Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by templarga

So anyone come up with a reason why NCSoft wouldn't have mentioned an increase in players from 1.5 million to 3.5 million in a beta test? Just curious, I asked the question before and people would prefer to nitpick than actually logically consider the question at all.

 

The last offical word from NCSoft were the famous Nadia links I already mentioned:

The report (published in MAY) and with figures from the end of april showed:

154 servers with approx 1.500.000 players.    As a matter of fact spread over 41 Korean srvers and 113 Chinese.

Like you said ONE AU source suddenly mentioned  3.5 M instead of those 1.5M  hardly 5 weeks later.

The AU source was NEVER confirmed by an offical NCSoft press release.

If I or YOU or ANYONE else would have an increase of 150% in an mmorgp: they would have SCREAMED it from the roofs.

But they didn't.

They simply don't have the servers added. In fact they went from 154 servers to 162. 

That is a 5.5% growth in servers.

No game has a 150% growth with a 5.5% server growth. It is simple math. Servers are put out in relation to added players AND deducted the other way around.

All the rest is fan talk of a game they played for one day on a trial weekend up and to the incredible level ...10 (not even a flying experience and no PvP).

Another hype and another "some more copied stuff".

While Blizzard makes for some fantastic new changes in the standard mmorpg everyone plays, some guys think a Korean game will lie its way to the top.

Just see and look at Icarus. :--))

 

 

Just level 10 and no flying?  Gotta love it when people spew ignorance all over the forum floor, eh?

First beta weekend, I took characters as high as 12, including flying.

Second beta weekend, again more flying.

Yes, we get it, you're a WoW fanboi and everything else sucks, but at least make an attempt to know what you're talking about.

Oh level 12 ! grtz and how were the translated Korean text boxes ? :))

But ... You didn't answer the arguments of Templarga did you? :)))

Like he said you dribble  the hot potatoe. Just look at the Xfire numbers. it shows the second Beta had already less players than first Beta.

We have seen it these last 3 years just once too many and a Korean copycat is just another clone too many.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by templarga

So anyone come up with a reason why NCSoft wouldn't have mentioned an increase in players from 1.5 million to 3.5 million in a beta test? Just curious, I asked the question before and people would prefer to nitpick than actually logically consider the question at all.

 

The last offical word from NCSoft were the famous Nadia links I already mentioned:

The report (published in MAY) and with figures from the end of april showed:

154 servers with approx 1.500.000 players.    As a matter of fact spread over 41 Korean srvers and 113 Chinese.

Like you said ONE AU source suddenly mentioned  3.5 M instead of those 1.5M  hardly 5 weeks later.

The AU source was NEVER confirmed by an offical NCSoft press release.

If I or YOU or ANYONE else would have an increase of 150% in an mmorgp: they would have SCREAMED it from the roofs.

But they didn't.

They simply don't have the servers added. In fact they went from 154 servers to 162. 

That is a 5.5% growth in servers.

No game has a 150% growth with a 5.5% server growth. It is simple math. Servers are put out in relation to added players AND deducted the other way around.

All the rest is fan talk of a game they played for one day on a trial weekend up and to the incredible level ...10 (not even a flying experience and no PvP).

Another hype and another "some more copied stuff".

While Blizzard makes for some fantastic new changes in the standard mmorpg everyone plays, some guys think a Korean game will lie its way to the top.

Just see and look at Icarus. :--))

 

 

Just level 10 and no flying?  Gotta love it when people spew ignorance all over the forum floor, eh?

First beta weekend, I took characters as high as 12, including flying.

Second beta weekend, again more flying.

Yes, we get it, you're a WoW fanboi and everything else sucks, but at least make an attempt to know what you're talking about.

 

Oh level 12 ! grtz and how were the translated Korean text boxes ? :))

But ... You didn't answer the arguments of Templarga did you? :)))

Like he said you dribble  the hot potatoe. Just look at the Xfire numbers. it shows the second Beta had already less players than first Beta.

We have seen it these last 3 years just once too many and a Korean copycat is just another clone too many.

My leveling to 12 only shows that you're talking out of your ass and know nothing.   Of course, just as in every other thread, when this is pointed out you just ignore it and keep your trolling.

And by the way, the translated text boxes were great, thanks for asking.

Actually you can level to 10 and not get to the flying quest or the class quest. I am not saying they were difficult (more like sad really - the final quest before ascension - "go to 4 parts of the newbie zone and talk to people" - please) but it doesn't mean you didn't level to 10. Personally, by that point I was ready to quit and give up....

The only reeason i didn't was a nice Aion poster/fanboi in the Aion forums recommended to try to go past that point. That I did, only to be rewarded with more of the same.

My answer to your poll question was an unequivocal YES, however....I don't know if AION will be that competition, to be honest.  Time will tell.

WoW = RPG ripped off of EQ, which was ripped off of D&D.

Aion = RPG ripped off of traditional RPG's.

Aion won't kill WoW. No single game is going to do that, it's silly to think otherwise. Aion will take a few bites, then another game will take a few bites, then another. Hell, Aion already has taken a few bites. 1.5m or 3.5m it doesn't matter, it's already started.

Aion has better graphics than WoW, but can still run on a lot of systems. Aion has argueably a better crafting system and certainly a more meaningful PvP system.

If people like Aion, cool. If people like WoW, also cool. Neither company pays me to advertise for them so I'm not going to go around telling people which one is better.

