If' I'm playing an RPG, stats should matter.  If they don't its not an RPG.   Besides, latency and lag basically make any heavily non-instanced combat pointless.  You can't completely trust what you're seeing.  Do you lead the target?  Depends on the connection.  Sometimes you'l hit, sometimes you won't even be close.  Its guesswork.  Using AC as an example, go watch any youtube video of people running around like ADD monkeys, rubberbanding and warping all over the place....its pathetic.

Savage2 is an RPG with dodgable spells/projectiles.  Its fun, but I wouldn't pay a monthly fee for it and in the end, connection speed and twitch skill conquers all.  If I'm investing lots of time in a game, character growth has to happen.  In a twtichy battle system, there is very little actual growth.  You're either good at twitch or you're not.  The onyl growth comes from learning all the different ways to exploit the twitch mechanics.

I prefer dodge-able spells that have varying speeds.  A lightning bolt might be really fast and hard to avoid, but a fireball could be slow and easily dodge-able.

Originally posted by Josher

If' I'm playing an RPG, stats should matter.  If they don't its not an RPG.   Besides, latency and lag basically make any heavily non-instanced combat pointless.  You can't completely trust what you're seeing.  Do you lead the target?  Depends on the connection.  Sometimes you'l hit, sometimes you won't even be close.  Its guesswork.  Using AC as an example, go watch any youtube video of people running around like ADD monkeys, rubberbanding and warping all over the place....its pathetic.

That can only be posted by someone who has never played it, the game has tricks built in that increase the skill ability. There are animation breaks and slide casts that are done purposely to make your character warp slightly, these are extremely predictable and watching which moves the other player does you do have a very solid guess at where he will end up. The guess is as accurate as if it were real life and you saw which way a guy was going but had to guess if he would jump left or right when you launched your attack.

They also have bolt spells for basic attack, arc spells which do an arc into the target, streak spells which launch several projectiles all in a row, and wall spells which launch spells in rows and columns at the same time. All of this combines into how to attck a player and how to dodge a player based on what they're using.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

It's magic, you can't dodge magic. Or high tech, it's homed in on you dude.

 

If were were talking call of duty, different story.

What do you mean you can't dodge magic?  Magic in movies is about as real as magic in games and I haven't seen a whole lot of movies where a caster throws a fireball and it is automatically locked on target no matter where the target moves; they can jump out of the way and the fireball will fly past them.  I am sure there may be instant cast spells like curses and immolate that originate at the target's location, but in terms of spells coming from the caster, they should have the opportunity to avoid them.  Just because it is magic doesn't mean the rules of physics can't apply.

I think opinions on this can be two-sided.  I am sure the caster likes that the spells will eventually hit the target no matter what (even if it is resisted), while I would think that the target would rather he or she be able to dodge it entirely.  I was actually thinking about this a few weeks ago in WoW.  I was on a mount that was faster than the spell that was cast and I literally flew around in circles while the bolt chased me until I finally just gave up and let it hit me.

Originally posted by Josher

If' I'm playing an RPG, stats should matter.  If they don't its not an RPG.   Besides, latency and lag basically make any heavily non-instanced combat pointless.  You can't completely trust what you're seeing.  Do you lead the target?  Depends on the connection.  Sometimes you'l hit, sometimes you won't even be close.  Its guesswork.  Using AC as an example, go watch any youtube video of people running around like ADD monkeys, rubberbanding and warping all over the place....its pathetic.

Savage2 is an RPG with dodgable spells/projectiles.  Its fun, but I wouldn't pay a monthly fee for it and in the end, connection speed and twitch skill conquers all.  If I'm investing lots of time in a game, character growth has to happen.  In a twtichy battle system, there is very little actual growth.  You're either good at twitch or you're not.  The onyl growth comes from learning all the different ways to exploit the twitch mechanics.

I really don't understand why having stats and levels = RPG.  Can't your character grow through other means?  For example, wouldn't your character be growing by finding and learning new spells?  Of course this might not feel like growth in a game like WoW (or most games out now) because u go to a trainer and pay money to learn.  What if you had to go through some crazy dungeons to find scrolls to learn new attacks?  Why can't gear without stats be considered a status symbol, which in itself is showing your growth? Why isn't your actual playing skill considered growth?  It's not growth through stats, but its still growth. 

