great or mediocre for DarkFall. I think that about sums up the past week or two of conversation. Welcome aboard.

 

I think this is where I keep asking the question and people keep "no answering" (to put it one way).

What I mean is the publisher really has nothing whatsoever to do with the game at all EXCEPT for bringing in more players to the same game.

Thats it, nothing , nada, nothiong more whatsoever.

So, questions about who the publisher is seems to only apply to those that like the game but wish more people played it so they could have a better experience.

With that, I will say the community itself could be its own publisher however with a lot of neigtiive posts it just has the opposite affect.

 

Umm... WOW!

o.k. I'll be easier on you than most.

MCFLY!   We are talking about an MMO here!

THE MOST important part for a MMO to stay running is the number of players!

The number of players a MMO has is like gas to a car.  Also like gas in the car the players need to be continually coming in.  All MMOs have churn (the number of players that leave each month).  DarkFall has a higher churn-rate than most.

Are you starting to see why a good publisher matters?  Are you starting to see why bringing in more players is necessary?

If not, then you'll probably see DarkFall joining the ranks of Tabula Rasa and Hellgate London. 

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by mklinic

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I looked it over and it does seem to suggest mostly what I have just said.

Publishers main role is to advertise and get the boxes in the stores. They do have, in some cases, creative direction and code base to work from. That said, in the context of DF I think the publisher they select isnt going to change the game at all whatsoever. It MAY however, create more servers but given the fact that your personal gaming experience is usually limited to one server that doesnt matter much.

Additionally, when publishers are selected publishers do it at a cost. In other words, they either take money up front or take part of your profit. Given that, having a large or small publisher doesnt mean there will be more money for developers although it MIGHT.

Not sure anyone will debate that. A publisher could be great or mediocre for DarkFall. I think that about sums up the past week or two of conversation. Welcome aboard.

I think this is where I keep asking the question and people keep "no answering" (to put it one way).

What I mean is the publisher really has nothing whatsoever to do with the game at all EXCEPT for bringing in more players to the same game.

Thats it, nothing , nada, nothiong more whatsoever.

So, questions about who the publisher is seems to only apply to those that like the game but wish more people played it so they could have a better experience.

With that, I will say the community itself could be its own publisher however with a lot of neigtiive posts it just has the opposite affect.

You're wrong and it's been explained multiple times to you.  I'm finsihed with you and your feigned obtusness and attempts to obfuscate valid points.

 ~Ripper

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

which again only applies to people who enjoy the game itself and simply want a few more people on the server.

thats it, pretty much nothing at all to be honest.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by xzyax

Yup.

He doesn't know what a publisher does.  He doesn't think they are important.  He doesn't think DarkFall needs one.

 

Yet, he wants to tell all of us that we are wrong on our opinions of what a good publisher can do for DarkFall.  Might make sense for some, but I'm just not seeing it.

 

Again...

IF you are happy with how the Advertising, Distribution, and Release went for the European launch of DarkFall then...

yeah a publisher isn't important.  Self-publish, spin a bottle, pick one out of a hat, etc.

 

IF you are UNhappy with how Advertising, Distribution, and Release went for the European launch of DarkFall then...

YES a publisher matters!

 

Concerns on this subject would apply to those who like and enjoy the game itself but wish more people would play and would like to see the game continue as it is but with more people

All other concens do not apply to publishing.

And that's the problem...

Fewer and fewer players are liking and enjoying the game.  Their latest update notes have a few from the forums excited again... good to see.  It won't last though if they butcher it like they did the original release.

A MMO takes players to continue.  DarkFall has very few players.  If the trend continues... DarkFall will not. 

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

I think this is where I keep asking the question and people keep "no answering" (to put it one way).

What I mean is the publisher really has nothing whatsoever to do with the game at all EXCEPT for bringing in more players to the same game.

Thats it, nothing , nada, nothiong more whatsoever.

So, questions about who the publisher is seems to only apply to those that like the game but wish more people played it so they could have a better experience.

With that, I will say the community itself could be its own publisher however with a lot of neigtiive posts it just has the opposite affect.