I have a level 38 gladiator on the CH version, so I have a good view of what the game is. I like it, I'll probably end up playing it. A lot of people already like Aion, it's show tremendous growth for having only been out a year no matter if you use 1.5 or 3.5. We've already proven Zorn wrong and he refuses to acknowledge it, we used his own math and more technical knowledge. Chances are it's 3.5m because nobody has yet to answer why NCsoft would bother inflating figures and risk massive lawsuits.

Originally posted by arthen999

with aion reputedly having 3.5 million subs in the asian market already it looks like blizzard may finally be up against some real competition of course how aion will do in the west remains to be seen , but all indications are that it offers a westernised leveling model and is not your basic asian grinder . of course it offers a different approach to fantasy than the standard tolkienesque setting we see in a lot of mmos such as warcraft , everquest and of course lord of the rings online . that does nt actually mean it wont be a success in the west . after all single player games from asia have been massivly successful . there is no reason at all that an mmo with the right elements should nt be .

i ve not played aion but most of what i ve heard about it has been possative . this is pretty much unheard of in mmo forums .

so if it is a game that offeres mass appeal what could this mean for warcraft .

well it ll be interesting to see how wow is doing in asia at the moment for a start . if aion really does have as vast a userbase as has been reported it means we shall soon see a decline in warcraft subscriber numbers in the asian market . it would be interesting to hear from someone that plays on an asian server to find out what is happening there .

warcraft obviously has enough dedicated and addicted players to keep it going for many years to come . but from the sounds of it aion may offer blizzard its first serious challenge .

if thier is any truth in how well aion is doing and how good it is blizzard may be facing thier first serious challenge to date . proberbly not a wowkiller but maybe a wowmaimer .

 

I played WoW extensively for years.  I've played the Aion beta previews and I'm currently playing the chinese version of the game.

First, lets talk about what warcraft does better. WoW is wayyy better at PvE(boss encounters are more elaborate, instances are built better, raiding is more challenging on an intellectual level).  It's combat system is smoother.   It handles lag better.  It's interface is vastly superior because of its modability. Character talent customizations and options are more varied in WoW (although both basically have the cookie cutter setups, so its somewhat of a mute point)  And if you like an arena type of PvP... obviously its the most rewarding system of that fashion.    The quest system is obviously better too... although Aion isn't a game that requires grinding like you'd expect from most asian MMOs.  Having said that the Chinese version is pretty grindy after level 30... but its ver 1.0.  The NA/EU version is 1.5, which is supposedly a extreme improvement on quests post level 30, as well as adding more experience to all quests.  I believe they're goal is to be able to quest to cap, and I'm pretty sure they are almost there in the newer versions.

Aion is a much better overall PvP game.   The classes feel far more  balanced.  The Abyss system of a huge contested zone w/ a give/take point reward system just feels much more right than the lameness that is BGs and Arena.  World PvP thrives in this game, be in through small roaming groups,  solo gankers looking for easy targets, or mass groups seiging castles.  This is pretty much the absolute opposite of WoW, where BGs and Arena pretty much kill all serious world PvP outside of the joke that is Wintersgrasp.

Obviously Aion is a much improved game graphically.  The armor sets are outstanding and varied, the animations are top notch, the environments are beautiful.   Customization options are ridiculously better. The game also runs remakably smooth w/ multiple players on screen... like really smooth.  I'm curious as to how even a game w/ the coding polish of WoW doesn't pull this off, and yet Aion completely knocks it out of the park with greatly superior graphics. 

Crafting is extremely superior to WoW.  The best PvE items come from crafting.  It makes crafting a useful and important part of the game from beginning to end.  Being an expert in your craft is a big deal, it takes alot of time and gold and rewards the player at being able to make some of the best armor/weapons in the game.  The consumable system adds another level of depth to PvP.  Using the proper consumables to boost your toons up, eat the right pots/food (flight boosts, health, mana, cleansing, etc) is a huge part of being successful.  The game definitely tends to reward the prepared.

Aions biggest problem actually relates to its main marketing point.  Flight. The game does not handle melee vs range well in flight.  It's incredibily difficult to catch a running opponent because your constantly "out of range" as melee... and then when your toons actually does catch them finally,  the animation times causes you to slow down enough so that you fall back out of range again.  It's really annoying and I'm not at all sure if/how they are going to fix it(they have implemented extendable weapons in the newer version, which i understand help abit). 

 At the end of the day though, WoW is a PvE game w/ PvP minigames.  Aion is a PvP game w/ PvE mingames.  If you really want to compare Aion to something compare it to DAoC or Warhammer.

Originally posted by comerb

 

I played WoW extensively for years.  I've played the Aion beta previews and I'm currently playing the chinese version of the game.

First, lets talk about what warcraft does better. WoW is wayyy better at PvE(boss encounters are more elaborate, instances are built better, raiding is more challenging on an intellectual level).  Wow' 's combat system is smoother.   It handles lag better.  It's interface is vastly superior because of its modability. Character talent customizations and options are more varied in WoW (although both basically have the cookie cutter setups, so its somewhat of a mute point)  And if you like an arena type of PvP... obviously its the most rewarding system of that fashion.    The quest system is obviously better too... although Aion isn't a game that requires grinding like you'd expect from most asian MMOs.  Having said that the Chinese version is pretty grindy after level 30... but its ver 1.0.  The NA/EU version is 1.5, which is supposedly a extreme improvement on quests post level 30, as well as adding more experience to all quests.  I believe they're goal is to be able to quest to cap, and I'm pretty sure they are almost there in the newer versions.

