Thanks Sanya, another great article.

Wasn't it Southpark that sort of re-popularized the casual derogatory use of "gay?" For them, it worked, because they were having a go at the culture which had created the kids who said it. Since Southpark fans then re-appropriated it, they bled out any kind of irony and now while the word doesn't carry the same degree of hatred that it did say back in the eighties, its almost worse with the casuality its slung about with. 

As one of the posters said, its all about context. The kind of swearing you read in online games has become more offensive for me in recent years because it describes a culture of ignorance and misanthropy which, through the anonymity of the web, has been allowed to thrive. 

Always nice to see someone railing against it. And in the case of this article, great to hear of at least one occaision where there's a ray of hope.

---

Originally posted by wolffin
I have a question. If he had been calling a person of European decent a "cracker" would they have been banned with in 2 minutes?

---

Probably not, because the history behind that word is very different, the flipside of the coin, as it were. A word used to reject those who oppress is very different from a word used to reinforce oppression, don't you agree?

Sanya, It's funny to see someone with a stereotypical attitude about MMO player's opinionate grammer from a 12yr old retard and write a column about it..

The best part is while your snickering and passing CSR tickets to your buddies the customers with real game mechanic issues get stonewalled by what you call "Customer Service"  Would be nice to actually see a CSR fix an issue instead of getting the standard response of "No we can't help you, and Have a Nice Day" but we all know those escalated tickets with REAL problems are a higher paygrade then what you were doing. Everyone knows your Job was a glorified retard filter so I can see why these types of columns probably come up a LOT.

I know after so many years of having prepubescent teens groveling at your feet it's actually hard for you to believe that someone would actually submit a Bug Report and not care what you do with it. But it DOES happen. It happens because unlike the basement dwelers your used to associating with, they probably won't be playing your BUG infested game for longer then 8 months to see it get resolved.

PS. LOTRO community is full of over emotional women/men who need to plug and get laid or  jump off a bridge IRL. and no I didn't submit the ticket incase your wondering :)

Zorvan/kalagaraz win.

As much as I like what they are trying to stand for, the people going against Zorvan sound like ignorant, immature morons that think they're figured out something in life that they really haven't.

Saying "Nigger" in some situations might be perfectly acceptable and completely offensive in others. This is true with all potentially offensive words. It's knowing when a word has an alternative meaning to your audience and when it is acceptable to use it in that sense, that is important. Banning the use altogether is a sign of immaturity or narrow-mindedness above anything else, not maturity

It's always fun seeing self-proclaimed "mature adults" reveal their binary view to the world. Life isn't rendered in black and whit. Other shades lay inbetween....sing with me!

 I am all about people getting banned for being abusive, disruptive bastards when it comes to being on MMORPGs.  I'm even okay with folks getting banned if all they do is get online and let out strings of curse words miles wide.

The trouble I have with MMOs these days, and it -really has- just started being a problem with me, is cursing.

Basically every MMORPG and other game of its class has got some variety of rule that bans cursing in a public forum, which I find absolutely ridiculous.  Partially, this has to do with the fact that cursing is a part of my language; I was brought up talking that way, and for better or worse, swearing works its way into my conversations even when they're polite and at ease.  When I'm ripping into someone, as a rule, I'll do it with no cursing at all, as I feel that adding curse words to an otherwise perfectly legitimate argument (I don't rip into someone without having reason to) lightens the blow; my imagery gets better when I don't curse, although I'm perfectly happy with it if I'm not aggravated.

That said, I also police myself relatively well.  Whereas most people who are poster-children for anti-Internet-swearing will go anywhere from the simple 'fuk u' in General chat to the outright lengthy strings of obscenities and racial or sexual slurs without any particular thread or narrative involved, I have a tendency to be at least remotely friendly when I swear.

My best example for the moment would be on the beta for the new, free DDO.  I said something along the lines of 'You are a fuckin' rockstar, man!' after a friend had pulled me out of a nasty situation, and woke up the next day to find myself banned.

