Originally posted by Waterlily

Becoming more and more an issue. But it's not just cheats I think, farmers and the way you level are the real reason I think.

The more levels you gain, the slower it gets but the more power you have and the more money you make. Newbees can't pay for those items anymore, they buy gold, stimulate the gold sellers and more and more money comes into the system.

Result: Inflation

Solution of gamemakers:... Platsinks....to deflate the economy

Doesn't work, they can't control inflation anymore and everyone keeps buying gold and prices inflate to ridiculous heights. Deflate the economy too much and it dies. It's artificial and is destined to be screwed up.

.

Only real solution is stopping the insane inflation by making top players earn about the same as the low end players, which means putting them onto a level playing field, something MMO developers don't want, they want to keep you running in your little rat wheel of progression.

Really?

Your looking at this from the wrong perspective.  If I'm a high level character that's put in 100x the time and monthly fees into a game that someone who just started the game and I can only earn what a low level can earn.....then why should i continue to work at all?

I'm a casual gamer myself....and I don't spend a ful ltime job's worth of hours playing MMOs...but some people do, and they are usually the most loyal customers to that game company.  Why in the world would a game company take a dump on the players that's given the most to the company so that new players can buy all kinda cool stuff right out of the gate?

Macroing and Gold farmers are a problem for games that require too much money to progress your charater.  Lineage 2 is one of the biggest games known for farmers and level progression taxes you mroe than any game I've seen.  Games where items and consumables are cheaper usually have less problems with macroing and farmers because the demand for the money is much lower.

Don't lower a characther's earning potential.....lower the price of goods.

Originally posted by altairzq

Macros ruin everything not only te economy. Devs should start creating ways to avoid macroing. But of course they want macroing in their games to attract more gamers. Like fishing in WOW, is a good anti macro system but.. oh wonders, they put a bright red feather on the float so the macro program can find it against the blue water.

The float has a bright red feather so the human eye can find it better.  If the bobber were to blend in with the water it might make it harder for bots but make the feature unplayable to humans. 

Originally posted by Adamantine

Err WoW doesnt try to avoid macros.

Vanguard does, for example... it has macros, but only ver y limited ones. No conditions, and only a single command. You can basically only give out messages ("Healer rezzing player, please nobody else rezz him as well, keep up the healing") or do things like "Equip weapon x before using skill y" or "try to use skill x, y, z if any of them is useable" - where the first one that is up is actually executed and the rest gets ignored.

And of course Guild Wars where you only have 8 skills total and no macros whatsoever (unless I missed something there, very new to that game).

He is talking about 3rd party 'macros' aka bots and not about the built-in legal macro system.

Originally posted by Josher

I think we can tell who here makes some cash on the side playing videogames here.  A few might be some full blown farmers.  Why else would a person so vehemently defend a full player run economy with no limitations?  

Before farmers, it was cool buying and selling from players.  Now, I couldn't give a &^^#@ anymore.  When prices for simple things become so inflated that you either BUY the gold or cease to have a life, because you have to farm it yourself, the game is ruined in that respect.    As long as developers allow NPC vendors to sell every applicable item in the game at set prices, its always fair.  Let players undercut the vendors so theres still that minigame available for crafters.   Farmers and the lazy idiots who buy the gold have all killed themselves and everyone else in the process.  I guess the farmers aren't suffering as long as the idiots keep paying them=)  Sad.

It depends on the game.  If its like Eve, let the players fight it out.  Everyone knows that game is more a money simulator in a scifi setting, than an actual videogame.  If its something like WOW, don't allow people to buy anything of real impiortance.  Make them DO SOMETHING adventurous in the spirit of the game to earn whatever if happens to be.  Want that cool mount, you have to accomplish something or do the quest.  Don't just let people buy 1mil gold and buy it outright.  Its lame. 

 

I am so feeling this post you got the right idea there bro

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

I have been saying this for years. Not for EvE, but in general of the MMO community. You get hit from all sides, You have the farmers that end up inflating prices to the point of, if you dont buy gold, you cant get the items you need during your leveling career and if you do buy gold, you just end up helping to inflate the prices even more. Player Run economies are just bad for game play. Everyone wants to equate it to the real world but its not the real world, its just a game and sadly people are even more greedy in game than they are in the real world.

