When US guild Exodus received the achievement Alone in the Darkness for their killing of Yogg-Saron without keepers, they apparently used an exploit. While there had already been accusations of this, I take anything within the WOW community lightly until I see otherwise. There will always be some jealous punk somewhere crying foul when you do something that they can't. There's a new thread in our realm forums every day about the account I hacked last week, or the person who was removed from our guild without reason (of course in their eyes), or our progress. This time, in the case of Exodus, it just so happens that it was true.

What is an exploit can be debated until the cows come home. This goes back to standing behind the fence on Mandy, and I am sure farther. But that's the first time I can remember an entire guild being suspended or banned. My thought on this is that they were clever and used a game mechanic against the boss. Certainly it wasn't the way it was intended, but this being the case, it was in Blizzard's job to fix the programming error. While I don't believe in cheating within the game, there is a gray area between when it's a programming error or all out cheating. This IS a game mechanic, whether intended or not, and I find it ridiculous that Blizzard would punish a guild for THEIR mistake. Kobyashi Maru anyone? That being said, I don't think the kill should count, especially by any record keeping standard.

While I have never condoned exploits, I will say that Blizzard has been changing directions lately. They are now focusing on a new MMO, and less and less resources are being given to World of Warcraft. Most average players might argue this, but it is completely evident in the lack of armor, design, and content in general. A good example is the new armor which is faction based, however, it all looks the same. Why? Because what's the first thing you need on a new MMO... designers.

I have to say that I do believe that Blizzard stacks the cards in their favor, and probably do make bosses impossible until they decide otherwise. This has been suspected for years, but it's really starting to show lately. With all of the MMORPGs coming out, and with resources at Blizzard being diverted to the new MMO, it wouldn't surprise me if Exodus and Ensidia's accusations are true. Blizzard has already admitted that they released Black Temple too early, and what would keep them from not allowing people to complete content until they felt like they could put out another raid instance with rehashed mobs dawning new color schemes.

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There is no debate at all on this one, they found a bug and exploited it to kill the boss, plain and simple. They knew all too well what they were doing, they knew it was against the rules and they have to face the consequences for those actions!

Maybe if they had notified Blizzard straight away that there was an issue they may have avoided a suspension, but instead they bragged that they had defeated the boss and also brag about how they did it!

 Your post isn't coherent and doesn't make a lot of sense. Exploits have always been in the game and aren't related to the colours of armor. Exodus clearly knew they where cheating because they didn't fraps the event, or so they claimed, because obviously they didn't want the world to see they cheated. What they should have done, is basically what Ensidia did in similar circomestances, which is to report the exploit to Blizzard, and not take claim for the kill. By not reporting the exploit and even taking claim for it as a legal kill, they made a joke out of themselves and where rightfully banned.

Exploits will always be present in online games and of course they should be fixed but in the meantime perpetrators who take advantage of them like Exodus did, should be banned. There will never be an exploit free MMO, but that being said WoW has very, very few exploits compared to some of its competitors. 

The fact that armor looks a lot alike in WoTLK is another issue, it has nothing to do with a lack of designers, its actually something that is demanded by the gaming community. The problem with The Burning Crusade that a lot of people had was that until you got a full set of tiered gear, you basically looked like a clown, as armors mismatched. So players had more choice in armor but since a player rarely has a full set, one would walk around with a green chestpiece, yellow gloves and red shoulders. Blizzard fixed this in WOTLK by making all armor of certain classes similar, so while people actually all do wear a variety of different armors, they look alike because the color and styles are similar. 

The advantage of this is, that even during levelling your character looks consistant and stylish, the whole clownslook is gone and as you reach 80 and collect gear at no point does your armorset look ugly as even the tiered gear is styled similar to the green and blue quest gear you picked up during levelling. 

The disadvantage of this is, that obviously because of this system, players look a lot alike.

Personally I like the gear in WOTLK better then the gear before that, I really hated to look like a clown and my characters look a lot cooler now. That being said, I think they should allow players to colour their armor pieces, that way you'd still have some variety in gear.

Tbh it's Blizzards fault so how can you suspend someone for finding a bug and taking advantage of it? Pisses me off when developers cry over this though it's their own lack of testing.

And i was like WHATEVA...

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Tbh it's Blizzards fault so how can you suspend someone for finding a bug and taking advantage of it? Pisses me off when developers cry over this though it's their own lack of testing.

