Originally posted by zWolf

Originally posted by AgtSmith

  It simply defies reason to believe they are going through all of this because it is somehow going to resurrect a dead 3+ year old game, clearly they are doing it to get the RMT model down for their other stuff in a way that uses the players to subsidize development.

 

IThink that I'm getting the point of your arguments, not necessarily to 'tear down' DDO or anything, but rather to say 'hey look guys, a major motivation for this move, is to test RMT's in the RPG/MMO world.'

Well sir, on that we can agree - I think so as well, as a matter of fact during the first read through of the announcement, I Was contemplating how they would bring this to LOTRO. (and as for those who will cry 'no! they said they wouldn't do that!", well, I've been around too long to buy into what the current crop of community liaisons 'say' will or 'won't' happen... in the end, it's all about the Benjamin’s.)

I was thinking the other day, how is Turbine going to keep making $$'s off all the folks that have these life time subscriptions? Then shortly after, I read their announcement about DDO and the light bulb went off! Aha! Now THERE is something that could work! And micro T's to the mix and presto! New money for Development!

That said, (anyone else reading this and disagreeing with it,) don't waste too much breath arguing that will never happen, I'm pretty un-effected either way... just as long as the servers stay up heh.

Anyway, Agent Smith has put forth plenty of reasoning behind the fact that this RMT testing in DDO could be for a number of projects! Well, in this 'new world' of gaming (not so new now is it.. but it still seems like not long ago that I was logging in to UO for the beta test heh,) in this 'new world' I figure there will be plenty of 'experiments'. I look forward to the evolution of the art!

May we all have our 'happy moments' of gaming.

zWolf -out.

 

I'm not going to say it won't happen to LOTRO but I am pretty sure Turbine would completely screw themselves if they went to RMT in LOTRO as they are in DDO. Just for the simple fact that anyone who paid lifetime would say "Screw Turbine, I'll never trust or buy from them ever again." They would post anywhere and everywhere to stay away from this company.

The MMO community will know if Turbine completely f-ed up or if it was a smart move with in 6 months after this goes live.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

I won't be surprised when they change it, but its the truth. Right now you can play the game enough to buy all the content with free points. Now you can shoot the messenger or not. Up to you.

You may need to play 50 characters just to earn enough points, but its possible and that's how it works right now. Shouting at the mountain and lecturing me on business doesn't change anything. All it does is show just how stubborn you are.

So you are saying that you can not only make "50" characters now (old limit was what, 6 to 8) but that you can pool the earned points from all toons and spend on one toon?  I just don't believe that, sorry.  And I know I read in the initial comments that character slots where being reduced and extra slots would cost money - so there goes that theory.

 

You can always delete characters and make them again. Turbine Points are tied to your account.

I'd be willing to bet that most of my 4th grade students would have been able to figure that one out for themselves.

Turbine clarified that content unlocked is account wide, but earned Turbine points are not in an account wide pool of use. Someone had said they could easily run a character to 100 Favor in an hour and then delete and Turbine said the points that are earned by a character in game are for that character to spend only. The content they unlock would be account wide though.
 

 

Instead of tossing snide little insults, research better.

Rok, you're welcome to show me where they said that. What I am telling you is how it works on the beta servers right now. If you want to back up what you're saying that is great and you won't get any snide comments. Lecturing me on business and how much you don't trust Turbine is not productive at all. I want to know how their system works just as much as anybody. I have had the opportunity to play the game on a friend's system. I can tell you what I saw without being bound by a NDA. You're welcome to fire up a beta account and prove or disprove the things I say all you want. I'll welcome a second look.

Do you really think AgtSmith thought of rerolls when he made that comment? Obviously not given his reply. Snide remarks were earned. If he is going to tell me I am wrong, I do expect at least a little common sense.

Originally posted by zWolf

Anyway, Agent Smith has put forth plenty of reasoning behind the fact that this RMT testing in DDO could be for a number of projects! Well, in this 'new world' of gaming (not so new now is it.. but it still seems like not long ago that I was logging in to UO for the beta test heh,) in this 'new world' I figure there will be plenty of 'experiments'. I look forward to the evolution of the art!

