Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by Yamota

I dont understand why some people are so fanatically against gold buying/selling. If I want to pay someone else to grind for virtual money, rather than to do it myself, then what is the problem?

Most games I have played has no real need for buying gold as it comes, more or less naturally, when you play but some games like Lineage 2 and Eve are just horrible when it comes to the need to grind for gold.

 

Believe it or not it ruins the ecomony. You could say that it's not like the "gold" came out of thin air, but the point is the person buying the gold basically got "free" money to buy items from others without having to do any work. This drives up prices as people have more money they are willing to spend. Also the farmers getting the gold generally do not spend it towards the economy ingame.

I didn't read all the posts in this thread so this next part could have been said already. I know some people have gone as far as to say that the game company should just sell gold to players, and this will slow down or stop the farmers. No, this is the same problem as the farmers. Money is, for lack of a better term, coming out of thin air. As I said up above, they dont contribute to the economy in anyway except raising up the prices, and spreading gold around that people would not other wise have in the same time frame. Sure people could just go and get it themselves, but then they may get drops to also sell. This keeps the money flowing.

 

This view is incorrect. There is a difference between the developer selling gold to players (in this case, it really comes out of thin air) vs one player (the farmer) selling to another.

In the second case, SOMEONE is playing the game. Someone has to grind the same amount (may be he is a bit more efficient, but still) to get the gold. It is no difference than I give some gold to my kids, or a friend, except that real money is involved. ...

 

 

Guess again.  Gold sellers get a lot of their gold by hacking accounts and running bots, often on accounts purchased with stolen credit card numbers (even credit cards owned by their own former customers).  They have no concept of fairness or even common decency.  All they care about is money.  So when you buy gold, you are supporting this kind of behavior.

 

In any case, read the article again.  It has nothing to do with gold-selling in MMOs.  This is all about using virtual currency for trade of real world goods and services, including illicit ones.  This distorts the currency markets and makes it difficult for the government to control them.

 

Any proof or anything that can be seen as and indication that what you are claiming is true? Stolen credit cards, indecent? Bla bla. I have given my CC details many times to gold sellers and not once have I been scammed of either the virtual or real currency.

It's a well known fact.  This is not the only article out there discussing it.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/antigold.html

China actually did something decent for once. Gold farmers killed my favorite mmorpg, Silkroad Online. What some of you maybe don't realize is that sometimes the farmers aren't actual people. On Silkroad Online, goldbots (nickname for bots that's sole purpose was to farm gold for gold selling websites) caused serious crowdation on all the servers of the game, making it impossible for anyone to login...unless you bought a premium from the item mall of that game. See where that goes? Gold farmers crowd the game, and the people that wanted to play free (or even use the item mall except they didn't buy the premium) are screwed, no choice but to buy a premium if you want to play whenever you want.

Gold selling websites are evil. I'm not saying that every gold selling website hacks accounts for credit card information or other personal information, but there are websites out there like that. Gold selling also wrecks the game's economy. Because the majority of players on Silkroad Online bought gold, inflation occured. All the equipment's prices went up high, powerful equipment requried rediculous amounts of gold that no one buying gold couldn't pay for, and the economy went moot.

Good job China, if this kicks off successfully, we might start seeing alot less gold selling websites (and goldbots). They'll never disappear completely, but perhaps we'll start seeing alot less.

I saw it on G4 t.v.'s "Attack of the Show".

Anything Olivia Munn says I will swallow without hesitation.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by Yamota

I dont understand why some people are so fanatically against gold buying/selling. If I want to pay someone else to grind for virtual money, rather than to do it myself, then what is the problem?

Most games I have played has no real need for buying gold as it comes, more or less naturally, when you play but some games like Lineage 2 and Eve are just horrible when it comes to the need to grind for gold.

 

Look, if you wanna drink or smoke weed or even do cocaine in your own home, not only do I not have a problem with that, I think it should be legal.  It only affects you.

If you buy gold in a game that I am playing, you affect the economy.   Yes, it does.    So, do whatever you enjoy as long as it doesn't negatively impact me.

