Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by altairzq

It's very simple:

1) They decided they are too cool to play WOW.

2) They see people having fun playing WOW.

3) They hate they can't play WOW because they are too cool.

4) They attack WOW.

 

It's really not that simple at all.

We get bored with WoW, we want something new and different, but all of the developers  see the success of WoW and want in on it, so they stick to the WoW model and are afraid to try something new.

It's kind of similar to Windows.  There have been plenty of superior operating systems over the years, from OS/2 to BeOS, to countless versions of Linux, and even Mac OS.  But because Windows is "popular", that's what gets supported by hardware manufacturers and software developers.  Not because it is "best", but because that's what is being used.  And then it continues to get used, and people who don't know any better assume it is the best, and the cycle continues.

Popular does not mean best.  Danielle Steele and John Grisham are certainly not the greatest american writers, and I know of no literate person who would make that argument.  But if based on book sales alone, we would have to consider them among the best.  In reality, they write for the lowest common denominator.  They tell a nifty story at a 6th grade writing level.  And that's what WoW is.  It's a nifty little game with a good amount of entertainment value... we just want more.  Danielle Steele and John Grisham aren't good enough for us, we want Douglas Adams, Tom Robbins,  Christopher Moore,  and countless others who don't carry the same mass market appeal.

 

Exactly it's like Windows. It's the best OS around if you look at the big picture. Like WOW is the best Theme Park there is, with difference.

If you want developers to do another thing, then attack those developers, not WOW.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by altairzq

It's very simple:

1) They decided they are too cool to play WOW.

2) They see people having fun playing WOW.

3) They hate they can't play WOW because they are too cool.

4) They attack WOW.

 

It's really not that simple at all.

We get bored with WoW, we want something new and different, but all of the developers  see the success of WoW and want in on it, so they stick to the WoW model and are afraid to try something new.

It's kind of similar to Windows.  There have been plenty of superior operating systems over the years, from OS/2 to BeOS, to countless versions of Linux, and even Mac OS.  But because Windows is "popular", that's what gets supported by hardware manufacturers and software developers.  Not because it is "best", but because that's what is being used.  And then it continues to get used, and people who don't know any better assume it is the best, and the cycle continues.

Popular does not mean best.  Danielle Steele and John Grisham are certainly not the greatest american writers, and I know of no literate person who would make that argument.  But if based on book sales alone, we would have to consider them among the best.  In reality, they write for the lowest common denominator.  They tell a nifty story at a 6th grade writing level.  And that's what WoW is.  It's a nifty little game with a good amount of entertainment value... we just want more.  Danielle Steele and John Grisham aren't good enough for us, we want Douglas Adams, Tom Robbins,  Christopher Moore,  and countless others who don't carry the same mass market appeal.

 

 

Replace the WE with "I" please. As you can't possibly speak for 11.5 million players.

And a market situation doesn't depend on your personal frustration and mood settings of having slept with the wife or not.

And oh btw those communist players who no longer can play WOW since the 7th of June do count in your racism theory I hope.

This market has nothing to do with popular it has everything to do with who has the market.

http://www.xfire.com/genre/mmo/massively_multiplayer_online/

And happely for the west we do have VERY useful tools to counter wrong hype.

If you doubt Xfire: ask Mark JAcobs and the former director of FunCom :)))) how accurate it is. :))))

 

 

 

How could you possibly argue that "market has nothing to do with popular"?  They're the same thing.  And no one here is arguing how popular WoW is, so your Xfire stats are absolutely pointless.  We all acknowledge that WoW is popular. I myself play it all the time.  But that's not the point here.  Your defensive fanboyism is pathetic when it stops you from even having an intelligent conversation.

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by altairzq

It's very simple:

1) They decided they are too cool to play WOW.

2) They see people having fun playing WOW.

3) They hate they can't play WOW because they are too cool.

4) They attack WOW.

 

It's really not that simple at all.

We get bored with WoW, we want something new and different, but all of the developers  see the success of WoW and want in on it, so they stick to the WoW model and are afraid to try something new.

It's kind of similar to Windows.  There have been plenty of superior operating systems over the years, from OS/2 to BeOS, to countless versions of Linux, and even Mac OS.  But because Windows is "popular", that's what gets supported by hardware manufacturers and software developers.  Not because it is "best", but because that's what is being used.  And then it continues to get used, and people who don't know any better assume it is the best, and the cycle continues.

Popular does not mean best.  Danielle Steele and John Grisham are certainly not the greatest american writers, and I know of no literate person who would make that argument.  But if based on book sales alone, we would have to consider them among the best.  In reality, they write for the lowest common denominator.  They tell a nifty story at a 6th grade writing level.  And that's what WoW is.  It's a nifty little game with a good amount of entertainment value... we just want more.  Danielle Steele and John Grisham aren't good enough for us, we want Douglas Adams, Tom Robbins,  Christopher Moore,  and countless others who don't carry the same mass market appeal.