That may have some significance if they hadn't been saying that already in multiple interviews about the game.

And he says DDO was a "perfect fit" for Turbine to start working with alternative business models, and it made much more sense to the company to try a new business model with an existing, successful title than to import and adapt an Asian game or build an entirely new one.

And for future titles...

And Turbine hopes to be able to use the lessons from DDO’s transition for other projects. "LOTRO is not designed for this," he says. "And we’re not talking about our console projects, but clearly, getting a better sense of how microtransactions work in a persistent online world is going to help our console project down the line."

Originally posted by Aganazer 

Do you really think AgtSmith thought of rerolls when he made that comment? Obviously not given his reply. Snide remarks were earned. If he is going to tell me I am wrong, I do expect at least a little common sense.

I stand by what I said to the letter, if you think that a F2P game can survive if you can just play the game normally and earn through play all they are trying to sell then you deserve the criticism I steered your way.  Whether or not some cockamamie way exists to make a toon and do some stuff, delete him and do again, delete and do again it really irrelevant because financially the game cannot work if that is possible so it is not going to go live with such a thing possible (not to mention the shear silliness of suggesting that that is a path to business success or even popularity as how many people would do that).  All of which goes to my broader point that this is about testing and developing a viable RMT model for other games/projects and not about 'improving' DDO.

Originally posted by seabass2003 

I'm not going to say it won't happen to LOTRO but I am pretty sure Turbine would completely screw themselves if they went to RMT in LOTRO as they are in DDO. Just for the simple fact that anyone who paid lifetime would say "Screw Turbine, I'll never trust or buy from them ever again." They would post anywhere and everywhere to stay away from this company.

The MMO community will know if Turbine completely f-ed up or if it was a smart move with in 6 months after this goes live.

They are going to have to do something in LotRO.  While certainly not suffering for subs like DDo was the issue with LotRO now is all those lifetimes they sold are now free players so LotRO is going to be drawing significantly less revenue now than another games with comparable subscription numbers because lifetime sub folks do not pay anything each month.  Add in the financial and economic crisis and this really has to make LotRO practically much harder on Turbine than it otherwise would or should be for its level of success.  RMT could get that revenue stream back up to a more normal level, but to do it they need a testbed to work out the limits and various systems.

Originally posted by Aganazer 

 

That may have some significance if they hadn't been saying that already in multiple interviews about the game.

The significance is not in realizing or saying that DDO is a testbed for future/other games, it is in the implication of a developer charging for what amounts to testing of their development (and not being honest about it).  It is also significant just from the standpoint of honesty, so much of games are begin ruined by spin and BS from developers that I think we as gamers have to fight adn argue when they pull this kind of stuff and demand they at least use honest language and quit the triple talk and spin.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

I won't be surprised when they change it, but its the truth. Right now you can play the game enough to buy all the content with free points. Now you can shoot the messenger or not. Up to you.

You may need to play 50 characters just to earn enough points, but its possible and that's how it works right now. Shouting at the mountain and lecturing me on business doesn't change anything. All it does is show just how stubborn you are.

So you are saying that you can not only make "50" characters now (old limit was what, 6 to 8) but that you can pool the earned points from all toons and spend on one toon?  I just don't believe that, sorry.  And I know I read in the initial comments that character slots where being reduced and extra slots would cost money - so there goes that theory.

 

You can always delete characters and make them again. Turbine Points are tied to your account.

I'd be willing to bet that most of my 4th grade students would have been able to figure that one out for themselves.

Turbine clarified that content unlocked is account wide, but earned Turbine points are not in an account wide pool of use. Someone had said they could easily run a character to 100 Favor in an hour and then delete and Turbine said the points that are earned by a character in game are for that character to spend only. The content they unlock would be account wide though.
 

 

Instead of tossing snide little insults, research better.

 

Rok, you're welcome to show me where they said that. What I am telling you is how it works on the beta servers right now. If you want to back up what you're saying that is great and you won't get any snide comments. Lecturing me on business and how much you don't trust Turbine is not productive at all. I want to know how their system works just as much as anybody. I have had the opportunity to play the game on a friend's system. I can tell you what I saw without being bound by a NDA. You're welcome to fire up a beta account and prove or disprove the things I say all you want. I'll welcome a second look.

