Think about it for a second F2play games are comprised of two types of people, those that will pay and those that wont. But the costs are still the same to support both types of players. So the game has to be designed in such a way that those that are willing to pay to experience all the game has to offer will have to carry the weight financially of the free player base. That means the game is not designed for a paying player to be able to fork over 15 a month and get everything the game has. That paying player has to fork over 2 to 3 to 4 times that.

The entire F2P industry designs a game around micro charges, stop and think about that for a second, every aspect of the game is designed around parting you and your money as often as possible.  Every game play and design decision is made in a way that holds back some part of the experience that requires payment. The end result being that at some point paying players wake up from the fog of tossing 50 to 60 to 100 dollars a month at a sub par product and finally quiting. Their really nothing more than shopping malls wrapped in a game engine mixed in with a casino style play model. The house always wins baby. I havent given one cent to these guys and never will.

So lets review. Play (up until this point anyways) amature titles for free and miss out on the high end systems and gear. Or pay 4 times what you should to have access to the whole sub par game. Everyone loses except the developer and publisher who get to make a budget MMO and potentially enjoy the same revenue stream as a quality pay to play game.
 

Originally posted by alderdale

Think about it for a second F2play games are comprised of two types of people, those that will pay and those that wont. But the costs are still the same to support both types of players. So the game has to be designed in such a way that those that are willing to pay to experience all the game has to offer will have to carry the weight financially of the free player base. That means the game is not designed for a paying player to be able to fork over 15 a month and get everything the game has. That paying player has to fork over 2 to 3 to 4 times that.

The entire F2P industry designs a game around micro charges, stop and think about that for a second, every aspect of the game is designed around parting you and your money as often as possible.  Every game play and design decision is made in a way that holds back some part of the experience that requires payment. The end result being that at some point paying players wake up from the fog of tossing 50 to 60 to 100 dollars a month at a sub par product and finally quiting. Their really nothing more than shopping malls wrapped in a game engine mixed in with a casino style play model. The house always wins baby. I havent given one cent to these guys and never will.

So lets review. Play (up until this point anyways) amature titles for free and miss out on the high end systems and gear. Or pay 4 times what you should to have access to the whole sub par game. Everyone loses except the developer and publisher who get to make a budget MMO and potentially enjoy the same revenue stream as a quality pay to play game.
 

Agreed 100%. This summs up the microtransaction gaming modell very well in my opinion.

And this is worse than slow-progression in P2P... how?

All systems of payment can be abused.

If you pay to play, developers can slow down progress.

If it's free to play, item malls that give huge advantages can be implemented.

Wrong.   The free players exsist in a F2P game to fill up the world and provide whatever content/interactions for the paying players that they do.   EDIT:   not completely true but you saying they're nothing but a drain on paying players is completely false.

When you pay for stuff in a F2P game you're paying for a different dynamic than you would for a P2P game, and enough people obviously deem it worthy enough.   You can't compare someone who pays for a F2P game to someone who pays for a P2P game because they're paying for different experiances.   One of the core things(atleast as I consider it) that are paid for is the ability to just stop playing whenever you feel like and start paying whenever you feel like without worrying about a sub.

Another fact that you need to consider is that under a casual/real person's play time they probably won't be paying $80 a month because those same item shops are developed so that for every X dollar amount you spend you also need to spend X time in game(leveling pet, gear wearing down, or similar).    Basically if you're spending 80 cents for a 2 hour level++ potion(a stupid item type I would never buy in the first place) you're going to need to play  100 hours every month to spend that much money.   If I spent that much time in a month on a game I'd feel mentally retarded because there is a whole lot of stuff you can get done in 100 hours.

F2P games also utilize technical and man-hour resources differently allowing them to have a smaller income/player ratio.  

Originally posted by paulscott

Wrong.   The free players exsist in a F2P game to fill up the world and provide whatever content/interactions for the paying players that they do.   EDIT:   not completely true but you saying they're nothing but a drain on paying players is completely false.