 

 

Exactly it's like Windows. It's the best OS around if you look at the big picture. Like WOW is the best Theme Park there is, with difference.

If you want developers to do another thing, then attack those developers, not WOW.

Developers won't do another thing until there is a market, and while WoW has a stranglehold on the market, that's not going to happen.  That's why the small indi devs are the only ones taking risks, because they're happy with a few hundred thousand subscribers.  It won't be one game that takes WoW off the top, it will be a series of games that cater to the wants of smaller groups, each of them siphoning users away. 

WOW must never be killed.

Seriously, think of the type of people you know who still play WOW, would you really want them playing in your games?

Didn't think so.

Originally posted by Kyleran

WOW must never be killed.

Seriously, think of the type of people you know who still play WOW, would you really want them playing in your games?

Didn't think so.

lol exactly.  That's why I'm ok with each game taking away a few players, skimming the cream off of the top.  WoW can keep the bottom dwellers :p

Originally posted by madeux

Developers won't do another thing until there is a market, and while WoW has a stranglehold on the market, that's not going to happen.  That's why the small indi devs are the only ones taking risks, because they're happy with a few hundred thousand subscribers.  It won't be one game that takes WoW off the top, it will be a series of games that cater to the wants of smaller groups, each of them siphoning users away. 

"You will all be assimilated, resistance is futile."

Oh wait that's from another game. ::))))

Good God, tell me what do you search in MMORPG's s you possibly can't find in WOW? This isn't the kind of live saver 1.000.000 dollar question....

Another riverline, "meaningful PvP" (as if 200.000 dollar awards are not motivating enough), another forest?

Let''s face it. That's it: if you want something completely different step out of the market of level based gear wise Fantasy mmorpg's.

The two wings on Aion's shoulders won't help you out. You can see that with your eyes closed. I hope.

----> the problem is: time is running out, because even the principles of gear and experience levels are changing now.

And I have the impression Kaplan is already right on top of the next evolution in mmo's.

So better hurry up guys.

The true PvP reward system in Wow is based on a rated ladder system in which very rare titles are distributed.
 

Having a deadly gladiaotor title means you topped the competition out of a possible 200.000 plyers (tx to the battlegroup system of linked server competition).

Out of the game there is also the official tournament system which awards player teams with up to 200.000 dollar reward system.

How is that for a reward system. :))

---

items and gear thet level with you exist since WotLK . Better keep up with the MANY game changes lately.

---

Story line CHANGE the complete world around you in its end game. Multiple time actually when you conquer bases on the Lich King. Players standing next to each other can see each other but still see different bases according to their adventure experience.

So these "fundamental" changes are already IN the game. As on the new >PTR, there is the gameplay with experience turned off, the experience gains trough pure PvP, the set changer directly to portable banks, ... (a few million other changes).

Better be on top when posting about WOW these days. The changes come faster than I can type. :))))

And what now? :)

 

 

The "rare titles" are meaningless.  Its a title you can do nothing with, as are the achievements.  There is no sense of loss for your character if you are defeated in open world pvp, as in UO.   You may achieve Deadly Gladiator and flaunt it all you want, but if someone defeats you after you've gained your title, what does it mean? Where's the trophy?

How does the storyline change the game world? In what way? Faction wins? That's temporary.  Read what I wrote. My example sites instances that evolve. Since its an instance, its not an overall change to the game world, so newbs won't have their gameplay affected. However, an instance will no longer be obsolete.  Molten Core would once again have meaning, as the items you gain from its completion would be valuable post level 60. See my point?

What items and gear level with you? Are you talking about gemming your gear? I'm talking about epics made obsolete by BC and beyond. If the epics you worked your butt off to gain could be carried into each expansion, instead of the first BC green that drops turning your epic to yard sale garbage, this would be true immersion. That doesn't exist in the game, does it.

So, where's the immersion? I'm basically starting my character over with every expansion, gear-wise.  There's no continuity, and d where there's no continuity there is no truly immersive experience.  This, imo, is what the game lacks.

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by Nicksd

WoW is just easy to get into, nothing more. The game itself is very lacking.

 

What exactly is it lacking?  List your top 5 features it should have, but doesn't.

5 things I wish WoW had but doesn't huh. Lets see,

1. Random generated loot. I for the life of me can not stand raiding. I prefer open worlds to instances. Also the little loot that is dropped form bosses bugs me. If I am going to spend hours inside of a dungeon I want to be rewarded.

2. More balanced pvp. This will likely never happen as the game was designed around pve.

3. It is way to easy to level in WoW. I prefer the "journey" when I play a game. I am not all about what you would call end-game. There is no immersion into the world.