Aion is a much better overall PvP game.   The classes feel far more  balanced.  ......

Aions biggest problem actually relates to its main marketing point.  Flight. The game does not handle melee vs range well in flight.  It's incredibily difficult to catch a running opponent because your constantly "out of range" as melee... and then when your toons actually does catch them finally,  the animation times causes you to slow down enough so that you fall back out of range again.  It's really annoying and I'm not at all sure if/how they are going to fix it(they have implemented extendable weapons in the newer version, which i understand help abit). 

 At the end of the day though, WoW is a PvE game w/ PvP minigames.  Aion is a PvP game w/ PvE mingames.  If you really want to compare Aion to something compare it to DAoC or Warhammer.

 

There are some discrepancies in your views. Just wanted to point that out.

It is of course because the game is new to you.

First PVP: the BASIS for ALL pvp is the fluid and absolute control of your avatar. See the blue in your post about WOW yourself.

Lesson 1: that's THE win of Wow over ANY other mmorpg these days. If you don't have the BEST PvP fluid controls and responsiveness you don't beat Wow in PvP tactical combat (you call it arena, I call it ANYWHERE). Any game with lower responsiveness, laggy and or uncontrolled feeling of the avatar has been a dead duck in the long run. Certainly for a PvP based game.

Lesson 2: The classes in Aoin "feel" more balanced. Let's talk facts here. Let's talk data. What? you don't have data to discuss? Where are the registred PvP fights like an arena system should show.

They don't .... exist. So it is easy to say "feel" balanced. It is based on zero facts. At least you can discuss Arena results and interaction. Here you don't (as always).

Lesson 3: The flight mechanism in Aion already killed of melee fights for you. Both in distance as in ... animation timings. Great.

------- Second PVE -----

------> So as you already mentioned PVE is nowhere comparable to the qulaity of Blizzard's raids and dungeons where does that leave us, according to your own experience;

A PvP based game where - helas- the controls lack the "smoother" control and superior "interface" and responsiveness (what you call lag free) of Wow.

Where did I hear these arguments already (unresposive and laggy combat and lacking in the PVE department).

Tx for the update on the next Korean dud apparently.

I'm not sure why people are comparing Aion to WoW. From my personal experience, it's more of a mixture between Lineage 2 and Everquest 2. From Lineage 2 it inherited the art style and world PvP system (although faction based this time). From EQ2 it inherited the PvE style and some of the crafting elements. It also uses the exact keyboard mapping with EQ2.

The more I think about it, the less similarities I find in the game design.

To Zorndorf:

Lesson 1: If you play Aion, you'll realise that the avatars are equally fluid and responsive as in WoW.

Lesson 2: I'm hyped about world PvP. The fact that Aion has no arena-like gameplay is a big PLUS in my book. Others may disagree of course. On that note, the absence of public data on balance does not mean lack of balance. And feeling is pretty important if  you're a player, hence the flavour class of the month (currently DKs it seem).

Lesson 3: I will refrain from commenting due to my own lack of personal experience.

For me the whole deal about Aion is real world PvP. Not flying. And since Blizzard refuses to take the game towards that direction, it's a mute point. As for PvE, I'll also refrain from commenting before playing the EU version of the game (patch 1.5 officially confirmed).

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by comerb

 

I played WoW extensively for years.  I've played the Aion beta previews and I'm currently playing the chinese version of the game.

First, lets talk about what warcraft does better. WoW is wayyy better at PvE(boss encounters are more elaborate, instances are built better, raiding is more challenging on an intellectual level).  Wow' 's combat system is smoother.   It handles lag better.  It's interface is vastly superior because of its modability. Character talent customizations and options are more varied in WoW (although both basically have the cookie cutter setups, so its somewhat of a mute point)  And if you like an arena type of PvP... obviously its the most rewarding system of that fashion.    The quest system is obviously better too... although Aion isn't a game that requires grinding like you'd expect from most asian MMOs.  Having said that the Chinese version is pretty grindy after level 30... but its ver 1.0.  The NA/EU version is 1.5, which is supposedly a extreme improvement on quests post level 30, as well as adding more experience to all quests.  I believe they're goal is to be able to quest to cap, and I'm pretty sure they are almost there in the newer versions.

Aion is a much better overall PvP game.   The classes feel far more  balanced.  ......

Aions biggest problem actually relates to its main marketing point.  Flight. The game does not handle melee vs range well in flight.  It's incredibily difficult to catch a running opponent because your constantly "out of range" as melee... and then when your toons actually does catch them finally,  the animation times causes you to slow down enough so that you fall back out of range again.  It's really annoying and I'm not at all sure if/how they are going to fix it(they have implemented extendable weapons in the newer version, which i understand help abit). 

 At the end of the day though, WoW is a PvE game w/ PvP minigames.  Aion is a PvP game w/ PvE mingames.  If you really want to compare Aion to something compare it to DAoC or Warhammer.

 

 

There are some discrepancies in your views. Just wanted to point that out.

It is of course because the game is new to you.

First PVP: the BASIS for ALL pvp is the fluid and absolute control of your avatar. See the blue in your post about WOW yourself.