Just a week or so earlier I was on Warhammer Online, and I'd cursed a few times that day, but the real clincher was when the guild leader of one of my server's biggest guilds make a few ridiculously poor, reckless decisions that ended up costing him his entire force; he wiped twice on a force just a little over half his size because he was doing something flagrantly wrong.  I told him so, not gently but without cursing, and suggested a course of action which he could take to improve.  He took that course of action, and reported me for the curses uttered hours earlier, which got me a ban.  It was later confirmed by one of his guildmates that he did it not because I had cursed and he was insulted (and, by the way, the profanity filter in WAR is on by default and you -must- turn it off to hear profanity) but rather because I had made him look like an idiot in front of his guild, and he didn't like it.

That was my first ban, to be followed within two weeks by two -more- bans from two entirely separate games... one of which I was banned for -directly copying and pasting from NPC text-.

I have not changed my speaking habits (indeed, I curse less now than ever) and these are the first three violation bans I have had in literally over a decade of playing online games, from MUDs to UO to Asheron's Call and onwards to the present.

MMORPG.com's got a great profanity rule, I think; the occasional 'bad word' is fine, says the Code of Conduct, but swear-laden threads and profanity-filled rants are not.  That's great.  That's the rule I'd like to happen in -every- game, because it would keep the twelve-year-olds who just learned all their curses in line, and keep folks like me, an older guy with a propensity towards using foul language for emphasis rather than attack, relatively safe.

Sadly, that is not the case.  Zero-tolerance policies being the Thing To Do lately, we're ending up with a 'cleaner' Internet at the expense of guys like me.  I sometimes find solace with the occasional GM that understands the difference between a cursing row and a swear used in normal, calm speech.  For the most part, however, GMs say 'the rules are the rules' and just toss me right off the Internet.

More power to you, I guess, but I find that picking on folks who -use- rather than -abuse- curses simply because we do some of the things the kiddies do... well, a little unfair, I suppose.  Such is the case with any policy that says 'This Thing Is Not Allowed'.

It makes me sad, but people think it's the only way.

That -also- makes me sad.

Originally posted by kaydinv

Saying "Nigger" in some situations might be perfectly acceptable and completely offensive in others.

Tell me of one situation in which I, with my pale skin, could say said n-bomb and it would be acceptable. I sure as sin can't think of one. If the situation where it would be acceptable is "the speaker is possessed of a high melanin-count", then there's something very wrong about the whole argument, there.

As well, you undermine your own argument by calling your opponents immature and the like. This does not make it more likely anyone will take you seriously. Insulting people is not a great way to get them to listen.

KirinRahl: You illustrate some serious issues, there. Zero-tolerance policies tend to cause more problems than they help, and banning someone for praising another player emphatically seems, well, extremely dumb. A more sensible attitude towards the use of language in general might behoove these companies.

Originally posted by KirinRahl

 I am all about people getting banned for being abusive, disruptive bastards when it comes to being on MMORPGs.  I'm even okay with folks getting banned if all they do is get online and let out strings of curse words miles wide.

The trouble I have with MMOs these days, and it -really has- just started being a problem with me, is cursing.

Basically every MMORPG and other game of its class has got some variety of rule that bans cursing in a public forum, which I find absolutely ridiculous.  Partially, this has to do with the fact that cursing is a part of my language; I was brought up talking that way, and for better or worse, swearing works its way into my conversations even when they're polite and at ease.  When I'm ripping into someone, as a rule, I'll do it with no cursing at all, as I feel that adding curse words to an otherwise perfectly legitimate argument (I don't rip into someone without having reason to) lightens the blow; my imagery gets better when I don't curse, although I'm perfectly happy with it if I'm not aggravated.

That said, I also police myself relatively well.  Whereas most people who are poster-children for anti-Internet-swearing will go anywhere from the simple 'fuk u' in General chat to the outright lengthy strings of obscenities and racial or sexual slurs without any particular thread or narrative involved, I have a tendency to be at least remotely friendly when I swear.