4. I want the gear to not all look the same. This is lazy designing.

5. This last 1 is not really a feature. I want Blizzard to stop caitering to the cry babies on their forums, and actually build the game they intended to from the start.

I may seem to be 1 the haters people so often refer to, but I did enjoy WoW pre-BC. After that it has steadily gone down hill.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by madeux

Developers won't do another thing until there is a market, and while WoW has a stranglehold on the market, that's not going to happen.  That's why the small indi devs are the only ones taking risks, because they're happy with a few hundred thousand subscribers.  It won't be one game that takes WoW off the top, it will be a series of games that cater to the wants of smaller groups, each of them siphoning users away. 

 

"You will all be assimilated, resistance is futile."

Oh wait that's from another game. ::))))

Good God, tell me what do you search in MMORPG's s you possibly can't find in WOW? This isn't the kind of live saver 1.000.000 dollar question....

Another riverline, "meaningful PvP" (as if 200.000 dollar awards are not motivating enough), another forest?

Let''s face it. That's it: if you want something completely different step out of the market of level based gear wise Fantasy mmorpg's.

The two wings on Aion's shoulders won't help you out. You can see that with your eyes closed. I hope.

----> the problem is: time is running out, because even the principles of gear and experience levels are changing now.

And I have the impression Kaplan is already right on top of the next evolution in mmo's.

So better hurry up guys.

 

 

Ok, you're right, WoW is perfect, we do not, have not, and will not, ever need anything else.  Long live the status quo!

In response to the title:

So we can stop having idiotic, WoW-obsessed threads like this one.

Originally posted by andrelle

The true PvP reward system in Wow is based on a rated ladder system in which very rare titles are distributed.
 

Having a deadly gladiaotor title means you topped the competition out of a possible 200.000 plyers (tx to the battlegroup system of linked server competition).

Out of the game there is also the official tournament system which awards player teams with up to 200.000 dollar reward system.

How is that for a reward system. :))

---

items and gear thet level with you exist since WotLK . Better keep up with the MANY game changes lately.

---

Story line CHANGE the complete world around you in its end game. Multiple time actually when you conquer bases on the Lich King. Players standing next to each other can see each other but still see different bases according to their adventure experience.

So these "fundamental" changes are already IN the game. As on the new >PTR, there is the gameplay with experience turned off, the experience gains trough pure PvP, the set changer directly to portable banks, ... (a few million other changes).

Better be on top when posting about WOW these days. The changes come faster than I can type. :))))

And what now? :)

 

 

 

The "rare titles" are meaningless.  Its a title you can do nothing with, as are the achievements.  There is no sense of loss for your character if you are defeated in open world pvp, as in UO.   You may achieve Deadly Gladiator and flaunt it all you want, but if someone defeats you after you've gained your title, what does it mean? Where's the trophy?

How does the storyline change the game world? In what way? Faction wins? That's temporary.  Read what I wrote. My example sites instances that evolve. Since its an instance, its not an overall change to the game world, so newbs won't have their gameplay affected. However, an instance will no longer be obsolete.  Molten Core would once again have meaning, as the items you gain from its completion would be valuable post level 60. See my point?

What items and gear level with you? Are you talking about gemming your gear? I'm talking about epics made obsolete by BC and beyond. If the epics you worked your butt off to gain could be carried into each expansion, instead of the first BC green that drops turning your epic to yard sale garbage, this would be true immersion. That doesn't exist in the game, does it.

So, where's the immersion? I'm basically starting my character over with every expansion, gear-wise.  There's no continuity, and d where there's no continuity there is no truly immersive experience.  This, imo, is what the game lacks.

 

Actually and seriously, you are wrong on several points.
 

The title is awarded and brings a lot of ingame respect and recognition. It is the beginning of a change. Achievements have replaced epic gear these days (for the good and the bad).

No the world changes according to what you do in the game. Apparently you don't know that. In Icecrown base after base is reconquered on the Lich King and the phasing is not using instances to represent it btw.

I have two avatars standing next to each other and each see a different landscape, with NO loading screens and not using instances.

It will be used in a big way in the next expansion btw, where high level characters will use these phasing techniques to go back to old Azeroth.

There are heirlom gears. Gears that are bind on account and level up with your characters should you choose to use them.

Like I said the new boosts in WOW these days are the achievements/titles and pets. They give status and replaced the show off epic gear.

It sure is a sign new mmorpg's evolve in bringing other advancing symbols than pure gear and stats changers. even experience can now be turned off in WOW: giving goals to people other than just going to max level and go for titles and awards while not even reaching highest levels.

That's the beauty in WOW: you can see the changes the industry leader adapts and will certainly use in its next MMORPG. Something a small third party developper simply doesn't have the means to.