Wanna smoke crack at home?   Go ahead.   Wanna do it and get out and drive?  GTFO.   If you are negatively impacting me, so you can have a shortcut, then you should be stopped/banned, etc.

ok first of all I just want to say that your comparison is insane. Comparing a drug that not only can kill you but also severly change your behaviour pattern so you are more prone to harm others or other illegal activities to selling gold in a virtual game is ludicrous. It is not in the same league, it is not even in the same sport. Selling virtual gold is not even illegal, atleast not in my country.

I won't defend the SwampRob's comparison, because it is a major stretch/straw man.  However, I want to make a point... or, more accurately, ask a question: When did people forget that "LEGAL" does not automatically mean "MORAL/ETHICAL"?

I'm just sick of people justifying reprehensible behavior solely on the grounds that it is not illegal.  I can think of a lot of horrible things that are perfectly legal but that doesn't make them any more acceptable, nor would I ignore that they are wrong by pointing out that it's all cool because "doing X is not even illegal, atleast not in my country."  For centuries, Slavery was perfectly legal here in the States.  I know gold-selling is not in the same league as slavery, but your flawed reasoning would probably excuse slavery if you had lived back in that time (because, you know, back then enslaving people "was not even illegal" after all).

Also, do you really understand the conditions that a huge number of gold farmers are "working" in?  It is not your typical cozy internet cafe.  Though many of the farmers enjoy their jobs (especially so given their choices in alternative employment... or lack thereof), the term "gaming sweatshop" is used for a reason.  It is a situation with people in dire straits, working for peanuts compared to their bosses.  In many cases, the wages the actual farmers make = covers room and board.

It is a whole system of exploitation, fueled by the money and laziness of (largely) unaware gamers.  After all, when you are starving, you will agree to any job, put up with anything.  The weird twist is that many farmers know they are being exploited, but feel proud of their accomplishments in game, so they ignore the injustice of their situation and some even farm for "free" (i.e., they get to game and have room and board covered).

If you are a gold farmer you will work 12 hours a day with short breaks.  You will normally eat, sleep, and live in the "factory" where you work.  I guess if you're starving, it's better than nothing and I'm sure a lot of gold farmers are grateful for the income.  However, southern slave owners used to say the same type of thing about how lucky their slaves were to have masters who provided them with work, a place to live, and the "Christian" faith.  Modern day "gaming sweatshops" (and sweatshops in general) = the 21st century's plantations.

Buying gold or not buying it goes WAY deeper than if it effects the game you love.  You are hurting your fellow man by supporting a system that thrives on the hardship and easy exploitation of the downtrodden and oppressed.  Simply put: it is organized crime/slavery and whatever pleasure you derive from your quick, artificial progress in game is never not worth it.  Try as you might, you cannot justify the exploitation of other human beings.

I won't deny that there are probably "reputable" outfits that farm/sell gold and it wouldn't surprise me if some Chinese/etc. gold farmers enjoy their job and conciously choose to do it.  However, in MANY, MANY cases those who farm the gold are little more than slaves for those who sell it... and ultimately, the money behind it all... the real slave owners, the "purchasers" as it were = ppl who buy gold and keep the system going. 

YOU ARE DEFENDING SWEATSHOP SLAVERY BY POINTING OUT THAT, HEY... AT LEAST IN YOUR COUNTRY, IT'S NOT ILLEGAL.  It's callous, arrogant, and it shows a lot about your lack of humanity.  If you don't understand what the conditions are like in many gold-farming sweatshops, please EDUCATE YOURSELF.  It's sad to see somebody who is either totally oblivious to the world around them, or coldly indifferent to it.

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by Yamota

I dont understand why some people are so fanatically against gold buying/selling. If I want to pay someone else to grind for virtual money, rather than to do it myself, then what is the problem?

Most games I have played has no real need for buying gold as it comes, more or less naturally, when you play but some games like Lineage 2 and Eve are just horrible when it comes to the need to grind for gold.

