Just a couple of thoughts here...

I think the anticipation that fans feel for the game pushes them to talk about anything related to the game, as if in some way talking about it (complaining or praising) will alleviate some of the excitement.  I don't think it really amounts to anything meaningful.  It's just people talking.  That's not to say that there aren't some valid topics or concerns out there, but they get buried in the mix. 

Many games have been innovative.  It's really amazing when you look at how far games, online or otherwise, have come in a very short time.  But it seems to me that we've reached a plateau and I think developers aren't really sure where to go from here (or how to go from here?). 

We all don't want the same thing.  You're absolutely right about some wanting the same thing wrapped in a different package, but not everyone does.  Some want real, in-your-face ingenuity and we feel like we just keep getting fed the same oatmeal, just with different food coloring, or maybe some fruit mixed in.  It's still oatmeal and I'm really tired of oatmeal.  WAR would be my first example here if you asked me for one.

I'm actually looking forward to SW:ToR, but with reservations.  I'm not sure that Bioware's addition of a 'fourth pillar' to a game is anything innovative by itself.  At least, it's not for them.  They are very good at writing stories already.  But if they can create an MMO with the kind of story for which they are known in an MMO environment where other players can see and feel the consequences of one player's decisions?  Well, this is where I hope they surprise me.

Good post!

Originally posted by andmiller

 Full voice, cut scenes, a progressing story.....you are saying that isn't innovative in an MMO because EQ2 has it in a handful of places and DDO has that annoying background voice in dungeons.....?  No MMO has done it like they are trying to do it, not even close.  Whether they pull it off or not is another story, and not the point of my post in any way. 

Your comparisons for what they say they are going to do are found lacking.  Badly.

Actually there is a game that's done it:

Guild Wars.  And LOTRO even has a storyline arc in it (that's done quite well without breaking the feel of you being in an MMO at all by the way).

I think what has people nervous is that Guild Wars only pulled it off by instancing *everything*.  I don't think BioWare will go that route but if you think about it I am sure you can see why folks are at least a little concerned about it.  Personally I think BioWare has the skill and know-how to make the game storyline driven without going as far as Guild Wars and without making the story feel totaly secondary, like LOTRO.  I think they'll find a solid balance between them.

How they are going to pull it off is not been released but I suspect it'll be some combination of locked content and instancing or, possibly, some new programming technology altogether.  It's actually possible to spawn 'instanced' content without actually having to load a fully separate instanced world now in computing... I forget the technical term but basically you can wind up in an instance without even really realising it if they do it right.

So, while I do know why people are concerned I don't share their concerns.   BioWare has never made a game I didn't enjoy and feel was worth my money.  Most of the naysayers in here are professional trolls anyway who just roam from game to game and spout off about how it will fail/die/dissapoint without giving any truely valid reasons.  I even have most of them blocked at this point.

Originally posted by andmiller

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Vrazule

Yet the nay sayers can't seem to give Bioware any benefit of the doubt.  Why is that?  As far as I can tell, it's soley due to Bioware's statements about a solo game play focus.  You don't like soloing, fine, go play some other game.  Stop trashing the type of game I have been waiting for since UO came out.  I'm really getting frakking tired of it and I'll be beyond irritated if all the bitching and whining from a handful of group fanatics influences Bioware to change their stance.

When you consider what Bioware actually said about solo vs group, it just highlights how rediculous the arguments are.  This game CAN be solo'd.  But it can also be done in a group.  They've specifically mentioned the benefits to having someone from another class with you while doing quests that are clearly designed for your specific class.  But they see the word "solo" and start freaking out.

It's a sad trend that is rampant around here.   People just shit on anything new.  If it's not exactly what they wanted, then it sucks, and the developers suck, and anyone who likes the game sucks.

Bioware has an amazing reputation and has a track record for delivering great games.  So unless you're an absolute fucking moron who thinks that all new MMO's suck, then you should be smart enough to hold off and reserve judgement until we actually know more about the game.