To give a comparison, let's say you walk past an ATM machine and it appears to be broke and money is flying out of it. Now you can do 2 things, either report the issue at the bank, or take the money and be silent about it. Now if the police catch you, it won't be enough to say "hey they should have the machine fixed". You took money that wasn't yours so your guilty. 

Now back to this US guild, they knew they where exploiting, exploiting game mechanics is illegal by the Terms of Service you have to sign onto when you log into the game. So if you don't agree with the idea that abusing exploits can get you banned, you shouldn't have hit the "I Agree" button on the ToS and thus never have even started playing the game. Too bad you won't find any MMO out there that doesn't have "exploiting game mechanics" as a bannable offense in their ToS though. 

Regardless, what makes this exploiting worste is that unlike other guilds who have immediatly been forthcoming about the bugs and exploits they used, these Americans kept their mouth shut and claimed the actual world first as being legit. Had they been forthcoming and honest about this, they would not have been banned, but they decided to lie to everyone just to have their 15 minutes of fame and now they are being properly banned and shamed for it. 

Originally posted by Shana77

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Tbh it's Blizzards fault so how can you suspend someone for finding a bug and taking advantage of it? Pisses me off when developers cry over this though it's their own lack of testing.

 

To give a comparison, let's say you walk past an ATM machine and it appears to be broke and money is flying out of it. Now you can do 2 things, either report the issue at the bank, or take the money and be silent about it. Now if the police catch you, it won't be enough to say "hey they should have the machine fixed". You took money that wasn't yours so your guilty. 

Now back to this US guild, they knew they where exploiting, exploiting game mechanics is illegal by the Terms of Service you have to sign onto when you log into the game. So if you don't agree with the idea that abusing exploits can get you banned, you shouldn't have hit the "I Agree" button on the ToS and thus never have even started playing the game. Too bad you won't find any MMO out there that doesn't have "exploiting game mechanics" as a bannable offense in their ToS though. 

Regardless, what makes this exploiting worste is that unlike other guilds who have immediatly been forthcoming about the bugs and exploits they used, these Americans kept their mouth shut and claimed the actual world first as being legit. Had they been forthcoming and honest about this, they would not have been banned, but they decided to lie to everyone just to have their 15 minutes of fame and now they are being properly banned and shamed for it. 

PERFECT.. I couldn't have done any better.. except that American part.. lol I'm from the US and I would hate to be lumped into the "American" part..  I'm honorable and play for fun..  It's a shame that people in general reguardless of nationality, need to cheat to win.. :(    Why even play then?

 Wasn't specifically a dig at Americans, obviously there are cheaters on every continent. 

 72 hours aint too bad of a punishment is it?

Maybe if they report the bug next time, they might get free game time.

(oh boy here goes)

"To give a comparison, let's say you walk past an ATM machine and it appears to be broke and money is flying out of it. Now you can do 2 things, either report the issue at the bank, or take the money and be silent about it. Now if the police catch you, it won't be enough to say "hey they should have the machine fixed". You took money that wasn't yours so your guilty. "

Fairly recently here in UK a cash machine had a problem in that it was giving twice the money you asked for. The publics response was to phone their friends and with 2 hours the machine was empty.  The police did sweet FA.

In life and wow  many times things don't work as they should sometimes thats good for you and sometimes it isn't. If you have ever contacted a GM about something that is broke in game and has negatively effected you then they probably won't have fixed it to your satisfaction or re-imbursed you. So to mass suspend like this seems a bit heavy.

The basic truth is they did this because they can and they wanted to make an example of the guild so others think careful about clever tactics to speed through content. Its a delaying measure nothing more.

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Originally posted by xerax
Fairly recently here in UK a cash machine had a problem in that it was giving twice the money you asked for. The publics response was to phone their friends and with 2 hours the machine was empty.  The police did sweet FA.

The basic truth is they did this because they can and they wanted to make an example of the guild so others think careful about clever tactics to speed through content. Its a delaying measure nothing more.

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On your first point, we don't know how each bank dealt with those customers as yet (there would have been more than one bank involved in this), but you can be damned sure that the bank won't be out of pocket. A few went on about how they were sticking it to the banks, but all they were actually doing was taking out money they didn't have to spare that the banks would most likely charge back to their accounts anyway at some point in the future. Worst case scenario is that they will charge back any losses to the contractor that made the mistake in the first place, probably putting them or at least some of their workers out of business/jobs.