I understand the lag issues. I realize technology is not ready to handle action/fighter mechanics properly, but I think this would be a step up from where we are. 

Originally posted by zaxtor99

In PvP, this factor is huge.

Even in PvE, the ability to dodge magical spells such as a fire bolt makes a big difference in the game play.

With games like World of Warcraft (and so many others now days) - the ability to dodge these magical bolts is impossible. If the enemy mob or enemy player casts it at you, you are going to get smacked with it regardless. You could run inside a building and close a door before its cast at you, but somehow, this bolt will smack you in the face regardless of your actions. Perhaps the only way to avoid it would be to have skilled up a high enough magic resistance compared to the casters magic skill to be able to resist the spell.

Just want to pont that in WOW spells don't smack you regardless, your char dodges them (automatically) if the level difference is big enough. You acutally see the spell not well aimed and passing by your side. Then you have also the magic resistance you mention, but that does not dodge, it hits you and then you might resist its effet.

Originally posted by altairzq

Originally posted by zaxtor99

In PvP, this factor is huge.

Even in PvE, the ability to dodge magical spells such as a fire bolt makes a big difference in the game play.

With games like World of Warcraft (and so many others now days) - the ability to dodge these magical bolts is impossible. If the enemy mob or enemy player casts it at you, you are going to get smacked with it regardless. You could run inside a building and close a door before its cast at you, but somehow, this bolt will smack you in the face regardless of your actions. Perhaps the only way to avoid it would be to have skilled up a high enough magic resistance compared to the casters magic skill to be able to resist the spell.

 

Just want to pont that in WOW spells don't smack you regardless, your char dodges them (automatically) if the level difference is big enough. You acutally see the spell not well aimed and passing by your side. Then you have also the magic resistance you mention, but that does not dodge, it hits you and then you might resist its effet.

I think you're missing the point of the post.  I'm pretty sure OP doesn't want stats to do the work for him. 

Originally posted by bleyzwun

Too bad I never played AC.  I would definitely prefer being able to dodge magic, arrows, bullets, etc.  I would also like to manually block/parry, and even grapple and throw enemies.  Also, it depends on the performance and overall enjoyability of the game.  I would rather play the game wtih the following fireball if it's good, than playing the other and the game sucks.  Technology isn't where it needs to be for the type of MMO I would want (at least I don't think it is). 

That was 1 of the things about AC i liked, but if I recall correctly it was not an intended feature. They just never fixed the code. With saying that, I wish more games allowed you to dodge spells and such.

Originally posted by bleyzwun

Originally posted by Prankster

This is the difference between MMOFPS and MMORPG.

MMORPG's are and should be based off the old pen and paper roll of the dice systems. This is because the goals of an MMORPG are not combat centric. They are role playing games meant to allow all players twitchy or not enjoy their chosen roles.

MMOFPS are for twitch players and there should be more of these large scale battle games to play.

The few Hybrid games that we have seen so far have not been REALLY successful because the developers have to cater to two separate customers which in effect makes twice as much Dev time and twice as much $$.

My advice is play the one that fits you but don't ask the genres to change,

 

My problem with this is, a RPG doesn't have to follow P&P games.  You can roleplay without stats very easily.  I don't understand why RPG is put in this box, when roleplaying is exactly what it means (playing a role).  I can roleplay with my girl while having sex on some freak shit if I wanted to.  We're playing, it's a game of sorts, we're having fun.  Does that mean I have to equip a condom with +5 stamina to make her orgasm?  

If I had to put what I am looking for in a box, I guess it would be a MMO Action RPG, or MMO Fighter RPG. 