My best example for the moment would be on the beta for the new, free DDO.  I said something along the lines of 'You are a fuckin' rockstar, man!' after a friend had pulled me out of a nasty situation, and woke up the next day to find myself banned.

Just a week or so earlier I was on Warhammer Online, and I'd cursed a few times that day, but the real clincher was when the guild leader of one of my server's biggest guilds make a few ridiculously poor, reckless decisions that ended up costing him his entire force; he wiped twice on a force just a little over half his size because he was doing something flagrantly wrong.  I told him so, not gently but without cursing, and suggested a course of action which he could take to improve.  He took that course of action, and reported me for the curses uttered hours earlier, which got me a ban.  It was later confirmed by one of his guildmates that he did it not because I had cursed and he was insulted (and, by the way, the profanity filter in WAR is on by default and you -must- turn it off to hear profanity) but rather because I had made him look like an idiot in front of his guild, and he didn't like it.

That was my first ban, to be followed within two weeks by two -more- bans from two entirely separate games... one of which I was banned for -directly copying and pasting from NPC text-.

I have not changed my speaking habits (indeed, I curse less now than ever) and these are the first three violation bans I have had in literally over a decade of playing online games, from MUDs to UO to Asheron's Call and onwards to the present.

MMORPG.com's got a great profanity rule, I think; the occasional 'bad word' is fine, says the Code of Conduct, but swear-laden threads and profanity-filled rants are not.  That's great.  That's the rule I'd like to happen in -every- game, because it would keep the twelve-year-olds who just learned all their curses in line, and keep folks like me, an older guy with a propensity towards using foul language for emphasis rather than attack, relatively safe.

Sadly, that is not the case.  Zero-tolerance policies being the Thing To Do lately, we're ending up with a 'cleaner' Internet at the expense of guys like me.  I sometimes find solace with the occasional GM that understands the difference between a cursing row and a swear used in normal, calm speech.  For the most part, however, GMs say 'the rules are the rules' and just toss me right off the Internet.

More power to you, I guess, but I find that picking on folks who -use- rather than -abuse- curses simply because we do some of the things the kiddies do... well, a little unfair, I suppose.  Such is the case with any policy that says 'This Thing Is Not Allowed'.

It makes me sad, but people think it's the only way.

That -also- makes me sad.

Excellent post. It's unfortunate people are too ignorant to understand.

Originally posted by Auton

Originally posted by kaydinv

Saying "Nigger" in some situations might be perfectly acceptable and completely offensive in others.

Tell me of one situation in which I, with my pale skin, could say said n-bomb and it would be acceptable. I sure as sin can't think of one. If the situation where it would be acceptable is "the speaker is possessed of a high melanin-count", then there's something very wrong about the whole argument, there.

As well, you undermine your own argument by calling your opponents immature and the like. This does not make it more likely anyone will take you seriously. Insulting people is not a great way to get them to listen.

 

Krin-Rahl: You illustrate some serious issues, there. Zero-tolerance policies tend to cause more problems than they help, and banning someone for praising another player emphatically seems, well, extremely dumb. A more sensible attitude towards the use of language in general might behoove these companies.

Well, at least I didn't call them "SCUM" right?

I have actually heard many caucasian males say "Nigger" to a black friend of theirs in the same way that was described earlier in this thread (I'm too lazy to quote; you can search for yourself). In that situation it can mean "friend," such as "Whasup, Nigga." I live in LA. Not everyone has clenched assholes here.

Now, it might be innappropriate for a different caucasian male to greet a different black male with the same phrase, but that's what I mean by this whole nonesense being situational. Sometimes it's not perceived in a negative way and sometimes it is.

Proclaiming it as a negative word in every situation is ignorant.

People let words have control and meaning as they see fit.