 

Look, if you wanna drink or smoke weed or even do cocaine in your own home, not only do I not have a problem with that, I think it should be legal.  It only affects you.

If you buy gold in a game that I am playing, you affect the economy.   Yes, it does.    So, do whatever you enjoy as long as it doesn't negatively impact me.

Wanna smoke crack at home?   Go ahead.   Wanna do it and get out and drive?  GTFO.   If you are negatively impacting me, so you can have a shortcut, then you should be stopped/banned, etc.

ok first of all I just want to say that your comparison is insane. Comparing a drug that not only can kill you but also severly change your behaviour pattern so you are more prone to harm others or other illegal activities to selling gold in a virtual game is ludicrous. It is not in the same league, it is not even in the same sport. Selling virtual gold is not even illegal, atleast not in my country.

 

I won't defend the SwampRob's comparison, because it is a major stretch/straw man.  However, I want to make a point... or, more accurately, ask a question: When did people forget that "LEGAL" does not automatically mean "MORAL/ETHICAL"?

 

I'm just sick of people justifying reprehensible behavior solely on the grounds that it is not illegal.  I can think of a lot of horrible things that are perfectly legal but that doesn't make them any more acceptable, nor would I ignore that they are wrong by pointing out that it's all cool because "doing X is not even illegal, atleast not in my country."  For centuries, Slavery was perfectly legal here in the States.  I know gold-selling is not in the same league as slavery, but your flawed reasoning would probably excuse slavery if you had lived back in that time (because, you know, back then enslaving people "was not even illegal" after all).

 

Also, do you really understand the conditions that a huge number of gold farmers are "working" in?  It is not your typical cozy internet cafe.  Though many of the farmers enjoy their jobs (especially so given their choices in alternative employment... or lack thereof), the term "gaming sweatshop" is used for a reason.  It is a situation with people in dire straits, working for peanuts compared to their bosses.  In many cases, the wages the actual farmers make = covers room and board.

 

It is a whole system of exploitation, fueled by the money and laziness of (largely) unaware gamers.  After all, when you are starving, you will agree to any job, put up with anything.  The weird twist is that many farmers know they are being exploited, but feel proud of their accomplishments in game, so they ignore the injustice of their situation and some even farm for "free" (i.e., they get to game and have room and board covered).

 

If you are a gold farmer you will work 12 hours a day with short breaks.  You will normally eat, sleep, and live in the "factory" where you work.  I guess if you're starving, it's better than nothing and I'm sure a lot of gold farmers are grateful for the income.  However, southern slave owners used to say the same type of thing about how lucky their slaves were to have masters who provided them with work, a place to live, and the "Christian" faith.  Modern day "gaming sweatshops" (and sweatshops in general) = the 21st century's plantations.

 

Buying gold or not buying it goes WAY deeper than if it effects the game you love.  You are hurting people by supporting a system that thrives on the hardship and easy exploitation of the downtrodden and oppressed.  Simply put: it is organized crime/slavery.

 

I won't deny that there are probably "reputable" outfits that farm/sell gold and it wouldn't surprise me if some Chinese/etc. gold farmers enjoy their job and conciously choose to do it.  However, in MANY, MANY cases those who farm the gold are little more than slaves for those who sell it... and ultimately, the money behind it all... the real slave owners, the "purchasers" as it were = ppl who buy gold and keep the system going. 

 

YOU ARE DEFENDING SWEATSHOP SLAVERY BY POINTING OUT THAT, HEY... AT LEAST IN YOUR COUNTRY, IT'S NOT ILLEGAL.  It's callous, arrogant, and it shows a lot about your lack of humanity.  If you don't understand what the conditions are like in many gold-farming sweatshops, please EDUCATE YOURSELF.  It's sad to see somebody who is either totally oblivious to the world around them, or coldly indifferent to it.

Everything you said about the goldfarming shops is true of pretty much every industry that employs unskilled labor in China, including the ones that make the computer you typed that message on.  If your criteria for whether you use a product is how benevolent the labor practices employed in its creation were, you'd better go back to using all 19th century products made by local craftsmen.