On your second, they agreed not to exploit any bugs found in the game before they started playing, they are an experienced raiding guild too, so which ever way you want to colour it they knew they were in the wrong and were punished accordingly.

if this was a guild event...how did someone on the outside find out about it ...to report it.  Maybe if the guild had not bragged about it...then maybe you would still be playing.  Learn to keep your mouth shut ...lessons learned....better yet...dont cheat.

I don't think they posted the video until after. The fact is that Blizzard made the fight impossible because they don't have the resources to create the raids that existed in BC, therefore they are making some things damn near impossible. The red flag was that it was beat, because Blizzard knew it couldn't be. I also am willing to bet that they check into every single world first.

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Originally posted by chaosngn
I don't think they posted the video until after. The fact is that Blizzard made the fight impossible because they don't have the resources to create the raids that existed in BC, therefore they are making some things damn near impossible. The red flag was that it was beat, because Blizzard knew it couldn't be. I also am willing to bet that they check into every single world first.

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This talk of impossible bosses is being banded around far too much now and it makes me laugh so much. For ages now hardcore guilds have been pissing and moaning about how easy the content was getting and they would like something challenging, well WTF, maybe you should have been a little more careful about what you wished for!!!!

You can't have it both ways, kick and scream like kids that it is all too casual and getting too easy and then cry foul when you are given a real challenge to overcome???

Where the hell does this no resources thing come from?? This huge lack of resources isn't stopping them creating another 5/10/25 encounter in the next patch is it?

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Shana77

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Tbh it's Blizzards fault so how can you suspend someone for finding a bug and taking advantage of it? Pisses me off when developers cry over this though it's their own lack of testing.

 

To give a comparison, let's say you walk past an ATM machine and it appears to be broke and money is flying out of it. Now you can do 2 things, either report the issue at the bank, or take the money and be silent about it. Now if the police catch you, it won't be enough to say "hey they should have the machine fixed". You took money that wasn't yours so your guilty. 

Now back to this US guild, they knew they where exploiting, exploiting game mechanics is illegal by the Terms of Service you have to sign onto when you log into the game. So if you don't agree with the idea that abusing exploits can get you banned, you shouldn't have hit the "I Agree" button on the ToS and thus never have even started playing the game. Too bad you won't find any MMO out there that doesn't have "exploiting game mechanics" as a bannable offense in their ToS though. 

Regardless, what makes this exploiting worste is that unlike other guilds who have immediatly been forthcoming about the bugs and exploits they used, these Americans kept their mouth shut and claimed the actual world first as being legit. Had they been forthcoming and honest about this, they would not have been banned, but they decided to lie to everyone just to have their 15 minutes of fame and now they are being properly banned and shamed for it. 

 

PERFECT.. I couldn't have done any better.. except that American part.. lol I'm from the US and I would hate to be lumped into the "American" part..  I'm honorable and play for fun..  It's a shame that people in general reguardless of nationality, need to cheat to win.. :(    Why even play then?

Firstly thats not the same and even if it was you'd take th emoney and it would be your right cause it's the stupid banks fault. Secondly it ain't cheating, it's in the game so it's legal.

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Shana77

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Tbh it's Blizzards fault so how can you suspend someone for finding a bug and taking advantage of it? Pisses me off when developers cry over this though it's their own lack of testing.

 

To give a comparison, let's say you walk past an ATM machine and it appears to be broke and money is flying out of it. Now you can do 2 things, either report the issue at the bank, or take the money and be silent about it. Now if the police catch you, it won't be enough to say "hey they should have the machine fixed". You took money that wasn't yours so your guilty. 

Now back to this US guild, they knew they where exploiting, exploiting game mechanics is illegal by the Terms of Service you have to sign onto when you log into the game. So if you don't agree with the idea that abusing exploits can get you banned, you shouldn't have hit the "I Agree" button on the ToS and thus never have even started playing the game. Too bad you won't find any MMO out there that doesn't have "exploiting game mechanics" as a bannable offense in their ToS though. 

Regardless, what makes this exploiting worste is that unlike other guilds who have immediatly been forthcoming about the bugs and exploits they used, these Americans kept their mouth shut and claimed the actual world first as being legit. Had they been forthcoming and honest about this, they would not have been banned, but they decided to lie to everyone just to have their 15 minutes of fame and now they are being properly banned and shamed for it. 

 

PERFECT.. I couldn't have done any better.. except that American part.. lol I'm from the US and I would hate to be lumped into the "American" part..  I'm honorable and play for fun..  It's a shame that people in general reguardless of nationality, need to cheat to win.. :(    Why even play then?