Take crafters for instance. In every MMO that I have played (and that is a boat load of em) crafters always end up inflating their prices to much more than an adventurer can gain at an equal rate. In most cases it is usually about 5 times more than what an adventurer makes in a given hour. I have confronted many of these folks in game and their usual answer was, do you know how boring crafting is! So, they are not doing crafting because the enjoy it, they do it because they know that they can get rich from it (in game anway)!

Take for instance, EQ2. I watched a group corner the market on food and drink on my server. No matter how many food and drink makers their was on my server, when you went to buy some from the auction house, you almost always bought it at that groups prices. Anytime someone put up food and drink below what they charged, they always bought it all  up and repushed it with their prices. I watched a real life friend who was involved in this get stinking rich in the game while the casual player suffered because of the inflated prices. Sadly, EvE has probably the best player run economy of all the games I have played and they are almost as bad as the rest.

I know most people will not agree with me on this but I have always felt player run economies ruin the game for me. Just look at COH! All they have are recipes and invention drops and the prices are through the roof. Common stuff on my server is going for outragous prices now and dont even get me started on a purple rare drop. I could never afford it unless I did buy money from a farmer.

The only true solution to this is developers have to put a stop to player run economies. If they want an auction house or they have crafting in the game, they have to set the high and lows for the items, not the players. If you want to be a crafter because you like doing that, great, you will still make a profit, you just wont get stinking rich by controling the market. Crafters and adventures should IMO, make about the same amount of money per hour no matter what. When a developer gets that right, you will see a very healthy game and one that will be around for a long time.

I was so feeling this point of view man I appreciate all of your posts here. So great to read posts from people that play different MMOs and can give fresh perspectives from their point-of-view.

 The real issue is that mmorpg money is created from nothing and never goes away so with the years there is more and more money in the game driving prises up. Aka mmorpg inflation.

For this to not be an issue there has to be a zero-sum economy which to my knowledge has never been attempted in an mmorpg.

 And by zero-sum I mean that there is a finite amount of resources in the game. 

One issue with this is if a player hordes resources and then quits/takes a long break. For this to work the resources that player has on him must somehow be redistributed back into the game world.

Originally posted by PatchDay

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

I have been saying this for years. Not for EvE, but in general of the MMO community. You get hit from all sides, You have the farmers that end up inflating prices to the point of, if you dont buy gold, you cant get the items you need during your leveling career and if you do buy gold, you just end up helping to inflate the prices even more. Player Run economies are just bad for game play. Everyone wants to equate it to the real world but its not the real world, its just a game and sadly people are even more greedy in game than they are in the real world.

Take crafters for instance. In every MMO that I have played (and that is a boat load of em) crafters always end up inflating their prices to much more than an adventurer can gain at an equal rate. In most cases it is usually about 5 times more than what an adventurer makes in a given hour. I have confronted many of these folks in game and their usual answer was, do you know how boring crafting is! So, they are not doing crafting because the enjoy it, they do it because they know that they can get rich from it (in game anway)!

Take for instance, EQ2. I watched a group corner the market on food and drink on my server. No matter how many food and drink makers their was on my server, when you went to buy some from the auction house, you almost always bought it at that groups prices. Anytime someone put up food and drink below what they charged, they always bought it all  up and repushed it with their prices. I watched a real life friend who was involved in this get stinking rich in the game while the casual player suffered because of the inflated prices. Sadly, EvE has probably the best player run economy of all the games I have played and they are almost as bad as the rest.

I know most people will not agree with me on this but I have always felt player run economies ruin the game for me. Just look at COH! All they have are recipes and invention drops and the prices are through the roof. Common stuff on my server is going for outragous prices now and dont even get me started on a purple rare drop. I could never afford it unless I did buy money from a farmer.

The only true solution to this is developers have to put a stop to player run economies. If they want an auction house or they have crafting in the game, they have to set the high and lows for the items, not the players. If you want to be a crafter because you like doing that, great, you will still make a profit, you just wont get stinking rich by controling the market. Crafters and adventures should IMO, make about the same amount of money per hour no matter what. When a developer gets that right, you will see a very healthy game and one that will be around for a long time.

 

I was so feeling this point of view man I appreciate all of your posts here. So great to read posts from people that play different MMOs and can give fresh perspectives from their point-of-view.

The real problem is that most MMORPG players tend to suck as consumers.   They complain about high prices but then refuse to use the most powerful tool a consumer has: not buying a product.  If that stack of copper ore is too expensive on the AH, you go farm it yourself.  If the speculators are buying up and repricing all the food, you go and make your own food.

