Originally posted by ummax

Originally posted by Ginaz

Originally posted by ummax

Originally posted by tillamook

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Second, don't you really think that the problems in SWG were a broken release, complete revamps to a live game and bait and switch allegation concerning the last expansion?  Um, did y'all miss the significance of those events?

These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.

Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.

 

I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
 

 

I agree they have learned their "lesson" as it were long ago which is why many subscribers have returned.    There is always going to be a section of the original "angry disgruntled vets" that will never be pleasable.     It was long ago time for the companies involved to move on and they have.     The new bioware product is not being designed with these vets in mind its being designed with a larger audience in mind.   Its also for obvious reasons being designed with KOTOR stand alone followers in mind.  

 There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this.  There is nothing SOE, LA or Bioware can do to change this.   

SOE reinvented itself awhile back now and the project bioware and LA are working on is going to be a totally different animal to the now very old product known as SWG.   

I don't really have a problem with your main points, but please, for the love of God, don't keep repeating that same old tired claim that "many subscribers have returned".  It just isn't true, unless your definition of "many" is somehow different then mine.

 

If i were speaking of only one game designed 5 years ago or more really now I would see your point, but they have an entire new line of stuff coming out and have in fact reinvented themselves and in a big way and many subscribers that left the old sony have in fact returned but not necessarily to play SWG.    I'm not sure how or why anyone would have trouble with such a statement but anyhow feel free.  Its probably the only time I have stated it and its a result of seeing a new generation of products immerging built in a completely different way that in some cases dont even obey the age old tired formula that games like EQ, EQ2, and WOW were built on.  

I don't really understand your response so I'm just going to say that, to me, the claim that "many subscribers have returned" implies thousands of former players came back and stuck around for a significant amount of time, not just for a month or the vet trial thingy.  If thats what your implying, it just isn't true.

I'd like to clarify why I think Mr. Nichols comments about what he's learned from SWG might open old wounds:

Consider the following statement:

 " I think in the past, what we probably made was the Uncle Owen experience as opposed to the Luke experience. We needed to deliver more of the Star Wars heroic and epic feeling to the game." (John Smedley). Smed said this as part of his rationale for forcing the NGE on us.

Very unfortunately, and I'm sure unintentionally, Mr. Nichols from Bioware used nearly the same words to explain what he thinks he has learned from SWG. If you want to talk about lessons to learn from SWG, paraphrasing comments made earlier by John Smedley to justify the NGE is probably not the best way to go imo.

I think this was an unintentional gaff on the part of Mr. Nichols, and I hope that if he realizes this, he'll be able to respond in some helpful manner.  Really, again, in light of all the bad feelings, not talking about SWG at all in the context of his new MMO is probably the best approach I think.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I'd like to clarify why I think Mr. Nichols comments about what he's learned from SWG might open old wounds:

Consider the following statement:

 " I think in the past, what we probably made was the Uncle Owen experience as opposed to the Luke experience. We needed to deliver more of the Star Wars heroic and epic feeling to the game." (John Smedley). Smed said this as part of his rationale for forcing the NGE on us.

Very unfortunately, and I'm sure unintentionally, Mr. Nichols from Bioware used nearly the same words to explain what he thinks he has learned from SWG. If you want to talk about lessons to learn from SWG, paraphrasing comments made earlier by John Smedley to justify the NGE is probably not the best way to go imo.

I think this was an unintentional gaff on the part of Mr. Nichols, and I hope that if he realizes this, he'll be able to respond in some helpful manner.  Really, again, in light of all the bad feelings, not talking about SWG at all in the context of his new MMO is probably the best approach I think.

 

If you're going to attack people for things they say let's try this and you can pick it apart:

Those who have read my posts in the past have come to know me for someone who has been, shall we say, somewhat critical of the changes brought to our game. I have been quite passionate at times, and the discussion of things has often gotten heated.

I have noticed in the past two Chapters that this game seems to be making a turning under the guidance of Blixtev and Deadmeat, and, after this past weekend, I am more optimistic than I have ever have been about the game, the staff, and the future.

A few weeks ago, I recieved a VERY surprising e-mail from Ashlanne of SOE. I found that I was being invited, all expenses paid, out to Las Vegas for the SOE Influencers Summit, and then, welcome to enjoy the weekend of Fanfaire as well. I was a bit weirded out at first, after all, as people know, I, in the past, have been no fanboy, in fact, I've been downright contentious and a voice of opposition. Not being one to turn down a free trip to Vegas, I readily accepted.

Now, much of what went on at the Summit was under NDA, and as we all know, that means in that sense, what happened in Vegas stays in Vegas. I can share that I learned a great deal of how SOE operates, and the present and future of quite a few of their games, our own beloved SWG as well. On that front, all I can say is, I am pleased. It seems things are now finally going well for this game, and thankfully, it seems to be paying off too, which means, the good things we have seen will continue.

I was given a rare opportunity to share my feelings and ideas, and I think my contribution to the summit was constructive.

Many of the people posting from the FanFaire are sharing what went on in the various panels, and I'll leave that to them. When I get over my exhaustion and such, I'll post any thoughts I have on those things after some more coffee and food, and maybe a good night's sleep.