Do you really think AgtSmith thought of rerolls when he made that comment? Obviously not given his reply. Snide remarks were earned. If he is going to tell me I am wrong, I do expect at least a little common sense.

DDO forums under the DDO unlimited or check the dev tracker. Tolero stated that earned for favor and gameplay Turbine points will not be accound wide. This was in response to the idea of running to 100 favor over and over until you could unlock all the content. It was said that bought Turbine points are account wide and earned one are not.
 

I will not beta this or any game.

That makes perfect sense - it is just like favor works.  It would be logical that in the end, if not allready, it works pretty much like favor does.  Per character, per first run of a quest difficulty, and not transferable - anything else would be easily exploited and farmed.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

DDO forums under the DDO unlimited or check the dev tracker. Tolero stated that earned for favor and gameplay Turbine points will not be accound wide. This was in response to the idea of running to 100 favor over and over until you could unlock all the content. It was said that bought Turbine points are account wide and earned one are not.

Do you mind linking that info? I found this post  from Tolero saying very specifically that Turbine Points are account wide.

To quote Tolero:

You'll still be able to earn the points on anything you haven't run yet (i.e. the things that are coming in 9, 10, and so on)

Also, even if you fill up all your characters favor on one server, remember that points you earn apply to your account, which can be handy if you were full up on one server, dont want to open more slots, and have room on alternate servers

The points can be from other servers! You don't even have to delete characters that much because the points can come from characters spread out across all the servers.

Tolero even clarifies it in this post where he points out that favor points are per character, but turbine points are per account.

Its also been confirmed from multiple sources that you will be able to level from 1-20 completely for free. It has been confirmed that content unlocks (adventure packs) are account wide. So even if points were per character, the content bought from that character would apply to your account. Its also been confirmed that there are tradable guest passes allowing free players to try the paid adventure packs for a limited time.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

DDO forums under the DDO unlimited or check the dev tracker. Tolero stated that earned for favor and gameplay Turbine points will not be accound wide. This was in response to the idea of running to 100 favor over and over until you could unlock all the content. It was said that bought Turbine points are account wide and earned one are not.

 

Do you mind linking that info? I found this post  from Tolero saying very specifically that Turbine Points are account wide.

To quote Tolero:

You'll still be able to earn the points on anything you haven't run yet (i.e. the things that are coming in 9, 10, and so on)

Also, even if you fill up all your characters favor on one server, remember that points you earn apply to your account, which can be handy if you were full up on one server, dont want to open more slots, and have room on alternate servers

The points can be from other servers! You don't even have to delete characters that much because the points can come from characters spread out across all the servers.

Tolero even clarifies it in this post where he points out that favor points are per character, but turbine points are per account.

Its also been confirmed from multiple sources that you will be able to level from 1-20 completely for free. It has been confirmed that content unlocks (adventure packs) are account wide. So even if points were per character, the content bought from that character would apply to your account. Its also been confirmed that there are tradable guest passes allowing free players to try the paid adventure packs for a limited time.

Per Tolero the day before your quote so they are contradicting themselves one day apart:
 

"There isn't a retroactive Turbine Points grant on favor you already earned before DDO Unlimited, but if say you're like at 1750, you'd start earning the points on the rest of the favor as you climb past 1750.

I should also clarify that I don't think the article worded it correctly. You don't earn the points for doing the quests AND the favor, they probably got confused about favor points vs turbine points You get the Turbine Points for earning favor, and you earn favor by running the quests.

Even though you don't get the retroactive points, you will get your VIP month points right off the bat once DDO Unlimited starts

Post Script: Oh and the favor points are per character, but your VIP monthly stipend is per account. "
 

Ok Rok speaking again, the last line is the important part. Aganazer you misquoted Tolero. She says favor points are per character AKA the Turbine points you get for favor, then she clearly says the monthly VIP stipend is account wide. Big difference.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

DDO forums under the DDO unlimited or check the dev tracker. Tolero stated that earned for favor and gameplay Turbine points will not be accound wide. This was in response to the idea of running to 100 favor over and over until you could unlock all the content. It was said that bought Turbine points are account wide and earned one are not.