Blizzard assimilates and uses the newer techniques to the fullest. That's what's exciting.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

What is this fixation with Word of Warcraft? why must it be killed beaten and mangled? And why in the world are so many companies focused on making thier own version ( to little to no success) of it?

It has amazing figures but I still Play Pen and paper RPG with 8 of my friends, and we have alot of fun, why must numbers dictate if a game is good or not? 5000-300000 people playing a game is still alot of people isent it? Also its not World of warcrafts foult that other companies lack the imagination to creat something uniq by themselfs.

1. Other Devs should stop looking at WoW as a frame of Refrence when they make games
2. People should just lay of the WoW hate, if the game was so bad it would not get 10m + subs now would it?
3. stop whining on other games that do try to be diffrent, but might not have the budget, if you belive in the Idee and keep on subscribing they might actually get better. 

Games that you might want to suport instead of bashing on WOW:

• Pirates of the Burning Sea ( fun game I think)
• Age of Conan ( also a decent game when the bugs have been hammerd out)
• Lotro ( this game is going okey but it could do mush better)
• EvE ( just keeps getting biger and biger nothing will stop this game hehe)
• Champions online ( with a positive comunity this game can go a long way)
• Star trek online ( Might be the next big space MMO who knows, but it wont be perfect at the start so give it your suport)

All games listed above are good enough to play and some of them are truly brilliant. I say give them a chans for the first time or rejoin them and give them suport because then and only then Can they grow and become even better.

On the other hand games the realy deserve to tank are:

• Warhammer online (WAR) a wow clone, lets hope this one dies, it is a realy boring game, with bad game design. also I hate EA
• Star wars the Old Rebublic ( I hate EA did I mention that, plus I like the old Star Wars movies, the new shine stuff Is just Blehhe....)
• Jumpage Evolution ( tries to be an Easy EVE or something, never liked cloners...)
• Aion ( Korean, bot, exploit grindfest, lets hope this one stayes where it belongs in Korea and Asia.....)

  WoW was a great game and I know that every MMO fan has atleast tried WoW.  I got tired of the games repetiveness.  I like it, but I though it was boring..

  Umm game devs look at WoW when they are making games to see what they can pull from it into their games.  Because if I was making an MMO and WoW had 8+mil ppl playing it and I wanted some of those players to come play my game I would take a few aspect of it as well.  Now in 5+ years that wont be the case by then WoW will be over and done with.

  And it is really bothering me how people drop the term 'WoW clone' as much as they do.  I dont know if any of you played the MMO's pre-WoW, even the year WoW came out, all of those games where built like WoW minus a few things.  WoW just got all the spotlight for being built better...  Game devs arn't out to kill WoW, they are out to make money....  One reason Blizzard has done so well over the years is because they stick to what they know.  Warcraft:Humans Vs. Orcs, was the begining of the Warcraft saga in video games, and now the bases of that game is part of the WoW universe.

  Companies like SoE are out there to make money.  And they are making alot of money.  There are still alot of players on EQ and SWG, Vanguard, and the other games under SoE.  But they are just making games to make money, which is why they dont really care if they go in and change the combat system of the already perfect SWG combat system (2004).

  Blizzard has (well not now) alot to lose if they put out a bad patch and 1/2 of the WoW players stop playing.  The money from WoW goes into continuing the Starcraft/Diablo/Warcraft series.  And this is why Blizzard is doing so well.  WoW is a well built game, aimed for kids in my op, but they make enough money to continue making the classics like Starcraft and Diablo.  Instead of going out and making 4 MMO's to compete with themself's (SoE) they made one really good one.

  I don't play WoW anymore but all the haters out there should just shutup and let time takes it course, and stop wishing WoW would die so other games can get the spotlight.  Give it some time all the kids playing it will grow up and move on like we all have.

It is so dedain to speak of Wow as a kid's game.

More adults above 25 are playing the game as kids do.

Several social studies already confirmed this. It is known young teenagers are a minority.

These kids play FPS on their consoles.

----- > Furthermore I am perplexed by the lack of even basic  knowledge of new Wow mechanics in 2009.

This game changes more than any other MMO on the market. I think it is normal, but apparently even people who have left only 2 years ago are sometimes talking of a complete different game.

I have to explain in here that drops in Raids are no longer the only way of getting epic gear. Hell you can even have PvP gear tx to the badges being dropped in Raids. You CHOOSE the gear you want with Raid and Heroc badges. Divided by sub classes.

Of course everyone who plays the game knows this but these guys aren't posting. These guys raise their eyebrows I have to explain things like badge drops, account gear, phasing techniques, destructable buildings (in real time), mounted combat, dual specs changes in 3 seconds.

Please before commenting on a game you once played a long long time ago: first try to see the picture of the present day options. Yes the new patch allows full leveling through PvP only. Yes you can shut down experience gains completely, yes you no longer "down a boss", you need to do it on several hard modes to even have acces to still better gear or even have access to newer bosses who only spawn after achieving "achievements".