What I do want to speak of is of a more personal nature, but since it involves people I have been public about my negative feelings, it's time for me to be public with my positive feelings. Here we go, in no particular order except my stream of consciousness...

Virrago. He is totally cool. A real mellow, straighforward, decent guy, and I spent a lot of time just BSing with him. I feel bad about every mean thing I ever said about him, and my deepest apologies go out for any time I have ever been out of line. I like the guy a lot, and well, I look forward to a long productive friendship, at leats one of the gamer/Internet buddy variety.

All I can say about Greypawn is he a totally nice man, smart and to the point. Anyone who can sit down in front of me, grin, and say "Okay, let's talk about virtual economics," can't be all bad. I look forward to many more debates about many subjects in the future.

EM and Valara, whom I didn't know before this, are some great community relations people. Warm, smart, with infectious enthusiasm that you can't forget. Love those two.

Brenlo, while he and I definitely don't see eye-to-eye on a great many things, we match each other in sarcasm and I can see where he's coming from. I have nothing but respect for the guy, having to be the communications director in a situation where communication failed and had to be changed and fixed. Tough job, and he's done it. Props for that. He is listening, he wants this game to succeed, and I admire and appreciate that.

Ashlanne, whom I didn't get to actually speak with much, but as all there for me as I was getting ready for this thing, was responsive to my needs, always helpful, and from what I could see, worked like heck before and during this weekend. Props to her.

Blixtev...when Debbie Sue the Brand Manager introduced us at the Voodoo lounge party, he called me "the angry guy" and I had a good laugh over that. We talked for a decent amount of time, and I have come to know him as a good man who loves his people, he defends them to the mat, and I have always admired that as a sign of an excellent leader. He has a clear vision for what he wants to see for this game, and is obviously listening -- while I may differe strongly with his opinions on some matters, and certainly his choice of metaphors, I like the man and am glad to see SWG is in such good hands.

DeadMeat...ahh, DeadMeat. Lorin just plain rocks. He is smart, nice, funny, and sensitive to the players. I immediately liked the man, and could probably hang with the dude, like I could Virrago and Greypawn, for hours and probably talk all night. Between him and Blix they make the foundation of a great team.

Pex is as cool as anyone could imagine him to be. In fact, all the DEVs seem to be a great bunch of guys who WILL, if permitted, make this into a great game again.

Even if Jake Neri looks a tad like Smallville's Michael Rosenbaum (kitty says he looks nicer -- no psychotic look in the eye), he seems to be very cool, much calmer and together than His predecessor. He is also open and honest when he makes a mistake -- another sign of a good leader. I wish him well.

It's easy to like these people. None of them really had anything to do with the NGE, and all of them want to make the game better. All of them are committed to listening to US to help them do that. If Inviting public enemey number one Fishermagi into their midst doesn't prove that, nothing will.

Debbie Sue and the marketing team. Now, in a world of geeks, gamers and fanboys, marketing is bound to be hated. I probably had the most to say about marketing, and well, they listened, We also had some great talks after the SWG gathering, and she knows her stuff. She is extremely concerned with getting it right this time, and wants to grow the game in a way that will NOT upset current players. Moya and I almost single handedly (well that would be double-handedly) nixed an idea they were working on that we thought wasn't very good (again the NDA might come into play, so I won't share the details, this is merely an illustration to show they are listening).

I met so many cool people, and EVERY one of them are decent, bright, enthusiastic, and I apologize to any and all who have been caught up in one of my sweeing flames. I am sorry, and you are all forgiven as well, for whatever that's worth.

All that leaves is Smedley. Now I'll get real personal and turn directly to him, since we didn't get to meet. Oy Veh, what can I say other than you know you "made a mistake," are now being extremely thankful to the community -- and those are good things. You have done everything except the one thing I think would do more good than anything else you could do. You have yet to apologise. I don't need it. I'm still here, paying your wages. I am here playing the game and contributing, in my own special way as a member of our great community.

YOU want to get the players we lost back. Making the game better, having this new team bring things back from the past in new ways that are more manageable are all GREAT things, and you WILL get some positive word-of-mouth going and it has been and will have effects. All this is good, but for many, it will not be enough.

What happened here was an emotional thing. People had virtual property destroyed, virtual lives wrecked, and they view YOU as the NEXUS of the storm. After all, you da boss, man. Apologize. Show them that you care, that you feel bad, and that you want them back. You have no idea how much good it'll do.

Here, I'll start. Mr. Smedley, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for every mean thing I ever said about you and your staff, everything I did and said I could have and should have done and said in a nicer way, with more recognition of you all AS PEOPLE. For that I am sorry. Deeply sorry. Now it's your turn, John.

There are people out there who no matter what anyone connected to SOE does, they won't forgive and forget. I will definitely NOT forget, but I have already forgiven. This is just my putting it in writing. That doesn't matter. There are many who are waiting for this. Just do it.

Forgiveness is not to say I am turning into a buttkisser. far from it. It does say that I now know the people I am criticising so it has a more human face, which I suppose is a big part of creating the Influencer Program.

My sword is now sheathed, and now I will work to help you build up the trust that has been broken. True faith will not return until we have enough truth over time to satisfy. For different people that threshhold is in a different place. I will ASSUME you won't make the same mistake again, but well, the sword is ONLY in its sheath. Trust but verify and all that.