      No...you don't need a magic condom to make sweet love to your significant other.. But if you expect to roleplay that you're James Bond and you want to para-sail halfway to the house then parachute into the bedroom through the skylight while shooting your Walther PBK at surrounding snipers....well if you can do that ...I'll shut up now for fear that I risk your wrath.Otherwise...in the context of a game set in a fantastical universe or if  you are playing a highly skilled professional in a real world setting...you need some sort of gauge to determine your success with certain skill-sets. Even the LARPers for World of Darkness use rock,paper,scissors sometimes. Should they be used all the time..probably at some minimal level for most major actions....you shouldn't fail a stat roll to eat lunch or walk ...but somethings should be twitch..skill and luck as well.

DDO has both mechanics.  Acid Arrow or Scorching ray is dodgeable and Magic missile is auto hit.

I am fine with having both in one game, if balanced well, but the dodging is definitely something that is an interesting mechanic, especially in a truly 3D environment.  For example climbing a ladder in DDO makes you unable to do much dodging, so you have to make strategic choice if there are some troglodytes casting acid arrow at you from a couple platform above.  And may even use magic missileto kill that trog since you can dodge and cast without needing to aim, while a ray spell that does more damage is nice at medium and short ranges.

Originally posted by Nicksd

Originally posted by bleyzwun

Too bad I never played AC.  I would definitely prefer being able to dodge magic, arrows, bullets, etc.  I would also like to manually block/parry, and even grapple and throw enemies.  Also, it depends on the performance and overall enjoyability of the game.  I would rather play the game wtih the following fireball if it's good, than playing the other and the game sucks.  Technology isn't where it needs to be for the type of MMO I would want (at least I don't think it is). 

 

That was 1 of the things about AC i liked, but if I recall correctly it was not an intended feature. They just never fixed the code. With saying that, I wish more games allowed you to dodge spells and such.

For the guy saying too bad he never played AC, well go play it, it's still running and approaching it's 10th anniversary later this year. Also has a free 14 day trial at http://trial.ac.turbine.com/

Dodging spells was always intended as was using environment, it was released with that direct intention.

What you are thinking of is the animation breaking/fast casting that came out, this was not intended but the devs saw how it made the game more exciting for a lot of players and decided to keep it in.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Dodging spells was always intended as was using environment, it was released with that direct intention.

 

What you are thinking of is the animation breaking/fast casting that came out, this was not intended but the devs saw how it made the game more exciting for a lot of players and decided to keep it in.

I guess I should have stated what I was talking about :). I was infact talking about fast casting. I am glad they never removed it as I enjoyed the long fights. I still remember what they introduced Arc spells to get over objects, good times heh.

Originally posted by BarCrow

Originally posted by bleyzwun

Originally posted by Prankster

This is the difference between MMOFPS and MMORPG.

MMORPG's are and should be based off the old pen and paper roll of the dice systems. This is because the goals of an MMORPG are not combat centric. They are role playing games meant to allow all players twitchy or not enjoy their chosen roles.

MMOFPS are for twitch players and there should be more of these large scale battle games to play.

The few Hybrid games that we have seen so far have not been REALLY successful because the developers have to cater to two separate customers which in effect makes twice as much Dev time and twice as much $$.

My advice is play the one that fits you but don't ask the genres to change,

 

My problem with this is, a RPG doesn't have to follow P&P games.  You can roleplay without stats very easily.  I don't understand why RPG is put in this box, when roleplaying is exactly what it means (playing a role).  I can roleplay with my girl while having sex on some freak shit if I wanted to.  We're playing, it's a game of sorts, we're having fun.  Does that mean I have to equip a condom with +5 stamina to make her orgasm?  

If I had to put what I am looking for in a box, I guess it would be a MMO Action RPG, or MMO Fighter RPG. 

      No...you don't need a magic condom to make sweet love to your significant other.. But if you expect to roleplay that you're James Bond and you want to para-sail halfway to the house then parachute into the bedroom through the skylight while shooting your Walther PBK at surrounding snipers....well if you can do that ...I'll shut up now for fear that I risk your wrath.Otherwise...in the context of a game set in a fantastical universe or if  you are playing a highly skilled professional in a real world setting...you need some sort of gauge to determine your success with certain skill-sets. Even the LARPers for World of Darkness use rock,paper,scissors sometimes.