 

Do you mind linking that info? I found this post  from Tolero saying very specifically that Turbine Points are account wide.

To quote Tolero:

You'll still be able to earn the points on anything you haven't run yet (i.e. the things that are coming in 9, 10, and so on)

Also, even if you fill up all your characters favor on one server, remember that points you earn apply to your account, which can be handy if you were full up on one server, dont want to open more slots, and have room on alternate servers

The points can be from other servers! You don't even have to delete characters that much because the points can come from characters spread out across all the servers.

Tolero even clarifies it in this post where he points out that favor points are per character, but turbine points are per account.

Its also been confirmed from multiple sources that you will be able to level from 1-20 completely for free. It has been confirmed that content unlocks (adventure packs) are account wide. So even if points were per character, the content bought from that character would apply to your account. Its also been confirmed that there are tradable guest passes allowing free players to try the paid adventure packs for a limited time.

Per Tolero the day before your quote so they are contradicting themselves one day apart:
 

 

"There isn't a retroactive Turbine Points grant on favor you already earned before DDO Unlimited, but if say you're like at 1750, you'd start earning the points on the rest of the favor as you climb past 1750.

I should also clarify that I don't think the article worded it correctly. You don't earn the points for doing the quests AND the favor, they probably got confused about favor points vs turbine points You get the Turbine Points for earning favor, and you earn favor by running the quests.

Even though you don't get the retroactive points, you will get your VIP month points right off the bat once DDO Unlimited starts

Post Script: Oh and the favor points are per character, but your VIP monthly stipend is per account. "
 

Ok Rok speaking again, the last line is the important part. Aganazer you misquoted Tolero. She says favor points are per character AKA the Turbine points you get for favor, then she clearly says the monthly VIP stipend is account wide. Big difference.

I do think that some clarification is needed, but I read that and found no contradiction. From the context it appears she is using "Favor" and "Favor Points" synonymously. Think about it. Have you ever heard a dev mention purchasing anything with "Favor Points"? No, they always refer to "Turbine Points". She clearly states that you get "Turbine Points" for earning favor. She doesn't say that you get Favor Points by earning favor. There never was a contradiction, just some poor writing.

I think I know where you got the idea that she meant something else. Its from that last post in the thread about abusing the system that linked both posts pointing out the contradiction. Whoever created that post with the two links read it wrong. Then you followed their links preloaded with the idea that that she was contradicting herself.

Are you at least willing to admit that there is a possibility that you're wrong about favor earned Turbine Points being bound to your character? The only misquoting I did was assuming Tolero is a 'he' and not a 'she'.

To quote Tolero:

You'll still be able to earn the points on anything you haven't run yet (i.e. the things that are coming in 9, 10, and so on)

Also, even if you fill up all your characters favor on one server, remember that points you earn apply to your account, which can be handy if you were full up on one server, dont want to open more slots, and have room on alternate serversr

I think the more notable thing here is that you only get the points for the first run through.  So with limited content the whole paying your way through with points is really a moot point as from what he says there you get the points on first run only and for those already in game you only get the points on new stuff so vets will have very few things that will give them these points.

But details aside, I think it is pretty safe to say that the system has to be such that you cannot earn your way through and get all, or even close to all, you could if you paid - otherwise it would be a recipe for failure not matter how you slice it.

Originally posted by Aganazer 

Its also been confirmed from multiple sources that you will be able to level from 1-20 completely for free. It has been confirmed that content unlocks (adventure packs) are account wide.