An economy is based on the principle of 'give some to get some'.  You choose an activity you are good at and then trade the surplus output of that activity for the surplus output of someone else.  Everyone wins.

The trick to participating in an economy is to know your limits and nto act like a spoiled child who has to have everything now.  You pick what you really want and then figure out the best way to get it.  If the 'best way' is not fun then you figure out a goal you can accomplish doing fun stuff.  If all the goals are unfun, you find another game to play.

An item is only worth something if there is both a buyer and a seller who consider it worth that.  If an item is too expesive for you then you either do not need it badly enough or you think you are able to obtain it yourself at less of a cost (in items and time).

Originally posted by graggok

Originally posted by Vrazule

Sadly, most people tend to be greedy.  I also don't like player focused economies, because it leaves non-crafters hostage to crafters.  When we are dependent on them for potions, bandages, food and drink, equipment and so forth, it means we can't go and adventure whenever we want to, we have to schedule it around the time it takes to find someone to make them for you or to wait for them to finish the order.  In other words, you are far too dependent on others in order to have a fun gaming experience.

It's all well and good for those who like to craft, who ARE in the minority, but not so good for adventurers.  The whole process can be quite frustrating.  I experienced this in early Dark Age of Camelot.  This was before they started dropping decent equipment in dungeons and quests.  Back then, all of the good equipment that gave you an edge in combat was crafter made.  It was incredibly expensive and never available when you needed it and it completely removed one of the biggest incentives to adventuring, loot drops.

if you don't craft in an MMORPG then you are SERIOUSLY hindering yourself

Exactly.....And besides that, What MMO's have you been playing where you are "at the mercy of crafters"? I've play'd FFXI, WOW, Wizard101, Guildwars, Maple story... and i've NEVER been at the "mercy of crafters"

(And again on the point of not crafting and hindering yourself, thats like playing Halo and not using the rocket launcher ever, and then crying because you keep dying....just because you are not playing part of the game doesn't mean it should be changed)

Originally posted by Anciegher

 And by zero-sum I mean that there is a finite amount of resources in the game. 

 

One issue with this is if a player hordes resources and then quits/takes a long break. For this to work the resources that player has on him must somehow be redistributed back into the game world.

This would be intresting (take WOW for an example, like if Blizz said once a year they would put 1billion gold into the over all system. and no other gold would be generated till the next year)

Of course the obvouse problem with this is when they "pump" the economy alot of people will hord the gold while it is cheap and then re-inject it into to the market later on at a higher price. That and new players wouldn't be able to get gold from MOBs and so it would be harder at first

Originally posted by PatchDay

What are people thought's on player run economy?

Let's take a look at EVE Online which has one of the most advanced economies.

 

And like a real economy, over the years I have seen prices rise higher and higher for ships. I am now paying bout 55% more for tech 2 ships that I did previously. And recall- if you get this ship blown up you gotta go buy another. Ouch!

 

Where are people getting all this ingame money to buy this stuff????

 

IT's gotta be due to all these macros and cheats. I know in EVE, there is now a macro so advanced, it will farm everything for you and even hide your ship if another player might possibly attack.

 

I'm starting to think player run economy = GET SCREWED BY OTHER PLAYERS 24/7!

 

I guess for you WoW players the equivalent would be Auction House for rares. I dont know bout now but I remember pre-Battlegrounds we saw insane prices for tradeable rare Epics.

Really sucks that players can accumulate all this ingame money from hacks, cheats, farmers, etc. Ruins the game for other players indirectly and we dont even realize how bad we're all getting screwed over by cheaters

I think ingame economies can only be enjoyable for all players if they are properly regulated by the service provider.  Every economic system requires certain built in checks and balances to prevent things like unrestrained inflation or exploitation of the "have nots" by the "haves."

Hacks and cheats of course are a separate issue.  These give unfair advantages to players who use them regardless of whether or not there is an ingame economy.

A recent alternative gaming model favours the purchasing of virtual items from the service provider, via an online store, using real cash.  Unfortunately there are too few checks and balances in this system as well, since "purchasing" virtual items with real money is a relatively new technological reality.  Exploitation of the "have nots" by the "haves" in this case, however, has higher stakes, in that we're talking about real (not virtual) currency.

Originally posted by PatchDay

What are people thought's on player run economy?

Let's take a look at EVE Online which has one of the most advanced economies.