When you pay for stuff in a F2P game you're paying for a different dynamic than you would for a P2P game, and enough people obviously deem it worthy enough.   You can't compare someone who pays for a F2P game to someone who pays for a P2P game because they're paying for different experiances.   One of the core things(atleast as I consider it) that are paid for is the ability to just stop playing whenever you feel like and start paying whenever you feel like without worrying about a sub.

Another fact that you need to consider is that under a casual/real person's play time they probably won't be paying $80 a month because those same item shops are developed so that for every X dollar amount you spend you also need to spend X time in game(leveling pet, gear wearing down, or similar).    Basically if you're spending 80 cents for a 2 hour level++ potion(a stupid item type I would never buy in the first place) you're going to need to play  100 hours every month to spend that much money.   If I spent that much time in a month on a game I'd feel mentally retarded because there is a whole lot of stuff you can get done in 100 hours.

F2P games also utilize technical and man-hour resources differently allowing them to have a smaller income/player ratio.  

I agree with you 100%

Originally posted by paulscott

Wrong.   The free players exsist in a F2P game to fill up the world and provide whatever content/interactions for the paying players that they do.   EDIT:   not completely true but you saying they're nothing but a drain on paying players is completely false.

When you pay for stuff in a F2P game you're paying for a different dynamic than you would for a P2P game, and enough people obviously deem it worthy enough.   You can't compare someone who pays for a F2P game to someone who pays for a P2P game because they're paying for different experiances.   One of the core things(atleast as I consider it) that are paid for is the ability to just stop playing whenever you feel like and start paying whenever you feel like without worrying about a sub.

Another fact that you need to consider is that under a casual/real person's play time they probably won't be paying $80 a month because those same item shops are developed so that for every X dollar amount you spend you also need to spend X time in game(leveling pet, gear wearing down, or similar).    Basically if you're spending 80 cents for a 2 hour level++ potion(a stupid item type I would never buy in the first place) you're going to need to play  100 hours every month to spend that much money.   If I spent that much time in a month on a game I'd feel mentally retarded because there is a whole lot of stuff you can get done in 100 hours.

F2P games also utilize technical and man-hour resources differently allowing them to have a smaller income/player ratio.  

You make some great points and have some great math skills.  All that aside the reality is that once I start playing these games  some quick math of my own shows Id be spending an easy 30 bucks a month just to maintain some semblance to a pay to play game before I even looking into the real money dump that is crafting.  I will stick with my orginal post, playing a F2P for free feels like having a splinter somewhere you cant find and paying to play is like having a monkey on your back you cant shake, neither of which appeal to me much.

Originally posted by alderdale

Think about it for a second F2play games are comprised of two types of people, those that will pay and those that wont. But the costs are still the same to support both types of players. So the game has to be designed in such a way that those that are willing to pay to experience all the game has to offer will have to carry the weight financially of the free player base. That means the game is not designed for a paying player to be able to fork over 15 a month and get everything the game has. That paying player has to fork over 2 to 3 to 4 times that.

The entire F2P industry designs a game around micro charges, stop and think about that for a second, every aspect of the game is designed around parting you and your money as often as possible.  Every game play and design decision is made in a way that holds back some part of the experience that requires payment. The end result being that at some point paying players wake up from the fog of tossing 50 to 60 to 100 dollars a month at a sub par product and finally quiting. Their really nothing more than shopping malls wrapped in a game engine mixed in with a casino style play model. The house always wins baby. I havent given one cent to these guys and never will.

So lets review. Play (up until this point anyways) amature titles for free and miss out on the high end systems and gear. Or pay 4 times what you should to have access to the whole sub par game. Everyone loses except the developer and publisher who get to make a budget MMO and potentially enjoy the same revenue stream as a quality pay to play game.
 

I agree.  Whats more is that F2P games are making a killing right now, and its gotten to the point where a it doesn't even make sense economically to create a traditional MMO unless you are going to pull in a million subs because you can make twice the amount of money with 1/4'th the players

Oh wow those are some amazing math skills...  I can write custom collision tests for a game but simple multiplication makes me "blip" out.

