kill or not to kill... It realy doesn't matter. In the timeline the captain is still dead. Not by your hand, but by your friend's. So even if you let him live, you cant go back and talk to him. They could tell it this way:

Kill line (Your friend)
He stand before the captain and kill him. The End.

Live line (you):
You stand before the captain and let him live.
He thanks you, but as he turns around, he is killed by a sniper. The End

Later on, your friend is confronted with the kill by a bounty hunter send by the family. But since it is your friend you help him, because you don't want him to die. Nothing wrong with that... And it's not like the family will get to know that you helped to kill the bounty hunter they send. Who's gonna telt? The dead bounty hunter?

Even later you are confronted by a bounty hunter because you didn't kill the captain, and they had to pay another person to do the job. They then send this hunter to get that money from you. You (and your friend) can then choose to pay up, or kill the bounty hunter...

You can still go and visit the greeving family.

Originally posted by Rydeson

     I've read and watched many interviews and post by Bioware, and this game is nothing more then KOTOR 3 + internet..  The storyline choice bologna mixed in with online interaction makes things impossible, or illogical..  I"ve read and heard how one starting quest is "killing the captain" or not to kill him, and how those type of choices determine your character as you progress thru what I call a single player RPG.. Let me give you a simple example..  I killed the captain, however my friend did not early on in the game.. I get to a point where a relative or friend of the captain seeks REVENGE upon me.. Does this mean my friend is unable to help me?  Afterall, he's friendly with the capt's friends and family.. whereas I'm hated..  If my friend helps me in the fight, he then should ALSO become hated by the friends and family as well..  SO MUCH about making choices early on?  OR will my confrontation with the family be instanced where my friend cant' come with me.. OR.. even worse.. my friend does help me, yet takes NO faction hit in killing the capt's friend or family..  Meaning that Bioware conviently IGNORES the storyline in sake of grouping with no recource..  Interesting ..

     Personally, I see this is nothing more then RENTING KoTOR 3 monthly to play multiple toons with a lil online mmo tossed in to keep you guessing if it's a mmo or not.. However I think I might re-label it as SWG 2.. Another Star Wars blunder where the game doesn't meet expectations of what the market wants..  I'm still trying to figure out how a person that was LEAD screw up at SOE-Austin (aka SWG)  got the Co-GM spot at Bioware.. I guess it's all about the almighty dollar.. Should we make a KoTOR 3 and charge $59.95 that can be played on the PC, Xbox and PS3?  or should we make the game a lil bigger, add in some mmo stuff (but not much) and charge the same $59.95 plus $14.95 a MONTH every month after.. hmmmmm Lets go with the extended money game.. LOL I suspect this game fails within 2 years after release, but who cares..

Since you don't care and believe this will fail, why are you here?
 

How the game will avoid and/or resolve story-related paradoxes is a mystery to me as well. Managing to do it without breaking immersion (in my opinion) is a valid concern. Of course, in your own example, you're assuming the captain will have friends/family that lead to a direct confrontation much later in the game's narrative. The ramifications of your earlier choices might not be so obvious (at least to others in your party).

That said, working from your worst-case scenario again, why shouldn't your teammate take a "faction hit" if they betray a previous alliance in favor of assisting you? One "act of kindness" shouldn't make them beyond reproach. Alternatively, would it really be so horrible if once in a blue moon you were pulled into a private instance... assuming it was paramount to retaining immersion and relatively brief?

Secondly, it doesn't take a Nostradamus to predict this will be known as another "Star Wars blunder" if it doesn't meet the expectations of what the market wants. No duh. You don't think everyone and their uncle—including Bioware/LucasArts—is aware of that?

As for how someone who was the lead "screw up" at SOE-Austin got the Co-GM spot at Bioware... yeah, that concerns me as well. My only solace is at least Brad McQuaid, Richard Garriott and Raph Koster aren't involved in this project. (They aren't, right? Pleeeease tell me they aren't!)