First inform yourselves before showing the obvious "non knowledge".

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Actually and seriously, you are wrong on several points.
 

The title is awarded and brings a lot of ingame respect and recognition. It is the beginning of a change. Achievements have replaced epic gear these days (for the good and the bad).

No the world changes according to what you do in the game. Apparently you don't know that. In Icecrown base after base is reconquered on the Lich King and the phasing is not using instances to represent it btw.

I have two avatars standing next to each other and each see a different landscape, with NO loading screens and not using instances.

It will be used in a big way in the next expansion btw, where high level characters will use these phasing techniques to go back to old Azeroth.

There are heirlom gears. Gears that are bind on account and level up with your characters should you choose to use them.

Like I said the new boosts in WOW these days are the achievements/titles and pets. They give status and replaced the show off epic gear.

It sure is a sign new mmorpg's evolve in bringing other advancing symbols than pure gear and stats changers. even experience can now be turned off in WOW: giving goals to people other than just going to max level and go for titles and awards while not even reaching highest levels.

That's the beauty in WOW: you can see the changes the industry leader adapts and will certainly use in its next MMORPG. Something a small third party developper simply doesn't have the means to.

Blizzard assimilates and uses the newer techniques to the fullest. That's what's exciting.

1)  Titles have meaning to you and only you.  There's no respect gained for it. No one cares what your title is, dude.  That's only in your mind.  And how have achievements replace epic gear?  The game is gear-based, not achievement based. There is no physical benefit to your character.  Again, they give you a feeling of completion, perhaps. But they do not change your character in any way shape or form.  If titles are reward enough for you for pvp, then I'm glad you feel good about yourself. But you've achieved nothing towards character advancement. That's my point.

2) I'll give you Ice Crown. I didn't know that.  That's good.  However, it still doesn't solve the problem of obsoleting the rest of the game world with every expansion. There should still be far more evolution in the older instances. 

3) Heirloom gears, fine.  Gemming gear, great. But you've still lost so much going from expansion to expansion with respect to any epics you've achieved, either at 60 or 70. Its worthless junk, and Blizzard could have done a far better job allowing certain gear to advance.  You've run an instance 30 times to get a drop, and it gets obsolete with a BC green, and you're telling me that doesn't bother you? You see continuity there?

That still leaves a true hero class for those of us that have played since launch, and housing.  These things would add so much to replayability

Originally posted by andrelle

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Actually and seriously, you are wrong on several points.
 

The title is awarded and brings a lot of ingame respect and recognition. It is the beginning of a change. Achievements have replaced epic gear these days (for the good and the bad).

No the world changes according to what you do in the game. Apparently you don't know that. In Icecrown base after base is reconquered on the Lich King and the phasing is not using instances to represent it btw.

I have two avatars standing next to each other and each see a different landscape, with NO loading screens and not using instances.

It will be used in a big way in the next expansion btw, where high level characters will use these phasing techniques to go back to old Azeroth.

There are heirlom gears. Gears that are bind on account and level up with your characters should you choose to use them.

Like I said the new boosts in WOW these days are the achievements/titles and pets. They give status and replaced the show off epic gear.

It sure is a sign new mmorpg's evolve in bringing other advancing symbols than pure gear and stats changers. even experience can now be turned off in WOW: giving goals to people other than just going to max level and go for titles and awards while not even reaching highest levels.

That's the beauty in WOW: you can see the changes the industry leader adapts and will certainly use in its next MMORPG. Something a small third party developper simply doesn't have the means to.

Blizzard assimilates and uses the newer techniques to the fullest. That's what's exciting.

 

1)  Titles have meaning to you and only you.  There's no respect gained for it. No one cares what your title is, dude.  That's only in your mind.  And how have achievements replace epic gear?  The game is gear-based, not achievement based. There is no physical benefit to your character.  Again, they give you a feeling of completion, perhaps. But they do not change your character in any way shape or form.  If titles are reward enough for you for pvp, then I'm glad you feel good about yourself. But you've achieved nothing towards character advancement. That's my point.

2) I'll give you Ice Crown. I didn't know that.  That's good.  However, it still doesn't solve the problem of obsoleting the rest of the game world with every expansion. There should still be far more evolution in the older instances. 

3) Heirloom gears, fine.  Gemming gear, great. But you've still lost so much going from expansion to expansion with respect to any epics you've achieved, either at 60 or 70. Its worthless junk, and Blizzard could have done a far better job allowing certain gear to advance.  You've run an instance 30 times to get a drop, and it gets obsolete with a BC green, and you're telling me that doesn't bother you? You see continuity there?

