I apologize if this is considered off-topic: it was addressed to these forums, and I could not find where else to put it, as I am not recruiting anyone with this post, but asking for developer and poster advice.

I've seen nothing but negative comments through this forum, and it seems like this forum is not about MMORPG development, but how MMORPGs can't be developed.

So let's talk about this, without the people saying that without connections to people in the industry, you won't get anywhere.

Without the people saying that it's impossible to move your idea forward, or that anyone's already thought of it.

People posting ideas here could easily have it scalped by one of these 'connected' developers.  The people here talk about it being cutthroat in the industry, right as they tell you how impossible it is.  Well, take a look at what they say!  I am here, DETERMINED to learn, and I will NOT be disheartened by those who would keep me down.  My game idea will get made.

I do not think it should be easy.  That is one truth that is here.  I've already spent 2 years trying to get in, and only now am getting somewhere that I am happy with.  I spent 15 months learning 3ds Max, and found a large amount of it's ins and outs.  I spent a year looking for work in a city where it was dying.  Seattle's development industry folded in half when the recession hit, and all the connections I had found lost their jobs.  Aside from that, I am also a technical artist; unable to specialize, but extremely tactical in my approach to not just 3d art, but game design in general.  Technical Artists, by the way, are near impossible to market, without knowing someone in the industry.

So I've had skill, I've had ideas, and I've had connections.  They got me no where, and it was half me, half the environment.

So what do I do?  Well, I've found that as a technical artist, I know that everyone around me is better at one specific part of 3d art.  Yet I know with my guidance, they could be better.  And this had me realize that I'd perform better as a coach rather than a player.  But it expanded, and my final desire to design is where I'd love to go.  Art management to game design wasn't a large jump.  I've done management of people for 3 and a half years, and I seem to be good at it, albeit not in art.

So I come here, because I've no where else to turn right now.  There is no work where I live (seriously, all classifieds in Seattle for game art is in Vancouver BC or North Cali,) and yet, my creative nature is burning more than ever.  I've spent the last 5 weeks doing nothing but working on my pride-and-joy game concept, and I've loved every moment of it.  30 pages so far.  Arial 10.  Single space. 1 inch margins.

And I say it here and now, this game   will  be  made.  

I am 26 now, and probably have 60 years go to.  I am a patient man, but I am here looking for aid on getting it made sooner.  The only thing I've come up with as a real solution is to make it with people I find to help, as a hobby, with some personal investment and a lot of time.  Maybe I'll get in with a publisher to fund the idea, and give me people to boss around.  Maybe I won't, and maybe I'll just end up doing it and distributing it online, or find some other avenue.  I'd also love suggestions on protecting my ideas legally, while being able to show them to others.  What are my legal options to protect what's mine?

So help me out with advice, if you would.  But don't try to stop me.  No one can, because I won't.

And to all the others out there like me...if you really want this, nothing will stop you, either.

Originally posted by Turel_Azure

People posting ideas here could easily have it scalped by one of these 'connected' developers. 

 Maybe I'll get in with a publisher to fund the idea, and give me people to boss around. 

I'd also love suggestions on protecting my ideas legally, while being able to show them to others.  What are my legal options to protect what's mine?

I encourage you to move forward with your idea. Create a prototype. Create it in GameMaker or RealmCrafter. Hell, make a board game out of it. Create a tangible or working version of it even at its most basic level.

Why?

Because your idea isn't worth the paper you wrote it on, but a prototype or demo will get some people's attention. If nothing else, it shows people you are serious about it. Add to that, you can actually see if the idea even works or is, dare I say... fun.

I've noticed as well, that the environment is always bleak around here when it comes to an indy developer trying to get a nibble of the MMO pie. The truth is, most of the kids here, have a broken perception of success. They think if an MMO doesn't break one million subscribers, it's a failure. And that's for a commercial MMO! Since Indy MMOs use a much smaller budget, the success margin is much larger. Having 100-200 paying customers for your game can be a success depending on your budget and the ultimate goal of the game.