And last but not least, regarding the whole 'true' MMO game criticism, I'll respond with perhaps the most insightful comment in the original post: "who cares." Seriously, it's like arguing whether cheesecake is 'truly' a cake or not. Does anyone give two shits? Really??

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

And last but not least, regarding the whole 'true' MMO game criticism, I'll respond with perhaps the most insightful comment in the original post: "who cares." Seriously, it's like arguing whether cheesecake is 'truly' a cake or not. Does anyone give two shits? Really??

You might, if you eat all that cheesecake.

This game will be very fun for up to three months depending on how much and how often you play it but then it will lose it's appeal.

I don't think that SW:TOR will be THE online game that you spend all your free time in.

So a online game for the casual player, well thats nice.

Originally posted by Jefferson81

This game will be very fun for up to three months depending on how much and how often you play it but then it will lose it's appeal.

I don't think that SW:TOR will be THE online game that you spend all your free time in.

So a online game for the casual player, well thats nice.

I'm intruiged; what are you basing this opinion on?

I think the legendary quote "oppinions are like assholes - everybody has one" fits this thread perfectly.

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Jefferson81

This game will be very fun for up to three months depending on how much and how often you play it but then it will lose it's appeal.

I don't think that SW:TOR will be THE online game that you spend all your free time in.

So a online game for the casual player, well thats nice.

I'm intruiged; what are you basing this opinion on?

I base it on what happend to Guild Wars.

I started playing that game in May 2005 and stopped compleatly playing it in late August.

It just wasn't anything left to do in the game besides PvP and most of my friends and the 20+ people that I had come to know within the game  hadn't logged in for weeks.

So I left.

End of story.

Originally posted by Jefferson81

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Jefferson81

This game will be very fun for up to three months depending on how much and how often you play it but then it will lose it's appeal.

I don't think that SW:TOR will be THE online game that you spend all your free time in.

So a online game for the casual player, well thats nice.

I'm intruiged; what are you basing this opinion on?

I base it on what happend to Guild Wars.

Oh, fair enough. You had a negative experience with one MMO so you're anticipating the same negative experience with this one. I'd say that was irrational, but that would be a bit hypocritical of me considering that my optimism towards TOR stems mainly from my positive experience with other Bioware titles.

Let's just both hope that time proves you wrong.

Originally posted by Jefferson81

This game will be very fun for up to three months depending on how much and how often you play it but then it will lose it's appeal.

I don't think that SW:TOR will be THE online game that you spend all your free time in.

So a online game for the casual player, well thats nice.

 

 

 

To be perfectly fair, every mmo starts losing its shine after about 2 months.  Look.  Every single mmo that has come out has had no hook, nothing to really entice people to keep coming back.  At least those that aren't ocd, acheivement whores, or loot whores.  The ONLY thing that attracts me to a game are the people.  I know that I detest wow with a passion but the woman I am currently dating has been playing for a year + so guess what game I am playing now lol.  I very well expect BioWare to give me that hook that every single mmo has been missing... depth to the story, a reason behind the story.  I know I played through BG and BG2 umpteen times as multiple classes, Mass Effect I played through 3 different times, Jade Empire a couple times, NWN... shit I still play that thing lol.

I know that as it sits right now I will play through at least sith, bounty hunter, and smuggler story lines and maybe even jedi.  I full well expect that right there will be 5-6 months of game time.  Depending on the other classes and the pace with which they are able to keep the content coming I could see playing it for close to a year... be even longer if I get the girl I am dating (and IF we are still together at the time) to play as well lol. 

ha ha .. I think this is funny as hell..  I just saw another E3 interview by Bioware where the Dev is wearing pins that say "I killed the captain" and "I spared the captain"..  He further goes on to say how quest like this effect YOUR toon present and future, But fails to explain how people grouping together that chose different course of actions earlier can do so?  HMmmm  

PS.. It was the Bioware Dev (some reason I think his name was Tim?) anyways.. it was the dev that said quote/unquote, "This game is KoTOR 3, KoTOR 4, KoTOR 5, etc all wrapped in one with online interaction"  Sorry ole chaps for raining on your parade, even Bioware is labeling this game as a KoTOR with internet.. LOL   However, this was mentioned long ago by other posters, and it wasnt' until E3 that I was sure this was going to be the course of this game.. 