That still leaves a true hero class for those of us that have played since launch, and housing.  These things would add so much to replayability

Hmm, the rankings of achievements is not meaningless and are even needed sometimes in game. Again a correction:

Your guild can't even down the final Raid boss of Ulduar ... if you don't down all other bosses on the hard mode "achievement". No achievement : no possiblitiy to even see the end boss.

Other examples include faster mounts (after achievements) and even a legendary weapon.

Not only Icecrown is phased and ... I said it before: old content will be phased as well (see Wowinsider articles).

As for the gear: in RL you also run around in the same pants of 4 years ago? :))))

See my plan I posted in the Wow forums of how I play the game till Feb 2010. Leveling and gear is only a means to an end these days (not even planning to level 80 until Nov and .. I am level 75 now.with my 4th alt.  Part of the plan and goals and ... kinda freedom we have now.

I care for the titles, it is my game. And my friends care for having arena titles. So it shows it motivates players sometimes far more than gear which indeed is disposable.

One day my son yelled in the room : Come and see a deadly gladiator. Jumped up to contact him. It wasn't even on my server. My son greeted him and spoke a little. On my servers there isn't even a deadly gladiator...(tx to the server clusters).

It shows how rare and important some titles are indeed.

Originally posted by JoeTan

Some people have low standards, some dont.

Or said in a different way: some people feel their own standards are superior to others'.

Originally posted by Trenchgun

10 million subscriptions, while the nearest competition might have only 700k - That's all you need to know. 

With number disparities like this, it should not be a difficult to see why there is a fixation on what WoW does, how it does it, and what it will take to do something that can equal or best it.

Meth has millions of users, so it must not be bad for you.

 No reply from the OP. Telling.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

What is this fixation with Word of Warcraft?

11 million subscribers = $$$

why must it be killed beaten and mangled?

A lot of people, on this forum especially, hold a grudge against WoW.  The whole idea of beating the current juggernaut is exciting for these people because it would mean justification for their grudge.

And why in the world are so many companies focused on making thier own version ( to little to no success) of it?

It was not long ago that World of Warcraft looked at the MMORPG market, found out what worked, and did their fair share of "copying".  Although, I hesitate to call what they did copying due to how innovation their spin was.

It has amazing figures but I still Play Pen and paper RPG with 8 of my friends, and we have alot of fun, why must numbers dictate if a game is good or not?

In the pen and paper world, the amount of concurrent players can be as low as five or six for a single game.  That's because the product that you buy is a hardcover book(s) with a one time cost.  They do not have to patch more content into books, or host the books on servers.

Unlike pen and paper, MMORPGs have a constant upkeep cost.  This means that the game must generate constant revenue in order to keep themselves afloat.

So, does the number of players dictate a "good" game.  Maybe not, but a successful and lasting game

5000-300000 people playing a game is still alot of people isent it?

By today's standards?  I don't think so.  The sheer lack of funding that small amount of paying customers brings in will not sustain a growing and updating game.  You need millions of players paying a monthly fee to even come close to WoWs numbers, and nearly a million just to stay in the business.

It costs a lot to keep all those employees working.

Also its not World of warcrafts foult that other companies lack the imagination to creat something uniq by themselfs.

I would not go as far as you did here.  I think many games have tried to venture into the realm of unique and innovative.  Although, sadly, I think the lack of financial backing for the genre is the real reason why most of the games you see lack real innovation or uniqueness.

1. Other Devs should stop looking at WoW as a frame of Refrence when they make games

I disagree.  I think World of Warcraft got a lot of things right.  Smart companies look at the success of others and use that knowledge to try and emulate that success.  Sure, some go too far and make clones that never live up to the original.  Just remember, World of Warcraft emulated a lot of game features that were currently in the genre already, but polished them beyond what other companies had managed.

1. People should just lay of the WoW hate, if the game was so bad it would not get 10m + subs now would it?

You'll get a lot of flames for this comment.  A lot of people on this forum, like I said, hold a grudge against WoW.  They will tell you that $$ =/= polish or quality.  I don't agree with those people, though.  I think that success in the market is more important than the pseudo quality and uncreatable content that most forum goers seek.

1. stop whining on other games that do try to be diffrent, but might not have the budget, if you belive in the Idee and keep on subscribing they might actually get better. 

The problem here is the sheer amount of resources you would need to sink into a game to get their "dreams" to be realized.  I don't think subscriber dollars alone would do it.  A company would have to give their developers millions of dollars to make a AAA game in this market.  Sadly, many game companies don't think MMOGs are worth the expense, especially when they can be contained in a browser and given away for free.

Games that you might want to suport instead of bashing on WOW:

• Pirates of the Burning Sea ( fun game I think)

Never played it.

• Age of Conan ( also a decent game when the bugs have been hammerd out)

A bad beginning usually sinks an MMORPG even when they finally finish polishing the game.  Remember Anarchy Online?  It was horribly bug ridden when it launched.  Now it is vastly improved, but the subscriptions never came back.