I'm attempting to develop my own on almost entierly free tools. I'll be building it on the RealmCrafter Pro Engine. Id' recommend checking it out. Version 2.3 is nearing release. RC contains many common, built-in MMO features that gives you a head start in getting your game out the door. Not to mention a very positive and helpful community. Either way, I second the post above me, get a version for your game out there, in any way possible. Start small and build up.

And remember, making tons of money doesn't always mean success. I've heard many professionals say that they have always been happier working on their own projects and making small amounts of money, than they ever were working in big corporations.

If you love it, do it.

Really appriciate the feedback. 

My writing the idea is for the ability to communicate them.  Once I find a reliable way to protect them, I'll try and share them with people.  As for visual, I don't know if I alone can design what I want to do, as I have no programming ability....but maybe with the toolsets, since it is built on existing technology.  The real issue is that my design is starting with the core gameplay mechanics, and moving outward from that.  I'm not saying that story and setting aren't important, they are equally so, but a game isn't a game without fun gameplay.  And the core alteration of the systems I am going for may not be supported well by these engines.

I don't know though, so I will spend time checking it out.

Also, I'm not worried about money.  I know a bit about business working in management for 3 and a half years, and there are MANY business practicies that game publishers do not use that would do them a lot of favors.  Practices that would easily lead to more money, because MMOs are competitive, and all of that depends on how the customer feels while and after playing your product. 

And if I cannot make a small version, would a visual demo of the mechanics do anything?  I easily could make videos using 3ds Max animation tools to illustrate points on the systems.  I simply thought my ideas would flow better just by writing them, initially.

Maybe someone can correct this if it is wrong, but can't you protect ideas using certified mail?  That is once you are near complete with the idea, send yourself a copy using certified mail and never open it.  That might not give you a lot of leverage to sue for infringement, but it should serve to protect you if/when the game is built as prior art (or some BS like that).

Oh yeah Jobless connections aren't always a bad thing.  They often spread to other companies, and as long as you stay friendly it just makes your net that much wider.

Ideas and Tables have nearly no form of protection from others, at least protection meant to be affordable to the average person or small company.  The plus side is that ideas by themselves are nearly useless, and anyone that could act on or steal ideas have more than they can act on already(much less acting on someone else's).   However the advantage of getting your idea "reviewed" by a handful of people is worth more than what I consider a "small" risk, and if I do find the idea used in a game I'd realize that it's just someone else trying to implement an archtypal idea like "apprenticeship" or similar into a game(I also have the advantage of seeing the idea implemented so I can evovolve it from there).

Originally posted by ghstwolf

Maybe someone can correct this if it is wrong, but can't you protect ideas using certified mail?  That is once you are near complete with the idea, send yourself a copy using certified mail and never open it.  That might not give you a lot of leverage to sue for infringement, but it should serve to protect you if/when the game is built as prior art (or some BS like that).

I believe you are thinking about copyrighting a written work like a book or music sheets. Ideas by themselves are worthless, and the only thing you'd have in that envelope was a reason to kick yourself once someone else came out with it.

Originally posted by ghstwolf

Maybe someone can correct this if it is wrong, but can't you protect ideas using certified mail?  That is once you are near complete with the idea, send yourself a copy using certified mail and never open it.  That might not give you a lot of leverage to sue for infringement, but it should serve to protect you if/when the game is built as prior art (or some BS like that).

Oh yeah Jobless connections aren't always a bad thing.  They often spread to other companies, and as long as you stay friendly it just makes your net that much wider.

That's called the "Poor Man's Copyright".  Technically speaking, as soon as you put something down on paper, it is your copyright.  However, having something copyrighted is not a terribly difficult or expensive process. 

To the OP:  First thing I would do is create a Game Design Document.  If you need an outline or some direction with that, let me know and I'll PM or email you.  Secondly, get your GDD copyrighted, then you can either use that as a framework to sell your idea to like-minded individuals (your team) or you can try to sell it to a studio.  A GDD is a good start, though.

And since there's no way to copyright my idea, so it sounds, I'll definately not be sharing it yet, save maybe through PMs.

