Originally posted by Scottc

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by Scottc

But the money is in the majority who are at level 80 or whatever the cap happens to be, and they want to keep those guys playing the game.

 

Ah, but more mid-level content would provide incentive for that majority to roll up a new character and level through the new content. I've got a capped toon, and I would jump at the chance to be able to play a new character in order to experience new content. I don't raid or anything like that. I'm pretty much like the person above who said he retires his characters at level max. My style is to try to play each of the available races and classes until I get to max level, and then start over. After about the fourth or fifth time through the same content in WoW, the experience became less of an adventure and more of a chore.

Ah but most people who play WoW style games are attached to their character and they want to push it on rather than go through the low level grind, because they think the "end game" is where the only content worth doing is at.

Because of the way newer games are made. So its a full circle problem......

when it comes to leveling and endgame a grind is a grind.

whether it takes me 10 months to level 1-75 or it takes me 3 months to level to 80 and then 7 months to get the best gear.

I guess what we are arguing about is just the style that we want to see our acheivments "do I want to grind and see levels and new abilitys" or "do I want to grind and see new armor and my stats go up" really its the same thing.

I personaly prefere the level style of acheivment, for alot of resons but the main would be recognition. I remember in FFXI in some of the ealier days if you saw a 75 it was like "whoa....thats awsome" but in wow every one and there mom has 3 alts at 80 now, and so the only way of saying "hey i've put the time in, i'm cool....in a nerdy sense" is if you actually look up the gear and find out what it all means.

So using levels is just more of a universal way of showing your acomplishments.....

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I think one thing we can all agree on is that we want more variety.  I think there are ways that can happen with the current model.

Many of these ideas come from Ryzom, but I think they can be implemented better than they currently are:

1. Seasons: changes the types of mobs in the zone, changes the look of the zone, etc.

2. Mobs aren't always in _exactly_ the same place.  They should be in a general area so they're still easy to find, but not always sitting around the same campfire for 5 years

3. Make the game itself change, make the world advance through time, move from medieval times to later times, etc.  Make it a dynamic, living world, that changes and evolves.  Zones change, the type of classes change, etc.  You could have great faction wars to determine the makeup of the world and then have an actual CHANGE in the cities and such. However, this also needs to be balanced somehow so that players on the losing side are either accepted into the new cities or find their own new territory to colonize.  Think about it, a huge climatic battle at the capital of the losing city with 1000s of players duking it out.  This game also would really have no limits, it could constantly change and the developer could just update the graphics and rebuild the game as things change and evolve.  A bit like EVE Online right now, but also very different.  When I talk of players attacking cities, I mean NPC cities, not player ones.  Players could make cities/outposts, and those would be the "front lines" at first, being placed along the border between the factions.  Then, the developer would declare war at some point with a live event with a story behind it and war would break out.  Players would fight at the outposts at first, then break through to the NPC cities until they reach the capital city and take it. 

Now, the first two options could be implemented fairly easily, but the last one would probably take way too many resources to be profitable, especially when they can just make tons of money off of the current model. 

Maybe we will see a game like this once technology gets better/cheaper (it is possible to make something like this today, but it's not efficient, it could be in the future). 

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Now, the first two options could be implemented fairly easily, but the last one would probably take way too many resources to be profitable, especially when they can just make tons of money off of the current model. 

Maybe we will see a game like this once technology gets better/cheaper (it is possible to make something like this today, but it's not efficient, it could be in the future). 

The problem with that is the last one would also fundamentally change the game from one thing to another. Rather than have the world evolve from one era to the next, it'd be nice if it could evolve in real time. Using the tired but ubiquitous example of WoW, let's say that 5 years have passed in the game world with ecological changes to reflect that. Sure, the passage of time is mentioned in the game manuals in the expansions, but the world is still static, as I mentioned before. If you start a new character today, you're still playing through content that's up to 5 years old.

Anybody who thinks a dev could possibly come up with enough content to not make a mmo a grindfest is smoking crack.  MMOs are about long-term perpetual worlds.  You will ALWAYS have repeatable content that is necessary to prolong the game's lifespan.  There is no way any dev could economically develop enough content to keep up with the pace that players chew it up.  This is a fact, and there's no way around it.