 

And like a real economy, over the years I have seen prices rise higher and higher for ships. I am now paying bout 55% more for tech 2 ships that I did previously. And recall- if you get this ship blown up you gotta go buy another. Ouch!

 

Where are people getting all this ingame money to buy this stuff????

 

IT's gotta be due to all these macros and cheats. I know in EVE, there is now a macro so advanced, it will farm everything for you and even hide your ship if another player might possibly attack.

 

I'm starting to think player run economy = GET SCREWED BY OTHER PLAYERS 24/7!

 

I guess for you WoW players the equivalent would be Auction House for rares. I dont know bout now but I remember pre-Battlegrounds we saw insane prices for tradeable rare Epics.

Really sucks that players can accumulate all this ingame money from hacks, cheats, farmers, etc. Ruins the game for other players indirectly and we dont even realize how bad we're all getting screwed over by cheaters

Sorry but How do I take this seriously? You have just made massive assumptions on everything in your post?

Who cares if prices are high? Just make your own stuff. plus if your too lazy to do that you just have to accept the prices for what they are, instead of rageposting because you want an item now but its too much gold lol.

Originally posted by Torik

The real problem is that most MMORPG players tend to suck as consumers.   They complain about high prices but then refuse to use the most powerful tool a consumer has: not buying a product.  If that stack of copper ore is too expensive on the AH, you go farm it yourself.  If the speculators are buying up and repricing all the food, you go and make your own food.

An economy is based on the principle of 'give some to get some'.  You choose an activity you are good at and then trade the surplus output of that activity for the surplus output of someone else.  Everyone wins.

The trick to participating in an economy is to know your limits and nto act like a spoiled child who has to have everything now.  You pick what you really want and then figure out the best way to get it.  If the 'best way' is not fun then you figure out a goal you can accomplish doing fun stuff.  If all the goals are unfun, you find another game to play.

An item is only worth something if there is both a buyer and a seller who consider it worth that.  If an item is too expesive for you then you either do not need it badly enough or you think you are able to obtain it yourself at less of a cost (in items and time).

Golden. :) An excellent post!

Originally posted by lugal

No point in trying to reason with somebody who is trying to push thier brand of MMO socialism. They will never be swayed with logic or facts. Best bet is to ignore thier drivel and post all your crafted items at inflated proces.

This, I gave up arguing when it became evident that the opposition is either a closet Maoist or just soo self centered that he is incapable of attaching value to someone elses time online.

An item is only worth something if there is both a buyer and a seller who consider it worth that. If an item is too expesive for you then you either do not need it badly enough or you think you are able to obtain it yourself at less of a cost (in items and time).

Excellent point something these clueless wonders might grasp if they had ever taken a real economics class someplace.

Last time (Not that there is a point), if you were talking about items you *needed* to play the game it would be a developer problem and something that game design needed to be changed to fix. You're not though, you are talking about luxury items to make your play faster or more fun and there is nothing "wrong" with you buying them. Nor is a crafters time worth "more" than yours, but it damn well is worth something which is the point you consistently seem to ignore. That negotiation of what the items go for on the open market IS the debate over how much that time spent is worth.

Now the main culprits here have basically confessed that what they really want are games without crafting, so fine; GO PLAY THEM.  Of course you also want no trading and to be handed whatever you want just because you want it; guess what? There are games for you too...they are called single player games with cheat codes.

The OP is talking about two concepts that he obviously doesn't understand, they are Inflation and Ponzi Schemes.  The former means that when there is too much currency and not enough actual backing for it, the price of goods and services goes up so that they have the same worth as they did when there was less currency.  The latter is basically finding loopholes, hiccups in financial laws, etc. which can essentially be looked at as Macroing and Hacking.  All of these things happen in real life every day.  Player run economies are just like every other economy out there.

At the same time, communist ideas never work in video games JUST like the way they don't work in real life.  Before you Marx lovers flame me, read a textbook some time about Russia, the current state of North Korea, and Cuba.

You want an example of a situation where a player is getting ripped off by another player?  When I sell a Fiery Sword in Guild Wars with below max stats and say to a new noob player "Hey, Want the same sword as Prince Rurik?" He says to me, "I only have 5 Platinum, will that be enough?"  Meanwhile I had been selling those swords for only 500 gold a piece all day.  For your info, 1plat = 1k gold.  If I also said that it had max stats, then made the sale, THAT would be getting ripped off.