My point is, if I did want to roleplay as James Bond and actually do the whole para-sail, and parachute, etc... Do I have to equip an item that gives me + stats to accomplish the job?  No.  Why do stats have to determine your skills?  Wouldn't the outcome of a battle determine that for you?  Fear my wrath I guess... I'm not mad or anything.  I just feel stats and levels don't = RPG, and I don't understand why people do.  If I could get an explination for why stats are needed to role play, maybe I would get it. 

If the arguement is that stats and levels have been in all RPGs, it still doesn't make sense.  Imagine if that's how everything in the world was. 

"What?  You can't make a flat screen TV! TVs are all CRTs that's how it's always been." 

"An automobile?  Look, horses and carriages have been around for ages.  You can't just change the way we travel on roads!"

"Air conditioners?  Are you out of your mind?  Don't you know the only way to get cool air is with a fan."

Ok, those were over the top, but that's how I see it.  RPGs shouldn't be confined to being all about stats and levels, there is room for different types of RPGs.

Originally posted by bleyzwun

 

      No...you don't need a magic condom to make sweet love to your significant other.. But if you expect to roleplay that you're James Bond and you want to para-sail halfway to the house then parachute into the bedroom through the skylight while shooting your Walther PBK at surrounding snipers....well if you can do that ...I'll shut up now for fear that I risk your wrath.Otherwise...in the context of a game set in a fantastical universe or if  you are playing a highly skilled professional in a real world setting...you need some sort of gauge to determine your success with certain skill-sets. Even the LARPers for World of Darkness use rock,paper,scissors sometimes.

 

My point is, if I did want to roleplay as James Bond and actually do the whole para-sail, and parachute, etc... Do I have to equip an item that gives me + stats to accomplish the job?  No.  Why do stats have to determine your skills?  Wouldn't the outcome of a battle determine that for you?  Fear my wrath I guess... I'm not mad or anything.  I just feel stats and levels don't = RPG, and I don't understand why people do.  If I could get an explination for why stats are needed to role play, maybe I would get it. 

If the arguement is that stats and levels have been in all RPGs, it still doesn't make sense.  Imagine if that's how everything in the world was. 

"What?  You can't make a flat screen TV! TVs are all CRTs that's how it's always been." 

"An automobile?  Look, horses and carriages have been around for ages.  You can't just change the way we travel on roads!"

"Air conditioners?  Are you out of your mind?  Don't you know the only way to get cool air is with a fan."

Ok, those were over the top, but that's how I see it.  RPGs shouldn't be confined to being all about stats and levels, there is room for different types of RPGs.

....I get your meaning. No ...I agree it's not necessary. I do think it can be good to tweak or customize your character..(even though it's not a good example for the constant gear changing of most mmos)......I always thought of  the stats on an item as either a product of utility,quality and/or enhancements. Quality: a butcher can cut through bone with a dull hacksaw...but it is probably quicker for him (partly to skill and training) to cut it with a sharp,balanced butchers knife..(+agility bonus)...and not any butchers knife...but a titanium butchers knife (+str bonus)...plus he is accustomed to using butchers knives and not hacksaws (a medical examiner might prefer a fine hacksaw at times and I think rarely a butchers knife) ...this example mostly captures my opinion on quality and utility the item. Enhancements can be anything from..sawing off a shotgun barrel to affect certain stats to adding a scope(various qualities available) to a rifle or magically enchanting a weapon. This works with level , class or skill based systems. I really don't see much difference in the 2 main systems. They all involve distribution of points through advancement..whether through levels or use of skill....and  by the time you've tweaked a skill based character to preference...it usually could conform with a particular class in a level based game. There are always exceptions of course. Take care.

AC1 ftw, best fun I've had with PvP in MMO's were back in AC1 Darktide's old school days.

I chose the dodgable option, but I should explain a bit further.

I would prefer it if spells were aimed in the more or less traditional D&D (p&p) style. On pen and paper you could try to dodge a lot of spells, while others were too hard or impossible to dodge.

