i've noticed that some games are making the games we're playing easier for newcomers to games, but over the years some games online and not have become less challenging and more casual and more of a grinding treadmill. it's like they make games so easy that there is no reason to make teams/clan/guilds anymore, which takes away from the experience of a mmo.

i made a poll asking whether or not you like these new changes. Or maybe you feel there were no changes.

if oyu chose  7 & 8 explain.

Well, it seems like you answered your own question, but the reason why we don't want EASIER games is because it takes away from the most important gameplay aspect of MMOs: teamwork. As all the new MMOs come out and become faceroll easy, requiring little to no grouping and/or intelligent decision making, the community never creates those bonds that were created in the older MMOs such as Everquest (or, for a newer example, Final Fantasy XI). Without a community that is working together, what's the point of a massively multiplayer online game? We all might as well save ourselves some money and play single player RPGs without the monthly fees.

That gave me a headache, thank you.

Originally posted by ParkCarsHere

Well, it seems like you answered your own question, but the reason why we don't want EASIER games is because it takes away from the most important gameplay aspect of MMOs: teamwork. As all the new MMOs come out and become faceroll easy, requiring little to no grouping and/or intelligent decision making, the community never creates those bonds that were created in the older MMOs such as Everquest (or, for a newer example, Final Fantasy XI). Without a community that is working together, what's the point of a massively multiplayer online game? We all might as well save ourselves some money and play single player RPGs without the monthly fees.

There's a lot more to a good mmo than forced grouping.  People who think like you are the reason why mmos are in the terrible state they are in.  Thinking that everyone needs to play the same when the best mmos allow players to do what they enjoy.

Making a game easier...I'l answer with what i think.Do you know in tough games you get a sense of achievement from leveling,finding what you were looking for or finishing something you kept failing at? The exhiliration(didn't know how to spell) when a game is easy no excitement or achievement  in stuff like WoW it is easy to level so you are like whatever ill continue.You rush through all the gameplay you want to play for fun through.This being said too easy to get endgame material with nothing else making everything before endgame things more like work.Just using WoW as example 11 million subscribers quickest thing to think of.

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by ParkCarsHere

Well, it seems like you answered your own question, but the reason why we don't want EASIER games is because it takes away from the most important gameplay aspect of MMOs: teamwork. As all the new MMOs come out and become faceroll easy, requiring little to no grouping and/or intelligent decision making, the community never creates those bonds that were created in the older MMOs such as Everquest (or, for a newer example, Final Fantasy XI). Without a community that is working together, what's the point of a massively multiplayer online game? We all might as well save ourselves some money and play single player RPGs without the monthly fees.

 

There's a lot more to a good mmo than forced grouping.  People who think like you are the reason why mmos are in the terrible state they are in.  Thinking that everyone needs to play the same when the best mmos allow players to do what they enjoy.

Forced grouping is what made FFXI as fun as it is, SURE it has its downsides (such as long wait times for groups) but I hardly believe that its people who promote grouping are the reason that companies are creating these new games with 95% soloable content. Fact of the matter is, the greater the community interaction through teamwork, the greater the fun... games that are built on solo play promote players hating eachother unless they CANT do something without them. A sterling example of this is questing, in games that promote solo play or demote grouping (applying penalties to grouping such as exp) ; ex. Player A is out killing wombats for his quest, player B strolls by and is killing the same monsters for the same quest player A is. Player A starts tagging/claiming mobs in bulk causing both players to compete over pointless shit which eventually turns into anger through frustration. Crap like this hurts the community which is the heart and soul of an MMO. This is a typical reaction from the majority of a solo games playerbase, dont believe me try it for yourself.

 IMO It's good that the games are made easier for newcomes, BUT

I also think that the difficulty should raise quite fast after the start.. not too much so it doesn't feel like a complete different game, but the players shouldn't be pampered to the level cap. There shouldn't be any frustrating elements either, but I think that MMO's could be a lot better if there was more difficulty to them. I mean, suddenly you couldn't beat all of the quests on the first try?! Madness!