Lesson 1: that's THE win of Wow over ANY other mmorpg these days. If you don't have the BEST PvP fluid controls and responsiveness you don't beat Wow in PvP tactical combat (you call it arena, I call it ANYWHERE). Any game with lower responsiveness, laggy and or uncontrolled feeling of the avatar has been a dead duck in the long run. Certainly for a PvP based game.

Lesson 2: The classes in Aoin "feel" more balanced. Let's talk facts here. Let's talk data. What? you don't have data to discuss? Where are the registred PvP fights like an arena system should show.

They don't .... exist. So it is easy to say "feel" balanced. It is based on zero facts. At least you can discuss Arena results and interaction. Here you don't (as always).

Lesson 3: The flight mechanism in Aion already killed of melee fights for you. Both in distance as in ... animation timings. Great.

------- Second PVE -----

------> So as you already mentioned PVE is nowhere comparable to the qulaity of Blizzard's raids and dungeons where does that leave us, according to your own experience;

 

A PvP based game where - helas- the controls lack the "smoother" control and superior "interface" and responsiveness (what you call lag free) of Wow.

Where did I hear these arguments already (unresposive and laggy combat and lacking in the PVE department).

Tx for the update on the next Korean dud apparently.

 

Wow, the guy gives a somewhat objective comparison about the two games and you still flame him, then degrade into bashing Aion.  Again.  Not everyone is going to like WoW, Zorndorf.  Might as well accept it.  I know not everyone is going to like Aion - and I celebrate it. 

@comerb - you think the latency issues may be because you're playing on a server halfway across the world?  I noticed in many of the videos on Youtube, the speaker (coldturkey, I think his name is) mentions the fact that he is playing on Chinese servers as the reason for his latency.

From my own experience playing in Beta, I've had no issues of anything being unresponsive, laggy or anything of that nature.  Everything has been smooth as silk.

@comerb - you think the latency issues may be because you're playing on a server halfway across the world?  I noticed in many of the videos on Youtube, the speaker (coldturkey, I think his name is) mentions the fact that he is playing on Chinese servers as the reason for his latency.

From my own experience playing in Beta, I've had no issues of anything being unresponsive, laggy or anything of that nature.  Everything has been smooth as silk.

What I meant by WoW handles latency better, is that when latency -exists- WoW handles it in a much smoother fashion.  Aion has a tendency to rubberband, especially in flight, when latency is poor.  Aion also has alot of reactive spells that are time based(ie you have so much time to counterattack after a parry, etc)... this combined w/ time limited combos make the game hurt more under a high latency environment.

Having said that I have had absolutely no issues w/ latency while on the US beta server at all..  Honestly I probably shouldn't even have mentioned it, because 99% of the time its not an issue.   The game plays very smooth  on the US servers w/ no latency issues.

The flight thing is still an issue.  Its not latency related, but seems to be an actual flaw in the game's engine.  That's just speculation on my part though, so take it with a grain of salt.  Like I said they introduced the extendo weapons, which imo is their attempt to combat this.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Xasapis

Even if Aion ends up being an average experience, one can't just dismiss a factor that will eventually drive eventually people away from WoW. That factor is burnout. Even the best food starts to taste bad if that's the only thing you get to eat for years.

If nothing else, the initial extremely good launches (despite what happened after a while) of both WAR and AoC clearly indicates that the burnout factor is very high in WoW. Luckily for Blizzard, noone yet has managed to capitalize on that.

I don't think that Aion will have any serious impact on WoW in the West, mainly due to the difference in exposure between the two games and the not so bright history of NCsoft among gamers. In this regard, Bioware and SW:TOR have a bigger chance to poke a bigger hole into WoW's shield. Remains to be seen of course, for both games.

 

The famous burnnout factor is not really going anywhere these days. Not in the numbers everyone thinks.

As can be seen by www.xfire.com Wow holds on to around 60% marketshare (incuding the free to play modules). If burnout would be that bad, Wow would have lost at least 10-20%% marketshare 6 months after WotLK.

Mark Jacobs misjudged the burnout of Wow completely.

The question is HOW many people stayed with Wow despite they were buying a new hyped mmorpg in 2008?  I mean AoC and WAR launched within a 4 month time bracket with EACH around 800K copies in their first month launches.

And the result is ... Wow has at least the same market share as before those launches (as some other games apparently shrinked or even dissapeaered from the scene). And Wotlk is only half way its content cycle, not even near the Litch King end dungeons.

Some blame it to the fact that "they" were " not polished enough". So why did LOtrO burn at the same rate?

I agree on the second part of the post.

Bioware brings out extremely good games in single player modes. That's why I skip the next batch of mmorpg's (and to be fair you can save a lot of money with it). Only going to dabble a little bit in Star Trek but only for the Lore interest. I expect nothing special out of ST design wise).

I expect most people will want to try others, but that's what we see : they "try" and "burnout" is not really an issue if you look at global numbers.

I'm sorry to tell you but some of that 60% is people playing wow on private servers.

Did you know that xfire still get their time?

Originally posted by comerb

 

What I meant by WoW handles latency better, is that when latency -exists- WoW handles it in a much smoother fashion.  Aion has a tendency to rubberband, especially in flight, when latency is poor.  Aion also has alot of reactive spells that are time based(ie you have so much time to counterattack after a parry, etc)... this combined w/ time limited combos make the game hurt more under a high latency environment.

