Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by NecroHelium

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by wootin

 

^^QFT save for one point.

Most of the clonage out there, including WoW, aren't MMORPGs either. Because they're not RPGs. You don't "play a character in a story along with many other people", you run a build through missions to gain levels and loot. There's no character-driven decisions that affect the storyline, there's fixed missions and ability-driven decisions made because of your build's defensive and offensive abilities. You could have a preprogrammed robot MMO character choosing missions and actions to maximize it's gains and minimize it's risks and you couldn't tell the difference from the gameplay of most so-called "MMORPG"s.

BioWare is making us a TRUE MMORPG - we will play characters in a story, along with lots of other people at the same time. Our decisions will CHANGE THE STORY that we experience as we play further.

That my friends, makes SWTOR the very first true MMORPG ever created. I can't wait.

 

 

I would have said, 'my friends' that it means SWTOR is the diametric opposite of an MMORPG.

You are forced to play not your own story but a story pre-chosen for you.

That story is selected when you choose your character.

That story does offer you a variety of choices but the choices, it seems, are only one of three kinds. GOOD, BAD and NEUTRAL. Those decisions do NOT CHANGE the story. They just take you through it. If you wish to leave the story, you can't.

This is not a voyage of exploration into new landscapes and new varieties of experience - such as even a game like WoW is. Instead, fromn the details received so far, SWTOR is a game on rails where you can't leave the shuttle bus.

And of course complete lack of story like every mmo out there allows you to make up whatever story for your character you want... but who cares???  You didn't get to experience this story... if you want to make your own story go write a book.

 

Well, that's the whole issue about the game, isn't it?

Is Bioware's idea of making 'Story' the centre of their game a slam-dunk win for TOR? Or a gigantic misjudgement that means limited playability?

 

 

Excellent point Hubert.. 

It does limit play.. You have to follow Bioware's PREDETERMINED path in the game.. Granted you have at times a choice to go bad or good.. but even the choices are predetermined..  Will the game have a good story that limits "MY" story?  Probably, but then I don't RENT books from the library, Especially the same book month after month..

You do realize that every game ever made has a pre-determined path, right?  You might get to choose which path to take first, but it's still a pre-determined path.  I find this argument to be ludicrous at best.

I'm just glad someone is trying to break the mold of the "same old, same old" MMO i feel like i have been playing far too long now...

Just for trying something different, I'll give this game a shot, hopefully they can keep me interested for some time.. If not, perhaps its back to generic MMO # 15 for me.

I totally agree!  I am so tired of the same old format that I welcome what I hope will be a successful deviation.  I'm a big fan of Bioware anyway, so ya'll will please forgive me for being optimistic :) 

Originally posted by Cailieg

Greetings and salutations my fellow gamers,

 

Alexis here, just your average friendly gamer girl with a penchant for wordy yet eloquent replies. Making my splash debut on MMORPG.com in a thread that is based on a jest poll.....Truly one must wonder at my sanity. But here goes. Since it applied here, I reposted this in this thread as well.

 

Bioware is trying something new, and we, as gamers, have grown so accustomed to our acronyms and definitions that we are nervous at the thought of true innovation. Often times it is this mentality, the "you can't break this mould or else bad things are destined to come your way", that splits our communities in half. Nearly as much as our worst debates on time constraints, gear obtainment value, to kill or not to kill another player and all around "this is greater than that" banter.

 

But why is this the case? Why are we, as gamers afraid of innovation in our genres? Why is the threat of "watering down the heart of the genre" such a concern.....to me, it is not. But to many of my fellows it stems from the idea that if a game deviates too far from the core of its genre and then is labeled as something it's not it opens the door for other games of a similar milieu to flood in. Valid concerns all. And sadly something we are already seeing in the MMO genre, with these first person shooter 24 people to a zone max "MMO-lites"..... So why is Bioware different, and how?

 

They tell amazing stories.