Then you could keep the rewards as they are these days, and it wouldn't even be instant gratification anymore.

Err.

It is as riddiculous to claim making a game easier is making it better as it is to claim the opposite.

Every player has three ranges of difficulty levels:

(a) Boredom. The game is that little challenging that the player doesnt feel challenged at all.

(b) Comfort. The game is challenging enough the player is kept entertained.

(c) Frustration. The game is that challenging, or even technically impossible to manage, that the player doesnt enjoy the game at all any more.

To make matters worse, it is not clear where the ideal game belongs to. In the middle of (b), with decent challenge, but also not too hard ? At the frontier between (b) and (c) ?

For example, the Griffon questline in Vanguard is definitely at the brick of (b) and (c) for me. It is endlessly long, it contains endless running around, it has riddiculously hard mobs in it (esp Akande) you cannot beat unless you are fully buffed with pretty much every buff in the game and have good gear and have 5 allies who need to know how to play their class, too, and even then you also need luck. In short, you can work weeks and months on one single damn bossmob. As a result, I wasnt happy at all when I finally got my hands on a Griffon. I wasnt even relieved any more. The most correct term was bored to death by the whole thing and not knowing why I started it in the first place, at all.

And there are players who simply dont enjoy being challenged, who prefer playing a game for social, story etc aspects.

With singleplayer games, you can offer players a difficulty slider. With MMOs, not so much (except you can offer people different servers). So best solution is probably to start easy and get harder the more you advance, thus inflicting a learning curve.

There is nothing wrong with some MMO’s being in easy mode. It is the ‘one size fits all’ mentality that so many of us object to.

In an effort to get as many subscribers as possible game companies seem to think one easy mode design template will fit all gamers. This is like expecting a sport game fan to like RPG’s just because it increases sales.

Being the greatest warrior, the best healer, the finest crafter, the most cunning diplomat all takes dedication. This is not a Big Brother MMO, we are not a success just because we log on to the game.

This is a good topic.

When discussing it do not forget that "Easy Mode" gameplay and "accessibility" are 2 different things.

I am all for easy to handle UI's but at the same time i am against automisations like "fast travel" or "auction halls".

With those two you take away an awful lot of "free" content. How many adventures on the route from the shire to rivendell have not happened because "fast travel" was used? How many people have not become friends over buying and selling armor from each other -  since that is done anonymous in an automatically functional auction hall.

For me that is two examples for "Easy mode" gaming. NPC's standing around automatically porting you or selling your stuff for you. In UO or EQ you had to interact with others who had the class with the power to port you (Druids and WIzzards) or move to a certain location where a player run market with lots of chat auctions was going on. Massive content. Fun and joy. Now you stand shoulder on shoulder towards an NPC and almost no one talks, everyone is browsing the stuff.

Downtime and death penalty are others - a dangerous corpse run was a rewarding game experience for many players. Needing help with it was interacting with others -> meeting new people -> fun.

Now you beam yourself to the next theme park attraction, check who else needs quest XY, win it or fail the difference (penalty) is little - and move on.

The ironic part is that so many find certain things i listed only frustrating but taking them all out made the gaming experience frustratingly boring for even more players.

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Originally posted by ParkCarsHere

Well, it seems like you answered your own question, but the reason why we don't want EASIER games is because it takes away from the most important gameplay aspect of MMOs: teamwork. As all the new MMOs come out and become faceroll easy, requiring little to no grouping and/or intelligent decision making, the community never creates those bonds that were created in the older MMOs such as Everquest (or, for a newer example, Final Fantasy XI). Without a community that is working together, what's the point of a massively multiplayer online game? We all might as well save ourselves some money and play single player RPGs without the monthly fees.

 

There's a lot more to a good mmo than forced grouping.  People who think like you are the reason why mmos are in the terrible state they are in.  Thinking that everyone needs to play the same when the best mmos allow players to do what they enjoy.