Having said that I have had absolutely no issues w/ latency while on the US beta server at all..  Honestly I probably shouldn't even have mentioned it, because 99% of the time its not an issue.   The game plays very smooth  on the US servers w/ no latency issues.

The flight thing is still an issue.  Its not latency related, but seems to be an actual flaw in the game's engine.  That's just speculation on my part though, so take it with a grain of salt.  Like I said they introduced the extendo weapons, which imo is their attempt to combat this.

Perhaps I should remind you of what you wrote ... 10 minutes ago:

" Wow' 's combat system is smoother. It handles lag better. It's interface is vastly superior because of its modability. Character talent customizations and options are more varied in WoW."

The videos already showed me a lot in Aion and explains the things you were saying above.

The fact you also added the problems with the flying thing with melee classes and the flights latency is "poor" shows from a tactical and control point the game is not as fluid as Wow pvp mechanics.

That only leaves the now famous and old "world pvp" thing out as the PVE content isn't even comparable.

Of course Wow has world PvP. Problem is PvP is PvP and the best PvP is the one with the most fluid reponsive controls or like you would put out "simply smoother".

As always :))))

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by comerb

 

What I meant by WoW handles latency better, is that when latency -exists- WoW handles it in a much smoother fashion.  Aion has a tendency to rubberband, especially in flight, when latency is poor.  Aion also has alot of reactive spells that are time based(ie you have so much time to counterattack after a parry, etc)... this combined w/ time limited combos make the game hurt more under a high latency environment.

Having said that I have had absolutely no issues w/ latency while on the US beta server at all..  Honestly I probably shouldn't even have mentioned it, because 99% of the time its not an issue.   The game plays very smooth  on the US servers w/ no latency issues.

The flight thing is still an issue.  Its not latency related, but seems to be an actual flaw in the game's engine.  That's just speculation on my part though, so take it with a grain of salt.  Like I said they introduced the extendo weapons, which imo is their attempt to combat this.

 

Perhaps I should remind you of what you wrote ... 10 minutes ago:

" Wow' 's combat system is smoother. It handles lag better. It's interface is vastly superior because of its modability. Character talent customizations and options are more varied in WoW."

The videos already showed me a lot in Aion and explains the things you were saying above.

The fact you also added the problems with the flying thing with melee classes and the flights latency is "poor" shows from a tactical and control point the game is not as fluid as Wow pvp mechanics.

That only leaves the now famous and old "world pvp" thing out as the PVE content isn't even comparable.

Of course Wow has world PvP. Problem is PvP is PvP and the best PvP is the one with the most fluid reponsive controls or like you would put out "simply smoother".

As always :))))

We get it, Zorn. You're threatened.  Or, your game is.  You've been so for two weeks (at least as long as I've been here versus the beta boards - which open tomorrow, so thankfully I won't be around for a few days).  All you can do is bash a game that you've only watched on Youtube and preach about how WoW is so much more superior. 

Now, I was always taught to have experience in both realms before commenting on both.  I do.  I played WoW for years.  I used to love it.  Now, I've been playing Aion and it was like that first step into Ironforge all over again.  Not to say that Aion = WoW (because I know that's how you'll take it, that it is a copy of WoW, hence a similar experience).  But it isn't.   The feeling of enjoying your surroundings, the gameplay, the mechanics, the spell effects, the music, the look of your character - all that isn't new - I shared that in EQ and in WoW.  And now I share it in Aion.  In just a few days of playing.  I've been itching to play again. 

But I'm not allowed to feel that way.  You won't let me.  You won't have it.  Comerb was talking to me about the latency.  And you had to remind him that he said WoW was better.  We weren't even discussing WoW.  We were dicussing the latency and if it was an issue of server spread or not.  But then you had to point out his post and remind him of what he wrote.  That sounds like something that feels threatened.  Continually reminding you why it's the best.  Sounds like you're trying to reinforce yourself.  It is the best right?  Right?

So, those that want to play and are looking forward to it - *gasp* even have positive things to say about it - let them have it.  Or, try out Aion and see for yourself before you make judgement calls based on Youtube.  Either way, I won't ever return to WoW and I know there are droves of others that won't either.  No matter how hard you fight - no matter how much propoganda you plaster all over these forums.  

There are some discrepancies in your views. Just wanted to point that out.

It is of course because the game is new to you.

First PVP: the BASIS for ALL pvp is the fluid and absolute control of your avatar. See the blue in your post about WOW yourself.

Lesson 1: that's THE win of Wow over ANY other mmorpg these days. If you don't have the BEST PvP fluid controls and responsiveness you don't beat Wow in PvP tactical combat (you call it arena, I call it ANYWHERE). Any game with lower responsiveness, laggy and or uncontrolled feeling of the avatar has been a dead duck in the long run. Certainly for a PvP based game.

Lesson 2: The classes in Aoin "feel" more balanced. Let's talk facts here. Let's talk data. What? you don't have data to discuss? Where are the registred PvP fights like an arena system should show.

They don't .... exist. So it is easy to say "feel" balanced. It is based on zero facts. At least you can discuss Arena results and interaction. Here you don't (as always).

Lesson 3: The flight mechanism in Aion already killed of melee fights for you. Both in distance as in ... animation timings. Great.

------- Second PVE -----

------> So as you already mentioned PVE is nowhere comparable to the qulaity of Blizzard's raids and dungeons where does that leave us, according to your own experience;

 

A PvP based game where - helas- the controls lack the "smoother" control and superior "interface" and responsiveness (what you call lag free) of Wow.