 

Bioware has yet to fail me, all of their games, and most of their game derivatives or partnership projects have been among my favorite game experiences. And for me it all began (yea I know I was a late BW fan) with Neverwinter Nights. It was what tore me and my friends away from our multiyear Diablo 2 addiction. Once I had tasted that...I checked out more things with their hand on it or near it. From Baldur's Gate to Planescape: Torment (their engine and a couple of their designers worked on it) to KoToR and then ME. They have never failed to astound me at their storytelling expertise.

 

But will this, this grandiose storytelling, amazing characterization and full voice over, work in my precious MMO genre? Like others I too have my concerns, though, I cannot and will not let them rule me.

 

You see these amazing RPG tools, the stories, the voices, the characterization, is one thing I could never fulfill in my MMO gaming. A closet addiction I have had since EQ1... For these things I had always to go elsewhere. Ever having to separate these two genres I so enjoyed.

 

And now they are to be married together in one game, done by a company that has yet to fail me.

 

Fears or not. I look forward to SW:TOR and to seeing how and if Bioware can accomplish the marriage of these two genres in a single game. Will this game prove to be MMORPG or SPORPG, the jury is out on this, but Bioware promised a fully functioning MMO, they have said this game will possess all the traits of an MMO. Will the single player like aspects of this game override the massive feel?

 

I urge you my fellow gamers, to try and let time tell on this one, rather than caving to your fears about a single player online role playing game. I have yet to be disappointed by this development team, and if they can maintain the massive feel, and add these elements to the game, then I say they may become the new golden standard in the genre.

Alexis Diana Dority
*smiles*
 

This is a courteous, meaningful post that directly addresses the crux of the issue. Are you sure you're not lost? :D

About the MMO part, there's a lot of fixation on "hundreds or thousands of other players at a time". Well, ok, that's MMO, but what is really meaningful in terms of gameplay? Is it watching hundreds or thousands of players run around filling the chat channels? Or is it having hundreds or thousands of players from which to choose the ones who will share a gameplay experience with you?

For me, it's the latter, Just having other people online to play through the game with is enough to satisfy my "MMO" experience. I hope to engage my friends in playing SWTOR (and the MMO format will be very convenient for that, well worth the subscription price to me and hopefully them), and I look forward to making more friends in game.

So for me, the story message (while getting a bit repetitive), really is the draw here, as it is for you. I have been very demoralized by the business entities who put out these games embodying their work methodology in our gameplay. Seriously, just rename "quest" to "task", "kill" to "work output" and "loot" to "credit for accomplishment" and lo - playing their game is just like working in one of their cubicles! lol. So I am very much looking forward to BioWare breaking the mold on the faux "RPG" gameplay that's been sold to (omg) entire generations of MMO gamers these past 10 years.

On the RPG part, Role Playing Game does not mean you play the role of a character in a game and that's it. It means a game in which you play the role of a character in a story. Something you couldn't possibly have picked up from playing most MMOs, unless you were part of an RPG guild that made up and played their own stories.

In closing, I agree that there really isn't anything to fear about BioWare's approach. They're actually going to do the RPG part right, and it's going to make this a really good game to play. Imagine, after completing the game as one class, you can play through again as another and not repeat a single quest. OMG, that's awesome right there. You and your friends can play through this game multiple times and every time, you each get a different experience.

Originally posted by Suvako

I totally agree!  I am so tired of the same old format that I welcome what I hope will be a successful deviation.  I'm a big fan of Bioware anyway, so ya'll will please forgive me for being optimistic :) 

Well said, totally agree.

[Mod Edit] It has been said many times in the last few weeks, that once you leave your starting home world you will not have to follow any of the story if you so choose. Meaning that, you can play TOR just like any MMO. If you choose to follow the story, you can even do so solo or within a group.

Just because you follow the story, it doesn't mean that's all you can do throughout the leveling process. You will be able to go in and out of your personal story anytime you wish. Raiding, crafting, exploration and pvp will be available through out the game as well. Once at max level, you can continue to do those things or wait until new content comes out to continue your own story.