Okay, I am exhausted, but I had to share this with everyone. The staff of SOE deserves it and the community deserves it as well.

God Bless and May the Force be with us. All of us.
 

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts/list.m?topic_id=436303

Sounds like a great bunch of guys huh?

I thought a DeNiro quote might help:

We are now in the Ninth Circle, the Circle of Traitors. Traitors to country! Traitors to fellow man! Traitors to GOD! You, sir, are charged with betrayin' the principles of all three.

Originally posted by Gravez

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I'd like to clarify why I think Mr. Nichols comments about what he's learned from SWG might open old wounds:

Consider the following statement:

 " I think in the past, what we probably made was the Uncle Owen experience as opposed to the Luke experience. We needed to deliver more of the Star Wars heroic and epic feeling to the game." (John Smedley). Smed said this as part of his rationale for forcing the NGE on us.

Very unfortunately, and I'm sure unintentionally, Mr. Nichols from Bioware used nearly the same words to explain what he thinks he has learned from SWG. If you want to talk about lessons to learn from SWG, paraphrasing comments made earlier by John Smedley to justify the NGE is probably not the best way to go imo.

I think this was an unintentional gaff on the part of Mr. Nichols, and I hope that if he realizes this, he'll be able to respond in some helpful manner.  Really, again, in light of all the bad feelings, not talking about SWG at all in the context of his new MMO is probably the best approach I think.

 

 

If you're going to attack people for things they say let's try this and you can pick it apart:

Those who have read my posts in the past have come to know me for someone who has been, shall we say, somewhat critical of the changes brought to our game. I have been quite passionate at times, and the discussion of things has often gotten heated.

I have noticed in the past two Chapters that this game seems to be making a turning under the guidance of Blixtev and Deadmeat, and, after this past weekend, I am more optimistic than I have ever have been about the game, the staff, and the future.

A few weeks ago, I recieved a VERY surprising e-mail from Ashlanne of SOE. I found that I was being invited, all expenses paid, out to Las Vegas for the SOE Influencers Summit, and then, welcome to enjoy the weekend of Fanfaire as well. I was a bit weirded out at first, after all, as people know, I, in the past, have been no fanboy, in fact, I've been downright contentious and a voice of opposition. Not being one to turn down a free trip to Vegas, I readily accepted.

Now, much of what went on at the Summit was under NDA, and as we all know, that means in that sense, what happened in Vegas stays in Vegas. I can share that I learned a great deal of how SOE operates, and the present and future of quite a few of their games, our own beloved SWG as well. On that front, all I can say is, I am pleased. It seems things are now finally going well for this game, and thankfully, it seems to be paying off too, which means, the good things we have seen will continue.

I was given a rare opportunity to share my feelings and ideas, and I think my contribution to the summit was constructive.

Many of the people posting from the FanFaire are sharing what went on in the various panels, and I'll leave that to them. When I get over my exhaustion and such, I'll post any thoughts I have on those things after some more coffee and food, and maybe a good night's sleep.

What I do want to speak of is of a more personal nature, but since it involves people I have been public about my negative feelings, it's time for me to be public with my positive feelings. Here we go, in no particular order except my stream of consciousness...

Virrago. He is totally cool. A real mellow, straighforward, decent guy, and I spent a lot of time just BSing with him. I feel bad about every mean thing I ever said about him, and my deepest apologies go out for any time I have ever been out of line. I like the guy a lot, and well, I look forward to a long productive friendship, at leats one of the gamer/Internet buddy variety.

All I can say about Greypawn is he a totally nice man, smart and to the point. Anyone who can sit down in front of me, grin, and say "Okay, let's talk about virtual economics," can't be all bad. I look forward to many more debates about many subjects in the future.

EM and Valara, whom I didn't know before this, are some great community relations people. Warm, smart, with infectious enthusiasm that you can't forget. Love those two.

Brenlo, while he and I definitely don't see eye-to-eye on a great many things, we match each other in sarcasm and I can see where he's coming from. I have nothing but respect for the guy, having to be the communications director in a situation where communication failed and had to be changed and fixed. Tough job, and he's done it. Props for that. He is listening, he wants this game to succeed, and I admire and appreciate that.

Ashlanne, whom I didn't get to actually speak with much, but as all there for me as I was getting ready for this thing, was responsive to my needs, always helpful, and from what I could see, worked like heck before and during this weekend. Props to her.

Blixtev...when Debbie Sue the Brand Manager introduced us at the Voodoo lounge party, he called me "the angry guy" and I had a good laugh over that. We talked for a decent amount of time, and I have come to know him as a good man who loves his people, he defends them to the mat, and I have always admired that as a sign of an excellent leader. He has a clear vision for what he wants to see for this game, and is obviously listening -- while I may differe strongly with his opinions on some matters, and certainly his choice of metaphors, I like the man and am glad to see SWG is in such good hands.

DeadMeat...ahh, DeadMeat. Lorin just plain rocks. He is smart, nice, funny, and sensitive to the players. I immediately liked the man, and could probably hang with the dude, like I could Virrago and Greypawn, for hours and probably talk all night. Between him and Blix they make the foundation of a great team.

