Ima sadist sanders even dead ima beat it to the next level :)

Originally posted by CoffeeGrunt

Ima sadist sanders even dead ima beat it to the next level :)

just saying, in 15 pages I would of thought people could see all points of views on this subject instead of arguing the old tried arguments over and over again.

i know i know , i was just kiddin.

MMORPG.COM has many dead horse topics ... what to do ? its the best game available atm ^^

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Originally posted by Goronian

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Originally posted by Comnitus

Instead of blaming the players, have you considered that the game's structure is at fault?
Let's look at WoW as an example, seeing as it's very popular. I don't see Blizzard glorifying and advertising their low level content, do you? No. It's all about end-game. They make those raid dungeons look so awesome, they promise all this great loot, but, oh wait, you have to be level 80! Don't blame people for wanting to rush through the "unimportant" things like leveling. The gear is usually worse, the quests are usually worse, the dungeons at those lower levels are usually empty, the battlegrounds are not as populated, etc., etc. This isn't as severe in WoW only because it has so many subs, but if you take any other game that is similar but has less subs, you start seeing the picture.
MMOs today are all about "the grass is greener when you're max level". Some like it, some don't. If you try to have the game start at level 1, you'll end up being criticized because "you're doing the same thing at level 1 as you are at level 40!" Of course, some of those same people later on cry, "Why should there be levels? Why should I have to be XX level in order to do something?" Hypocrisy at its best.
I've met many casuals who look at WoW and other MMOs as just a way to relax, like you mentioned, because they have limited time to play. Sure, they want to feel like they accomplish something even if they don't have much time, and that may be what you're linking "instant gratification" to. If you want timesinks, by all means, MMO devs are capable of giving them to you.
 

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But you can't have MMOs without timesinks of some kind, since devs need those sub money you pay. So they NEED you to waste your time and keep you in, all at the same time. But instead of making the ride enjoyable, they make it a carrot on a bloody stick. It's just... Strange.

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It's not strange it's plain lazy. Making something enjoyable but having it take a long time takes time, effort, ingenuity and money on their part of which they would not rather spend unless they have to do so in the first place to retain customers. If they can get away with "Shucking and Jiving" you with cheap repetitive experiences and still have you subscribed as customer while doing so then they continue on as usual. Since most MMO players allow if not encourage the same old repetitive play style they usually get the same old leveling style MMO's with little innovation but only varied amounts of grind from one extreme to another depending on game. The majority of MMO companies would love for you to waste time oodles and oodles of time leveling because that means you keep paying them money. Greed and low expectations FTW !

Originally posted by Goronian

In fact, it's been bugging me a lot, after I started to read these boards.

Ahem... So we have casual players. Cool, they're welcome, they pay devs bills and run around and solo stuff. Yes, I don't understand them, but that's cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But tell me... Why do you need to level and get everything so fast?

See, "casual" seems to translate these days to "instant gratificationist", when most of them pose themselves, as "busy people" who have limiteed hours of play (and time managment is a word unheard of, but let's not dig into this). Fine, limited time, say, five hours a week.

Why is it so important to you, to be able to get to the top as fast as you can? Why is it important to you, to have that "best gear"? Why can't you just enhoy the game, the way it is? Sure, you have less time and will hit the top quite behind the "elite", possibly in half a year or a full one. Why is that a problem? You get to play the game and enjoy the process. Not only that, but most of today's MMO content is manageable in 1-2 hour chunks, why not? Why do you want it faster and easier, when all you really should do is take the things slower and without the fuss?

Why is that such a big problem, whether you hit the max level in three or six months? WHY?

one word... greed.

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Originally posted by Goronian

Why is it so important to you, to be able to get to the top as fast as you can?

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It's not. What's important to me is hitting the next level so that I have that talent point or new spell to play with, and then finishing that toon so I can start another one and spend his talent points and play with his new spells every level.

Getting that ding and playing with your new abilities is the only thing fun in mmorpgs. Standing in one spot spamming the attack button for 40 hours just to get that 1 talent point is NOT fun.