If you decide to roll another toon in a differant class, you will not have to do the same quest's that you had to do for your origional one. They said you won't ever have to do the same content form each class, so starting over will be like a whole new MMO.

[Mod Edit]

Originally posted by Marcus-

I'm just glad someone is trying to break the mold of the "same old, same old" MMO i feel like i have been playing far too long now...

Just for trying something different, I'll give this game a shot, hopefully they can keep me interested for some time.. If not, perhaps its back to generic MMO # 15 for me.

As many have already said I look forward to a deeper storyline and feel of an actual game world to play in aside from what keeps being spawned as some other semi clone of what's currently on the market.

The way I see it,  is if you kill the Captain,  than big deal if the family comes after you later.  Thats the story YOU CHOSE.  If you're playing with a friend and he CHOSE a different story and can't help you with the family later,  than big deal.

If you're worried about choice affecting you later on,  then make good choices that will influience your character accordlingly. 

It really is that simple.  To date,  MMO's have been shallow games that offer nothing more than go to X, Y Coordinates and either kill everything there,  kill everything there till a rare drop comes along,  or deliver package to said X, Y location and get XP and reward.   What Bioware is doing is adding more to the genre and all a few nay sayers are doing is whining about something that we really haven't gotten much info on yet.

Give the game some time,  if you wanted a single player RPG,  then play through whatever you want,  ignoring the raid and MMO aspects of the game,  then then cancel your subscription.

WHAT ?!?

It won't be an MMO where I can PWN and grind instances for mad EPICS?

That sucks ... guess it's back to WoW for ya.

Heaven forbid we see something different.

Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw

Originally posted by zymurgeist 

 

Until you've actually seen the game forming any opinions is silly.

 

My sentiments exactly!

When you read anything about a game, you automatically form an opinion, whether you think you will like it, or not. I think what you mean is that you shouldnt accuse this game of being a fail without seeing it, like the OP did. My opinion is that i will not like this game. I heard a long time ago that lucas arts was working on another SW MMO and I thought, "WOOOHOOO the glory that was PRE-CU SWG WILL RETURN!!!" but alas my hopes were crushed. Im sure this will be a very well made game and it will be alot of fun for alot of people. Just not for me.

Edit: grammar and stuff

My thoughts are that, if one of your friends killed the captain, and one of you didn't, then there are probably two outcomes:

1. Your friend can decide to allign with you and help you, but would cause a negative effect on their path.

or

2. You and your friend can either not help each other at all, or you will be fighting each other for the time being.

Then again, these are just speculations because I have no idea how the game works and how they will logically make the stuff flow together.  I'll state it right here and now that I'm not a Philosophy major so I wouldn't know how to work it.  I just wish other people would admit they're not Philosophy/Logic majors and stop pretending that they know how the logic will play out in the game :P

Originally posted by Rydeson

     I've read and watched many interviews and post by Bioware, and this game is nothing more then KOTOR 3 + internet..  The storyline choice bologna mixed in with online interaction makes things impossible, or illogical..  I"ve read and heard how one starting quest is "killing the captain" or not to kill him, and how those type of choices determine your character as you progress thru what I call a single player RPG.. Let me give you a simple example..  I killed the captain, however my friend did not early on in the game.. I get to a point where a relative or friend of the captain seeks REVENGE upon me.. Does this mean my friend is unable to help me?  Afterall, he's friendly with the capt's friends and family.. whereas I'm hated..  If my friend helps me in the fight, he then should ALSO become hated by the friends and family as well..  SO MUCH about making choices early on?  OR will my confrontation with the family be instanced where my friend cant' come with me.. OR.. even worse.. my friend does help me, yet takes NO faction hit in killing the capt's friend or family..  Meaning that Bioware conviently IGNORES the storyline in sake of grouping with no recource..  Interesting ..