I fail to see how its not an MMO R P G   emphasis on the R P G part.    Bioware so far has mentioned (even if they go into no detail about many things) all the parts of the MMO game they plan to have.  

Crafting  - yes but no details yet

Raids - yes but no details yet

End Game besides Raids - yes but no details yet

PvP - Obviously yes..this is a Star Wars game empahsis on WARS.

Open areas - Yes

Instanced Areas - yes

Storyline - Yes

Solo Play & Small Group Play  - Yes

Side Quests - Yes

These are the elements that traditionally make up an MMORPG.  Every game has their own variation on the various elements.  Most if not all make every single character follow the exact same storylines and exact same path to get to the end.  Bioware is simply taking their RPG storytelling power and adding that into the game giving us choice on how to get from A - B.  Its also giving our friends choices.   In RL do you not have friends that have enemies that are NOT your enemies?  Do you not at some point have to make a choice on whether to standby or help out?   Is that not the point and the power of choice that so many of us clamour for in an RPG?   IF the guy is your friend and the NPC's are merely someone who respect you..who's side should you choose?  The one that's going to fight with you or the one that gives a present?   I guess it depends on how dark or light sided you are.

There are alot of details to this game that have yet to be explained because the game isnt' due for atleast a year maybe even longer.  Its to early to judge but to call the game a single player game with the internet is just ridiculous.  An MMO is massive multiplayer and it sure sounds like one to me.   Its not some open world go farm some land type of game but thats never been a prerequisite to call anything MMO.

Originally posted by banthis

I fail to see how its not an MMO R P G   emphasis on the R P G part.    Bioware so far has mentioned (even if they go into no detail about many things) all the parts of the MMO game they plan to have.  

Crafting  - yes but no details yet

Raids - yes but no details yet

End Game besides Raids - yes but no details yet

PvP - Obviously yes..this is a Star Wars game empahsis on WARS.

Open areas - Yes

Instanced Areas - yes

Storyline - Yes

Solo Play & Small Group Play  - Yes

Side Quests - Yes

These are the elements that traditionally make up an MMORPG.  Every game has their own variation on the various elements.  Most if not all make every single character follow the exact same storylines and exact same path to get to the end.  Bioware is simply taking their RPG storytelling power and adding that into the game giving us choice on how to get from A - B.  Its also giving our friends choices.   In RL do you not have friends that have enemies that are NOT your enemies?  Do you not at some point have to make a choice on whether to standby or help out?   Is that not the point and the power of choice that so many of us clamour for in an RPG?   IF the guy is your friend and the NPC's are merely someone who respect you..who's side should you choose?  The one that's going to fight with you or the one that gives a present?   I guess it depends on how dark or light sided you are.

There are alot of details to this game that have yet to be explained because the game isnt' due for atleast a year maybe even longer.  Its to early to judge but to call the game a single player game with the internet is just ridiculous.  An MMO is massive multiplayer and it sure sounds like one to me.   Its not some open world go farm some land type of game but thats never been a prerequisite to call anything MMO.

Space = Hmmmm, who knows?

After all, this is Star Wars!

Originally posted by banthis

I fail to see how its not an MMO R P G   emphasis on the R P G part.    Bioware so far has mentioned (even if they go into no detail about many things) all the parts of the MMO game they plan to have.  

Crafting  - yes but no details yet

Raids - yes but no details yet

End Game besides Raids - yes but no details yet

PvP - Obviously yes..this is a Star Wars game empahsis on WARS.