 

/agree 100%

I just realized I have been responding to and arguing with someone who actually has this as his forum name......

*punches self in head*

Your defense to all my arguements is that I'm speculating (which most of it is not, it was showing you that all of your speculated innovation has been done before and is not innovation).

So in short it is ok for fanboys to speculate that it will be the most innovative and amazing MMO ever in the history of the universe, and even god himself would play it because it is so uber awesome. But it is not ok for a realist to come in and show that the game is not innovative, because to say so would be speculation. Enjoy that high horse you're on, or maybe you're just high.

I've never said I want some new logic

I've be very, very satisfied with something just like WoW except with new land, classes, basically an overall different LOOK, but the same basic rules apply (trinity, grinding, raiding, etc.)

It'll be fun doing a storyline of star wars, I just hope they don't go overboard and neglect the essentials.

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

Originally posted by andmiller

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Vrazule

Yet the nay sayers can't seem to give Bioware any benefit of the doubt.  Why is that?  As far as I can tell, it's soley due to Bioware's statements about a solo game play focus.  You don't like soloing, fine, go play some other game.  Stop trashing the type of game I have been waiting for since UO came out.  I'm really getting frakking tired of it and I'll be beyond irritated if all the bitching and whining from a handful of group fanatics influences Bioware to change their stance.

When you consider what Bioware actually said about solo vs group, it just highlights how rediculous the arguments are.  This game CAN be solo'd.  But it can also be done in a group.  They've specifically mentioned the benefits to having someone from another class with you while doing quests that are clearly designed for your specific class.  But they see the word "solo" and start freaking out.

It's a sad trend that is rampant around here.   People just shit on anything new.  If it's not exactly what they wanted, then it sucks, and the developers suck, and anyone who likes the game sucks.

Bioware has an amazing reputation and has a track record for delivering great games.  So unless you're an absolute fucking moron who thinks that all new MMO's suck, then you should be smart enough to hold off and reserve judgement until we actually know more about the game.

 

/agree 100%

I just realized I have been responding to and arguing with someone who actually has this as his forum name......

*punches self in head*

 

Your defense to all my arguements is that I'm speculating (which most of it is not, it was showing you that all of your speculated innovation has been done before and is not innovation).

 

So in short it is ok for fanboys to speculate that it will be the most innovative and amazing MMO ever in the history of the universe, and even god himself would play it because it is so uber awesome. But it is not ok for a realist to come in and show that the game is not innovative, because to say so would be speculation. Enjoy that high horse you're on, or maybe you're just high.

There is a big difference between an educated guess and an ignorant assumption.  I won't even bother trying to explain the difference or point out the category to which you belong.  What would be the point?  The rest of us already know, but you'll refuse to see it either way.

I agree with OP. I really dislike seeing people flame a game that isn't out yet without giving it a chance. And not only that, they are flaming Bioware who has virtually flawless history of games.

A good storyline is essential to a RPG, may it be single player or MMO. So what that it is possible to solo the whole game, it's also possible to do it with groups. And they did say that the game will incorporate most elements of current MMORPGs(I'm thinking of PvP, achievements and hopefully RvR). I'm not the biggest Star Wars fan, but I can see that this game has lots of potential to be very successful and will most likely give it a try once it gets out.

Originally posted by Sabradin

I've never said I want some new logic

I've be very, very satisfied with something just like WoW except with new land, classes, basically an overall different LOOK, but the same basic rules apply (trinity, grinding, raiding, etc.)

It'll be fun doing a storyline of star wars, I just hope they don't go overboard and neglect the essentials.

If the "essentials" are the basic rules you describe, as in trinity, grinding, raiding, etc., then I have to admit you're the first person I've seen on these boards who would be "very, very satisfied" with that outcome.  I would argue, however, that these things are NOT essential; rather, they limit MMO development considerably.  It'd be like buying a car in any color you want, as long as it's black.  If every game that came out considered those things to be essential components, the current landscape of MMOs would be quite boring.  Oh, wait...