     Personally, I see this is nothing more then RENTING KoTOR 3 monthly to play multiple toons with a lil online mmo tossed in to keep you guessing if it's a mmo or not.. However I think I might re-label it as SWG 2.. Another Star Wars blunder where the game doesn't meet expectations of what the market wants..  I'm still trying to figure out how a person that was LEAD screw up at SOE-Austin (aka SWG)  got the Co-GM spot at Bioware.. I guess it's all about the almighty dollar.. Should we make a KoTOR 3 and charge $59.95 that can be played on the PC, Xbox and PS3?  or should we make the game a lil bigger, add in some mmo stuff (but not much) and charge the same $59.95 plus $14.95 a MONTH every month after.. hmmmmm Lets go with the extended money game.. LOL I suspect this game fails within 2 years after release, but who cares..

 

 

 I HOPE you are wrong, but then again I THINK you are right.

Originally posted by jimmy123

Originally posted by Suvako

I totally agree!  I am so tired of the same old format that I welcome what I hope will be a successful deviation.  I'm a big fan of Bioware anyway, so ya'll will please forgive me for being optimistic :) 

 

Well said, totally agree.

Something new?   COUCH..

Many game reviews have already said this is nothing more then KoTOR 3 with an internet twist..  ONE reviewer that has actually played a demo of SWTOR said the graphics and UI is directly from "Mass Effect"... COUGH..  

There is nothing new here by Bioware.. It's just KoTOR relabed..

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by jimmy123

Originally posted by Suvako

I totally agree!  I am so tired of the same old format that I welcome what I hope will be a successful deviation.  I'm a big fan of Bioware anyway, so ya'll will please forgive me for being optimistic :) 

 

Well said, totally agree.

 

Something new?   COUCH..

Many game reviews have already said this is nothing more then KoTOR 3 with an internet twist..  ONE reviewer that has actually played a demo of SWTOR said the graphics and UI is directly from "Mass Effect"... COUGH..  

There is nothing new here by Bioware.. It's just KoTOR relabed..

And both KoTOR 1 and 2 were absolutely amazing. So what exactly is the problem either way?

I challenge any of all of you on one thing..  For the naysayers believing this will be an MMO, and just not KoTOR 3 monthly rental..

Would you demand a FULL refund on purchase if it turns out to be exactly that.?   And do you honestly think that Bioware is brave enough to offer refunds to customers that wanted a MMO that they promised to deliver?  

As I always say.. "put your money where your mouth is".. If Bioware is true and honest with their discription of this game being a true MMO.. then OFFER a customer satisfaction policy :)  

Originally posted by Mattyb710

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by jimmy123

Originally posted by Suvako

I totally agree!  I am so tired of the same old format that I welcome what I hope will be a successful deviation.  I'm a big fan of Bioware anyway, so ya'll will please forgive me for being optimistic :) 

 

Well said, totally agree.

 

Something new?   COUCH..

Many game reviews have already said this is nothing more then KoTOR 3 with an internet twist..  ONE reviewer that has actually played a demo of SWTOR said the graphics and UI is directly from "Mass Effect"... COUGH..  

There is nothing new here by Bioware.. It's just KoTOR relabed..

And both KoTOR 1 and 2 were absolutely amazing. So what exactly is the problem either way?

The problem here my friend is the deception of passing off a SPORPG (single player online RPG)  as a true MMO.. If you like any of the KoTOR's that is fine.. It's a 1 time charge game, but to deceive the public just to milk more pockets from people expecting a MMO is just wrong..  I do have reason to be hesitant.. afteral, the GM's incharge are the SAME decieptful boys from SWG.. (which we all know was all about deciept).. Heck, look what they do with the expansion.. SELLING it , knowing damn well they were implimenting the NGE shortly after..  You talk about lies and deceipt.. BINGO.. They didnt' even offer refunds for people that bought the expansion and played it for a week..