Spells that should be impossible to dodge should conal spells, like prismatic spray. It's like a shotgun basically, if the caster is in range then the spell is just too wide to move out of the way. Most other single-target spells should fly in a straight line, some should come in from above (bigby's for example) or at angles.

Then there should be your AOE's, which right now function as they should for the most part. Fireball in DnD exploded when it got where you aimed, which gave you a pretty decent margin of error. I'd like to see a number of spells like that in such a system.

Of course casters should be squishy for people that don't use all of their spells to the best effect possible.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

This creates a much more intense fight with thinking and strategies as opposed to the WoW style of "Ok I'm in a fight and with this class I hit 2 4 3 2 1 6 5 2 3 and then he dies". There is no fun or excitement in that, nothing ever changes and every fight goes the same boring way.

Well you obviously haven't played WoW yet, because there is no such thing like that in WoW. I mean, in a pro pvp u cant make two battles exactly the same, plus you have to move your char around because a "statue" player is a dead player, thats why mages/locks and alike(pro ones) rely mostly on debuffs(which in most cases are instant) and instant spells like cone of cold and damage over time spells. Trust me, you dont wanna cast a 3 sec spell with a rogue pounding you with his skills + stuns + bleeds + poisons ;). Thats when your ability to know what you are doing comes in.

The bolt should go fast enough that it is impossible to dodge unless you started moving before it is cast.  But then that would not look as cool graphically so they compromise by making it follow you.

Arrow should be the same.  Possible to dodge but only before it is shot, not after.

Originally posted by tiagolemos

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

This creates a much more intense fight with thinking and strategies as opposed to the WoW style of "Ok I'm in a fight and with this class I hit 2 4 3 2 1 6 5 2 3 and then he dies". There is no fun or excitement in that, nothing ever changes and every fight goes the same boring way.

Well you obviously haven't played WoW yet, because there is no such thing like that in WoW. I mean, in a pro pvp u cant make two battles exactly the same, plus you have to move your char around because a "statue" player is a dead player, thats why mages/locks and alike(pro ones) rely mostly on debuffs(which in most cases are instant) and instant spells like cone of cold and damage over time spells. Trust me, you dont wanna cast a 3 sec spell with a rogue pounding you with his skills + stuns + bleeds + poisons ;). Thats when your ability to know what you are doing comes in.

You created an account to make an offtopic post due to someone belittling your favorite game. Theres a word for that around these parts...

 Thought I could contribute to this. In EQ, when I played way back when, not sure now, you had DD and bolt spells.  DD spells were Direct damage and would hit the target instantly, having them explode on target. Bolt Spells would fire a magic bolt(which had a visual of a fireball or something) that could be seen flying through the air. The bolt would indeed follow the target BUT if there was a tree or wall or terrain(hill) in the way, it would not make contact. Therefore it WAS dodgeable. 

       As long as you have spammable jumping/dashes NO >.> 

Take a look at gunz/s4 league and even dragonica...all u do is jumping arround ,I would suggest a battle sistem like the one in megaten

The only way you're going to make dodgeable spells work is if they're all insta-cast. No one is going to wait 1-3 seconds to cast a powerful spell, only to have it easily dodged and they find themselves without a large chunk of mana. It's like playing a FPS with a cannon that takes 3 seconds to fire while your opponent rips you apart with a SMG.

Then again, that goes against magic the way it's currently portrayed in MMOs (that I know of).

If you had a spell with a cast time that was AoE upon impact, then it'd be a little more balanced. But then people would complain that those are impossible to dodge unless you get behind some cover, like a wall or rock, and casters could just sit on high and reign down destruction, which is no different than tracking spells really. Both almost guarentee a hit.

Dodgeable "spells" could work if someone came out with an Avatar: The Last Airbender MMO. They use "Magic", but no long cast times. All their attacks are fluid and quick, so that even if they miss with one strike, they immediately flow into the next one (using martial arts). Also combine a mix of cone/AoE attacks with single target blasts. Lastly, if the game had dodgeable spells, I want to see no jumping in combat. It's stupid and ridiculous, especially if you're a heavy plate warrior.