People play MMORPGs for lots of different reasons. YOUR reasons for playing are not mine. I could say there's a lot more to a good mmo than collecting gear (shinys). But I'd only be speaking for myself, becasue that is the ENTIRE reason some people play MMORPGs.

I play MMORPGs for the "forced" grouping, which IMO means grouping that is worthwhile, not grouping in a single player game that is pointless, and not satisfying as a game mechanic.

It's an incredibly difficult concept to explain to solo'ers but it's really, and truly NOT about forcing you to group, it's about designing a game mechanic which is fun for me.

Once you tinker with that game mechanic to the point grouping is not necessary, I find the grouping is no longer FUN and that's what the game should be about.

YES< I can still group in a solo game, but NO it is not fun any more because it's pointless, and no longer requires team work. It's like the difference between basket ball on a court with two teams and just walking out on the court to practice shooting some hoops by yourself.

Now imagine you take the basket ball game, and change the rules. You say, well, you can pass the ball around as a team if you WANT to, and I'm NOT stopping you so don't complain about the rule change, BUT, you can just walk on the court all by yourself with a basketball, and no one is allowed to take it from you, and you can just shoot whenever you like, and score the same exact points.

But it's still EXACTLY like playing baskeball, because I'll LET you work as a team if you WANT to. If you dont WANT to, then baskeball isn't really fun is it? Cause I'll LET you play as a team if you want to, but I'm NOT FORCING you to do it.

FOr me, it's just like that. SUre, i could still play as a team in the game, but allowing the solo play has destroyed the feeling of accomplishment in playing the game. Not about FORCING you to play the game as a team, but about ME enjoying the game that requires team work.

People need to understand the difference between easy and intuitive, difficult and time consuming, complex and frustrating.  If a FUN expeprience needs to be overly-complicated and frustrating, might as well get out of the AAA videogame market.  Niche is your home now=) 

A game can still be hard and intutive and fun.  But I get the feeling certain MMO players connect difficulty with confusing, unfocused, long, time consuming grinds.  Those days are over.  Easy to get into and hard to master is good design.

WAR for example was a game made so easy, the experience was degraded...one step too far.

Depends on what you mean by easier.

Easier in MMO terms usually refers to the ammount of time something takes or the punishment for losing or the ammount of people required to do something.

But I don't consider any of those things to be difficult in the first place.

MMOs I don't think were ever difficult games, they have always been the most easy games to me.

But in reference to other types of games, I think it is when nothing is percieved as a challenge any more, if you have to go out of your way to lose then it is too easy.

People are kind of missing the mark with this whole Solo vs. Grouping stuff.

Soloing can be easy or hard.
Grouping can be easy or hard.

Usually in games they are two separate things. Oftentimes against entirely different mobs (elites vs. normal.)

All that matters is the types of mobs you can face at any given level, and the challenge they provide. Ideally (though it's not common in MMOs yet) you can face a spread of challenge from easy to insane, at any given level, while soloing or grouping.

COH manages to provide this at all levels, whereas WOW is at a point where soloing is very nearly the only gameplay until you reach max level, at which point it offers varied difficulty but really fails to succeed at it (there's no hard solo quests, and hard 5-man dungeons are too easy; and only recently did a quasi-difficult raid exist.)

Actually thinking about WOW's difficulty that way reminds me of what I feel was Nintendo's big mistake. Nintendo basically created a generation of gamers with the NES and SNES, but rather than growing up alongside the demographic it created it continued to market to kids with the N64 and GC systems, losing customers to Sony and later MS. Nintendo has done a great job surviving despite that (particularly by creating kid-focused handhelds) but I can only imagine how successful they might've been if they'd continued evolving alongside their playerbase.

WOW's own raids were genuinely difficult at some points, and a certain sub-demographic of players played the game specifically for them. But with WOTLK that challenge disappeared which meant those players didn't really have anything to do. Now I doubt Blizzard's mistake will hurt them anywhere near as bad as Nintendo's mistake, but I could still imagine them losing some players over it.