Where did I hear these arguments already (unresposive and laggy combat and lacking in the PVE department).

Tx for the update on the next Korean dud apparently.

 

Aion is very fluid in its control.  Your making a mountain out of a molehill.  The difference is near negligible in ground combat.  The game is very responsive, not laggy what-so-ever on local servers, and the only time you "lose control of your character" is when you're CCed.  The controls can be set up identical to WoW.  The only reason WoW "feels" more fluid is because it uses the same generic animation for every skillset.  In Aion, you heavy hitting combo skills sometimes immobilize you while you finish the animiation(they will land regardless, but you might have to make up lost ground)... its a risk/reward scenario... do you go for that killing blow heavy hitting combo w/ the comparitively long animation, or do you keep  on top of your opponent and use different combo options.

Ok... heres the thing.  Aion isn't an arena based game.  There are sanctioned tournaments, and your more than welcome to look them up on youtube... theres about a bajillion of them there.  But its not indicative of the true state of PvP because thats not what Aion PvP is based around(the tournaments are in small arena type enclosers where flying isn't permitted).  True Aion PvP is based on open world abyss combat. 

The PvP feels more balanced because the community agrees that it is.  If you can control the conditions of the fight, you have a good chance of beating any other class.  Ie, if your a ranger and you catch a templar in your element (ie open surroundings w/ flight) you can beat him.  If your a templar and you lead that same ranger into a situation where he's mobility is cut down, you'll make short work of him. These sort of situations lend themselves to almost every class matchup.  There's generally a feeling that you can win any fight if you play well and are smart about picking your fights(and aren't ridiculous outgeared obviously).   

There are no DKs with great damage and outstanding survivability.

There are no Rogues who basically willl never lose a 1v1 fight if they are halfway competetent.

There are no Ret Paladins who will melt someone in 5 seconds and still sport plate/immunitity bubbles, etc

Classes w/ respectable DPS are rightfully fragile, and must be played with great care and used properly. Classes with lower DPS are very capable at wearing people down and providing support either through healing/debuffing/CC etc.  Classes that fall in the middle generally have respectable survivability and provide useful buffs/debuffs.  Classes that are poorer at ground combat excel at air combat (ie rangers/sorcs), classes that are poor at air combat shine at ground combat (ie Spiritmasters, Templars, Assassins).  Classes that excel at solo/small group combat  are weaker in mass PvP, and viceversa. There just seem to be checks and balances everywhere... to the point where I'm having difficulty choosing a potential "main" for the NA launch.  Comparitively If I was going to choose a class in WoW I know exactly what classes I would avoid and which ones I would pick for PvP...

There isn't a single class that I would say is weak or useless at PvP.  At the very worst a class is "gear dependant"... but even those classes are rewarded  for "taking there lumps"(Templars and Assassin's turn from duds to studs if you put the time into them).  I can name half a dozen classes/specs in WoW that are straight up bad at PvP.

Anyway, I've played both games.  Aion is the better PvP game hands down.  It's the total package.  I'm not spinning you a tale because I hate WoW.  I like WoW, I think its a great game... I've just did my time and its time to find something else for me.  You can twist my words and try to make it sound like Aion is just another B class F2P Korean game... but the fact remains that you haven't played it and you've got nothing to base your opinions on but some odd need to strike out at anyone that says a game could possbility be better at some aspect than WoW. 

So the Aion fans invaded the Wow forums.

As long as you want to stay be my guest. I already proved the 3.5 M hype was false and not confirmed by an offical statement. I am sure it won't be the only trash talk we have to endure in our forums for the coming months.

Be my guest to promote the new Wow killer in ... a Wow forum. Odd isn't it ?

But stop changing your minds every 10 minutes of play. Going from PvP in Wow is far smoother to Aion has better PvP and trash talk about Blizzard shows the usual 6 month hate talk. Like the classes: EVERY class is represented in the top teams of the official Wow tournaments. That's an example of showing off ... data.

Curious my data beats out your "half of the classes aren't good for PvP" statement ANY time. These are facts. Data facts.

The fact is you don't have ANY data to even compare classes and interactions in a traceable competition. Like you didn't have any data for its supposed 3.5 M players.

Typical talk of fans invading a WOW forum. Just as if a Korean game will change this industry.

It is as if this game industry only knows one progamming loop with a subroutine "go back to start and redo".

No problem for me, but it won't cure your disorder.

Originally posted by Xasapis

I'm not sure why people are comparing Aion to WoW. From my personal experience, it's more of a mixture between Lineage 2 and Everquest 2. From Lineage 2 it inherited the art style and world PvP system (although faction based this time). From EQ2 it inherited the PvE style and some of the crafting elements. It also uses the exact keyboard mapping with EQ2.

The more I think about it, the less similarities I find in the game design.

This is exactly what I was thinking.  Aion is pretty polished for being in a released state for so long overseas, but it's no where near as polished as WoW being the top MMO on the food chain for so long.