Originally posted by rikilii

Everything you said about the goldfarming shops is true of pretty much every industry that employs unskilled labor in China, including the ones that make the computer you typed that message on.  If your criteria for whether you use a product is how benevolent the labor practices employed in its creation were, you'd better go back to using all 19th century products made by local craftsmen.

You make a great point (almost just wrote "touche!" and left it at that), but I want to stick to the original point I was trying to make before I muddled everything up (as always):  Just because something is "legal," does not make it right.  How we reconcile our decisions vs. our integrity when it comes to the products and services that we consume is a matter of personal choice.  

That's not to ignore what you are saying, but really... my main points is that I don't agree with people justifying their behavior because it's not illegal.  If I buy a computer and pretty much all of it is manafactured in a sweatshop (at one point or another), well... I have to live with that.  However, you can bet that I won't go posting around on the internet that I should be able to purchase computers from "Sweatshop.com" with impunity because it's "legal" and I'm a totally alright guy when doing so.

Do you see what I mean?  I realize I was rambling and ranting above and that it totally distracts from what I wanted to say. Oh well, it's perfectly legal to write crazy posts, so don't you dare question my choice to do so! ;^_^

P.S.  Anybody know any local Amish craftsmen who make PC's?  Tell 'em "the English" is looking to buy a non-sweatshop rig when FFXIV comes out. ;-)

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

Originally posted by rikilii

Everything you said about the goldfarming shops is true of pretty much every industry that employs unskilled labor in China, including the ones that make the computer you typed that message on.  If your criteria for whether you use a product is how benevolent the labor practices employed in its creation were, you'd better go back to using all 19th century products made by local craftsmen.

 

You make a great point, but I want to stick to the original point I was trying to make.  Just because something is "legal," does not make it right.  How we reconcile our decisions vs. our integrity when it comes to the products and services that we consume is a matter of personal choice.  

That's not to ignore what you are saying, but really... my main points is that I don't agree with people justifying their behavior because it's not illegal.  If I buy a computer and pretty much all of it is manafactured in a sweatshop (at one point or another), well... I have to live with that.  However, you can bet that I won't go posting around on the internet that I should be able to purchase computers from "Sweatshop.com" because it's "legal."

Do you see what I mean?  I realize I was rambling and ranting above and that it totally distracts from what I wanted to say. Oh well, it's perfectly legal to write crazy posts, so don't you dare question my choice to do so! ;^_^

I'm not disagreeing with you, just making a small point.  However, just because a practice is common doesn't mean we need to condone it.

In the computer example, well, we really have little choice.  We do have a choice about buying gold.  And in any case, it's wrong for other reasons as well, including the tactics that many gold sellers use (spamming in game, hacking accounts, botting), and the simple fact that it is against the rules of most games, and therefore it negatively impacts the gameplay experience of other players.

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by MustaphaMond

Originally posted by rikilii

*snip*

I'm not disagreeing with you, just making a small point.  However, just because a practice is common doesn't mean we need to condone it.

In the computer example, well, we really have little choice.  We do have a choice about buying gold.  And in any case, it's wrong for other reasons as well, including the tactics that many gold sellers use (spamming in game, hacking accounts, botting), and the simple fact that it is against the rules of most games, and therefore it negatively impacts the gameplay experience of other players.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too with the computer example (i.e., I can always grind gold, but don't know how to make/assemble the components of a computer).  I think you and others are very right about how gold farming/selling ruins the community of a game.  I mean, just think of it... when you have ppl who are playing 12 hours a day, as a job... that energy/vibe, that driven will to dominate in whatever they are doing taints what is meant to be entertainment. It's too bad when things that are meant to be an escape (i.e., MMORPG's) wind up all wrapped up in real world problems just like everything else... I remember how depressed I was when I first learned about sweatshops, and then how disappointed I felt when I saw that ugly aspect of humanity seeping into the game world.

The CEOs of these companys will just move to another country and contiune there, the money is just to good for them to just give it up.