I agree that it has been a bit of an odd month as far as smacktalk goes.  I play EVE Online, where smacktalk is king, and I don't think I've had anyone smack in local all month.  After combat it's been "good fight" instead of "your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries".  Hell, even the hulk we caught mining in a belt in lowsec and tried to ransom didn't smack, and that was highly unusual.  (We ended up blowing him up because he wouldn't pay. :(  )

Originally posted by Auton

Originally posted by Zorvan

And people who overgeneralize an entire ethnic group aren't "racist"? Because that's what you just did. Maybe I should be offended. Unfortunately, I'm laughing too much at your ignorance to be offended.

Let me explain something to you as a "straight white male". First off, there is no "white" male anymore. I'm willing to bet the "black", "brown", "yellow", and "red" male don't really exist as a "race" anymore either. You go through anyone's family tree in the 21st century and you will find the intermixing of different racial  bloodlines. The only "race" that means, or should mean, anything anymore is the "human race".

So don't try to perpetrate how "the straight white male" is somehow automatically "insensitive" because we haven't been "disenfranchised". If you really want to go there, perhaps I was "disenfranchised" when I had to pay my own way through college while other "races" were given scholoarships BECAUSE of their race ( United Negro College Fund, NAACP, etc. ).

Yet I don't blame someone of that particular racial background for using those scholarships, anymore than I blame someone being given a job because of their racial background through "affirmative action". I blame the government, and people like yourself, who continue to divide the races while proclaiming the opposite. If idiots would stop looking for "racial" bullshit in every sentence and every eye movement and every hairstyle, stop using race as a "handicap" and an excuse for why they don't have what the other guy has, maybe we COULD all just get along. 

 

I refer you to my question above. You're one of the people I'd like to see answer that.

About race: It was a ficticious concept to begin with, even when it was invented in the 16th century to justify genocide and slavery. The concept today exists as a cultural label attached to certian genetic phenotypes within the human species - and in the minds of bigots who still use it to justify the unjustifiable.

When you can be certain that no person is ever discriminated against due to skin color, sexual orientation, gender (or even being transgendered), then you can call the various affirmative action systems unfair. Until then, you as a white, straight male, are sitting on a huge pile of privilege that makes a dragon's hoard look like pocket change. And yes, if you don't realize that you are sitting on that pile of privilege and looking down at everyone who does not, then you are insensitive. It has bupkis to do with being white, or straight, or male. It has everything to do with the side effects of having those traits, namely that you will never find yourself being inescapably persecuted or discriminated against - and Englishman can leave Wales. A white man can leave a black neighborhood. A black man cannot stop being black. A gay man cannot stop being gay. So stop acting like they can.

Sorry, but your the one who needs to take a step back.

So everything is so "unfair" to others that aren't white?

I think Obama pretty much blew your argument out of the water. Everytime you or somebody else wants to pull the "I'm being held back because of my race" card, I'm going to refer you to Obama. Or maybe Colin Powell. Or Clarence Thomas. Or any of the others who somehow managed to do what you apparently think can't be done.

And affirmative action does not make things equal. It in fact widens the divide and causes more resentment.

And if I'm so privileged, why aren't I making 100k-200k-1 million dollars a year unlike many people of other racial backgrounds? It couldn't possibly be because those people put in the time and effort to get where they are instead of listening to how "held down" they were, could it?  I mean, everything is handed to us "white folk", ain't it?

You make me laugh and cry at the same time, dude. Wake up and join the future.

Originally posted by Senadina

Great article Sanya. But you  really should have expected this sort of response from what I assume are predominately straight, white, males. Having never been disenfranchised, they have no understanding of how derogatory words belittle and disempower others. It is a way to keep the minorities " in their place". But they will never see it this way. They will claim freedom of speech, not seeing that just because you CAN say something,  doesn't mean you SHOULD say it. Words are communication, especially in the absence of visual cues.  A little sensitivty to others'  feelings won't hurt you.

I have to say, you have all proven Sanya's conclusiont that her recent experience was the exception, not the rule.

 Really had to put some stress on the brain cells to figure out these comments come from straight white males? I mean really ... black ... gay ... women ... other minorities, are more than likely ruled out right? How about you add ignorant to it next time so you don't lump some of the decent white straight males in with the trash you want to make us all out to be .... thanks.

Originally posted by Zorvan

Sorry, but your the one who needs to take a step back.

So everything is so "unfair" to others that aren't white?

I think Obama pretty much blew your argument out of the water. Everytime you or somebody else wants to pull the "I'm being held back because of my race" card, I'm going to refer you to Obama. Or maybe Colin Powell. Or Clarence Thomas. Or any of the others who somehow managed to do what you apparently think can't be done.