 

Firstly thats not the same and even if it was you'd take th emoney and it would be your right cause it's the stupid banks fault. Secondly it ain't cheating, it's in the game so it's legal.

No it wouldn't

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Shana77

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

Tbh it's Blizzards fault so how can you suspend someone for finding a bug and taking advantage of it? Pisses me off when developers cry over this though it's their own lack of testing.

 

To give a comparison, let's say you walk past an ATM machine and it appears to be broke and money is flying out of it. Now you can do 2 things, either report the issue at the bank, or take the money and be silent about it. Now if the police catch you, it won't be enough to say "hey they should have the machine fixed". You took money that wasn't yours so your guilty. 

Now back to this US guild, they knew they where exploiting, exploiting game mechanics is illegal by the Terms of Service you have to sign onto when you log into the game. So if you don't agree with the idea that abusing exploits can get you banned, you shouldn't have hit the "I Agree" button on the ToS and thus never have even started playing the game. Too bad you won't find any MMO out there that doesn't have "exploiting game mechanics" as a bannable offense in their ToS though. 

Regardless, what makes this exploiting worste is that unlike other guilds who have immediatly been forthcoming about the bugs and exploits they used, these Americans kept their mouth shut and claimed the actual world first as being legit. Had they been forthcoming and honest about this, they would not have been banned, but they decided to lie to everyone just to have their 15 minutes of fame and now they are being properly banned and shamed for it. 

 

PERFECT.. I couldn't have done any better.. except that American part.. lol I'm from the US and I would hate to be lumped into the "American" part..  I'm honorable and play for fun..  It's a shame that people in general reguardless of nationality, need to cheat to win.. :(    Why even play then?

 

Firstly thats not the same and even if it was you'd take th emoney and it would be your right cause it's the stupid banks fault. Secondly it ain't cheating, it's in the game so it's legal.

Ok, first of all, even if you want to claim it's the banks fault, it's still not yours, and it's still illegal as it is theft.  Even if the bank accidentally puts money in your account, if you don't give it back, it is theft.

As far as cheating in WoW is concerned, the EULA clearly warns about exploits.  They did it.  They knew it was wrong.  Now they have to pay the consequences.

They exploited a bug.  The bug caused adds during the fight to aggro a healer who wasn't actually attackable by said adds.  This caused the adds to evade and allowed the dps to focus on the boss which made the phase easy rather than difficult. 

Here is where I have a problem with the guild.  They wiped on one attempt, but also found the bug.  They realized how that bug could be exploited and downed the boss on the next attempt.  The guild then took pictures and promoted themselves as having completed a world first.

This was their mistake.  They put the spotlight on themselves.  They deserved to be banned.  If you know you are exploiting and then flaunt it, expect a ban.

As for the ATM analogy, it is perfect.  Just because something is exploitable, doesn't mean exploiting it places blame on the thing being exploited.  That just means you are a dishonest person and need to rationalize your behavior so you don't feel guilty.

Originally posted by chaosngn

 But that's the first time I can remember an entire guild being suspended or banned.

This has happened once before I believe. Way back in pre-bc there was a guild on my old server who pulled the Ironforge leader into old ironforge. If I recall correctly they were all banned for a few days, but don't quote me on that.

Originally posted by retrospectic

They exploited a bug.  The bug caused adds during the fight to aggro a healer who wasn't actually attackable by said adds.  This caused the adds to evade and allowed the dps to focus on the boss which made the phase easy rather than difficult. 

 

Here is where I have a problem with the guild.  They wiped on one attempt, but also found the bug.  They realized how that bug could be exploited and downed the boss on the next attempt.  The guild then took pictures and promoted themselves as having completed a world first.

This was their mistake.  They put the spotlight on themselves.  They deserved to be banned.  If you know you are exploiting and then flaunt it, expect a ban.

As for the ATM analogy, it is perfect.  Just because something is exploitable, doesn't mean exploiting it places blame on the thing being exploited.  That just means you are a dishonest person and need to rationalize your behavior so you don't feel guilty.

This is perfect.

All the people who say "its blizzards fault, it wasnt my fault cause it was there..." are saying it cause it was to their advantage. If a level 5 rogue came up behind your geared level 80 and one shotted him and stole all your armor cause the rogue found some bug that allowed him to, it would no longer be fair, it would no longer be fine cause it was blizzards fault for allowing it, it would be "HE CHEATED, BAN HIM NOW!"

Perception is key.