Pex is as cool as anyone could imagine him to be. In fact, all the DEVs seem to be a great bunch of guys who WILL, if permitted, make this into a great game again.

Even if Jake Neri looks a tad like Smallville's Michael Rosenbaum (kitty says he looks nicer -- no psychotic look in the eye), he seems to be very cool, much calmer and together than His predecessor. He is also open and honest when he makes a mistake -- another sign of a good leader. I wish him well.

It's easy to like these people. None of them really had anything to do with the NGE, and all of them want to make the game better. All of them are committed to listening to US to help them do that. If Inviting public enemey number one Fishermagi into their midst doesn't prove that, nothing will.

Debbie Sue and the marketing team. Now, in a world of geeks, gamers and fanboys, marketing is bound to be hated. I probably had the most to say about marketing, and well, they listened, We also had some great talks after the SWG gathering, and she knows her stuff. She is extremely concerned with getting it right this time, and wants to grow the game in a way that will NOT upset current players. Moya and I almost single handedly (well that would be double-handedly) nixed an idea they were working on that we thought wasn't very good (again the NDA might come into play, so I won't share the details, this is merely an illustration to show they are listening).

I met so many cool people, and EVERY one of them are decent, bright, enthusiastic, and I apologize to any and all who have been caught up in one of my sweeing flames. I am sorry, and you are all forgiven as well, for whatever that's worth.

All that leaves is Smedley. Now I'll get real personal and turn directly to him, since we didn't get to meet. Oy Veh, what can I say other than you know you "made a mistake," are now being extremely thankful to the community -- and those are good things. You have done everything except the one thing I think would do more good than anything else you could do. You have yet to apologise. I don't need it. I'm still here, paying your wages. I am here playing the game and contributing, in my own special way as a member of our great community.

YOU want to get the players we lost back. Making the game better, having this new team bring things back from the past in new ways that are more manageable are all GREAT things, and you WILL get some positive word-of-mouth going and it has been and will have effects. All this is good, but for many, it will not be enough.

What happened here was an emotional thing. People had virtual property destroyed, virtual lives wrecked, and they view YOU as the NEXUS of the storm. After all, you da boss, man. Apologize. Show them that you care, that you feel bad, and that you want them back. You have no idea how much good it'll do.

Here, I'll start. Mr. Smedley, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for every mean thing I ever said about you and your staff, everything I did and said I could have and should have done and said in a nicer way, with more recognition of you all AS PEOPLE. For that I am sorry. Deeply sorry. Now it's your turn, John.

There are people out there who no matter what anyone connected to SOE does, they won't forgive and forget. I will definitely NOT forget, but I have already forgiven. This is just my putting it in writing. That doesn't matter. There are many who are waiting for this. Just do it.

Forgiveness is not to say I am turning into a buttkisser. far from it. It does say that I now know the people I am criticising so it has a more human face, which I suppose is a big part of creating the Influencer Program.

My sword is now sheathed, and now I will work to help you build up the trust that has been broken. True faith will not return until we have enough truth over time to satisfy. For different people that threshhold is in a different place. I will ASSUME you won't make the same mistake again, but well, the sword is ONLY in its sheath. Trust but verify and all that.

Okay, I am exhausted, but I had to share this with everyone. The staff of SOE deserves it and the community deserves it as well.

God Bless and May the Force be with us. All of us.
 

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts/list.m?topic_id=436303

Sounds like a great bunch of guys huh?

I thought a DeNiro quote might help:

We are now in the Ninth Circle, the Circle of Traitors. Traitors to country! Traitors to fellow man! Traitors to GOD! You, sir, are charged with betrayin' the principles of all three.

Ah, so forgiveness and grace are treason. Jesus was a traitor. I understand perfectly now.

At any rate, I have continued to be a vocal and critical customer of their product. If you see treason in that, so be it. I  diagree  -- although I will still speak my mind when I feel called.

I am not at war, I am a customer,  a Star Wars fan, and a player of games.

Originally posted by Ginaz

Originally posted by ummax

Originally posted by Ginaz

Originally posted by ummax

Originally posted by tillamook

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Second, don't you really think that the problems in SWG were a broken release, complete revamps to a live game and bait and switch allegation concerning the last expansion?  Um, did y'all miss the significance of those events?

These are lessons SOE need to learn. I can not say I have seen anything from bioware, that said to me these are lessons they need to learn. They are a AAA company in many peoples book, you can not attain that image without knowing your product has to be polished and well executed.

Not sure this is a worry I can share with you.

 

I think even SOE learned it years ago and are now doing well because they have moved on. The only ones who have never moved on are the angry SWG vets. Honestly no game company will ever make a game they would want to play because no one wants anyone playing their game that will complain over a change to a game for 6 years all over the internet. Though we may have had fun at the time,seriously it wasn't that great of a game to begin with.
 

 

I agree they have learned their "lesson" as it were long ago which is why many subscribers have returned.    There is always going to be a section of the original "angry disgruntled vets" that will never be pleasable.     It was long ago time for the companies involved to move on and they have.     The new bioware product is not being designed with these vets in mind its being designed with a larger audience in mind.   Its also for obvious reasons being designed with KOTOR stand alone followers in mind.  