This I just don't believe not matter waht anyone at Turbine says.  First of all, if they scale XP for 17-20 the way it is scaled 1-16 then there is very possibly not enough content in game to get to 20 with VIP access.  Consider that the long delay here has many people who have run much of the content so many times that they now get 0 XP per run so the only thing that would give them more XP in game is wahtever new content they add with the DDO Unlimited launch of from the MOD 9 BS it is hard to see it being enough unless they just hand out XP like mad.  We shall see, but I seriously do not believe you are going 1-20 for free unless they are completely redoing XP and quest rewards, like capping the XP penalty for repition to 50% or higher so that you can get something from doing the same stuff over and over.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

To quote Tolero:

You'll still be able to earn the points on anything you haven't run yet (i.e. the things that are coming in 9, 10, and so on)

Also, even if you fill up all your characters favor on one server, remember that points you earn apply to your account, which can be handy if you were full up on one server, dont want to open more slots, and have room on alternate serversr

I think the more notable thing here is that you only get the points for the first run through.  So with limited content the whole paying your way through with points is really a moot point as from what he says there you get the points on first run only and for those already in game you only get the points on new stuff so vets will have very few things that will give them these points.

AgtSmith, your reading comprehension is worse than every one of my 4th grade students. You get favor for the first run through on each character. The key being each character. You can then get Turbine Points by earning favor. Tolero even suggests creating multiple alts to gain additional Turbine Points. They even tell you how to work around the 2 free characters per server limit!

But details aside, I think it is pretty safe to say that the system has to be such that you cannot earn your way through and get all, or even close to all, you could if you paid - otherwise it would be a recipe for failure not matter how you slice it.

Haven't you read any of the 4 and more sources I have cited that tell you that you can buy all the game's content with free points? How much evidence do you need? What would it take? Quit being stubborn and open your eyes man!

Originally posted by Aganazer 

Its also been confirmed from multiple sources that you will be able to level from 1-20 completely for free. It has been confirmed that content unlocks (adventure packs) are account wide.

This I just don't believe not matter waht anyone at Turbine says.  First of all, if they scale XP for 17-20 the way it is scaled 1-16 then there is very possibly not enough content in game to get to 20 with VIP access.  Consider that the long delay here has many people who have run much of the content so many times that they now get 0 XP per run so the only thing that would give them more XP in game is wahtever new content they add with the DDO Unlimited launch of from the MOD 9 BS it is hard to see it being enough unless they just hand out XP like mad.  We shall see, but I seriously do not believe you are going 1-20 for free unless they are completely redoing XP and quest rewards, like capping the XP penalty for repition to 50% or higher so that you can get something from doing the same stuff over and over.

 

You will be able to level from 1-20 without spending a dime. They have said this in multiple interviews. They have said this on the beta forums. Its one of the fundamental features of the free to play option.

I can see that it would take an act of god to convince you of these things. I've said it before and I'll say it again. AgtSmith, you post nothing but half truths and misinformation with the intention of causing drama or defaming whatever it is you are talking about. Under some circumstances this is called libel and is illegal. Around here its just called trolling.

Aganazer:  You are mistaken on one point - after 3 repeats the amount of xp drops [IIRC by 10% per run] each run.

However, you are correct in that the xp never drops to 0.  One person in beta said he was still only -90% as a level 16 in a level 1 dungeon!  It might take near forever to get enough xp to get to 20 as a F2P, but technically, it could be done.

Although I'm not new to MMORPG's, I am new to DDO and Dungeons and Dragons on the whole. I've played LOTRO and enjoyed it. Its a lovely looking game too, so for me, the draw to try DDO out is that at some point in the future there will be a decent quality free MMO.

I can't afford subs to lots of games which means that DDO can be the occasional game that I too crave. It may even be my number one game if I enjoy it!

I'm falling into the 'tired and jaded' category more and more these days. A good F2P game is good news.

My trial character is a Monk though... I'll need to look at that lol

Originally posted by uncus

Aganazer:  You are mistaken on one point - after 3 repeats the amount of xp drops [IIRC by 10% per run] each run.

However, you are correct in that the xp never drops to 0.  One person in beta said he was still only -90% as a level 16 in a level 1 dungeon!  It might take near forever to get enough xp to get to 20 as a F2P, but technically, it could be done.

Ahh.. thanks for clearing that up. I know you get bonus XP for running it for the first time on each difficulty, but I never saw any reduction for multiple runs. I never repeated a quest more than 3 times and my friend got to level cap before repeating anything enough times to notice.  I do know that the rerun counter doesn't increase after you reach the level cap, so the level 16 players won't be seeing any penalties for rerun's after reaching the cap. When they raise the level cap,  they will be able to rerun their old quests that they ran 1000's of times at max level and still get full XP.