Originally posted by Praxus1874

Originally posted by Daggit

 Every FFXI player here would know that story line is CENTRAL to keeping people playing any MMO. Mechanics and Content and Gear come after this.

 

Not for everyone.  For example, I found myself unable to play FFXI entirely because of mechanics.  Just wasn't my style, despite the fact that I greatly enjoy Final Fantasy games in general.

This is not really on-topic, but in regards to SWTOR, there will be plenty of players who really don't care about the story.  Well done or not, they it's just not a feature that interests some people.  Bioware won't be able to convince them otherwise, and neither can you.

Prax

We aren't trying to convince them.  Personally, I don't even want them to play the game.  Sadly, history proves that  a small group of whiners who rant enough, can actually change the direction a game is going and turn it into it's opposite.  I would really hate to see that happen to this game, especially one with so many elements that appeal to me.

Originally posted by Kylrathin

Originally posted by Sabradin

I've never said I want some new logic

I've be very, very satisfied with something just like WoW except with new land, classes, basically an overall different LOOK, but the same basic rules apply (trinity, grinding, raiding, etc.)

It'll be fun doing a storyline of star wars, I just hope they don't go overboard and neglect the essentials.

 

If the "essentials" are the basic rules you describe, as in trinity, grinding, raiding, etc., then I have to admit you're the first person I've seen on these boards who would be "very, very satisfied" with that outcome.  I would argue, however, that these things are NOT essential; rather, they limit MMO development considerably.  It'd be like buying a car in any color you want, as long as it's black.  If every game that came out considered those things to be essential components, the current landscape of MMOs would be quite boring.  Oh, wait...

LOL HAHAHAH ROFLMAO!

Oh, wait...

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

Your defense to all my arguements is that I'm speculating (which most of it is not, it was showing you that all of your speculated innovation has been done before and is not innovation).

You didn't show anything.  There is no MMO on the market that has done what Bioware is trying to do with TOR.

The proof you have shown has been is little more than saying something like Einstein did nothing innovate in the field of physics because math existed before him.

Originally posted by Mathrym

I agree with OP. I really dislike seeing people flame a game that isn't out yet without giving it a chance. And not only that, they are flaming Bioware who has virtually flawless history of games.

A good storyline is essential to a RPG, may it be single player or MMO. So what that it is possible to solo the whole game, it's also possible to do it with groups. And they did say that the game will incorporate most elements of current MMORPGs(I'm thinking of PvP, achievements and hopefully RvR). I'm not the biggest Star Wars fan, but I can see that this game has lots of potential to be very successful and will most likely give it a try once it gets out.

I see the opposite of that. I hate people who fall in love with a game that no real details have been released on, and then they turn around and call the game (which has no details out on it, let alone even beta tested or played it) innovative and will change MMOs. You see these same people pop up everytime before a game is released, getting pissed and attacking everyone who has the sense to realize nothing will be innovative or different.

But then again everytime a game is released those people mysteriously disappear and don't post anymore because they now realize the game isn't innovative, and often times isn't even good. So they don't want to be around when everyone is pointing out how they got their panties all bunched up when other people tried to explain it all before hand.

The fanboys are the ones who do more flaming then anyone else on the boards, bring on the next flame at me for pointing this out now.

The truth is, for all the people that start negative threads about any game, usually are people that want to hear themselves talk. All one has to do, if they want to know how TOR will play out, is to do a little research and actually read. Once again i could get into specifics about the game, but at this point it seems overly redundant.

Eh it the end the best of the best gets bashed and people want old feelings which they can't get the same feeling because they're feelin gthe fun when they first played an mmo that feeling will never be brought back. thats what i think

I would just like to see games like UO and precu SWG evolved to the next level.  But they can't or won't even do that. 