As for Design Document Format, was this the link? http://www.gamasutra.com/features/19991019/ryan_01.htm

If you have more, I'd love information.  Go ahead and PM me.  But what I'm curious about is if there really is something I can do to protect my work.  If a copyrighted GDD is enough, great.  If there is a way for me to make my own NDA, or something, or a legal agreement, that would be even better.

But it sounds like what I'm trying to protect, at least until I can get it made or get paid for it, is a set of combat mechanics that are very applicable to current tech MMORPGs.  I don't want to try and submit it anywhere without having it be mine.  If I show a company, how do I know they won't just use it anyway, and leave me behind without any credit for my effort?  That's what I'm looking for.

Originally posted by Turel_Azure

 If I show a company, how do I know they won't just use it anyway, and leave me behind without any credit for my effort?  That's what I'm looking for.

The scenario you're presenting - pitching an idea to a game developer, them going ga-ga for it and either paying you for it or bringing you on board to head up a team to implement it in a game - is really about the least possible way to ever see your idea come to fruition. I'm not saying that to discourage you. I'm telling you the reality of the situation.

As far as keeping your idea a secret so that no one 'steals it,' you're going in the wrong direction there, as well. Post your idea to a forum or discuss it with others, get input, and then collaboratively refine it and work out the bugs. Think about it... in order to find out if your idea works or is even remotely fun, you're going to have to build it and have it playtested. Is it your contention that the idea, in its current form, is perfectly balanced, wonderfully fun and free from bugs? There's always the chance it is, but you'd be hard pressed to pitch that to anyone since almost everyone thinks their idea is perfect, air-tight and fun  when it's just on paper.

Here's some suggestions for turning that idea into something marketable or usable:

• Post the idea and get input on it
• Collaborate with others on refining it
• Use the feedback to make it more fun and engaging
• Build it as a board game, PnP game,or some other basic playable form. You ned no special skills or extra software to do that. Well, other than a reasonable understnading of game design, that is.
• Play it out with friends, family, co-workers and get their input

Even just doing some of those steps can move you leaps and bounds ahead of where you are now.

This is like the 3rd thread this week saying that MMORPG.com is full of nay saying jerks who don't know how to be positive.

I think that a lot of people just havn't been paying attention, This website is no different from any other medium.  Go ahead and look on IMDB or any other forums and you'll see half of the people complaining and not offering anything constructive.

Complaining has been a passtime of the internet population since 1982.

Nothing new here.

 Now here's the hard part to hear. If you are working on this alone and you have little experience in game developement (wiriting down ideas is not experience) than you are not going to make a ground-breaking MMO. I don't mean to discourage, I'm just giving you the truth.

When I said start small, that means starting modest as well. Sure, you could find a team, but lacking MMO organization skills (wiriting down ideas is not organizing MMO development) and money to pay this team, your results aren't going to be much better. MMO development takes experience. I wanted my game to be amazing and everything I ever wanted, too. But, sooner or later, you're going to have to face a harsh reality just as I did. You can't always get what you want. Sometimes, you need to make tough decisions. The lesser of two evils. Sometimes, you just need to settle with a modest game. If you love game development and you're passionate about bringing your game to life, you can come to terms with this.

Having an amazing idea that will find it's niche into the industry, doesn't mean jack shit if you don't have the tools, or the man power to get there. As I said, start small. Build from the ground up. Gain the experience you need and someday, you might just find yourself with those tools and a dedicated team to bring your game into fill swing. Remember, you can update the game. You can make more than one version of it. You need patience.

Also, If we don't know you're plan for these "core mechanics", how do expect anyone to help you find the right engine to build them in? You're not going to be working with the Hero Engine or Big World Tech (If you're asking for MMO advice here), so why doom yourself to failure before you even start, with statements like, "And the core alteration of the systems I am going for may not be supported well by these engines."? Assuming you mean smaller, Indy engines. As I said, you may need to humble your idea if you want to see it come to life. And you might not. I don't know, you're keeping secrets.