Open areas - Yes

Instanced Areas - yes

Storyline - Yes

Solo Play & Small Group Play  - Yes

Side Quests - Yes

These are the elements that traditionally make up an MMORPG.  Every game has their own variation on the various elements.  Most if not all make every single character follow the exact same storylines and exact same path to get to the end.  Bioware is simply taking their RPG storytelling power and adding that into the game giving us choice on how to get from A - B.  Its also giving our friends choices.   In RL do you not have friends that have enemies that are NOT your enemies?  Do you not at some point have to make a choice on whether to standby or help out?   Is that not the point and the power of choice that so many of us clamour for in an RPG?   IF the guy is your friend and the NPC's are merely someone who respect you..who's side should you choose?  The one that's going to fight with you or the one that gives a present?   I guess it depends on how dark or light sided you are.

There are alot of details to this game that have yet to be explained because the game isnt' due for atleast a year maybe even longer.  Its to early to judge but to call the game a single player game with the internet is just ridiculous.  An MMO is massive multiplayer and it sure sounds like one to me.   Its not some open world go farm some land type of game but thats never been a prerequisite to call anything MMO.

Done.  And done.  Let this topic fade from everyone's memory as there were too many false assumptions and extrapolation at this this point in time.

Originally posted by PkL728

Done.  And done.  Let this topic fade from everyone's memory as there were too many false assumptions and extrapolation at this this point in time.

Please stop trying to close down discussion and speculation just because you, as a fanboi, disagree with it.

I personally am as interested as the OP - and other posters in this thread - as how groups who must arrive at ONE decision to move on will deal with MULTIPLE OPINIONS since each opinon affects the indiviual player.

Originally posted by zymurgeist 

 

Until you've actually seen the game forming any opinions is silly.

My sentiments exactly!

Agreed!

Originally posted by zymurgeist

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,

Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),

That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall

Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:

"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho! what have we here

So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear

This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take

The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:

"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.

"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;

" 'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man

Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can

This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,

Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,

"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,

Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,

Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Moral:

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,

Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,

And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has actually seen!

by John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887)

 

Until you've actually seen the game forming any opinions is silly.

Genius.
 

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by PkL728

Done.  And done.  Let this topic fade from everyone's memory as there were too many false assumptions and extrapolation at this this point in time.

 

Please stop trying to close down discussion and speculation just because you, as a fanboi, disagree with it.

I personally am as interested as the OP - and other posters in this thread - as how groups who must arrive at ONE decision to move on will deal with MULTIPLE OPINIONS since each opinon affects the indiviual player.

Then lets spin away......    Star Wars KOTOR will be a RTS FPS MMO game .. that is what its going to be. Since I dont wanna spend anytime what so ever to find out stuff, I rather just guess in the dark and not read ANYTHING that Bioware or Lucasarts said. And neither do i feel like I need to look on the Knights of the old republic forums. WHO needs FACT when I got my own FICTION.

Over and Out

OP, I assume you have playtested the game thoroughly with other players? How else would you know so much about how the game is going to pan out in this regard?

Forgive my sarcasm, but I am getting tired of people posting about how much the game IS GOING TO suck because of this and that even though they have absolutely no idea how it will actually pan out. Until you have actually played and seen the way these systems have been implemented by Bioware, you simply cannot make claims about how it will work. There simply is not enough information available at present to do that.

Give them a break and at least allow them to show us how they intend to address these issues before you write it off as "nothing more then KOTOR 3 + internet.."

I have to wonder if the OP has ever played a single MMO. Doesn't everyone know that a certain amount of suspension of disbelief is a requirement if you want to immerse in the story?

What he's describing is essentially no different than finishing a (for example) kill quest and then sticking around a few minutes to watch the NPC re-spawn an go about his business as if nothing had happened until someone else comes along on that quest and kills him again...