 There is not a game on this earth unless it was the original buggy gangly product that will please them "angry vets" and everyone knows this.  There is nothing SOE, LA or Bioware can do to change this.   

SOE reinvented itself awhile back now and the project bioware and LA are working on is going to be a totally different animal to the now very old product known as SWG.   

I don't really have a problem with your main points, but please, for the love of God, don't keep repeating that same old tired claim that "many subscribers have returned".  It just isn't true, unless your definition of "many" is somehow different then mine.

 

If i were speaking of only one game designed 5 years ago or more really now I would see your point, but they have an entire new line of stuff coming out and have in fact reinvented themselves and in a big way and many subscribers that left the old sony have in fact returned but not necessarily to play SWG.    I'm not sure how or why anyone would have trouble with such a statement but anyhow feel free.  Its probably the only time I have stated it and its a result of seeing a new generation of products immerging built in a completely different way that in some cases dont even obey the age old tired formula that games like EQ, EQ2, and WOW were built on.  

I don't really understand your response so I'm just going to say that, to me, the claim that "many subscribers have returned" implies thousands of former players came back and stuck around for a significant amount of time, not just for a month or the vet trial thingy.  If thats what your implying, it just isn't true.

I didn't say anything about SWG or vet trials the original comment your talking about was in the first statement I made in this thread on that this company along with others have moved on and are making new games and SWG is a 5 year old dated game probably slated for replacement.   The agency is being developed and DC online and free realms.   Coincidentally as the agency is presented at E3 and looks fairly close to being released matrix shuts down.    People who hated the old sony are returning to play games that are not SWG.    I am not sure how or why you think I spoke of vet trials? I didn't even use the word?

I was not speaking of SWG but of a company that has moved onwards and its producing new products.    The thread is about lessons learned from SWG not whether people are still playing it or returning to it.  My statement was about old sony customers returning or anticipating returning to play their present games either just released or about to be released. 

The past is over.  Sony has moved on like other companies.  

What's not to understand? Sure some people will never go back that is their choice, but there are shiny new boxes starting to hit shelves (figuratively speaking) and it is causing people to take a look.  Many of those people in fact like what they see and have decided to play their games again.

/shrug

Jesus H Ummax give it a rest.

We've officially heard Iconic, next  up St** W**sy, and then the plan will be complete, muahahaha!

Originally posted by Gravez

If you're going to attack people for things they say let's try this and you can pick it apart:

Those who have read my posts in the past have come to know me for someone who has been, shall we say, somewhat critical of the changes brought to our game. I have been quite passionate at times, and the discussion of things has often gotten heated.

... 

Not sure how this plays into the discussion about Bioware not learning from SOE. Seems more like a personal issue between two people. Though the date on that thread is 2007 and seems there is a trend to pick up and apart old posts as of late. I'm game if its the trend. Look me up here and you will find me defending SOE after the CU because they were finally dealing with the ranger community. Actual documents and correspondence. You will find me going toe to toe here (should the posts still stand) with an angry vet named Warsong. Have a look at it, heck post it here and there and anywhere else you can find it. It wasn't pretty and the arguments weren't nice.

My response now? I was fooled. Shammed. Had smoke blown up my arse by a dishonest company. I admit it. Worse still, I can show you posts similar to mine from players much smarter than me and more skeptical. They too were fooled. So the lesson is that a lot of people have been tricked, scammed and fleeced by this company and to go about digging into old posts does little because it is what you do and stand for now that counts. Especially when it comes to this company.

**

Now as for the op, I strongly hope Bioware comes out with a great product. I am aware it won't be a sandbox and in some sense a rather intricate choose your own adventure game with a myraid of storylines. I will give it a whirl if it comes out polished. Will it be PreCU? No. But hopefully, it will not be NGE either. Iconic is a cursed word.  Many vets would like to see Bioware distance itself from the old game more distinctly as a way of signifying the failure of the SOE's NGE as a Star Wars MMO and as an assurance that our hopes for something a bit more honest and enjoyable won't be dashed. I can understand the tiptoe dance at the moment due to the existing partnership between SOE and LA and figure that there will be a day where the voices will be a bit more biting and direct. Perhaps after SWG folds.

Originally posted by kefkah

Originally posted by Gravez

If you're going to attack people for things they say let's try this and you can pick it apart:

Those who have read my posts in the past have come to know me for someone who has been, shall we say, somewhat critical of the changes brought to our game. I have been quite passionate at times, and the discussion of things has often gotten heated.

... 

 

Not sure how this plays into the discussion about Bioware not learning from SOE. Seems more like a personal issue between two people. Though the date on that thread is 2007 and seems there is a trend to pick up and apart old posts as of late. I'm game if its the trend. Look me up here and you will find me defending SOE after the CU because they were finally dealing with the ranger community. Actual documents and correspondence. You will find me going toe to toe here (should the posts still stand) with an angry vet named Warsong. Have a look at it, heck post it here and there and anywhere else you can find it. It wasn't pretty and the arguments weren't nice.