Most people will be offended and up in arms about BS, the rest of us will know, hey, "Stop buggin' out and it won't matter..."

Originally posted by Slampig

People let words have control and meaning as they see fit.

Most people will be offended and up in arms about BS, the rest of us will know, hey, "Stop buggin' out and it won't matter..."

So true, and you can always ask the person politely to refrain from using those words, instead of directly attacking their diction or attempting to get them banned over a silly word. Worst comes to worst in an MMO, you can set them to /ignore.

  Serious issues are the ones I tend to look for. I try to find causes, not symptoms. Folks who figure that having a cleaner Internet is worth going all Demolition Man in terms of swearing or anything else untoward seems a little insane. It surprises me a lot how many folks tell me that I'm uncreative or small-minded because I have a propensity towards using phrases like 'fuckin' unbelievable' to describe things, whether it's half my allied force allowing the other half to be farmed for Renown or an exclamation re:having my ass saved in public. It seems amazing to me how many folks hook up 'this person curses' with 'this person is a bad person' in their minds; I've had a number of discussions to this end with Gamemasters and things, but for the most part, those folks are just following orders.

Again, I think it's a nasty situation that's getting worse. For more than a decade I've been doing what I do, not hurtin' anybody, and now my hopping online involves cycling through my inbox to see who was mortally wounded by my use of the word 'shit' where a child could, somewhere, possibly read.

People are hiding behind rules. That's not what they're for. It's a trend I don't like looking at on any level.  Even if it cleans up the Internet to some degree, regulations like that seem arbitrary and petty, useless in a way only an old Sly Stallone movie could possibly embody.

Originally posted by KirinRahl

  Serious issues are the ones I tend to look for. I try to find causes, not symptoms. Folks who figure that having a cleaner Internet is worth going all Demolition Man in terms of swearing or anything else untoward seems a little insane. It surprises me a lot how many folks tell me that I'm uncreative or small-minded because I have a propensity towards using phrases like 'fuckin' unbelievable' to describe things, whether it's half my allied force allowing the other half to be farmed for Renown or an exclamation re:having my ass saved in public. It seems amazing to me how many folks hook up 'this person curses' with 'this person is a bad person' in their minds; I've had a number of discussions to this end with Gamemasters and things, but for the most part, those folks are just following orders.

Again, I think it's a nasty situation that's getting worse. For more than a decade I've been doing what I do, not hurtin' anybody, and now my hopping online involves cycling through my inbox to see who was mortally wounded by my use of the word 'shit' where a child could, somewhere, possibly read.

People are hiding behind rules. That's not what they're for. It's a trend I don't like looking at on any level.  Even if it cleans up the Internet to some degree, regulations like that seem arbitrary and petty, useless in a way only an old Sly Stallone movie could possibly embody.

Although I've never been banned from an MMO for it, I understand what you mean. I, too, enjoy using "curse" words every now and then for emphasis and it does seem as though a lot of people will immediately label you as "stupid" or "bad" for the use of those words.

It's like someone getting mad on an RP server for not using an Olde English tone when speaking in character.

 I dunno.  Not using Olde Englishe doesn't bear the same onus of Being A Bad Person.  A lot of people literally think less of you after the first swear escapes your lips.  It's a moral thing, for some reason.  Bad for children, etc.

I'd love to know when the last time folks who make these rules were in a middle school.

I thought I cursed a lot until I opened up an Internet cafe and listened to eight and ten year olds yell at each other whilst playing Halo.  It's unbelievable!  And these are the kids we're 'saving' from cursing by beating up on the poor old bastard who used to make the best CDEF pistols on Gorath.

First of all, i belive that all that "poliical correct" thing is nonsence. With that thing someone just trying to enforce his/her point of view on what is offencive and what isn't.