And affirmative action does not make things equal. It in fact widens the divide and causes more resentment.

And if I'm so privileged, why aren't I making 100k-200k-1 million dollars a year unlike many people of other racial backgrounds? It couldn't possibly be because those people put in the time and effort to get where they are instead of listening to how "held down" they were, could it?  I mean, everything is handed to us "white folk", ain't it?

You make me laugh and cry at the same time, dude. Wake up and join the future.

With one hand you hold up Obama and Powell and the rest, who have accomplished what they have not because of, but in spite of the system they faced. Their achievements are something to be proud of, not something to take away from, but you do, when you talk about affirmative action.

I don't know how much you make a year. Probably less than some people with darker skin than yours. But you probably also make more than a lot of other people with a different teint, as well. The privilege you have is not a monetary one, it is cultural. It's the simple fact of being a member of the majority culture of the nation you live in. Now I know there's examples of affirmative action meaning that people who are not minority-members get screwed - scholarships being all but impossible to get, schools being practically closed to non-minority people, etc. But those are symptoms of broader problems within the US society, as I see it. They're a problem because while advocating for black rights, asian rights, gay rights, etc. etc. is all good and well, people are failing to take into consideration human rights.

The American society is geared towards keeping the poor poor, and the rich rich. This benefits the rich a lot, and since they can then keep the poor entertained and distracted from real problems, noone else cares. As well, a lot of anger that should rightfully be directed against economic oppression is instead pointed at, say, the black guy who got a scholarship, or the asian chick who managed to get into some school, or something. Instead of agitating for a system that ensures a high level of education for everyone (like, say, Sweden's) all the people whom it would benefit best spend their time at each others' throats over tiny, relatively inconsequential matters.

The worker's movement in the US was basically defeated by racism. White workers went on strike, were replaced by black workers, causing a schism in the unions, making it about white against black, rather than worker against capital. That did not happen over here (Sweden). As a result, we have five weeks vacation, months of paid sick days, and a year's paid paternal leave, while you have two weeks vacation if you're lucky, no paid sick days, and any paternal leave is unpaid as well. Basically, the poor people got screwed by being turned against each other. The end result is that noone noticed who was really getting their jollies at the cost of the working class.

Do I sound like a socialist? Sure. I am one. Socialism, you see, means more people with higher educations, better health, and higher salaries, meaning more taxes get paid and more money gets pumped back into the economy. It's simply good business sense on a societal scale.

Originally posted by Auton

Originally posted by Zorvan

Sorry, but your the one who needs to take a step back.

So everything is so "unfair" to others that aren't white?

I think Obama pretty much blew your argument out of the water. Everytime you or somebody else wants to pull the "I'm being held back because of my race" card, I'm going to refer you to Obama. Or maybe Colin Powell. Or Clarence Thomas. Or any of the others who somehow managed to do what you apparently think can't be done.

And affirmative action does not make things equal. It in fact widens the divide and causes more resentment.

And if I'm so privileged, why aren't I making 100k-200k-1 million dollars a year unlike many people of other racial backgrounds? It couldn't possibly be because those people put in the time and effort to get where they are instead of listening to how "held down" they were, could it?  I mean, everything is handed to us "white folk", ain't it?

You make me laugh and cry at the same time, dude. Wake up and join the future.

With one hand you hold up Obama and Powell and the rest, who have accomplished what they have not because of, but in spite of the system they faced. Their achievements are something to be proud of, not something to take away from, but you do, when you talk about affirmative action.

 

You know what, Mr. Sweden? Why are you discussing racism in the U.S. when you don't even live here? Did you read about us in a book or seen us on the news and now are the authority on how things work over here?

My views of affrimative action do not take away from those individuals I mentioned or anyone else. Affirmative action in this country basically says "if you don't have X numbver of non-caucasian employees, you will be penalized". So you know what happens? People are hired not because of their qualifications, but because of their skin color. Is that not racist to you? Sure seems so to me. And what you get from this system is workers ( both caucasian and minority workers ) who may have been more qualified, but weren't the "needed" "minority" , losing out on that job because of affirmative action, and therefore feeling resentment.Resentment breeds hate, pal. And that is what affirmative action really ends up doing, dividing even further rather than uniting or making equal.

The idea behind affirmative action, and what affirmative action really is, is two different things entirely.

For example, the idea behind communism isn't bad. Yet what have we seen from every country/nation that chose the communist way? Exactly the opposite of the stated intentions. Affirmative action is the same way, a good idea with lousy implementation that achieves exactly the opposite of its intended effect.