My response now? I was fooled. Shammed. Had smoke blown up my arse by a dishonest company. I admit it. Worse still, I can show you posts similar to mine from players much smarter than me and more skeptical. They too were fooled. So the lesson is that a lot of people have been tricked, scammed and fleeced by this company and to go about digging into old posts does little because it is what you do and stand for now that counts. Especially when it comes to this company.

**

Now as for the op, I strongly hope Bioware comes out with a great product. I am aware it won't be a sandbox and in some sense a rather intricate choose your own adventure game with a myraid of storylines. I will give it a whirl if it comes out polished. Will it be PreCU? No. But hopefully, it will not be NGE either. Iconic is a cursed word.  Many vets would like to see Bioware distance itself from the old game more distinctly as a way of signifying the failure of the SOE's NGE as a Star Wars MMO and as an assurance that our hopes for something a bit more honest and enjoyable won't be dashed. I can understand the tiptoe dance at the moment due to the existing partnership between SOE and LA and figure that there will be a day where the voices will be a bit more biting and direct. Perhaps after SWG folds.

 

Yup, exactly. Although I was never completely fooled, I just decided, after actually meeting with many of the people involved (although none of the people actually responsible for the CU or the NGE), to be gracious, and I still like most of them and stay in touch.

This whole debacle has made me a few friends in this industry, and some, like Jeff Freeman (God rest his soul) and Greypawn, have more than proven themselves to have learned from the debacle -- even though GP didn't even have anything to do with the game when it happened.

However, in terms of the management of SWG, I learned pretty quickly that Blixtev and Deadmeat were full of it. I immediately said so on the boards, and those who remember the C6CD will remember my consistent advocacy for the players.

I forgave, and they blew it, No big deal. I'm a firm believer in forgiveness, and I think we should all try it from time to time.

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by kefkah

Originally posted by Gravez

If you're going to attack people for things they say let's try this and you can pick it apart:

Those who have read my posts in the past have come to know me for someone who has been, shall we say, somewhat critical of the changes brought to our game. I have been quite passionate at times, and the discussion of things has often gotten heated.

... 

 

Not sure how this plays into the discussion about Bioware not learning from SOE. Seems more like a personal issue between two people. Though the date on that thread is 2007 and seems there is a trend to pick up and apart old posts as of late. I'm game if its the trend. Look me up here and you will find me defending SOE after the CU because they were finally dealing with the ranger community. Actual documents and correspondence. You will find me going toe to toe here (should the posts still stand) with an angry vet named Warsong. Have a look at it, heck post it here and there and anywhere else you can find it. It wasn't pretty and the arguments weren't nice.

My response now? I was fooled. Shammed. Had smoke blown up my arse by a dishonest company. I admit it. Worse still, I can show you posts similar to mine from players much smarter than me and more skeptical. They too were fooled. So the lesson is that a lot of people have been tricked, scammed and fleeced by this company and to go about digging into old posts does little because it is what you do and stand for now that counts. Especially when it comes to this company.

**

Now as for the op, I strongly hope Bioware comes out with a great product. I am aware it won't be a sandbox and in some sense a rather intricate choose your own adventure game with a myraid of storylines. I will give it a whirl if it comes out polished. Will it be PreCU? No. But hopefully, it will not be NGE either. Iconic is a cursed word.  Many vets would like to see Bioware distance itself from the old game more distinctly as a way of signifying the failure of the SOE's NGE as a Star Wars MMO and as an assurance that our hopes for something a bit more honest and enjoyable won't be dashed. I can understand the tiptoe dance at the moment due to the existing partnership between SOE and LA and figure that there will be a day where the voices will be a bit more biting and direct. Perhaps after SWG folds.

 

 

Yup, exactly. Although I was never completely fooled, I just decided, after actually meeting with many of the people involved (although none of the people actually responsible for the CU or the NGE), to be gracious, and I still like most of them and stay in touch.

This whole debacle has made me a few friends in this industry, and some, like Jeff Freeman (God rest his soul) and Greypawn, have more than proven themselves to have learned from the debacle -- even though GP didn't even have anything to do with the game when it happened.

However, in terms of the management of SWG, I learned pretty quickly that Blixtev and Deadmeat were full of it. I immediately said so on the threads, and those who remember the C6CD will remember my once again consistent advocacy for the players.

I forgave, and they blew it, No big deal. I'm a firm believer in forgiveness, and I think we should all try it from time to time.

My O.P. contains my first reaction to the interview I'm commenting on.  I do apologize if that comes across as an attack in some way.  I can see how it might, but I was really just sharing my gut reaction to something I heard.
 

Specifically, when an executive producer for the new game begins a sentence with, "What we learned from SWG is...," I surely don't want to hear him say the same thing that Smed said to justify the NGE.  This kind of comment cannot help but evoke a negative reaction from a lot of people that were burned in SWG.  The removal of everyone's profession was possibly the most controversial aspect of the unwelcome revamp.

I don't think Mr. Nichols said this to intentionally push people's buttons, but I know that buttons were pushed, and mine weren't the only ones.

In the O.P., I also express some general frustration with the leadership I've seen lately coming from too many MMO execs.  This is not directed at Mr. Nichols specifically.  I could mention the executive decision making regarding games from Vanguard to Tabula Rasa to Star-gate worlds, as well as SWG.   It's very unfortunate, in my view, that Mr. Nichols happened to make a comment that sounded eerily similar to what Smed said was his reason for ruining this game and it's community.