PS.. I was long gone from SWG before all hell broke loose

Originally posted by Rydeson

I challenge any of all of you on one thing..  For the naysayers believing this will be an MMO, and just not KoTOR 3 monthly rental..

Would you demand a FULL refund on purchase if it turns out to be exactly that.?   And do you honestly think that Bioware is brave enough to offer refunds to customers that wanted a MMO that they promised to deliver?  

As I always say.. "put your money where your mouth is".. If Bioware is true and honest with their discription of this game being a true MMO.. then OFFER a customer satisfaction policy :)  

The abuse would be epic. It's less a matter of "bravery" than foolishness. The costs of processing that many refunds would be epic.  How about this. Don't buy a pig in a poke and if you do take your lumps quietly. We still can't get a consensus on what an MMO is, much less a "true" MMO, how are we to determine what isn't?

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by jimmy123

Originally posted by Suvako

I totally agree!  I am so tired of the same old format that I welcome what I hope will be a successful deviation.  I'm a big fan of Bioware anyway, so ya'll will please forgive me for being optimistic :) 

 

Well said, totally agree.

 

Something new?   COUCH..

Many game reviews have already said this is nothing more then KoTOR 3 with an internet twist..  ONE reviewer that has actually played a demo of SWTOR said the graphics and UI is directly from "Mass Effect"... COUGH..  

There is nothing new here by Bioware.. It's just KoTOR relabed..

Careful, some of these lunatics here will attack you personally for insulting their love child (TOR).

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by jimmy123

Originally posted by Suvako

I totally agree!  I am so tired of the same old format that I welcome what I hope will be a successful deviation.  I'm a big fan of Bioware anyway, so ya'll will please forgive me for being optimistic :) 

 

Well said, totally agree.

 

Something new?   COUCH..

Many game reviews have already said this is nothing more then KoTOR 3 with an internet twist..  ONE reviewer that has actually played a demo of SWTOR said the graphics and UI is directly from "Mass Effect"... COUGH..  

There is nothing new here by Bioware.. It's just KoTOR relabed..

It's a fully voiced game with individual story arcs the outcome of which is affected by your decisions. While that's nothing new for single player games it is unique for a MMO. The difference in the UI from Mass effect is more than one player may contribute to the conversation. That also is as far as I know unique. THe differences may be subtle but they're real.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by jimmy123

Originally posted by Suvako

I totally agree!  I am so tired of the same old format that I welcome what I hope will be a successful deviation.  I'm a big fan of Bioware anyway, so ya'll will please forgive me for being optimistic :) 

 

Well said, totally agree.

 

Something new?   COUCH..

Many game reviews have already said this is nothing more then KoTOR 3 with an internet twist..  ONE reviewer that has actually played a demo of SWTOR said the graphics and UI is directly from "Mass Effect"... COUGH..  

There is nothing new here by Bioware.. It's just KoTOR relabed..

 

It's a fully voiced game ( no offence, but I could give a rats ass if it's voiced or not) with individual story arcs ( EXACTLY the problem.. IF Bioware holds true to this , this means that so many players will be time line split from each other..  UNLESS Bioware has no intent to do this because it restricts grouping.. In that case all thier hype about individual story arcs is just bullshit) the outcome of which is affected by your decisions. While that's nothing new for single player games it is unique for a MMO. ( NOT unique, this was done by Blizzard in WoW's 2 expansion zones.. It's called phasing, which in my opinion SUCKS.. Phasing IMO if very anti mmo friendly) The difference in the UI from Mass effect is more than one player may contribute to the conversation. That also is as far as I know unique. THe differences may be subtle but they're real. (It doesn't matter if one person or many talk to the NPC.. that NPC is programed to a predetermined choice of endings.. PERIOD.... Example is that a group is conversing and the group ends up  "bribing" the npc.. Does it really matter?  That NPC was preprogramed to be a) killed, b) bribed or c) left alone.. )  Furthermore, how can group members converse to the NPC IF they chose a different story arc?  hmmm is that MMO'ish?