It would seem that the columnist has hypocritically discredited herself by offending the “straight white males” who chose to take offense. Add to that she uses name calling to try and add weight to her argument by using the label “scum”....what's next??
And some others are trying to make this a complex multi-rooted emotional shock and in doing so miss the simple realities.

EXP A: Words like “All should be treated equally and fairly” Have merit and are reality because we all come into this world the same way..We all should have the same right to live and grow. These are words worth something and based in reality and words worth fighting for.

EXP B: “You are nothing but a worthless N.....” Is not based in reality or truth, it's ridiculous for anyone to come along and suddenly give the words power (just as ridiculous as once thinking the world was flat in truth) . If it offends someone then it is that someone who gives it power, otherwise it's simple mindless and meaningless rabble.

If someone tries to unjustly take my shelter away or sustenance then they better prepare themselves for a fight because I will fight and kill if need be.

If someone comes along and calls me a (insert w/e) I have a choice to determine my own feelings for they(that someone) have no power in this arena. The difference resides in what I decide to feel and not in what they said.
This is key to a healthy mental state.

Originally posted by Auton

The worker's movement in the US was basically defeated by racism. White workers went on strike, were replaced by black workers, causing a schism in the unions, making it about white against black, rather than worker against capital.

Thanks for the info. I never knew that! :)

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Auton

The worker's movement in the US was basically defeated by racism. White workers went on strike, were replaced by black workers, causing a schism in the unions, making it about white against black, rather than worker against capital.

 

Thanks for the info. I never knew that! :)

Me neither. I'm sure he's willing to provide us with his source of information for our enlightnement though.

I also find it entertaining that, had this thread been started by a normal member in the forums, it would have already been locked and/or deleted for being troll and flame bait, yet because it's an "article", it's excused. Sanya  knew what this thread would devolve into. If she didn't, then I seriously question her abilities as a journalist, writer or whatever she considers herself.

It's a matter of historic record, and most certainly didn't help improve race relations, although with the prior behavior of whites enslaving blacks, I'm sure most white people didn't need much help thinking less of black people.

Originally posted by Zorvan

You know what, Mr. Sweden? Why are you discussing racism in the U.S. when you don't even live here? Did you read about us in a book or seen us on the news and now are the authority on how things work over here?

I'm marrying an American woman next Saturday. She's actually faced the problems of AA herself - it meant she could not get into the school mshe wanted to, basically. I also know a whole bunch of Americans of all stripes, types and colours, beside her.

We're fundamentally in agreement about AA's problems. We have a similar system to it over here, and it actually works, because the greater inequalities have largely been evened out. In this case, it ascertains that minorities can get educations and jobs at the same level as the majorities. An example is the system ensuring that women have access to science Ph.D scholarships, which is necessary because the tenured professors making the call on who gets these slots is pretty much exclusively male, and this prevents any bias from causing problems. It also, at worst, means that a male student who wants a Ph.D. very badly will need to wait a year more for it, but can then rack up some real-world work experience all the while, improving his chances the next year. This only works, in the first place, though, because of the system of free education and so on and so forth we have here.

I really wish you'd take a less confrontational tone, Zorvan. We're really not disagreeing a lot here, and you do have some good points. We should be able to discuss these things amicably, I think.

Originally posted by Auton

I have a question for all those of you who defend the use of the word 'gay' as a pejorative (that means 'bad word'). Have you ever had a political movement, or several, focused on removing rights from you because of something you have no power to change, nor would want to change because it is a bedrock of your personality and identity? I'm guessing no. Black people have had this (c.f. slavery, Jim Crow laws, Ku Klux Clan). LGBT people still do (c.f. Proposition 8 in California, Fred Phelps and associates, etc.).

Proposition 8?  are you high?

This is one of those things that people toss out there so they can focus on some narrow thing.  As opposed to the entire thing...

The US is supposed to be based on a Democratic Republic.  The concept of "majority rule" and gay marriage whether you support it or not.. Was put to a vote and failed.  The courts of california over-ruled the voters (goes directly against the system) and Proposition 8 was the voters saying "oh no you don't".

This is about system... If you want to pass gay marriage then like anything else you go out and convince people to vote for it.  You don't sideline the system or do an end run to get around how things work.

In effect  it would have been the same thing as filing a lawsuit because Obama was elected president.  Then having the court toss out his election... Proposition 8 only existed because the system had been VIOLATED.

I don't care what someone does... what they believe etc

What I do care about is "system" and the moment you do an end run around it....  You have opened the door so that the next time the end run might not be in your favor.