I thought that -90% comment was about being over-leveled for a dungeon rather than having run it so many times? Call it a hunch but I don't think that is what they mean when they say you can level 1-20 for free.

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

AgtSmith, your reading comprehension is worse than every one of my 4th grade students. You get favor for the first run through on each character. The key being each character. You can then get Turbine Points by earning favor. Tolero even suggests creating multiple alts to gain additional Turbine Points. They even tell you how to work around the 2 free characters per server limit!

I am sorry that you are having trouble making your case but attacking and namecalling doesn't really help bolster a weak argument.  I read what you said and a lot of what turbine has said, aside from there being contradictions and a lack of clarity I just don't believe all I read from them nor do I agree with the conclusions and analysis you draw.

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

Haven't you read any of the 4 and more sources I have cited that tell you that you can buy all the game's content with free points? How much evidence do you need? What would it take? Quit being stubborn and open your eyes man!

 

Since all 'sources' rely on Turbine I simply do not believe them, Turbine said for how long that MOD 9 was eminent or at least on its way, and they boldface lied when saying their RMT hires where not for existing games.  InN short, Turbine is a bunch of dishonest liars.  It is their MO to things about F2P DDO now that sound good to garner hype and interest only to change them later to suit their purposes.

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

You will be able to level from 1-20 without spending a dime. They have said this in multiple interviews. They have said this on the beta forums. Its one of the fundamental features of the free to play option.

Again, says the Turbine who is know to boldface lie in order to create hype and avoid hard truths.

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

I can see that it would take an act of god to convince you of these things. I've said it before and I'll say it again. AgtSmith, you post nothing but half truths and misinformation with the intention of causing drama or defaming whatever it is you are talking about. Under some circumstances this is called libel and is illegal. Around here its just called trolling.

Not an act of God, more an act of ignorance because you have to be ignorant of how Turbine operates to believe much of what they say especially when marketting or hype is invovled as is the case leading up to DDO Unlimited.

And for the record, accusing me of a crime falsely is in and of tiself defamation so I would apoligze unless you can prove your accusation (which you cannot because your accusation was false).

Originally posted by AgtSmith

 

Back to the RMT-F2P thing, consider a silly analogy.  Think of a McDonald's burger that is selling very poorly.  So the McDonald's execs hold a big press conference ad state that the problem is the pricing methodology.  So instead of selling the burger for $0.99 as they did before they are going to re-price things as follows:

burger patty - $0.39 (cooked is extra $0.19)
bun - $0.29 (sesame seeds is extra $0.9)
pickles, lettuce, onions - $0.9 ea.
mayo, mustard, ketchup, special sauce - $0.9 ea.

 

They go on in the press conference to say how the taste will remain the same, the service will as well, and the ingredients will be identical because those are not the problem in fact they are the best in the business.  Tell me this is something any half brained twit graduating from night business school would think is a good idea and keep in mind that McDonald;s doesn't have to outlay tons of cash building new grills and stuff to make this change (as DDO has to do lots of development to make their change).  But this is what we are to believe from Turbine, that they believe the game as it is is something people will love, even though 3 + years of subscribers and free trials has led the game to the very sewers of MMOs, just like it is if they can only carve it up in to smaller pieces and sell those pieces individually for what amounts in the end to a higher price.  ???  Sorry, but that is insane ever for the IP killers at Turbine.  The only reasonable explination is that they figure enough of the vets will still sub and the F2P thing will amount to enough subsidy to test an RMT model for other projects.  This is not about repacking a turd as mini turds and selling them off, this is about building systems for their other games plain and simple.

This analogy is poor, but I like analogies so I will do one of my own.

VIP Members at McDonalds- Get everything on the menu for free, they can come in, use the drive through, use the restrooms, absolutely everything is available. Okay technically not free for this because they pay the monthly fee but we know they have all of McDonalds available.