 

From what I have seen there are 2 different reasons people ask who the publisher is,

1. If AV is lieing and there is no NA publisher, then that means they are demanding 50$ more for absolutely no reason other than to line their pockets. This is actually illegal in the United States and if they sell any product in the US using these practices they can be brought to trial, no matter what country they are based in. By representing their fees as publishing fees for a publisher that does not exist they are commiting fraud.
2. If AV does have a publisher people wish to know who because the major reason any company looks for a publisher is for funding. Although the publisher has no direct effect on the code (In most cases) they do provide the funding for the company to expand on the product and realise the complete product. If AV has a large publisher this is a great thing for them, however if they have a small or unprofessional publisher it could result in less additional funding and bad publicity.

Either way, people have a very good reason to want to know who this unknown publisher is. AV needs more funding, many posters (Rhinok most noteably) have made very good posts explaining that atm AV isnt even capable of turning a profit of any large margin. A publisher may be able to help AV peice together this game and make a successful venture, or cost them a much needed large NA launch and cost them litterally millions of dollars.

Originally posted by xzyax

Umm... WOW!

 

o.k. I'll be easier on you than most.

 

MCFLY!   We are talking about an MMO here!

THE MOST important part for a MMO to stay running is the number of players!

 

The number of players a MMO has is like gas to a car.  Also like gas in the car the players need to be continually coming in.  All MMOs have churn (the number of players that leave each month).  DarkFall has a higher churn-rate than most.

 

Are you starting to see why a good publisher matters?  Are you starting to see why bringing in more players is necessary?

 

If not, then you'll probably see DarkFall joining the ranks of Tabula Rasa and Hellgate London. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is basically exactly what I just said execpt that I added ..

that if you are displeased with the actual game then a publisher will not change that becuase the publsher only affects the number of players which yes does affect your game play to a point but in all honesty if you have one full server and you are on it then the publisher doesnt make a difference to your gaming experience, the game does.

I'd suggest not replying to any of seanmcads posts, hes just trying to build his post count and trolls. Most of his so called questions have been answered many times in both these forums and the official DF ones.

Originally posted by BoA*

I'd suggest not replying to any of seanmcads posts, hes just trying to build his post count and trolls. Most of his so called questions have been answered many times in both these forums and the official DF ones.

Yup.  I agree.

I'll not be quoting anything from him again.  Sadly he has joined the ranks of Darth, javac, and robertb

They can troll if they want to... but they will be invisible to me now. 

The point I was trying to convey, is this.

Even if AV is self  publishing in EU they could have a separate AV holding that contains a different set of US investors for the NA launch, that means they would still have to be responsible for selling the game all over again, to satisfy a whole other group of investors, even though they are self publishing the title there as well.

The shares of this contract held by Tasos and crew could account for the discounted transfer fee we have been hearing about.

Its possible for one company to have several franchises comprised of  some or all the same people. 

Originally posted by xxxfistxxx

The point I was trying to convey, is this.

Even if AV is self  publishing in EU they could have a separate AV holding that contains a different set of US investors for the NA launch, that means they would still have to be responsible for selling the game all over again, to satisfy a whole other group of investors, even though they are self publishing the title there as well.

The shares of this contract held by Tasos and crew could account for the discounted transfer fee we have been hearing about.

Its possible for one company to have several franchises comprised of  some or all the same people. 

That is true.

You will also have to admit though that when companies do that it is sometimes for unethcial reasons.  Enron anyone?

Some have already stated that they have absolutely no problems supporting an unethical or unprincipled company. 

There are some players though that is NOT the case for.  

Originally posted by xzyax

Originally posted by xxxfistxxx

The point I was trying to convey, is this.

Even if AV is self  publishing in EU they could have a separate AV holding that contains a different set of US investors for the NA launch, that means they would still have to be responsible for selling the game all over again, to satisfy a whole other group of investors, even though they are self publishing the title there as well.

The shares of this contract held by Tasos and crew could account for the discounted transfer fee we have been hearing about.

Its possible for one company to have several franchises comprised of  some or all the same people. 

 

That is true.

You will also have to admit though that when companies do that it is sometimes for unethcial reasons.  Enron anyone?

 

Some have already stated that they have absolutely no problems supporting an unethical or unprincipled company. 

There are some players though that is NOT the case for.  

It could also be...

They established funding for the EU and launch say those investors had no interest in being part of the US launch, where does that put AV...

Establishing a second company with the same roll as the first, except to fund the US launch.

Ethically it would the only way to release in the US. It actually puts them in a shit sandwich sort of situation.