• Lotro ( this game is going okey but it could do mush better)

I think this is the general claim from players.  The game supposedly lacks endgame content and struggles to maintain fun over time.  I personally could not stand the high system requirements that forced a lot of players to turn everything down to make the game playable.  I also felt the game's combat system was lacking and the armor and character models were uninspired and the world was bland even on high settings.

• EvE ( just keeps getting biger and biger nothing will stop this game hehe)

Is and always will be a niche game.  Although there is a big fan base on this site.

• Champions online ( with a positive comunity this game can go a long way)

This game isn't out yet so I reserve judgment.  The community can mean a lot in a smaller game, though.

• Star trek online ( Might be the next big space MMO who knows, but it wont be perfect at the start so give it your suport)

I highly doubt it.

All games listed above are good enough to play and some of them are truly brilliant. I say give them a chans for the first time or rejoin them and give them suport because then and only then Can they grow and become even better.

On the other hand games the realy deserve to tank are:

• Warhammer online (WAR) a wow clone, lets hope this one dies, it is a realy boring game, with bad game design. also I hate EAStar wars the Old Rebublic ( I hate EA did I mention that, plus I like the old Star Wars movies, the new shine stuff Is just Blehhe....)

• Jumpage Evolution ( tries to be an Easy EVE or something, never liked cloners...)
• Aion ( Korean, bot, exploit grindfest, lets hope this one stayes where it belongs in Korea and Asia.....)

I find it odd that you ended this post with such negative critiques.  Especially since you put some games above that are not even out and seemed to give them positive reviews.  If you hate EA I find it really interesting that you seem to be a fan of Fun Com.

Originally posted by andrelle

 

1)  Titles have meaning to you and only you.  There's no respect gained for it. No one cares what your title is, dude.  That's only in your mind.  And how have achievements replace epic gear?  The game is gear-based, not achievement based. There is no physical benefit to your character.  Again, they give you a feeling of completion, perhaps. But they do not change your character in any way shape or form.  If titles are reward enough for you for pvp, then I'm glad you feel good about yourself. But you've achieved nothing towards character advancement. That's my point.

2) I'll give you Ice Crown. I didn't know that.  That's good.  However, it still doesn't solve the problem of obsoleting the rest of the game world with every expansion. There should still be far more evolution in the older instances. 

3) Heirloom gears, fine.  Gemming gear, great. But you've still lost so much going from expansion to expansion with respect to any epics you've achieved, either at 60 or 70. Its worthless junk, and Blizzard could have done a far better job allowing certain gear to advance.  You've run an instance 30 times to get a drop, and it gets obsolete with a BC green, and you're telling me that doesn't bother you? You see continuity there?

That still leaves a true hero class for those of us that have played since launch, and housing.  These things would add so much to replayability

1) Thats why i get like 3 billion whispers a day talking about me being ranked #1 in our battlegroup,

2) Its not as good as he makes it sound.

3)If you get attached to gear thats pretty sad, the only reason you should be doing raids for gear is to get strong enough for the next raid. You seem like you are a roleplayer based on your obsession with hero class and changing the virtual world or some shit like that. So the only reason you should be doing raids is to either A) Gear up for PVP B) Learn more about the story. ( im an A by the way)

Houses have and always will be useless in an mmorpg it brings nothing to the table, yay i get to decorate my virtual house. Get a life.

A true hero class?  you are already a Hero. Or do you want to be called Uber Druid #10872 or Super Warrior# 917 or maybe

Hero Rogue #972

You want replayabilty? Why? so you can keep playing the same game over and over again? if you want that then thats sad. Seeing as how WoW constantly adds new content. Dumbest complaint ive ever heard, Oh no they keep adding new content so i cant keep replaying the old content boo hoo.

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Originally posted by Kyleran
WOW must never be killed.
Seriously, think of the type of people you know who still play WOW, would you really want them playing in your games?
Didn't think so.

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All the WoW haters like to say that WoW has the worst community and is full of kiddies but turn a blind eye to how awful the community is in their favorite MMO.

I find this especially funny coming from an outspoken advocate of Eve(the real worst MMO community ever).

Originally posted by andrelle 

1)  Titles have meaning to you and only you.  There's no respect gained for it. No one cares what your title is, dude.  That's only in your mind.  And how have achievements replace epic gear?  The game is gear-based, not achievement based. There is no physical benefit to your character.  Again, they give you a feeling of completion, perhaps. But they do not change your character in any way shape or form.  If titles are reward enough for you for pvp, then I'm glad you feel good about yourself. But you've achieved nothing towards character advancement. That's my point.

2) I'll give you Ice Crown. I didn't know that.  That's good.  However, it still doesn't solve the problem of obsoleting the rest of the game world with every expansion. There should still be far more evolution in the older instances. 