Originally posted by fansede

Originally posted by bleyzwun

It's a simple solution that most of these devs probably can't do.  Create an MMO without levels, without gear for stats, then concentrate on making the game ALL ABOUT FUN.  The reason why all MMOs have a grind is because every dev decides to put levels in, gear upgrades, stupid mobs that only get stronger through stats, rep/fame, etc.  How can a game not be a grind when 90% of the content is to kill a million animals that are almost identical, asside from appearance? 

I wouldn't mind if there were levels and all the other crap that adds to the grind if the whole game was fun.  Right now, most of the fun is at end game, so everyone rushes (including me) to max level.  IMO there is no fun to be had while leveling (aside from the first or 2nd time).  If you've done it in one MMO, it's not much different in the next. 

 

Why is only the end game fun? What is fun for you?

Endgame is fun because I have all my spells, and that's where most of the PvP is.  I enjoyed leveling in FFXI, but it was my first MMO, and I never got to end game there.  I also enjoyed leveling my first character in WoW.  After that, it was all the same to me.  I tried a bunch of games, while and after playing WoW, and leveling was the same thing in every game.  Either grind mobs, or do quests, maybe a dungeon here and there. 

I have seen no difference in how you level in MMOs.  If I actually felt like I was having an adventure, things would be much different.  I have not felt that since FFXI, and that was most likely because I was a total noob to the genre, and was amazed that I was playing with people from around the world.  Face it, killing a boar, or a bear for the millionth time is boring.  Killing the same mob, in a different skin, in a different game is even worse.  I know I wouldn't feel this way about PvE if devs focused on making the game fun. Instead they spread the same mobs with different stats and skins around the map. 

At end game you get to see all the differences (however minor they are)  between the new game and the last as a whole.  Also, players are a lot more daring at max level.  Most players are scared of confrontation while leveling up.  There have been plenty of times when people I am grouped with will try to avoid any enemy players. 

It may sound like I just don't like MMOs in many of my posts.  It's true, I'm pretty fed up with everything that's been coming out.  I love the concept behind MMOs, and I love many aspects of different titles, but the genre has not grown much at all.  I would like to see some sort of real advancement.  Minor new and improved features are cool, and they give titles a little bit of flavor, but it's just not enough. 

The reason "grindfest " exists is because players do NOT want fun like so many claim they do,they want to SPEED through the games for bragging rights or whatever.

So this leaves developers with their hands tied,they can make content,but many will choose to ignore it and finish the core of the leveling within a month.So then those speed freaks want more levels or in many cases they ant end game raiding,but in reality,they want a means to gain the "BEST" gear in the game for again bragging rights.

so it is the players that have forced this type of gameplay and it may never change for years to come.This leaves the developer only one choice ,make the leveling [not the content] last as long as they can to keep the subs going.I have seen it first hand over ALL games,players tend to ignore the actuyal FUN or content,they want raids and gear and levels and nothing more,players are for the most part ,VERY simplistic in their mindset for game play.

This reminds me of the "That's the way it's always been done" joke.

Scientists put 5 monkeys in a cage. In the center of the cage they

suspended bananas out of reach of the monkeys. They also put a stool

in the cage. One of the monkeys figured out that if he moved the stool

to under the bananas and climbed up on it he'd be able to reach them.

However, once he moved the stool and climbed on top of it the scientists

hosed down all the monkeys until he got off the stool. Periodically

another monkey would try to climb up and the scientists would hose them

down. Finally all the monkeys quit trying.

The scientists then removed one of the monkeys and replaced him with a

new one. The new one headed for the stool on realizing the bananas

were there. The 4 original monkeys intercepted him and beat the crap

out of him because they didn't want to get hosed down.

The scientists repeated this process over time replacing each monkey

until finally none of the original monkeys were left that had been hosed

down. They then brought in yet another monkey and the 5 replacement

monkeys also beat the crap out of him when he tried to reach the bananas

even though none of them had ever been hosed down. Why did they do

this? BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN AROUND HERE PAL!

Originally posted by RSjunky

This reminds me of the "That's the way it's always been done" joke.

Scientists put 5 monkeys in a cage. In the center of the cage they

suspended bananas out of reach of the monkeys. They also put a stool

in the cage. One of the monkeys figured out that if he moved the stool

to under the bananas and climbed up on it he'd be able to reach them.

However, once he moved the stool and climbed on top of it the scientists

hosed down all the monkeys until he got off the stool. Periodically

another monkey would try to climb up and the scientists would hose them

down. Finally all the monkeys quit trying.

The scientists then removed one of the monkeys and replaced him with a

new one. The new one headed for the stool on realizing the bananas

were there. The 4 original monkeys intercepted him and beat the crap

out of him because they didn't want to get hosed down.