Originally posted by graggok

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

Originally posted by graggok

I think that if you don't wanna go farm the item yourself  you  kind of deserve to get ripped off in a player run economy.  Like for WoW for example I need some trade skill items , now I have the skills necessary to go farm the items I want all by myself....but I am lazy and instead choose to buy the items from the auction from the guy that either Botted and got them or perhaps the player that legitamently went and farmed the items.

 

Buying from a botter or buying from a player is like buying vegetable from the store or getting them from a Fruit/vegetable stand on the side of the road.  So should the stand owner's lose out because a store is able to make the product more readily available.  So I guess what I am trying to say is "STOP QQ-ING AND L2FARM!" Lazy players are what makes player driven economies fail.

 

 

I have to partially disagree with this. yes to a point you are right but you are forgetting the greed that people have. Let me give you an example. In Vanguard, when people first started making boats, they were going for 25 gold at the time and let me tell you, Unless you were playing the buy em up and resell stuff at high prices gig, you as an adventurer was not any where near 25 gold at the time that you could actually use boats. So I talked to several crafters and found out what every component they needed was and I went out to gather them myself. It took me several days to get every item I needed so that the crafter wouldnt have to do anything but hit combine several times (It took about 30 minutes of combining to make the ship). Well, just in those few days it took me to gather the stuff I needed, Prices for ships had sored to almost 80 gold. I couldn't even get a person to make the ship when I furnished all the items! By that time, and this was just a couple days mind you, they wouldnt even combine them for less than 40 gold. 40 gold!!!! It would take me over 2 weeks to make that as an adventurer at that time. So, again, its not lazy players that drive economies to fail, its the greedy sob's that feel their time is worth 5 times more than everyone elses.

1 question.....what stopped you from creating your own.

The answer is simple: If i join a game several years after it's out, i am at a complete disadvantage as oppose to those who joined it when it began. I SHOULD NOT suffer because i started to play a game after it releases. If said game doesn't want to offer me the "same opportunities and playing field" then every other customers, then just shut the door and don't accept new subscribers.

The problem doesn't lie in the fact that you have to work for your stuff, it's the fact that you get punished simply for doing nothing wrong, and that is: Joining several years after others. So you need a system that will at least contribute to reduce the gap between old timers and new comers. This doesn't mean removing all the hard work those people have done. I'm all for having benefits for being a long timer and a first believer pioneer for your game. But making it so it becomes 10 times harder for a new player that might just have discovered the game and wish to play it simply isn't fair for that customer that pays the exact same amount of money for his subscription.

I could go on and on about how you build a bridge between old timers and new comers. But the point is that you need to stop calling people affected by such a system "whiners", because you're completely missing the point. I think all they want is to enjoy the game, and they aren't if the economy is so screwed up that it's slowing down their progression curve to a point they can't even afford mundane items because the market is controlled by ass-holes who think it's fun to ruin other people's experience.

Maybe the solution would be to simply put NPC items for the leveling process, and only have a player run economy while you reach max level and can compete on the same playing field. What gets me in a player base economy has never been the end game, but the rags you must accept to gear yourself with because the price is so retarded that you outlevel said gear in 5 hours while it would take 5 days to farm what's necessary to get some good stuff for that level.

Doesn't take a genius to understand that this is just plain wrong.

Originally posted by Seen_Justice

 

The answer is simple: If i join a game several years after it's out, i am at a complete disadvantage as oppose to those who joined it when it began. I SHOULD NOT suffer because i started to play a game after it releases. If said game doesn't want to offer me the "same opportunities and playing field" then every other customers, then just shut the door and don't accept new subscribers.

I don't understand. Someone started a year before you. had all that time to work hard to get gear, make money, etc. And you started today and you want to be equal to him? What, are you suggesting every few months the devs raise the amount of money for quests and drops at the lower levels, so new players make money faster?

You are not going to gain perfect equality with someone who has been playing longer than you unless either you are given some huge boon for being a latecomer, or they are penalized for playing the game longer than you. And how is this fair to them? Look, I've ben in that situation many times so I understand where you're coming from. But all the same, exactly where does you idea of fairness include giving you as much as someone who's been around longer and done more work, simply because you're a newbie and don't want to be behind?

Different styles, different mentalities, different strategies... oh, and here's the kicker - different games!