Add a faction or reputation influence hit to that quest and you have something very close to what he describes. I remember situations is such old games as Dark Age of Camelot, 10 years ago when some friends wouldn't help when certain ornery farmers attacked because their reputation with them was ok and helping me would have screwed that up for them.

This is all pretty old stuff.

Originally posted by LimaBravo

Originally posted by aleos

Originally posted by Rydeson

     I've read and watched many interviews and post by Bioware. NOW I SPECULATE----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I assume----------------------------------------------------------------------BLAH---------------------------------------------------BLAH-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------BLAH--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------i think---------------------------------------------------------------------BLAH-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------i dont really know what im talking about---------------------------------------

  You deserve manhugs thats just an awesome tranlation of OPs nonsense trolling.

 

 

Really? You don't think it was a rather leaden and childish insult to a poster making a valid point with which you have no answer but abuse? Guess not.

Originally posted by hubertgrove

Originally posted by LimaBravo

Originally posted by aleos

Originally posted by Rydeson

     I've read and watched many interviews and post by Bioware. NOW I SPECULATE----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I assume----------------------------------------------------------------------BLAH---------------------------------------------------BLAH-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------BLAH--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------i think---------------------------------------------------------------------BLAH-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------i dont really know what im talking about---------------------------------------

  You deserve manhugs thats just an awesome tranlation of OPs nonsense trolling.

 

 

 

Really? You don't think it was a rather leaden and childish insult to a poster making a valid point with which you have no answer but abuse? Guess not.

Sorry, but I didn't see valid points in the OP.  I saw speculation mixed with a bit of theoretical conjecture and a healthy dose of conspiracy theory style info. 

Basically, as others have said in so many words, we have been given a few bricks, and already people are trying to make castles.  There just isn't enough info for anyone to know what this game will truly be like.  Only time will tell.

Originally posted by Rydeson

     For some of you naysayers.. What I discribed with the "captain" quest is IN THE game.. It was one of the starting quest the smuggler class has in the beginning..  I believe it might of been gamespot that viewed this game footage during one of their interviews..  The quest gave you a choice.. kill or not kill the captain to get off the ship..  Rich Vogel talked briefly about the "killing the captain" quest during a recent E3 interview as well, using it to explain how choices can lead to future questlines.. It was Rich Vogel that used the example of a family member either seeking revenge or rewarding you for your choice later in the game..  SO.. As I was explaining..  How do quest like this effect gameplay if everyone is making different choices?   As I said.. Lets assume I killed the captain on Tues, but my friend didn't kill the captain when he played later that afternoon..  Does this mean we have a conflict of "timeline"? or is Bioware going to conviently lame excuse their way out of that problem?

     I would love to hear more concrete statements how Bioware is going to overcome grouping problems from the start..  WoW has similar situations, but they are a very minor part of the game..  In WoW if you want to kill the NPC's in Booty Bay to get your bloodsail admiral title, great.. but you'll do it alone if your friends or guildies are "friendly" with the Booty Bay faction..  However, like I said, this a very minor part and temporary as well..  WoW gives people the option to change rep if they so choose to.. Bioware has already stated that any choices made are PERMANENT, and can't be reversed..  Yeah.. i see problems with this storyline already.. HELL.. Even in the movies people switched factions.. Even Vader did in the end.. I'm glad Vaders alliance to the Sith wasnt' permanent or Luke would of died.. LOL .. Take note of that Bioware..

<Mod Edit>

 the captain quest you are referring to was part of the e3 demo, and it was a sith quest, and mid level at that.  Your arguement is void due to lack of actual fact.

Who cares really?  I mean you know it's going to be like coop KOTR which was a great game in itself.  You are going to get 50$ out of it.  Who cares if you burn through the content in 2 months?  It'll be worth it and as expansions come out you can jump back in for some fun.  There is also the chance that it finds some happy medium and a way to really bring story and MMO's together in a lasting experience which could be amazing.  Just let it have it's fair chance and judge it once it's out.  It's not like they can do any worse then all the other crap coming out lately.