I'm from VT... guess what?  It was the first stae in the US to pass "gay marriage" by the system instead of by the court.  Even tho it was through a veto over-ride it was still done within the system.

The solution to much of anything is to get people to identify and relate to your point of view and gain support for your cause.

Oh and yes I'm a "white male" in a mixed race family but they don't hold it against me... imagine that.

---

Originally posted by Auton
I really wish you'd take a less confrontational tone, Zorvan. We're really not disagreeing a lot here, and you do have some good points. We should be able to discuss these things amicably, I think.

---

That's why so many discussions that turn into debates end up just being poorly constructed arguments that serve only to wrap a personal insult. It's not so much that we don't have good points (as both you and Zorvan certainly do), but that we consider our opinions to be extensions of ourselves. An attack on our position is an attack on us (and often times when someone disputes our position, there's some sort of attack on our character thrown in as well to get our easily-bruised egos into the mix). Look, for instance, at how far from discriminatory comments we have come. Affirmative action? Okay... interesting subject, but not, I think, as interesting as something simple (word choice) affecting how we view the world and each other (through the use of discriminatory words that originate from thoughtless, uneducated, or truly prejudiced mindsets). We naturally are going into the history of our lives to try to draw forth the reasoning behind our attitudes which shape the way we speak to one another, but more often than not it's just a defense mechanism rather than true introspection that calls those attitudes into question.

I'm not sure of the intent of either one of you at this point, but it is definitely starting to look more like a battle of wills than a broadening of awareness.

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

Not even touching the ignorance in thinking using terms like "gay" in a derogatory sense is demeaning and insulting. I will however merely state that talk like that in an OOC channel, while disgusting, is optional and you don't have to listen to it. Unfortunately thats where freedom of speech comes in and allows any dumbass to say any dumbass thing they want.

Now, if the same thing was said in an RP channel, or in game on an RP server, then its perfectly OK for that person to be tarred, feathered, and banned. In game isn't about "my generation," you're playing a character and that character wouldn't say things that wouldn't be appropriate for the time. And I'm not talking about everyone has to say "Thou" and "Art" in every sentence. You can speak properly without sounding like you're in Hamlet.  But it's an RP server. Act like it. I'm looking at you, WoW.

And just like people who say "Don't like it, don't listen to OOC chat" would comment, if you don't like it, don't play on an RP server. There are plenty of PVP/PvE/Pissing Contest servers for you to muck around in.

God forbid they actually ever enforced the rules on servers with an RP ruleset. The population would probably drop faster than Sarah Palin's chances of a presidential bid.

Originally posted by TuxedoSLY

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

 

Not even touching the ignorance in thinking using terms like "gay" in a derogatory sense is demeaning and insulting. I will however merely state that talk like that in an OOC channel, while disgusting, is optional and you don't have to listen to it. Unfortunately thats where freedom of speech comes in and allows any dumbass to say any dumbass thing they want.

 

Now, if the same thing was said in an RP channel, or in game on an RP server, then its perfectly OK for that person to be tarred, feathered, and banned. In game isn't about "my generation," you're playing a character and that character wouldn't say things that wouldn't be appropriate for the time. And I'm not talking about everyone has to say "Thou" and "Art" in every sentence. You can speak properly without sounding like you're in Hamlet.  But it's an RP server. Act like it. I'm looking at you, WoW.

 

And just like people who say "Don't like it, don't listen to OOC chat" would comment, if you don't like it, don't play on an RP server. There are plenty of PVP/PvE/Pissing Contest servers for you to muck around in.

 

God forbid they actually ever enforced the rules on servers with an RP ruleset. The population would probably drop faster than Sarah Palin's chances of a presidential bid.

What if you're RP'ing a slave master?

Originally posted by jakojako

Originally posted by TuxedoSLY

Originally posted by kalagaraz

Originally posted by jakojako

Honestly, i don't understand why people get so easily offended (especially over games). Oh someone said nigger, big deal, I hear it in real life more often than i do in any game. Same with gay, retard, and many other "offensive" words.

Come on, I know according to the article people told you this, but the chat censor is there in EVERY mmo for a reason. Use it if you can't handle what people say. Don't throw a hissy-fit just because someone said a word.

 

Exactly. You may not like the word, but that doesn't mean you should ban all other people from using it. They probably arn't even using it in the same context as you (as in my example of Gay in my previous post).  Part of playing a MMO (which is global) is the understanding of other peoples cultures and backgrounds. Not forcing yours on them. If people like article writer ran the world we'd still be having holy crusades.