The scientists repeated this process over time replacing each monkey

until finally none of the original monkeys were left that had been hosed

down. They then brought in yet another monkey and the 5 replacement

monkeys also beat the crap out of him when he tried to reach the bananas

even though none of them had ever been hosed down. Why did they do

this? BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN AROUND HERE PAL!

Stupid comparison because no one has mentioned a feasible way to create unlimited content.  Show how it can be done and there won't be any more grinding since if its always new, its not really a grind.  Basically anyone asking for unlmited content thats never repeatable hasn't a clue how game design works.  Its like asking for a never ending movie or never ending book.  THAT's a good comparison.  Show me millions of people complaining that movies and books suck because they have endings.  Thats what some dorks here are asking for.  A movie that just keeps going on forever.  Kind of unreasonable, correct?

Originally posted by CactusmanX

Originally posted by Vrazule

You do it by making the game extremely replayable, rather than about the long assed journey to max level.  They make leveling slow in order to keep people subscribing longer than they normally would.  It's also easier to create grind content than it is to come up with fun, replayable content.  In other words, developers and their financiers are too lazy to do it the right way in order to maximize profits that they don't deserve.  As uaual, capitalism always degenerates into greed when consumers can't be bothered to push for fairness.

 

That is just silly

You can blame it on lazy evil greedy capitalist pig developers, but comrade you as a consumer are to blame, you buy them after all.  And apprently there are plently of people that like the way games are enough to buy them too.

I also like how you are making it an issue about fairness and not just entertainment.  I guess you are one of those cool kids that likes to fight for the rights of the people, to have games like the good old days back before they became souless and corporate.

First of all, I'm not your comrade.  Secondly, we consumers do speak.  I don't play any of these MMOs after I find out that they are just like the other forced grouping, raid or die grind fests that infect the market.  Thirdly, have you noticed how the games that become more casual and solo friendly end up having far more subscribers than games that are hardcore?  Minus the Asian market of course although they certainly have embraced WoW, one of if not the most casual game out there right now.  Games like Free Realms and Wizard 101 are surpassing everything but WoW, with millions of subscribers and they are even more casual and solo friendly than even WoW.  The consumer is speaking clearly, the problem is you hardcore old schoolers are burying your heads in the sand and trying to ignore the change in direction the MMO genre is and will be heading.

Originally posted by SaintViktor

How are developers ever going to collect their monthly fee without it being a grindfest ?

If they do it right, Bioware with their Star Wars The Old Republic MMO may very well have an answer for that.  All it requires is a bit of thought and consideration and a desire to create a product based on entertainment value rather than a business model.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by ummaxx

that would mean having everything the minute you log in otherwise there is an endgame (where you want to call it one or not its there) every mmorpg has one even the so called "sandboxes" they all have one.    Everything has a purpose if there is not one built in place then people make a purpose and work towards it.    You can't stop endgame its a product of simply playing.   Even if there is not a linear quest line you get to the end of what exists in the game have done and seen it all and then your at the wall.   There is still grind there though no matter what system in place there is always a grind no matter how hard people try to disguise it its there just like "endgame" its there to great you :)

No, it just means that the whole point of playing can't be progression and that's really all MMOs are these days.  If there are no levels, or if the levels aren't just a gauge of how much stuff you've got, then there is no endgame because anyone *CAN* achieve things without having to follow the progression grind.  That means that crafters can get very good at their crafting without ever having to heft a sword and kill boars.  However, all games are very combat-centric, to the point where if you don't engage in endless combat, often for very ill-defined reasons, you don't get anywhere.

Even sandbox games tend to fall into this trap where the only way to get anywhere, especially if you want to get anywhere fast, is to go out and kill something.

even if there is no levels you have to have a way to get "better" at things.  If they place danger in the world you need to be able to overcome it .  If you want to make items you have to have a way to find resources even if you are "born" with all the skills.    EvE claims to have no grind, but time is their grind you pay money to level basically, but in the end you still have to "grind ore" to make ships or "grind cash" to buy the ore or "grind cash" to buy a ship from another guy that "grinds ore" to make ships.

So levels are irrelevant they are just an easily understandable way for people to see they have made some sort of progress however that progress wether obvious or not still has to be made in some way anyhow.   The only way to avoid it is to literally have everyone be able to do everything from the get go.   