You have two other options. One's going to school for a field relavant to game development and work your way up a ladder (be careful the first few steps can be years apart). Then once you're up, and you have close to a decade of game development experience, and success to build on, you will be able to lead a project.

The other, is to build your own corporation from the ground up. This will most likely require the same eduacation as the other option. Not doing so, will require all the steps about "modest game development" I spoke of before. You also need to have a working demo of your game to pitch it to a publisher for funding. Many middleware engines offer demo licenses. But you need a company, and a team (most teams start small, sometimes as little as 3-5 people). And no, showing them a rendered movie of the things you want, will not work. It needs to be a real-time demo. They need to know you're capable of making a game before they give you a lot of money to create one.

All of these are achievable with varying difficulty and waiting time before working on your game. I hope this helps you. You asked us to "get real", so I did. I wish you good luck, and hope that your dream game materializes in your future.

Turel_Azure i give you two thumbs ups for what you said. There does tend to be a large amount of negative comments. But sometimes its for the best. You need to hear the good and bad. Now im not saying i like people saying negative stuff cause i HATE it. Its like someone stabbing ya with a knife when they say it. I think that i also have ideas for some great video games. However i am just a casual gamer. I dont have any of the skills that you posses. The only thing i could think of to say is to go try to build your world with realcrafter. Just try it out. Thats what im doing. Anyways man keep on trying to nurture your idea and i would love to see it on a shelf  in bestbuy/walmart someday. Keep up all your hard work man and it will pay off. That pretty much goes for every avenue that you work/train in.

P.S (I would play your demo if you wanted someone too..lol) 

Mequellios, I get the feeling you didn't fully read my initial post.

I did go to school for an aspect of game development, and I learned 3d art and Animation.  I finished it with high marks, and was basically dubbed a technical artist by my teacher.  But, I have not had the good fortune of finding work in my area, which is supposed to be an okay one for game developers (Seattle, WA).  It would have helped if most of them stayed open through this recession hitting.

Also, the MMO concept is not my only idea, nor is it the one I'd hope to start with.  And when I say the engine won't support it, I'm referring to RealmMaker, which I tried.  I got a tip on Game Maker 7 just for a proof-of-concept, and I'm working on learning that now.  A good point was made, considering it's game design:

Use the Game Maker to make your core game alive.  If it's fun without fancy 3d graphics, you should have a winner.

You repeated this goal, so it's one I plan to work on.  Shooting for something OTS with sprites, or an isometric.  I may start making a more basic demo that's just a final-fight style. 

And yes, you're right, I would need a team, but I'm not at that point yet.  I made this post to find out a way to get started since GETTING A JOB didn't work out.  Heh.  And hell, I am still looking, and maybe I'll get work in a local studio while I'm working on this.

As for engines, I'm most interested in the modern engines that are easy to use, which instantly pulls me to Unreal3, which I'm more familiar with than others.  It's the closest to what I know: 3ds Max.

If you "just" need a job you can always look into other digital media outlets like advertising.   I know some game programmers have probably gone back to the business sector.

Originally posted by Turel_Azure

Mequellios, I get the feeling you didn't fully read my initial post.

 

I did go to school for an aspect of game development, and I learned 3d art and Animation.  I finished it with high marks, and was basically dubbed a technical artist by my teacher.  But, I have not had the good fortune of finding work in my area, which is supposed to be an okay one for game developers (Seattle, WA).  It would have helped if most of them stayed open through this recession hitting.

 

Also, the MMO concept is not my only idea, nor is it the one I'd hope to start with.  And when I say the engine won't support it, I'm referring to RealmMaker, which I tried.  I got a tip on Game Maker 7 just for a proof-of-concept, and I'm working on learning that now.  A good point was made, considering it's game design:

Use the Game Maker to make your core game alive.  If it's fun without fancy 3d graphics, you should have a winner.

You repeated this goal, so it's one I plan to work on.  Shooting for something OTS with sprites, or an isometric.  I may start making a more basic demo that's just a final-fight style. 

 

And yes, you're right, I would need a team, but I'm not at that point yet.  I made this post to find out a way to get started since GETTING A JOB didn't work out.  Heh.  And hell, I am still looking, and maybe I'll get work in a local studio while I'm working on this.