I don't think Nichols is a bad guy.  He seems alright (first impression) and his game looks promising.  This just didn't happen to be a particulary good section of one interview for him, in my opinion.  I'll bet if he had a chance to think more about the minefield he was just walked into, he might have come up with a better response.

I think if I was representing the new MMO, I might carry cue-cards like this in case anyone tries to bring up SWG:

"We recognize that SWG had some struggles, but we don't want to bring any of that baggage into this new MMO.  This is an entirely different game, and we feel excited about the direction we're taking"  Hey Tom, feel free to use this anytime lol :). 

Maybe printing it on a t-shirt or having buttons might be handy as well...  Some of Tom's other interviews are excellent, imo, by the way.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Fishermage

Originally posted by kefkah

Originally posted by Gravez

If you're going to attack people for things they say let's try this and you can pick it apart:

Those who have read my posts in the past have come to know me for someone who has been, shall we say, somewhat critical of the changes brought to our game. I have been quite passionate at times, and the discussion of things has often gotten heated.

... 

 

Not sure how this plays into the discussion about Bioware not learning from SOE. Seems more like a personal issue between two people. Though the date on that thread is 2007 and seems there is a trend to pick up and apart old posts as of late. I'm game if its the trend. Look me up here and you will find me defending SOE after the CU because they were finally dealing with the ranger community. Actual documents and correspondence. You will find me going toe to toe here (should the posts still stand) with an angry vet named Warsong. Have a look at it, heck post it here and there and anywhere else you can find it. It wasn't pretty and the arguments weren't nice.

My response now? I was fooled. Shammed. Had smoke blown up my arse by a dishonest company. I admit it. Worse still, I can show you posts similar to mine from players much smarter than me and more skeptical. They too were fooled. So the lesson is that a lot of people have been tricked, scammed and fleeced by this company and to go about digging into old posts does little because it is what you do and stand for now that counts. Especially when it comes to this company.

**

Now as for the op, I strongly hope Bioware comes out with a great product. I am aware it won't be a sandbox and in some sense a rather intricate choose your own adventure game with a myraid of storylines. I will give it a whirl if it comes out polished. Will it be PreCU? No. But hopefully, it will not be NGE either. Iconic is a cursed word.  Many vets would like to see Bioware distance itself from the old game more distinctly as a way of signifying the failure of the SOE's NGE as a Star Wars MMO and as an assurance that our hopes for something a bit more honest and enjoyable won't be dashed. I can understand the tiptoe dance at the moment due to the existing partnership between SOE and LA and figure that there will be a day where the voices will be a bit more biting and direct. Perhaps after SWG folds.

 

 

Yup, exactly. Although I was never completely fooled, I just decided, after actually meeting with many of the people involved (although none of the people actually responsible for the CU or the NGE), to be gracious, and I still like most of them and stay in touch.

This whole debacle has made me a few friends in this industry, and some, like Jeff Freeman (God rest his soul) and Greypawn, have more than proven themselves to have learned from the debacle -- even though GP didn't even have anything to do with the game when it happened.

However, in terms of the management of SWG, I learned pretty quickly that Blixtev and Deadmeat were full of it. I immediately said so on the threads, and those who remember the C6CD will remember my once again consistent advocacy for the players.

I forgave, and they blew it, No big deal. I'm a firm believer in forgiveness, and I think we should all try it from time to time.

My O.P. contains my first reaction to the interview I'm commenting on.  I do apologize if that comes across as an attack in some way.  I can see how it might, but I was really just sharing my gut reaction to something I heard.
 

Specifically, when a Bioware rep begins a sentence with, "What we learned from SWG is...," I surely don't want to hear him say the same thing that Smed said to justify the NGE.  This kind of comment cannot help but evoke a negative reaction from a lot of people that were burned in SWG.  The removal of everyone's profession was possibly the most controversial aspect of the unwelcome revamp.

I don't think Mr. Nichols said this to intentionally push people's buttons, but I know that buttons were pushed, and mine weren't the only ones.

In the O.P., I also express some general frustration with the leadership I've seen lately coming from too many MMO execs.  This is not directed at Mr. Nichols specifically.  I could mention the executive decision making regarding games from Vanguard to Tabula Rasa to Star-gate worlds, as well as SWG.   It's very unfortunate, in my view, that Mr. Nichols happened to make a comment that sounded eerily similar to what Smed said was his reason for ruining this game and it's community.

I don't think Nichols is a bad guy.  He seems alright (first impression) and his game looks promising.  This just didn't happen to be a particulary good section of one interview for him, in my opinion.  I'll bet if he had a chance to think more about the minefield he was just walked into, he might have come up with a better response.

I think if I was representing the new MMO, I might carry cue-cards like this in case anyone tries to bring up SWG:

"We recognize that SWG had some struggles, but we don't want to bring any of that baggage into this new MMO.  This is an entirely different game, and we feel excited about the direction we're taking"  Hey Tom, feel free to use this anytime lol :). 