Even if it turns out to be as some of you are saying, a story driven online rpg I can play with my friends with constant development and regularly expanded content... hell sounds good to me.  I'd certainly pay a monthly fee for an rpg that never ends.   I've done what most of you regard as the "mmo" circuit for years now.  I'm not really interested in more of the same.  I won't debate what the final product WILL be because it's too early to know, but I will say the only thing I haven't liked about what's been released so far is that they intend to cater to traditional roles to some degree or another.  I'd love to see them go a different way. 

I understand some of you dislike what you speculate will be the finished product, but bear in mind, just because you don't agree with the direction doesn't mean the game will be junk.  For example, I'm totally not a fan of Eve nor Wow, yet they are both very successful games.

I expect however the game turns out, at release it will be a relatively smooth running and engaging piece of work.  That's what Bioware has provided in the past, all the way back when some of them were Black Isle.  I'll respectfully reserve judgement on if the eventual product until its in my paws, but until then, as I've said before, I'm highly optimistic.

 Phasing is actually a very strong MMORPG element. Unfortunately, I doubt other developers have the resources to try and mimic it in their MMORPGs. It is an exceptional story telling too for certain.

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Originally posted by Rydeson

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Originally posted by Mattyb710

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Originally posted by Rydeson

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Originally posted by jimmy123

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Originally posted by Suvako

I totally agree!  I am so tired of the same old format that I welcome what I hope will be a successful deviation.  I'm a big fan of Bioware anyway, so ya'll will please forgive me for being optimistic :) 

---

 
Well said, totally agree.

---

 
Something new?   COUCH..
Many game reviews have already said this is nothing more then KoTOR 3 with an internet twist..  ONE reviewer that has actually played a demo of SWTOR said the graphics and UI is directly from "Mass Effect"... COUGH..  
There is nothing new here by Bioware.. It's just KoTOR relabed..

---

And both KoTOR 1 and 2 were absolutely amazing. So what exactly is the problem either way?

---

 
The problem here my friend is the deception of passing off a SPORPG (single player online RPG)  as a true MMO.. If you like any of the KoTOR's that is fine.. It's a 1 time charge game, but to deceive the public just to milk more pockets from people expecting a MMO is just wrong..  I do have reason to be hesitant.. afteral, the GM's incharge are the SAME decieptful boys from SWG.. (which we all know was all about deciept).. Heck, look what they do with the expansion.. SELLING it , knowing damn well they were implimenting the NGE shortly after..  You talk about lies and deceipt.. BINGO.. They didnt' even offer refunds for people that bought the expansion and played it for a week..
PS.. I was long gone from SWG before all hell broke loose

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Do you "think" the crew from Bioware/Lucasarts are stupid ?

They will be trying to put something new on the stagnant MMO market, and here people are arguing if this game really is worthy the MMORPG title or not.

Will the game be diffrent ? ....Yes hopefully
Will it use instances ? ....Most likely(the only known way of accomplishing the things Bioware is trying)
1
Maybe since it's the first time a game company tries something as advanced as this, it will create another game title for this sort of game, but until the world knows how STOR will play out at all, I guess it is valid to atleast call it an MMORPG..

I am interested to know why some of you upset by the story elements and player driven choices seem to be fine with traditional quest mechanics yet they are essentially the same thing as what Bioware is likely to do.  How many times have you killed a specific boss, that by all accounts should already be dead from a prior engagement?  Really, are you upset about continuity or is the fear that you'll somehow be unable to tackle content with your friends due to different positions in a story arc?  If it's the latter, I'm not sure why you'd assume Bioware will handle that aspect in such a way that will limit your experience.  The most obvious approach, if there is any limitation at all,  would be to base accessable content upon the group leader's position in the story arc.  Again, seems a lot of angst over speculation.