 

As for engines, I'm most interested in the modern engines that are easy to use, which instantly pulls me to Unreal3, which I'm more familiar with than others.  It's the closest to what I know: 3ds Max.

I second the post above me. You might need to look for smaller, freelance jobs like advertising (which is a big one) or if you're up for it, low-budget films. Along with that, you can make your own animated models and sell them online on a site like TurboSquid. Do this to fund your project if funding is needed.

And it wasn't quite clear to me, what your education was (it sounded like something slighty unrelated to game development directly), so I assumed none for the point fo the post. Apologies for that.

All in all, it comes down to getting a version of your game created. You won't need a very big team to get started. You can begin by yourself if you need to. Engine hopping can be exausting, but there should be something you can use out there. Another engine you could look at, if you haven't heard of it already, is Torque

Good Luck.

I know I'm going back down to 3 stars for saying this.... but nobody has to put any of this lightly. People who are actively trying to get in the industry will tell you how hard it is to even get an interview. If you just send someone an idea [they will not open it, and will most likely return to sender]. They are too afraid of the legal implications if they ever release a product in any way similar to what was sent to them, even if completely unrelated and the sender flips out and threatens to sue. The only thing they will a accept is a "reel" or playable demo, otherwise you need a face-to-face (w/ accompanied NDA) or the people you are dealing with are either scam artists, other people who "don't quite get it" and are trying to make thier own game with absolutley no knowledge on how to do so,  or playing a joke on you. It's not pretty, and it doesn't need sugarcoating.

All you can do it be die-hard serious about it and use your ideas as a pedestal in getting noticed. You are not likely to ever have any game you devised up to now be made - instead it tends to get your foot in the door and then the devs want to see you start from scratch and work with their team on a new project. You may get to make it years down the line once you make a name for yourself, but in the beginning stages you will be making other people's games, or collabing - that is what a GD's job [is]. If you go into it with the high hope that you are going to be king on day one, you are probably going to completely give up hope on that dream since it's impossible unless you have a prior history as an award-winning writer or [any] kind of celebrity.

Sorry it has to be put like that, but most people are totally trying to keep your hopes up while I'm trying to make sure your hopes don't hit too goddamn high. Aim realistically.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

This is like the 3rd thread this week saying that MMORPG.com is full of nay saying jerks who don't know how to be positive.

~When it comes to the games section ya, dev corner is for bright-eyed potential game designers who need to meet a realist. Most everything in here is people's game ideas, or a bastardized concept of an existing IP in MMO form (I'm not a fan of IP jumping). People get the right leads, good input, or a swift kick from the real world.

As I stated before, I got about 60 years left in me to get it made.

I'm not too picky about what I need to do to get there.  I'll kill somebody, sure.  ;-)

Point is, with my local market being garbage so much (advertising is looking for illustration majors...Seattle has a TON OF THEM.  They don't often go for 3d artists, sadly.  And the few I've seen are pretty shoddy at best [craptastic UVW]).

For now, though, I've gotten enough help from some people here to at least move in the next direction, and with enough time I'll probably be back with more to show.

In the meantime, I'm going to try and find a way to share the concept comfortably with the folks here.  That is definately something I could still use help with, as I'd LOVE to share it with people, but I simply must have the ability to make sure that my work is protected and identified as mine if discussed at all.

I do question how safe or unsafe it is to advertise yourself through your work, as in give up your guts on projects to get seen. I figure reputation means far more than anything in the industry, so a game being made with a single guy claiming the idea was stolen can completely gum up the works and that team's credability. Investors become wary of it, since who is going to throw money at a guy that gets his ideas through complete plagerism. There is always the chance one of your mechanics might leak into someone else's draft, but that is the way of the game industry - influence and imitation. Like an above poster said, you will always be impressed with one guy's setup, adopt it and improve upon it. Then that cycles around repeatedly, and until someone steals your works in terms of mechanics [and] setting - then you haven't been ripped off. I just wish people had the decency to throw out names in the special credits for the inspiration.

double-posted on accident.