They are based on two different types of playstyles and cater to different kinds of players, just because they have some similarites doesn't mean they can be compared on every level.  WoW wins the battle on pure subscription numbers alone, players can argue what they want but if it comes down to success WoW has the subscriptions and made MMO's more mainstream than even EQ did.

well i managed to see aion for myself this evening . as i thought the early level quests are really much the same as wow offers . its a very smooth game and untlike other contenders we ve seen its not going to be half finnished upon release . the manga characters might not appeal to everyone initially but thats never stopped single player games being successful . its all down to what you get used to . i totally hated the cartoony warcraft graphics when i first played it but game play won out over eye candy . having said that aion offers a lush graphical word that shows its half a decade in advance of wow without being so system heavy that it ll only play well on top spec systems . its difficult to see how warcraft fans will be able to right this game off as another warhammer or age of conan .

i cant say for sure weather i m an aion fan or will be an aion fan but i can say i m bored with warcraft . i know i m not alone in feeling like that . my msn is full of old wowplayers and current wow players that are at least willing to give aion a go and tell me their wow friends are fed up and are looking for something else and only staying in the game because there has nt been another game thats appealed to them as yet. so who knows how far the disatisfaction goes . it could be that two thirds of the  player base feels no real conection to the game anymore and it would nt take a lot for them to leave .

even years or work on a much loved character does nt counteract boredom . it may make you return to wow to maintain it but eventually it wont stop you trying something new and a little more advanced .

its hard to know what aion will mean for wow . we are about to find out though and so far the arguements leveled by trolls seam to have very little substance .  i think thats becoming very clear .

Originally posted by arthen999

 we are about to find out though and so far the arguements leveled by trolls seam to have very little substance .  i think thats becoming very clear .

Well the reason the arguments by the so-called "trolls" (I call them people who don't like the game and have valid reasons why but are called trolls simply to discredit their opinion) lack substance because Aion lacks substance. :)

Seriously though, a lot of the complaints about Aion are very valid and very true, it just depends on what the player wants in a game. Take for example, me. I have the linear aspect of the game. I am sorry but 1-10 is very, very linear. It makes 1-20 in AOC look like a wide open space. The reason I didn't mind it in AOC is that the graphics of AOC were more appealing to me, the combat was more fun and it was very story driven.

I felt none of that in Aion. However, I guess I am just a troll so just discredit everything I say.

Originally posted by natuxatu

Some people who have played WoW will get bored with Aion some wont. When will people learn that there is no one answer to what qualifies as a good game. There are so many different opinions about WoW and the same will be true for Aion.

This pretty much sums up everything perfectly.  WoW was an evolution for MMO's much like EQ before it.  More and more they have become mainstream entertainment pulling more and different types of gamers in.  I started in DAoC but I have many RL friends who began MMO's in WoW.

No game will hold every players attention forever, some will go on and play Aion while others will try and return to WoW or other games.  It's a cycle all MMO's face as many people have stated a game can make a profit without WoW like sub numbers and be successful.  As long as you enjoy what you play, there's nothing really to argue.

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by arthen999

 we are about to find out though and so far the arguements leveled by trolls seam to have very little substance .  i think thats becoming very clear .

Well the reason the arguments by the so-called "trolls" (I call them people who don't like the game and have valid reasons why but are called trolls simply to discredit their opinion) lack substance because Aion lacks substance. :)

Seriously though, a lot of the complaints about Aion are very valid and very true, it just depends on what the player wants in a game. Take for example, me. I have the linear aspect of the game. I am sorry but 1-10 is very, very linear. It makes 1-20 in AOC look like a wide open space. The reason I didn't mind it in AOC is that the graphics of AOC were more appealing to me, the combat was more fun and it was very story driven.

I felt none of that in Aion. However, I guess I am just a troll so just discredit everything I say.

It sounds like your actually leveling the same criticsm at aion that could be levelled at ever other mmo i ve played . Including warcraft . I would say to people looking at these forums to read between the lines . For some reason Warcraft players want to shoot down every other mmo that comes along . The thing is another successful mmorpg would be good for wow players because it might make Blizzard up thier game . Lets face it they have shown no sign of listening to its playerbase about a number of in game issues . Aion in my opinion will offer people who get bored with warcraft a very real alternative for the first time . Aion is about as linier in terms of early quests as Warcraft is . Its nothing like Conans all instanced gameplay . Its hard to tell what depth it has in such early levels . I ve heard a lot of trolls saying warcraft lacks substance  . Maybe it does compared to other mmos but i found it to be a lot of fun to play just as Aion is .

To players who are in doubt i would say wait untill theres a free trial or a review or two . The thing is i know once most of you play it for yourselves you ll see its a great game .  Unlike every other mmo released since warcraft this game offers the fun factor . it also is nt being released too early . Its smooth to play and its graphics are a vast improvement on Warcrafts .

If your happy in Warcraft stay there but if you dont like the way the games going or you ve become so familar with the content you  need a change of scene then this game will offer you a new home . I went into Warcraft this week after a break and i found the chat channels were buzzing about Aion .It was nt all possaitve of course but the majority of people seamed to be saying how amazing it was ( obviously after playing the beta ) . I think a lot of people are bored and want something new . Its not because wow is a bad game but its been around a long time now and a lot of players have seen most of what it has to offer and a new instance or battleground really does nt cut it anymore for them .

Originally posted by googajoob7

Originally posted by templarga

Originally posted by arthen999

 we are about to find out though and so far the arguements leveled by trolls seam to have very little substance .  i think thats becoming very clear .