Maybe printing it on a t-shirt or having buttons might be handy as well...  Some of Tom's other interviews are excellent, imo, by the way.

to me his comment means one thing:

"we are making the game we/LA want as opposed to the game fans would want". in other words nge 2.0 a stinkburger.

 Actually, if Bioware was making a Mass Effect MMO, this pointless discussion would not take place. Think about it.

Well OP and many others, apparently it's YOU who didn't learn anything from SWG.

The lesson to learn from SWG is that buggy, incomplete, unbalanced, straight-up broken game mechanics don't sell a game.

Also, grinding without content to mask the grind is just grinding.

SWG was doomed LONG before the CU or NGE. Long before. I quit when the Holocron grind started.

 LIES!

The Classes in Galaxies pre-cu were one of the biggest attention getters to the game. I was never one to play off the story line characters but I think people were enjoying CH's and everone needed an Entertainer for looks and buffs too. Anyway....wait a minute what is he talking about???? There were no classes, you just picked your skills and then went towards a profession based upon it. 

Originally posted by ummax

 

I didn't say anything about SWG or vet trials the original comment your talking about was in the first statement I made in this thread on that this company along with others have moved on and are making new games and SWG is a 5 year old dated game probably slated for replacement.   The agency is being developed and DC online and free realms.   Coincidentally as the agency is presented at E3 and looks fairly close to being released matrix shuts down.    People who hated the old sony are returning to play games that are not SWG.    I am not sure how or why you think I spoke of vet trials? I didn't even use the word?

I was not speaking of SWG but of a company that has moved onwards and its producing new products.    The thread is about lessons learned from SWG not whether people are still playing it or returning to it.  My statement was about old sony customers returning or anticipating returning to play their present games either just released or about to be released. 

The past is over.  Sony has moved on like other companies.  

What's not to understand? Sure some people will never go back that is their choice, but there are shiny new boxes starting to hit shelves (figuratively speaking) and it is causing people to take a look.  Many of those people in fact like what they see and have decided to play their games again.

/shrug

 

I think I see your point now.  You didn't mean swg specifically but soe games in general.  I don't really agree but I understand what you meant now..........I think.

 TOR is going to be a slightly more cartoony KOTOR with online elements. It's basically KOTOR 3.

I really hate the bright colors and cartoony look. That alone is loosing me. Looks like KOTWOW to me and I never played WOW because of that style graphics.

In any case I will try it when I can for free, but I will not buy it until.

TOR is NOT a sandbox persistant world classless MMO you were looking for....move along...

I doubt any MMO will truely deliver a real Next Gen Sandbox Persistant World, but if one does, I predict it will be a massive success.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Longsnout

 Tom Nichols, executive producer, did NOT call the classes useless. The interviewer, Casey Schreiner, did.

Nichols said: " What we learned from Galaxies, is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic and recognizable."

The whole interview can be seen here.

Indeed the interviewer provided the context by saying that SWG had "useless classes."  I believe the concern is related to Mr. Nichol's response to this:  He laughs and says, "What we learned from Galaxies is that we need to make sure that we have classes that are iconic..."

Again, if this is why he thinks Galaxies failed (too many classes that were not iconic) I think he should refrain from talking about SWG, or do some more homework. 

Remember too that the alleged need for "iconic classes" is what was used as a justification for perhaps the most hated development in this game's history.  Mr. Nichols just (knowingly or unknowingly) associated himself with SOE's decision to eliminate most players' professions, all in the name of making the game more "iconic" and "starwarsy."  Even Dan Rubenfield (lead dev on NGE) recognized that eliminating all the professions is probably what alienated players more than anything.

SOE and Lucasarts somehow got this crazy notion that their game was failing because it had too many classes.  The players, however, said loudly and repeatedly that their game was failing because it lacked content and was busted to hell.  Nichols, in his comments, seems to have the same old crazy notion about what was wrong with SWG.  This does not suggest to me that much has been learned.

I think Mr. nichol has done his homework, it is his job, after all. Its a matter from opinion, I myself would argue that SWG had useless classe at launch, maybe not from a sandbox lover's standpoint, but definitely from a business standpoint. Bioware is not trying to make the disgruntled SWG vets dream game, they are making a title to compete with WoW and create enormous amounts of revenue.

Originally posted by Frostbite05

The two games share the same IP thats it heh.

Don't be ridiculous.

SWTOR is the NGE reborn.  Its the SAME thing. The SAME concept as the NGE.

Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

Originally posted by Frostbite05

The two games share the same IP thats it heh.

 

Don't be ridiculous.

SWTOR is the NGE reborn.  Its the SAME thing. The SAME concept as the NGE.

Don't be such a SWG Vet.

There hasn't been enough information released to even come close to your conclusion.  Condensed classes do not an NGE make.

Originally posted by Hrothmund

I think Mr. nichol has done his homework, it is his job, after all. Its a matter from opinion, I myself would argue that SWG had useless classe at launch, maybe not from a sandbox lover's standpoint, but definitely from a business standpoint. Bioware is not trying to make the disgruntled SWG vets dream game, they are making a title to compete with WoW and create enormous amounts of revenue.

I agree.  I think they are working hard to build classes each with their own niche in the world.  This is a difficult task since the masses want to play jedi and sith but I think they are taking the other classes seriously.