Originally posted by Turel_Azure

Really appriciate the feedback. 

 

My writing the idea is for the ability to communicate them.  Once I find a reliable way to protect them, I'll try and share them with people.  As for visual, I don't know if I alone can design what I want to do, as I have no programming ability....but maybe with the toolsets, since it is built on existing technology.  The real issue is that my design is starting with the core gameplay mechanics, and moving outward from that.  I'm not saying that story and setting aren't important, they are equally so, but a game isn't a game without fun gameplay.  And the core alteration of the systems I am going for may not be supported well by these engines.

 

I don't know though, so I will spend time checking it out.

 

Also, I'm not worried about money.  I know a bit about business working in management for 3 and a half years, and there are MANY business practicies that game publishers do not use that would do them a lot of favors.  Practices that would easily lead to more money, because MMOs are competitive, and all of that depends on how the customer feels while and after playing your product. 

 

And if I cannot make a small version, would a visual demo of the mechanics do anything?  I easily could make videos using 3ds Max animation tools to illustrate points on the systems.  I simply thought my ideas would flow better just by writing them, initially.

Here's what you need to do:

Create a document that clearly and definitely lays out what your game is in detail. Name it, even if the name is just a placeholder. Make certain the document looks and feels professional and get it notarized. Then have an NDA drafted in paper that covers your specific IP (intellectual property). Almost any business lawyer should be able to work this up for you and there are some websites you can go through as well.

Be absolutely certain of the laws in each state where investors/companies are based. Before you show anybody ANYTHING you make them sign your NDA in writing with a witness and have it notarized, BEFORE showing them anything. Once all that is in place only give out a few nibbles during your conversation or if you feel confident you understand the law and your NDA is actionable should they breach it then then speak freely. Then if that individual/s breech your specific NDA you have they're ACTUAL signature on a legal, notarized and witnessed document. Depending on state law your NDA should be binding since these things are used for just about anything.

If you have multiple-meetings with people then don't change any of your features or the title of your IP without re-drafting your NDA to accomodate for those changes. If you re-draft make sure they sign it and you get it notarized again before continuing. It may help if you have an NDA that's word to also bind -you-. So that they know you aren't going to go shopping around while in talks.

Also make certain your NDA is worded to make sure that if negotians for terms are ended then the NDA is still in effect.

Basically you want to make certain that anybody you talk to has signed a binding document so they can't stab you in the back. And if they do you want to be certain you can kick their asses in court.

If you're really serioues about protecting yourself you need to find a business lawyer.

PS: Incorporate yourself before doing any of the above. An LLC is all you need really, costs about 200-300 dollars. A corporate NDA has far more standing in court than an individual.

Actually, I may have a way around that (cheap, I know, but my father is a WA state lawyer and notary).  The LLC idea is definately interesting.  I think part of the issue is that it sounds like an NDA cannot be signed without a witness, which means trouble for sharing it over the internet, which is really a goal I have here.   I know I'm sounding like a jackass here talking about an idea that nobody's seen yet, and trust me, I want to back up my paranoia by showing you folks a good idea.  I just want to get to that point.  And I actually did give it a working title name already, thankfully.  Really good advice.

I wouldn't hang my hat on an NDA.  I know in my state you can pretty much only sue for damages, and if you are not making money,  it will be hard to "win".  

Good luck.

Even if it won't win in court, if it doesn't get completely thrown out most companies are content to settle out of court just to avoid the flak. It's the main reason they won't read or steal ideas in the first place. The only people that would blatantly rip you of are chodes from this forums that have no clue about how to get a game off the ground, nor will they ever find investors or survive the flak you could give them for being a thief. If a big time company is too afraid to steal from you, while a one-in-a-million dickface nobody who can't do anything with it would be likely to, then what are you afraid of?

Originally posted by GTwander

 It's the main reason they won't steal ideas in the first place.

The main reason no one would steal from him is because he has nothing worth stealing. That's not a disparaging remark about the person, rather a realistic assessment of the value of 'a great idea'.