I grew up on Shadowbane. 31 freaking classes and about 2 days to max level if you're lazy. I played that for nearly six years and I STILL haven't played with every power and ability. There are still countless types of toons I haven't made in that game. In WoW or similar games, after killing your first mob and targeting the next you've done just about all there is to do in that game, sarcastically of course, but you get the picture.

Why do people who started out with "one toon every 5 years" games like EQ think that they are the only people with the right to an opinion on mmo gameplay? WHY?

People who are bugged by instant gratification bug me.

No, yo momma!

/close thread

Sorry I am a ‘hardcore’, the thread would be dead, but I took that dead horse, crafted it’s hide into a suit of leather armour, it’s guts into new bow string and made a totem out of it’s skull.

The casual player disappeared of into the plains looking for another horse to slay for 1 xp. :D

It is not instant gratification that bugs you, its people who believe a game should be fun from day one, rather than needing to level for 200 hundreds before the real fun begins.

They won't be any happier without levels, its not the levels or the time it takes to level that is the problem. It is the simple fact that levelling in the vast majority of MMOs is the most boring experience you can find in ANY game, not just in MMOs.

People won't play a boring game and they sure as hell won't pay for a boring game, but as they have no choice if they must play an MMO, they will keep demanding that levelling takes less time.

I wouldn't call myself a casual.  I raided pretty heavily both in EQ1 and EQ2.  My wife and I tried LOTRO and Vanguard but didn't stay in either very long;  LOTRO because it was boring and Vanguard because there was nobody to play with (and we really liked that game).

I simply don't like the leveling part of the game.  I'm happy to spend many hours and many months at top level working on high end quests and getting geared out.  I love to raid.  I simply don't like grinding meaningless levels.  I'd be perfectly happy to be able to create a character at max level and get to playing the real game, not the level grinding garbage.

They get pleasure from ruining the game for others and making the devs spin around their bad taste and stupid concept of what an MMO is.

Originally posted by darkedone02

one word... greed.

Simple yet dead on target...  Mainstream games must cover the needs of so many different types of players, to keep customer base up many companies just resort to the easy way out.

Originally posted by Memghost

Originally posted by darkedone02

one word... greed.

 

Simple yet dead on target...  Mainstream games must cover the needs of so many different types of players, to keep customer base up many companies just resort to the easy way out.

lol... this is honestly hilarious. We are greedy for wanting to be able to have FUN for something we pay for and put our time in to? HOW DARE WE. That is way to much to ask for, everyone who thinks that should be executed on the spot. After all, MMOs aren't for fun, they are for spending 1000 hours of playing time just grinding away your life.

Dev's do it because its easier to make end game content for everyone, than making content throughout the entire game.  If they do plan content throughout the game the end game normally comes last, but the " hardcores " complain that there is nothing to do when they get there 10 light years ahead of everyone else.   Its kind of a poison for the dev's and the casual crowd is where the money is at so instant gratification should be no surprise to anyone.

This is what ruined WAR.

The noob RVR players whined for somthing easymode and thats what the Devs gave them in WAR.

 It's the same players that never got a group (except for a PUG) in DAoC. 

They will always suck at RVR....   Reason they left DAoC

Originally posted by bobfish

It is not instant gratification that bugs you, its people who believe a game should be fun from day one, rather than needing to level for 200 hundreds before the real fun begins.

They won't be any happier without levels, its not the levels or the time it takes to level that is the problem. It is the simple fact that levelling in the vast majority of MMOs is the most boring experience you can find in ANY game, not just in MMOs.

People won't play a boring game and they sure as hell won't pay for a boring game, but as they have no choice if they must play an MMO, they will keep demanding that levelling takes less time.

I disagree.

To me leveling is not boring.

to me grinding exp solo is boring. Farming the very same quest or mobs for houers and days to come from 43 to 44 is boring. to me doing the 500th "kill 10 of this" quest is boring.

a lot of people seem to believe they have to level to get into high level groups because that is where they think the fun is. Only for a very few that is true. In Most MMO's the fun is right there from level 1 on, form a duo / trio with another newbie or two and have a blast exploring and interacting at the same time. Do it OOC or RP but that is where the fun is. Find where the limits of your solo/duo/trio are try to solo a mob  5 levels higher than you, duo one 8 levels higher trio one 10 levels higher than yourself.