People play MMOs for different reasons, and we have different tastes to what we want to play, not to mention approaches to how we play. The beauty of it all is that there is a vast number of games out there that boasts to feed our gaming desires. However, when you pick out that game at the video store or download it to your computer, you accept that there will be negative gaming experiences. Any game with lots people, especially people that you are unfamiliar with, are going to have its rewards and challenges. Not to mention that sometimes technology fails us too.

The trick to taking it all in is not taking it personally; after all, it's just a game. Why let something that's intended to be enjoyable foul your mood? If it's really becoming unbearable, stop playing the game and switch to the dozens of other games whose marketers would be eager to take your time and money instead. If you've already invested a lot of time and energy into a game, then like some others have already mentioned, make friends or at least establish "business" relationships from people whose goals include enjoying gameplay. If you are really that bothered, then go back to regular RGPs where you won't have to deal with the negative side effects of MMOs.

Being a casual MMO gamer, the gaming experience is all about what you make of it, which is true for life too. If the community is truly in uproar, don't just complain about within the community, petition to developers for a change, even if it's limited to just one or two servers. While developers cannot and may not respond to every demand of their followers, taking the step towards making a change yields greater percentage of chance that it just might happen.

Being in a guild is very helpful in  a player run economy, in all games that I have played in player run enomy's me and my guildees would help eachother get the best stuff, all that was needed to craft what you wanted was the rare item if needed, but yeah if you were not in our guild and needed something crafted from us you would have to pay the going rate, this is almost an unwritten rule in most if not all mmo;'s ''GUILDEES PAY THE BARE COST ONLY, IF THAT''. If this is not the case in your guild I would find a different guild, if you are not in a guild and are paying top dollar for items then I would suggest6 joining a guild to help you go a bit easier on yer ingame wallet lol.

Originally posted by PatchDay

What are people thought's on player run economy?

Let's take a look at EVE Online which has one of the most advanced economies.

 

And like a real economy, over the years I have seen prices rise higher and higher for ships. I am now paying bout 55% more for tech 2 ships that I did previously. And recall- if you get this ship blown up you gotta go buy another. Ouch!

 

Where are people getting all this ingame money to buy this stuff????

 

IT's gotta be due to all these macros and cheats. I know in EVE, there is now a macro so advanced, it will farm everything for you and even hide your ship if another player might possibly attack.

 

I'm starting to think player run economy = GET SCREWED BY OTHER PLAYERS 24/7!

 

I guess for you WoW players the equivalent would be Auction House for rares. I dont know bout now but I remember pre-Battlegrounds we saw insane prices for tradeable rare Epics.

Really sucks that players can accumulate all this ingame money from hacks, cheats, farmers, etc. Ruins the game for other players indirectly and we dont even realize how bad we're all getting screwed over by cheaters

IN EvE you can get 600 million isk for plexing someone, plexing is the selling of a gametime card for isk, and this is all a legal transaction which is monitered by the csr's and what not.
 

of course folks macro farm in eve the MINING is boring and the endless grinding is BORING, in fact 99% of the game is boring. i macro farmed in eve as a way to make money to support my main toon and i used to let it run 23 hours a day it would log off when the servers went down and log back in when the servers came up, it owuld go out farm asteroids and return to my station and KEEP doing it over and over again.

The issue here is that i only used 1 account there are people in eve who have a lot of accounts all doing the same thing, it basically worked out that each 24 hour period i made about 15 million isk. Which isnt a drop in the ocean in eve terms as my ship was not great nor were my skills. But on the macro farming forums people were basically saying fully opted ships running 23/7 would turn over in excess of a billion isk or so couldnt remember if that was daily or weekly. But still a lot of isk.

Now the thing is which i think most EVE players get really upset over is this.

EVE is boring. yes thats right the space spreadsheet isnt fun, thats why folks macro as for being ripped off by player economies eve has the worst player run economy ever intermixed with scammers and spammers and constant scam attacks. In the end i left the game not because the game was boring (which it was really i was deluding myself) but because the comunity is garbage. its like a cess pit full of bank managers and used car salesmen. Intermixed with a few hard working peons for the big corporations. Eve online is a mirror to our world the difference is the Eve online Spreadsheet aplication has pretty graphics which keep people suckered into playing it. Even though its basically built to keep a few people at the top of the game.

to have player control economy.... must have system limits it. like cannot let player sell pass retricted price.

in lineage 2 to be able to get on mounts..... must be an ebayer cause thats the only way to obtain one.