Well, i belive that if every one will start to think would his/her words offence some one or not - world will fall in silence. Just because you can't be absolutly sure, that you'll not offence one (or more) of 6 (or more?) billions people out there? Even ramdomly typed letters have a chance to do so, i belive. Not everyone know all meanings of words and sleng in other countries. There is no such thing like universal culture. What is ok to use in in Russia, can be offencive in USA. For example, in Russia world that mean black guy is "negr". It's very close to oh-so-feared "N" word in USA, so there will be someone for sure who will find it offencive. But Russia never had colony in Africa, never used it's native people as slaves and this word never been offencive in original meaning. Not even words, actions can be explained in different manner. For example good old European (? never been in America, so dunno how it's there) tradition for male to open up door before female and let her in first. I belive some feminist can find it very offencive and give me a long speach about male dominance, but in Russia that is norm of behaviour for polite people and if you don't do so traditionalist will find that offencive and count you as barbarian at least. Speaking about culture. It can differ so much... for example in most of muslim countries male dominance is absolute. If husband don't like what his wife speakiing or doing he can seamply beat her. And that is absolutly normal. And if you will try to interract - he will beat you too, because it's none of your business. Such behaviar is unacceptable for western culture. It's unacceptable for me (living in European part of Russia), but it's ok inCaucasian region. So even in one country what is offencive and what isn't can differ a lot. And now you trying to apply your rules on whole Earth? You making me laugh - people around the world differ too much. And who said that your rules is the right ones?

So i belive that people just inventing problems for themselves. If you want to find something offencive - you will find something for sure even if that someone doing or speaking something that is perfectly ok in his/her country.

And sorry for my English =)
 

Originally posted by Newfr

First of all, i belive that all that "poliical correct" thing is nonsence. With that thing someone just trying to enforce his/her point of view on what is offencive and what isn't.

Well, i belive that if every one will start to think would his/her words offence some one or not - world will fall in silence. Just because you can't be absolutly sure, that you'll not offence one (or more) of 6 (or more?) billions people out there? Even ramdomly typed letters have a chance to do so, i belive. Not everyone know all meanings of words and sleng in other countries. There is no such thing like universal culture. What is ok to use in in Russia, can be offencive in USA. For example, in Russia world that mean black guy is "negr". It's very close to oh-so-feared "N" word in USA, so there will be someone for sure who will find it offencive. But Russia never had colony in Africa, never used it's native people as slaves and this word never been offencive in original meaning. Not even words, actions can be explained in different manner. For example good old European (? never been in America, so dunno how it's there) tradition for male to open up door before female and let her in first. I belive some feminist can find it very offencive and give me a long speach about male dominance, but in Russia that is norm of behaviour for polite people and if you don't do so traditionalist will find that offencive and count you as barbarian at least. Speaking about culture. It can differ so much... for example in most of muslim countries male dominance is absolute. If husband don't like what his wife speakiing or doing he can seamply beat her. And that is absolutly normal. And if you will try to interract - he will beat you too, because it's none of your business. Such behaviar is unacceptable for western culture. It's unacceptable for me (living in European part of Russia), but it's ok inCaucasian region. So even in one country what is offencive and what isn't can differ a lot. And now you trying to apply your rules on whole Earth? You making me laugh - people around the world differ too much. And who said that your rules is the right ones?

So i belive that people just inventing problems for themselves. If you want to find something offencive - you will find something for sure even if that someone doing or speaking something that is perfectly ok in his/her country.

And sorry for my English =)
 

I understand what you're trying to say here, but in this particular case I don't think it applies. The author was relating a story from a game being played on an American server. In that case, geographical tolerances and/or bigotry are less of a factor, in my opinion.

I've traveled all over the USA for work and pleasure, and I can't think of a place I've visited where no blacks would be offended by the casual use of the n-word toward complete strangers, nor can I think of a place where no gays would be offended by casual use of the word "gay" as a derogatory slur.