 

Not even touching the ignorance in thinking using terms like "gay" in a derogatory sense is demeaning and insulting. I will however merely state that talk like that in an OOC channel, while disgusting, is optional and you don't have to listen to it. Unfortunately thats where freedom of speech comes in and allows any dumbass to say any dumbass thing they want.

 

Now, if the same thing was said in an RP channel, or in game on an RP server, then its perfectly OK for that person to be tarred, feathered, and banned. In game isn't about "my generation," you're playing a character and that character wouldn't say things that wouldn't be appropriate for the time. And I'm not talking about everyone has to say "Thou" and "Art" in every sentence. You can speak properly without sounding like you're in Hamlet.  But it's an RP server. Act like it. I'm looking at you, WoW.

 

And just like people who say "Don't like it, don't listen to OOC chat" would comment, if you don't like it, don't play on an RP server. There are plenty of PVP/PvE/Pissing Contest servers for you to muck around in.

 

God forbid they actually ever enforced the rules on servers with an RP ruleset. The population would probably drop faster than Sarah Palin's chances of a presidential bid.

What if you're RP'ing a slave master?

Well, when there's an MMO based on early American history...then I guess it would be appropriate (though still a clarion of the ignorant and low-brow). As for these "fantasy" worlds of current, I'd highly doubt such lexicon is invented. The slurs, for those adamant about carrying that banner, would have been based on the lore of that particular world.

Freedom of speech... That means that you can say whatever you please (within certain sensible limits) and the government can't fine you, imprison you, or otherwise punish you for it. That really is all.

Basically, it means that you're allowed to talk smack, but I'm allowed to consider you an asshole for it, too. ;)

Part of understanding and empathizing with other people is knowing that we aren't, actually, all one big happy family.  We can talk about the nature of particular words and the emotional baggage they carry until we are blue in the face, it will serve no practical purpose.  While certainly some of these words are used simply as expressions of speech, many times they are used for precisely the reason that many posters in this thread abhor:  enmity and dislike of others.  Note that words are not needed to accomplish such acts of "bigotry" and malice - actions work even better, especially in the 3D game environments of modern MMOs.

And because I understand this, I can refrain from censoring my brother in a misguided attempt to cripple my antagonist.

Yet I also have a dream, a dream where characters and sentient beings of many types live in a simpler time where continual interaction with antagonists is not necessary, or involves a much less complicated approach.  I call this dream "fantasy," and MMORPGs used to be one of the vehicles of my daydreaming.  People with similar dreams used to join me there, and we interacted in a way where the terms "politically correct" and "bigoted" really had no meaning.  The question that haunts me now is, why has this dream of mine died?

The not-so-secret truth of the MMO underbelly is that as long as people who have intense dislike for one another are paying to play the same game, the interactions involved will continue to uphold hatred, malice, and the offending language deemed necessary to convey them.

Anyone notice that it's always the PvP-centric games that are overflowing with vile crap? I quit Eve Online after taking an hours-long tour through .5 and up space, reading the chat logs and finding that 2/3 of the zones had scumbags broadcasting slimy sh8 in open chat.

I tried out CoH and for the heck of it, made a char on both RP and non-RP servers just to see the difference. The non-RP server had some questionable crud (female characters made like sluts and named for sex acts, etc.) and the chat had moderate idiocy in it. However, the RP server was the nicest, most game-play focused server I'd ever seen, with self-policing all over the place. Characters with dirty names were gone the next day, nothing bad was allowed to happen in open chat without player warnings and mass reports if it continued. Although I can't RP at all, it was great to play there.

Later I played LOTRO (non-RP server) and found the same thing as the RP CoH server- a very cool set of people who were just there to play the game, and had no problem policing out those who were there to cause trouble.

I think that's actually key - people who PvP see the game as an instrument to interfere with other people's gameplay, whereas people who PvE are there to play the game itself. And RP people subsume their own characters into those of their character, further restricting their behavior in chat to that which contributes to the game.

Not sure about the PvP RP people though, but my guess is real PvP'rs think the RP ones are "gay" anyways lol.

Originally posted by Auton

Freedom of speech... That means that you can say whatever you please (within certain sensible limits) and the government can't fine you, imprison you, or otherwise punish you for it. That really is all.

Basically, it means that you're allowed to talk smack, but I'm allowed to consider you an asshole for it, too. ;)

Actually, it only means that the government can't do anything. Anyone else can. And the government isn't allowed to interfere with that because that is also an exercise of free speech ;)

I have a question. If he had been calling a person of European decent a "cracker" would they have been banned with in 2 minutes?