The current view on 'innovation' is to merge the mmo closer toward the single player experience.   No thank you.

So far I don't really see anything innovative about SWTOR.  But maybe when it's released and I get to play it I will change my mind.

If what they are doing isn't innovative than what is?

Theres been many attempts at being unique and innovative and they've all failed.  The one game that has collected the GOOD innovation and left out the bad ones is the most successful.

Still can't say I understand.

So why are we still trying to find new innovation instead of just using the ones that work and leave out the ones that don't?

Is it because we'd rather try to find our creative spotlight in time rather than being successful?

--
And yes, out of the top 4 reasons why I left is because everything in WoW looked the same after time and I kept thinking "I would love to play this game if they just changed all the content but kept the logic."

Originally posted by arenasb

If what they are doing isn't innovative than what is?

I would say UO, EQ, DAOC, GW would all be examples of innovative games because at the time they were all introduced, they brought something new to the table.

UO brought the virtual world.  EQ brought class and levels.  DAOC brought realm versus realm.  Guild Wars brought henchmen. 

Originally posted by Terranah

Originally posted by arenasb

If what they are doing isn't innovative than what is?

 

I would say UO, EQ, DAOC, GW would all be examples of innovative games because at the time they were all introduced, they brought something new to the table.

 

UO brought the virtual world.  EQ brought class and levels.  DAOC brought realm versus realm.  Guild Wars brought henchmen. 

I would also add Eve Online to your list as a game which helped involve meta gaming, real world economics integrated into the game, and also politics having a huge impact on the game world as a whole.  

Its really pretty simple.

If people don't like what they are hearing about the game, then they don't have to play it.  Find something else that suits your gaming preferences.  Not every new MMO coming out is going to (or has to) cater to everyone's differing playstyles.

Originally posted by Airwren

Originally posted by Terranah

Originally posted by arenasb

If what they are doing isn't innovative than what is?

 

I would say UO, EQ, DAOC, GW would all be examples of innovative games because at the time they were all introduced, they brought something new to the table.

 

UO brought the virtual world.  EQ brought class and levels.  DAOC brought realm versus realm.  Guild Wars brought henchmen. 

I would also add Eve Online to your list as a game which helped involve meta gaming, real world economics integrated into the game, and also politics having a huge impact on the game world as a whole.  

Yeah very true. 

Maybe I would add SWG because it had the land based game and introduced the space component.  I don't think anyone had done that yet.  There's lots of examples of innovation in the mmo business.  Keep them coming people...

Originally posted by arenasb

If what they are doing isn't innovative than what is?

Nothing has been truly innovative yet, but along the way most games have introduced one new step over the old games.

First there were MUDs.

Then The Realm created a 2d side scrolling graphical version.

UO created isometric and a much more open world then the Realm and took out screen loading and instanced combat. Probably the most innovative overall.

EQ added 3D and focused more on quests. Used the D&D class system as it's base.

AC (devoloped at same time as EQ and released within a couple months of it) used 3D and a seamless world, expanded on the skill system of UO. It took out the safe zone of cities for PvP that UO had.

AC2 added the current interface and game layout you see used in almost all modern MMOs.

DAoC added Realm vs Realm and battlegrounds.

WoW added the quick leveling/focus on end game.

EQ2 added character voices.

DDO added built in VOIP.

LotRO added Monster Play in a workable form (yes EQ had it but it didn't work out too well).

On their own none of them were innovative, they took what worked and reused it, then they tried adding something new. The next game in the series kept the new if it worked and then added it's own new.

This is why it is so ridiculous everytime someone quotes the new game coming out as truly innovative. SW:tOR sees what works and is taking all the parts that work and putting them in one game. They are also seeing that currently a lot of people like to solo so they are focusing their game on the solo experience. But there isn't anything they're doing that is actually innovative.

It may turn out good it may not, but the over-eager need to get a grip on what it actually is.