Mind you, I'm not saying I advocate policing the internet. I'm just pointing out why I disagree with your statement. Hell... if they started policing due to swearing, I'd be tossed out of every game eventually. I use "colorful" language as a part of my daily speech. :P

Sanya I am with you on this.  Great article by the way.   I have seen things like you describe in games like Planetside, Age of Conan and EvE.    The good thing about those games are we the players can choose to just put the offender on ignore/block and we don't have to read their garbage any more.    I have learned that in most games though that a large portion of community will police itself and if that is not enough then you can bet many people will report the individual and in moments they will be gone.

Being PC is one thing, but letting a player spam a chat with words that everyone knows what they mean and find offensive is not a good thing at all. 

The words are irrelavent, it's the meaning they convey. For intinstance calling something 'gay' or 'ghey' is offensive simply because its a word that describes a group of people due to their sexual preference. To then use it in a refernce to 'lame or stupid' is derogatory to those people, obviously. When its used in the 'dudue that's gay' it isn't in the happy sense is it.

The word 'niger' is offence for the same reason, it's to do with the conotation of the word. While it is true that words and language evolve and their original meanings change it is also true that while a majority of people still see the word as offensive it reamins so.

I think that the whole 'gay' problem may just solve itself. Eventually the new definition (lame/boring) will be mainstream enough that people will forget it ever meant homosexual. Some may find this a perversion of the word rather than an evolution of it, but  they'll get over it.

Originally posted by kaydinv

It's always fun seeing self-proclaimed "mature adults" reveal their binary view to the world. Life isn't rendered in black and whit. Other shades lay inbetween....sing with me!

First of all, I take the terms "maturity" and "immaturity" as neither insults nor compliments.  Assuming that everyone must adhere to some subjective test of wisdom is, ironically, a binary viewpoint itself.

And while life in general isn't rendered in black and white, MMO playerbases do not represent a truly random cross-section of such.  For reasons that are probably fathomable, MMO playerbases are fractured (with perhaps slightly blurred lines of distinction) into those who are there to play and cooperate, and those who are there to dominate and compete.

It imposes an environment that surpasses even the hostility encountered in the real world.

Originally posted by Antarious

Originally posted by Auton

I have a question for all those of you who defend the use of the word 'gay' as a pejorative (that means 'bad word'). Have you ever had a political movement, or several, focused on removing rights from you because of something you have no power to change, nor would want to change because it is a bedrock of your personality and identity? I'm guessing no. Black people have had this (c.f. slavery, Jim Crow laws, Ku Klux Clan). LGBT people still do (c.f. Proposition 8 in California, Fred Phelps and associates, etc.).

 

Proposition 8?  are you high?

 

This is one of those things that people toss out there so they can focus on some narrow thing.  As opposed to the entire thing...

 

The US is supposed to be based on a Democratic Republic.  The concept of "majority rule" and gay marriage whether you support it or not.. Was put to a vote and failed.  The courts of california over-ruled the voters (goes directly against the system) and Proposition 8 was the voters saying "oh no you don't".

 

This is about system... If you want to pass gay marriage then like anything else you go out and convince people to vote for it.  You don't sideline the system or do an end run to get around how things work.

 

In effect  it would have been the same thing as filing a lawsuit because Obama was elected president.  Then having the court toss out his election... Proposition 8 only existed because the system had been VIOLATED.

 

I don't care what someone does... what they believe etc

 

What I do care about is "system" and the moment you do an end run around it....  You have opened the door so that the next time the end run might not be in your favor.

 

I'm from VT... guess what?  It was the first stae in the US to pass "gay marriage" by the system instead of by the court.  Even tho it was through a veto over-ride it was still done within the system.

 

The solution to much of anything is to get people to identify and relate to your point of view and gain support for your cause.

 

Oh and yes I'm a "white male" in a mixed race family but they don't hold it against me... imagine that.

Ever heard of a phrase " The Tyranny of the Majority"? It's why so many laws passed by voters wind up in the Supreme Court. Because the majority can be mighty bigoted. And the majority has no problem denying others their constitutional rights. If the majority ruled, African-Americans would still be sitting at the back of the bus.