Well the reason the arguments by the so-called "trolls" (I call them people who don't like the game and have valid reasons why but are called trolls simply to discredit their opinion) lack substance because Aion lacks substance. :)

Seriously though, a lot of the complaints about Aion are very valid and very true, it just depends on what the player wants in a game. Take for example, me. I have the linear aspect of the game. I am sorry but 1-10 is very, very linear. It makes 1-20 in AOC look like a wide open space. The reason I didn't mind it in AOC is that the graphics of AOC were more appealing to me, the combat was more fun and it was very story driven.

I felt none of that in Aion. However, I guess I am just a troll so just discredit everything I say.

It sounds like your actually leveling the same criticsm at aion that could be levelled at ever other mmo i ve played . Including warcraft . I would say to people looking at these forums to read between the lines . For some reason Warcraft players want to shoot down every other mmo that comes along . The thing is another successful mmorpg would be good for wow players because it might make Blizzard up thier game . Lets face it they have shown no sign of listening to its playerbase about a number of in game issues . Aion in my opinion will offer people who get bored with warcraft a very real alternative for the first time . Aion is about as linier in terms of early quests as Warcraft is . Its nothing like Conans all instanced gameplay . Its hard to tell what depth it has in such early levels . I ve heard a lot of trolls saying warcraft lacks substance  . Maybe it does compared to other mmos but i found it to be a lot of fun to play just as Aion is .

To players who are in doubt i would say wait untill theres a free trial or a review or two . The thing is i know once most of you play it for yourselves you ll see its a great game .  Unlike every other mmo released since warcraft this game offers the fun factor . it also is nt being released too early . Its smooth to play and its graphics are a vast improvement on Warcrafts .

If your happy in Warcraft stay there but if you dont like the way the games going or you ve become so familar with the content you  need a change of scene then this game will offer you a new home . I went into Warcraft this week after a break and i found the chat channels were buzzing about Aion .It was nt all possaitve of course but the majority of people seamed to be saying how amazing it was ( obviously after playing the beta ) . I think a lot of people are bored and want something new . Its not because wow is a bad game but its been around a long time now and a lot of players have seen most of what it has to offer and a new instance or battleground really does nt cut it anymore for them .

WOW is not linear at all compared to Aion. Not at all.

How many starter zones do you have per faction in WOW? I think its 4 per faction. So you can start at 8 different locations with different quests. Sure, they may be the same type of quests (no MMO has really been awesome about doing any really new types of quests) but at least the lore or story behind it is different.

Once you get to level 15-20 or so you have 2-3 different zones you can go and level in. At about every 10 levels, you have a choice of zones to go too.

That is not linear.

In Aion, it has 2 starter zones, 1 per faction. That means you will do that same zone EVERY time you want to create an alt. How many times will you do the exact same quests before you grow bored? To put it in WOW terms, that would be like having every character be the same race and do the exact same zones over and over.....something that, in WOW, you do not have to do.

Another issue with Aion is that it has a branching class system. At level 10 you get a new class. What happens if you don't like that class. Can you switch? Nothing indicates that you can. So then you must start over and do those same quests again.

That is linear and once the game releases, it will drive many players from the game. How do I know this? EQ2. It had the exact same class branching system and players hated it and finally SOE relented and created a new trial island where you started as the class you wanted to play.

Well these starting areas are from level 1-10 thats do able within a shortish period of time . After that the game opens up no end . As you have said the quests in the early levels of wow are pretty much identical weather your dwarf tauren or gnome all that really changes is the scenary and the mobs in those levels . What you assume is that people want to make endless alts , i stayed in warcraft 4 years on and off in that time i leveled up one horde and one alliance character to 80 . Thats all i want to fo in Aion ( one for each faction ).

The endgame in an mmo is far more important than the starting area you spend maybe a day or two in after which Aion full potential starts to be realised . I did try and level alts in 2008 on several different servers but gave up because with the faster leveling it was a terrrible grind because i could nt find groups to do mid level instances . Its all about a race to the finnish now and when you get there everything can be achieved within a month or two . The instances are repedative and they all pretty much look and play the same . The battlegrounds are awful because the honor system now makes it so easy to  obtain gear it really does not matter of you win or lose ( this leads to  players not bothering to  try and learn any kind of tactic ) .There no point buying player made items on the ah because you can easily get better from battleground rewards so the trade side of the game has been destroyed . also you know with wow whatever you achieve will be redundant in a couple of years due to the expansion policey .

Blizzard decided to aim the game at children meaning 8-12 year olds . theres nothing wrong in that its been a very successful policey but it also means it does nt offer much to the long term player . I dont know what Aion really offers neither do the majority of people in the west . We ve seen a snippet in a couple of beta weekends . To be honest i did nt like warcraft at the start i think i got to level 26 and gave it up for a while because the gameplay seamed to be hunt this hunt that which i thought was boring . It was only because friends told me about the later content i returned and found it to be a fantastic game . I m not a wowhater by any means but its a game thats really gone down hill in terms of community and gamerplay in the last couple of years . Aion looks like it has potential you only have to play it for a couple of hours to see that .

I m a bored Warcraft player i have no intention of leveling an alt to  80 just to be stuck in the same old rut .Aion offers something different and it looks and plays like a dream . ok if its not what i hope it is i ll give it up but this ones worth taking a chance on and investing some time in .

Its simple if your happy in warcraft stay there . If your not happy with the content Aion might offer you a good alternative . Dont stay in a game for guilds of friends you ll find sooner or later they ll all move on and you ll make new ones elsewhere anyway

The whole thing about games is to have fun and enjoy them and after all variety is the spice of life .