Free Members at McDonalds- Get to come in the store, look around, sit down at the tables, mingle with other customers, use the restrooms, read the menu and these things. If they want to eat they pay a small fee for what is available on the menu or for service or whatever else McDonalds offers.

So while the VIP's have everything available the free player just purchases what he/she likes off the menu but doesn't purchase anything he doesn't need or want.

The more I think about this model the more I see it succeeding but as I've said before we will just have to wait and see if it works out as planned.

Originally posted by uncus

Aganazer:  You are mistaken on one point - after 3 repeats the amount of xp drops [IIRC by 10% per run] each run.

However, you are correct in that the xp never drops to 0.  One person in beta said he was still only -90% as a level 16 in a level 1 dungeon!  It might take near forever to get enough xp to get to 20 as a F2P, but technically, it could be done.

I believe there is also a timer in the same way as looted chests, so the repeating would have to be in quick succession.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Ahh.. thanks for clearing that up. I know you get bonus XP for running it for the first time on each difficulty, but I never saw any reduction for multiple runs. I never repeated a quest more than 3 times and my friend got to level cap before repeating anything enough times to notice.  I do know that the rerun counter doesn't increase after you reach the level cap, so the level 16 players won't be seeing any penalties for rerun's after reaching the cap. When they raise the level cap,  they will be able to rerun their old quests that they ran 1000's of times at max level and still get full XP.

I thought that -90% comment was about being over-leveled for a dungeon rather than having run it so many times? Call it a hunch but I don't think that is what they mean when they say you can level 1-20 for free.

Now who is making stuff up, DDO discounts XP payouts per successive run (past the first run at a particular difficulty).  The penalty is substantial too, once you have run a quest even a few times the penalty to awarded XP really does take a toll.  Now, unless they change the XP penalty system, an exception I noted in my comments saying that it was likely impossible to level to 20 based just on the content that was in the game, there is a penalty for each successive run past the first run per difficulty.  Again, if they change this in the F2P then what I said doesn't count but at the same time, one has to really question the value of doing the same quests over and over and over and over each time getting less and less XP.  This is probably the single biggest fault of the game beyond the all instanced and other non traditional MMO stuff.

Originally posted by seabass2003

This analogy is poor, but I like analogies so I will do one of my own.

VIP Members at McDonalds- Get everything on the menu for free, they can come in, use the drive through, use the restrooms, absolutely everything is available. Okay technically not free for this because they pay the monthly fee but we know they have all of McDonalds available.

Free Members at McDonalds- Get to come in the store, look around, sit down at the tables, mingle with other customers, use the restrooms, read the menu and these things. If they want to eat they pay a small fee for what is available on the menu or for service or whatever else McDonalds offers.

So while the VIP's have everything available the free player just purchases what he/she likes off the menu but doesn't purchase anything he doesn't need or want.

The more I think about this model the more I see it succeeding but as I've said before we will just have to wait and see if it works out as planned.

I don't think you analogy is very good at all.  for one, McDonald's doesn't currently price the VIP way say in your analogy the new pricing schemes are for totally new things that they even offered before.  Secondly, from what turbine has said already VIP doesn't get you full access it just gets you most all of what you currently have but there are lots of things they are adding to the cash shop that will require RMT, or at least the turbine points, to be spent (first big one I am thinking of is the in quest resurrections, a big game changing new addition).  Also, on my analogy, the more important point I was making, was that the F2P is really just a smokescreen as they are really just taking the same thing form before and pricing it differently to try to make it seem new when in the end it is not new at all, at least not on substance.  As for your analogy, you have to modify several things aside from what I said earlier - the customers are not free to roam the restaurant and talk to customers as both of those are restricted as are most all things similarly restricted (chat, classes, races, logon priority, etc, etc, etc).  Furthermore, you are not paying some small fee to get what you want you are paying an inflated fee, even Turbine has said that if you buy separately through cash shop the things that made-up a subscription you will pay notably more.