Full voice acting for every character  requiring 1000s of actors  I would say thats pretty damn innovative. Quit bitching about story holy hell.  Bioware is focusing a major part of their game on story, cool.  Were they the first to do it no but who really cares. Innovation isnt the key its doing it well. There can be plenty of games with innovative ideas that flop because they are poorly implemented. I think why most people are excited for this game is 1.) From Bioware we can expect a well done polished game 2.) a great story line similar to that of the KOTORs

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by blotz

honestly

i think it will be just another " guided experiance"  with a different name slapped on the box

 

 

would you care to enlightend us on how you came to your divine conclusions? 

Bioware only puts out crappy games?  Bioware just pushes poor copies of already existing games?  Bioware never innovates?  Hmmm... It seems that none of these apply, so I can only assume you must have some great knowledge that the rest of us are lacking.

That, or you are just talking out of your ass.

Nah, he is absolutely right if you consider the info we have at this time. Apart from the words "just another", that is ...

It WILL be a guided experience in some way; a focus on story driven gameplay + high on single player content make that fairly obvious.

What remains to be seen is whether that is a problem or not and if it hurts the long time playability. It could also be the genious addition to the genre we all waited for.

But personally I think guided experiences, no matter how compelling, can only work in an mmo if they are be balanced with more than enough open ended and public content and if the main storylines feel like a natural part of the total experience and won't get obtrusive in any way. We will have to see about that.

I'm the kind of guy that avoids guidance like the plague (as in: playing the Elder Scrolls, X-universe and Fallout games for years and years but never bothering with the main quests, simply because being THE hero did never appeal to me from a RP perspective), so I am really curious whether SW:TOR will manage to draw me in.

For me, everything depends on how that story driven gameplay is implemented.

I think its that there are just so many things that a game with 12,000 to a server could do and seeing the same things as in a single-player game is just disheartening.  It is innovation only to a degree, because story is something we have seen, just in a different form.

The following are examples of innovation:

Why has player government not been a popular feature?  How about letting players become members of the jedi council and run for election?  Let me be the supreme chancellor and tax players in order to build more city content.  Let there be guilds who can rebel, or switch sides.  How about a ton more world events that shape the history of a server instead of pre-created story?  If a guild becomes big enough, why can't they be a faction choice?

NPC towns for the opposite faction, LET US DESTROY THEM.  They need to be able to defend themselves.  I am not saying destroy completely, the plot of land could even remain in their hands, I just think that we should be able to occupy their lands for a certain amount of time and destroy their buildings.  And please, reward us for our valiant efforts.  How about a ceremony held with new NPC dialogue in honor of the guild?  I know it sounds ridiculous, but honestly that would be a cool thing to kill the one-time spawned monster and get a feast, etc.

How about procedural boss fights?  Why is it always "Go here, click on the box when he yells 'I hate humans,' and nuke until he turns black, then run behind for cover," rinse and repeat.  How about a GM controls a dragon that spawned in front of a main city?  How about the scale the dragon drops is the only one that will ever drop, and it can be used to make an actually unique sword?  What about housing, a feature that isn't in many MMO's be included  for the people who want that?  What about Guild Halls?  How about making just enough guild keeps that actually keeping them is realistic, but not enough that every guild gets one?  This would cause wars amongst guilds!

Video game customers don't know what video game customers want.  Video game customers are sheep, which is why WoW has 11 million subs and every Call of Duty released for the rest of history will sell 11 million copies as well.  An example of what was going to be an innovative FPS was Six Days At Fallujah, until it was dropped.  I hope that they make up some war, call the game something different and use the same technology because that game was the most realistic war simulation game to date.  Things like this make me agitated.

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

It may turn out good it may not, but the over-eager need to get a grip on what it actually is.

Its true this game could go either way, all games can, but in the end if someone wants to get exited about something.....whats wrong with that? I dont think they need ot get a grip, but you really need to get a life...