If you want to "Live" there is always going to be grinding otherwise life even a virtual one has no purpose to it.   Most people enter games wanting to "be something" they have a story and idea in their head and see a game and usually want to play it out.   There is grind to anyone who wants to put any sense of direction into a game and if its not built in they will add it.   Unfortunately real life is mirrored in mmorpg's that way and you can't escape it.   Everyone needs a purpose weather the game creates one or they create their own purpose in a sandbox they will still need to do things in order to get to their own personal goal.     Otherwise it becomes a chat room only and how many people are going to pay to sit in a chat room ? not many .

Do you actually in any game you play wander around aimlessly and do nothing? If so your one of a very few who finds it fun to stand motionless in a corner and the same corner each day doing nothing .

So yeah unfortunately merely existing results in a grind of some sort even if its hidden and there are no levels its still there to greet you just like end game which is usually the wall people hit when they feel they have done everything there is for them to do that is pretty much what end game is to many and that is what it is to me.    End game is the end of the game .   The fact you are even speaking of endgame means that you consider that games have a beginning , middle and an end and with that comes a "grind" to get there even if you find it insanely fun its still a grind in the end just one that you enjoy :)

what the purpose of the job/goal or proffession is you make yourself into is irrelevant.    You seem to be the one that equates grind with combat.   This is applied across the board to crafting and even exploring.    IN both cases if you want to explore you need to live through the experience.   Crafting you can probably manage to avoid going out inti the great outdoors , but your still going to have to make money to pay the bills and there is that good old grind again staring you in the face :)

you want a Grind fest go play everquest or DAoC or Ffleven.

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

So i've been reading the forums as of late, and i've noticed quite a few people say things like "Korean grindfest" or its just a "grindfest"

And in one case someone said that MMOs being a grindfest "That's just a norm created by first mmorpgs, you don't have to include that into mmorpgs"

 

So I guess my question for those of you who think that MMO's can be anything but a grindfest, I want to know. HOW....i've asked in a million times. How do you keep MMORPG's from being a grindfest, i'd like some examples.

I dunno its kinda like the whole "WoW clone" thing...its starting to get on my nerves. I've play'd MMO's for a long time, and they are supposed to be "grindfest" they are supposed to be a time sink. you are supposed to spend a long time playing it!!!

These people that get on and are like "I can only play for a hour a day, and I wanna level as fast as someone who play's 14 hours a day. and i'm tired of these grindfest. cry cry cry, startin to drive me nuts.

It'd be like if I started playing Halo alot and then complained because I had to use guns, or whatever...

meh. go ahead flame me, but you all know its true.

Grinding is what we do in mmorpgs is my take on it.   That includes all things that people don't think are grinding. 

From the PC side of grinding, it's a PC statement declaring what a player doesn't want in his game.

Originally posted by ummax

even if there is no levels you have to have a way to get "better" at things.  If they place danger in the world you need to be able to overcome it .  If you want to make items you have to have a way to find resources even if you are "born" with all the skills.    EvE claims to have no grind, but time is their grind you pay money to level basically, but in the end you still have to "grind ore" to make ships or "grind cash" to buy the ore or "grind cash" to buy a ship from another guy that "grinds ore" to make ships.

The problem is, in most games, if you set up a shop in a town and do tradeskilling, if your customers bring in all of your resources with them, you still don't improve in tradeskilling unless you go out and kill boars.  EvE is just as grindy as every other game and their training system is utterly ludicrous.  You pick a skill to train and you don't even have to be online to get better in it, you never have to do anything even remotely close to the skill, you can be an expert miner and never have mined a single bit of ore in your life.

So levels are irrelevant they are just an easily understandable way for people to see they have made some sort of progress however that progress wether obvious or not still has to be made in some way anyhow.   The only way to avoid it is to literally have everyone be able to do everything from the get go.   

It depends on how you define "progress".  You ought to be able to get better at skills you use, based on how often you use them.  Fighters get better at fighting by fighting.  Crafters get better at crafting by crafting.  Spellcasters get better at casting spells by actually casting them.  It's a damn sight better than "ooh, I got better at things because I was out killing boars!"

Do you actually in any game you play wander around aimlessly and do nothing? If so your one of a very few who finds it fun to stand motionless in a corner and the same corner each day doing nothing .

Actually, I spent all day yesterday just sitting around in Anarchy Online helping people, I didn't play the game at all, made functionally zero XP, no loot, no nothing.  And it was some of the most fun I've had in a long time.