Look, there is no free lunch,  I know that today in particular it is popular to hope in a change to that idiom but it is a universal reality.  Turbine is not making DDO free to play, they are charging people a different way to play and if you seriously doubt this then you really need a reality check.  Furthermore, the likelihood that this failed old game is going to see some kind of revival is ridiculous, people didn't bail on DDO because of its cost they bailed on it because they either did not like the game or thought that it was not worth paying to play - just as a SP game is not worth paying to play and no matter who is silly enough to buy the marketing BS about it becoming free to play DDO will not be free to play, they will just be charging to play in a different way.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Look, there is no free lunch,  I know that today in particular it is popular to hope in a change to that idiom but it is a universal reality.  Turbine is not making DDO free to play, they are charging people a different way to play and if you seriously doubt this then you really need a reality check.  Furthermore, the likelihood that this failed old game is going to see some kind of revival is ridiculous, people didn't bail on DDO because of its cost they bailed on it because they either did not like the game or thought that it was not worth paying to play - just as a SP game is not worth paying to play and no matter who is silly enough to buy the marketing BS about it becoming free to play DDO will not be free to play, they will just be charging to play in a different way.

There is also a big difference between what is possible and what is practical. They have said that leveling to 20 is possible to do without spending a dime, but that doesn't mean it will be desireable. As an analogy, I suppose I could WALK from my home in Atlanta all the way to Los Angeles, but I'd probably just take an airplane (VIP), drive (buy all the content I need), or hitchhike (buy the bare minimum).

And did you just say that a single player game isn't worth paying to play? Do you pirate all your games or something? I have payed more to play single player games than I have MMOG's.

This game is a 'must try it out' when it goes f2p

I've heard it is very casual friendly :o , so it might be my game for next year

If I like it I would even spend some money on it ^^

Originally posted by Dr.Rock

Originally posted by uncus

Aganazer:  You are mistaken on one point - after 3 repeats the amount of xp drops [IIRC by 10% per run] each run.

However, you are correct in that the xp never drops to 0.  One person in beta said he was still only -90% as a level 16 in a level 1 dungeon!  It might take near forever to get enough xp to get to 20 as a F2P, but technically, it could be done.

I believe there is also a timer in the same way as looted chests, so the repeating would have to be in quick succession.

No the amount of time between repeats does not effect the XP in any way.

Originally posted by uncus

Aganazer:  You are mistaken on one point - after 3 repeats the amount of xp drops [IIRC by 10% per run] each run.

However, you are correct in that the xp never drops to 0.  One person in beta said he was still only -90% as a level 16 in a level 1 dungeon!  It might take near forever to get enough xp to get to 20 as a F2P, but technically, it could be done.

This is wrong. Unless the are changing the mechanic for the F2P as a higher level if you go into a low level quest you will see in red NO EXP GIVEN on the quest update log.

Originally posted by Aganazer 

 

And did you just say that a single player game isn't worth paying to play? Do you pirate all your games or something? I have payed more to play single player games than I have MMOG's.

Of course I was talking about an ongoing charge to play, obviously yu are buying an MMO or SP game as it is a commercial product - the difference I was referring to is the ongoing cost to play involved with MMOs.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by uncus

Aganazer:  You are mistaken on one point - after 3 repeats the amount of xp drops [IIRC by 10% per run] each run.

However, you are correct in that the xp never drops to 0.  One person in beta said he was still only -90% as a level 16 in a level 1 dungeon!  It might take near forever to get enough xp to get to 20 as a F2P, but technically, it could be done.

 

This is wrong. Unless the are changing the mechanic for the F2P as a higher level if you go into a low level quest you will see in red NO EXP GIVEN on the quest update log.

That is correct on the current LIVE version - as I mention above, there IS a change to xp given in the BETA.  A person stated that in the beta [the to be f2p test] xp only dropped to -90% for being over level.

Edit: I do not know if re-running will drop the xp to 0.  AFAIK currently on LIVE it does not, so I expect it will not in the BETA, either.  I may be mistaken - I have never run any dungeon to the point of ransack...

The argument is really a moot point as the reality of the situation is that anyone who has played DDO will attest to the how these quests really lose their luster after even just a couple times doing them.  So the idea that people are going to grind static quests over and over and over to garner XP to level for free is silly.  Sure, there may be some who do this but I think any reasonable person would argue that much of anyone wants to do Waterworks 50 times, free or not.