As for item shops.   There are still games that I consider completely uplayable as a game for a few reasons.   Leveling potions being a pet peeve since when I use an item shop I want something that actually provides content(IE: pet,  area unlock, skill unlock) or similar,   not something that should be part of the game already.    I'd also view crafting that costs real money along the  same lines since that's something that should aready be a part of the game.

I'm surprised that F2P has taken off so much. I've completely ignored the whole aspect of the industry. My impression of F2P MMOs has always been that MMOs skirt the boundries of playability already with being grind and loot based, so why would I want to settle for an MMO that was done on a much lower budget with none of the trappings that make a P2P experience more enjoyable than simply grinding grinding grinding?

Unless these F2P games are a lot more interesting than I thougth possible, my impression of the F2P player was always some kid who was compelled to collect and advance for the sake of advancing without concern for whether the game is actually fun to play on it's own merits (Which defines most aisan MMOs, where F2P originated).

Pfft. F2P Micro-trans games are a plague on the industry, and if we're not careful we won't have a decent game left to play.

Vote with your wallet...don't play them. Stay FAR away from them.

Let the asians have them....send a clear message that if an MMO wants to stand a chance in the US / EU that they need to provide a quality game with a standard subscription.

Some people prefer micro over subscription.

My #1 love for micro is the lack of commitment. No matter if I pay or not, I can leave for 3 months and come back to all my stuff. You arn't locked in a contract by month, so its less stressful. I find myself sometimes thinkin, "shit, I havent been getting my moneys worth of EVE this month."

The main argument against micro is people assume the rich win. If you really think about it it isn't much different from sub games. In World of Warcraft, the guy who spends the most time playing wins. In a F2P, replace time with money. Time is money, so there really isn't as much of a difference as you think. Both are viable options, but micro has gotten a terrible reputation because tons of korean games gave it a bad name. If done right (most those korean grinders are not), micro is a great system.

Originally posted by alderdale

Think about it for a second F2play games are comprised of two types of people, those that will pay and those that wont. But the costs are still the same to support both types of players. So the game has to be designed in such a way that those that are willing to pay to experience all the game has to offer will have to carry the weight financially of the free player base. That means the game is not designed for a paying player to be able to fork over 15 a month and get everything the game has. That paying player has to fork over 2 to 3 to 4 times that.

The entire F2P industry designs a game around micro charges, stop and think about that for a second, every aspect of the game is designed around parting you and your money as often as possible.  Every game play and design decision is made in a way that holds back some part of the experience that requires payment. The end result being that at some point paying players wake up from the fog of tossing 50 to 60 to 100 dollars a month at a sub par product and finally quiting. Their really nothing more than shopping malls wrapped in a game engine mixed in with a casino style play model. The house always wins baby. I havent given one cent to these guys and never will.

So lets review. Play (up until this point anyways) amature titles for free and miss out on the high end systems and gear. Or pay 4 times what you should to have access to the whole sub par game. Everyone loses except the developer and publisher who get to make a budget MMO and potentially enjoy the same revenue stream as a quality pay to play game.
 

F2P games would work if the developers didn't throw in items that bork game mechanics.  Just leave it to the more fun elements " decorative items ", etc.   I seriously hate those 2x exp, 2x ability points, or increased success/drop rate items.  I don't really think that F2P is designed to drain money from users, since I haven't found one yet that you can't be successful if you only spent the same amount you would have in a normal P2P game.

 It's true that a lot of micro payment games are, well, not so good. But there are the few out there that are worth it and are not only fun, but have the content and a dedicated development team to make them an enjoyable experience.

Even some of the micro games have decent cash shops, where there truly is no "advantage", including XP potions and whatnot. But even some of the games with decent cash shops are still poor games. So I don't believe the primary fault of micro games is the cash shop, but runs on a different level. Primarily, the development team. Recycled gameplay mechanics, lackluster art design, lack of content, balancing issues, and poor polish all add up to make a forgettable MMO. This, unfortunately, is at the heart of most micro games.

I'm sure that part of this is because of the limited budgets that come along with micro games, but even a low budget team can have a bit more imagination and make a game more unique. It's been done before. It needs to happen again.