3) Heirloom gears, fine.  Gemming gear, great. But you've still lost so much going from expansion to expansion with respect to any epics you've achieved, either at 60 or 70. Its worthless junk, and Blizzard could have done a far better job allowing certain gear to advance.  You've run an instance 30 times to get a drop, and it gets obsolete with a BC green, and you're telling me that doesn't bother you? You see continuity there?

That still leaves a true hero class for those of us that have played since launch, and housing.  These things would add so much to replayability

1.  Titles have as much meaning as gear does.  You do not give respect to the character but to the player.  As such it is irrelevant if the character has epic gear or an epic title, the player still has to earn my respect.  You get respect for what you do and not what you get.  A title or gear simply informs people of what content you have finished. 

2. Old content becomes obsolete because it is old content that people have done many times already.  I would not run old world content again unless it is completely revamped which would make it new content.

3.  That was a design flaw with the original game.  It put too much emphasis on running content over and over until it lost all meaning beside the gear.  It was actually quite liberating for me to be freed from that burden and to enjoy playing for the content and not the gear. 

Originally posted by andrelle

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by Nicksd

WoW is just easy to get into, nothing more. The game itself is very lacking.

 

What exactly is it lacking?  List your top 5 features it should have, but doesn't.

 

Here's mine:

Housing

True PVP reward system (player looting)

items/gear that levels with you

Hero class (DK doesn't count - the idea is to champion your current toon)

Storyline that affects/changes the game world (example: current instances that evolve with each expansion)

These, to me, are very fundamental things that would provide the player with a better feeling of immersion in the game world. LOTRO does some of these. Why can't WoW?

1. Housing - I agree with this and I expect WOW to have it within the next year or two. The problem with housing is how detailed should it be and I think Blizzard wants a system far more than....buy a deed, have a house. I think it would be great to have to get the mats to build your house.

2. True PVP/Player Looting - Sorry, player looting will never happen. Is it any wonder that every MMO with player looting ends up failing miserably in recent years? This not something a large portion of the MMO community wants, it is just a loud portion of the MMO community.

3. Gear that Levels - This is kinda in WOW right now. You can get Bind to Account items with Badge loot at 80 and send it to an alt. it gains levels and stats as you do and even changes (leather to mail, mail/plate) as needed when your class gets an armor upgrade.

4. Hero class - I would love for a hero class to branch from your class but I think it would be even worse to balance. If you allowed a hero class for the Shaman, you would need a hero class for each spec (elemental, enhancement and resto) so it would be like 3 new classes. Balancing would be worse than it already is. I think they will do a Hero class for each type of class. The Dk is the tank/DPS one so I would expect a healing based one (like an ArchDruid), a melee/ranged one (Bucaneer type), a Dark magic one (Witch Doctor/Necro) and then a ranged caster one (some type of mage).

5. Quests that impact the world - Some do...well, as much as can be expected. To do this you really need to using instancing or phasing or something because it has to be done for every player. Then you have people complaining about too much instancing or phasing. You also will have people complain that it will be to solo based or single player based (ala SW:TOR). I can understand why Blizzard hasn't really done this yet but I think with the use of phasing in WOTLK alludes to more later on and maybe more of the "impact on the world" type of events.

Just my thoughts/opinions.

I think the only reason people talk about "wow killers" is due to subscription numbers.

As for the rest I really hate watching people judge games that you can't even play yet.  Its like writing a review of a film or novel before you watch it or read it.  (makes no sense). 

Also if you want to criticise games already out or not out yet you should really reconsider using comments about whining lol

Appart from that the term WoW killer does not equal WoW clone in my mind.  It simply has to draw an audience as big or bigger then WoW does, but it does not have to be a clone to do this.

I am seeing a lot of stuff being designed now that appear not to be designed anything like WoW that are going to be released in the next year that appear also to be AAA titles.   I think WoW has some competition coming and so that is why people are dubbing them as WoW killers but they wont be like WoW (one can hope) .

Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

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Originally posted by Kyleran
WOW must never be killed.
Seriously, think of the type of people you know who still play WOW, would you really want them playing in your games?
Didn't think so.

---

Yeah, because all the other MMOs have such greeeeeat communities.

 

All the WoW haters like to say that WoW has the worst community and is full of kiddies but turn a blind eye to how awful the community is in their favorite MMO.

I find this especially funny coming from an outspoken advocate of Eve(the real worst MMO community ever).

 /agree

The idea that World of Warcraft has some sort of horrible booger-ridden dirty diaper loud mouth baby QQ community is pretty laughable considering the amount of communities represented on this forum.  I've had worse experiences in other MMORPGs with elitism and childishness.  Age of Conan is a great representation, along with Anarchy Online and SWG.