In open world MMO's the fun is what you make out of it, in theme park and instant gratification MMO's the fun is what the dev designed for you, like it or leave it.

Well, there are obviously two conflicting points of view in this thread. One side seems motivated by loyalty and respect. The other, fueled by lust and greed. Neither side is right or wrong because it comes down to personal preference, and everyone should get what they want out of a game. The issue then is that each side is detrimental to the other when combined within the same game, and thus, nobody wins because no game can cater to both the social explorers and the loot whores. Perhaps if there were some other way for the achievers to set themselves apart from everyone else besides item upgrades, more folks would be happy. Doubtful I suppose. They won't be happy unless they are in God mode. Like killing ants with a maginfying glass. You guys are so cool.

Originally posted by Goronian

In fact, it's been bugging me a lot, after I started to read these boards.

Ahem... So we have casual players. Cool, they're welcome, they pay devs bills and run around and solo stuff. Yes, I don't understand them, but that's cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But tell me... Why do you need to level and get everything so fast?

See, "casual" seems to translate these days to "instant gratificationist", when most of them pose themselves, as "busy people" who have limiteed hours of play (and time managment is a word unheard of, but let's not dig into this). Fine, limited time, say, five hours a week.

Why is it so important to you, to be able to get to the top as fast as you can? Why is it important to you, to have that "best gear"? Why can't you just enhoy the game, the way it is? Sure, you have less time and will hit the top quite behind the "elite", possibly in half a year or a full one. Why is that a problem? You get to play the game and enjoy the process. Not only that, but most of today's MMO content is manageable in 1-2 hour chunks, why not? Why do you want it faster and easier, when all you really should do is take the things slower and without the fuss?

Why is that such a big problem, whether you hit the max level in three or six months? WHY?

Most of the fun of playing -any- video game is being sucked into the world. Nobody wants to play as a weakling no-body that can't do anything. They want to play as the hero, or the villain. Not the village idiot. (okay, maybe a few like that role more than I realized...) That's why it's important. That, and on PvP servers they don't have any chance to defend themselves.

Playing a game should never be something you have to lose sleep over (if you work full time, are married, etc you'll probably have to, to make it anywhere, yes even in WoW...) When you get older, and you gain responsibilities, you have to ask yourself, should I or the people I love have to suffer so I can play a damn game? In your own words, being elite takes time and dedication, something full time working parents DO NOT have. What do you get then? A game with nothing but teenagers. You really want that? Do you also want 8 hour movies at the theatres? 1 hour waits for your lunch when you eat out? Oh but it'll be the best lunch you ever had!

Casual or hardcore cannot be used when discussing gratification.There is no such thing as casual,you are playing the game or you are not,there is no race there is no time limit,there is no need to use the word casual.Advancement is another way over used word,as you are not or should not be there for advanmcement,you are suppose to be there playing the game as it is laid out,you enjoy the characters,the landscapes,the mobs the armour the weapons,your guild so much more to a game than just i need to advance,because NO you do not need to advance,if you think that is the sole reason for playing,you do not belong in that type of game,quit fooling yourself.

As far as the topic goes on INSTANT gratification,it is IMO also a ridiculous expectation,you would have to have a low self esteem ,i guess is one way of putting it.You need to be handed everytihng in a game easily?you do not want to feel satisfaction of earning things in a game?why are you playing the game then?would there be any purpose to playing a game if it gave you everything from day 1?,no of course not ,there would be no game then,no need for layout or design,because there would be no purpose or goal.You have to look at it from an extreme such as being given everything from day 1 for some of the blind to grasp the concept,because there seems to be no happy medium to please everyone.This is why you just accept the game for its design,quit trying to change a game for your own personal endeavour,you cannot make a game to please everyone,it is 100% impossible.

I am sure there are still people that think selfishly,like the OTHER people in the game do not matter,you cannot cater a game to your self and expect others to also enjoy it ,just because you do,accpt the game that is made or move onto another game that meets your needs,it is a realy simple concept.If none of the dev elopers are making games with instant gratification,then maybe the problem is not the developers,maybe it is the individual,like i said thinking selfishly.