Originally posted by Ihmotepp

 Why would anyone do anything in a game or in real life the hard way, and then say that's more fun? That seems simply retarded.

I agree with you, it's retarded.   But then I read about people who climb mount everest without the aid of oxygen, or decide to walk a marathon backwards.

I guess for some people, harder is more fun?   /shrug

Originally posted by AllNewMMOSuk

Ya the 11 million people playing WoW alone for it's raid model is clearly getting in their way. The only thing actually getting in their way is the loads of money piling up.

 

Clearly you are angry, it would seem that you can't get into good groups (with this long rant I'm not too shocked) and as such you are always a step behind. So because you personally can not do what it takes to make your character good, you want the entire industry to change to fit your specific play style.

Uh huh and people like you were the ones who said WoW would be a failure, because it was too casual friendly, dumbed down and made for the lowest common denominator of the player base.  You people are always wrong, because you can't see beyond your own play style.

One of these days a developer will create a 100% casual, AAA, P2P game and you'll see just how many of us are really out there and just how long we're willing to stick around for a game that treats us with the same respect and eliticism that raiders currently enjoy.

Added Note:  Approximately 20% of WoW's player base raids, statistic from Blizzard mind you.  What do you think those other 80% are doing?  We are playing up to 60 or so, then re-rolling.  Why?  Because Blizzard is too lazy or too elitist to give us content that we enjoy at end game.  I quit, because I've lost all tolerance for developing companies that treat my play style like the proverbial red headed step child.  Others keep re-rolling, because they're new to the industry and haven't become disallusioned like some of us casuals who have been around since UO and EQ.  Do you think they would be happier if Blizzard got off their frakking pedestal long enough to cater to casuals at end game?  You betcha they would.  They merely tolerate it now, because it's the best they can get in this raid and group centric genre.

If Bioware can manage to give soloers the same rewards and quality of content as groupers and raiders, we could see even sooner than expected just what a force we casuals are in this industry.  If they can manage to do this paradigm shift, they might even have the chance to not only compete with WoW, but surpass it.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

The real question is, why do you want to pay $15 a month to play in a massive online world by yourself? You can play by yourself in a single player game for no monthly fee.

Because the game has more content than 10-15 hrs SP games that can be finished over one weekend?

$15 for a months of playing >>>> $60 for a weekend.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Abrahmm

The real question is, why do you want to pay $15 a month to play in a massive online world by yourself? You can play by yourself in a single player game for no monthly fee.

Because the game has more content than 10-15 hrs SP games that can be finished over one weekend?

$15 for a months of playing >>>> $60 for a weekend.

 

Lets not forget the continuous updates and expansions.  The immersion factor of having real people running around you at all times.  We soloers chat as much if not more than you groupers and raiders.  Of course we interact with other players, just not preferably through grouping.  Believe it or not, many of us don't need to be "Forced" to interact with each other and I seriously doubt that the majority of players feel the need to be "Forced" either.

Very well thought out post, except for the title *grin* TOO MANY CAPS!

I agree with most of what you said, and I love the analogy of musicals. MMOGs really do feel like they're in that phase of tried and true. Can't really blame them since it isn't exactly cheap to create an MMO, lots of time and money invested. It's also very dangerous to break a popular trend, you really have to come up with something amazing or people will just ignore it.

Another analogy might not be so good is color films, for longest time everything was black and white, but when the technology came around and color was allowed that changed. Now everything is in color. Which begs the question, is end game content black and white or color?

I think you hit the nail right on the head, OP. I completely agree.

Theres no reason developers can't make challenging boss encounters for solo players that challenge the indivdual player as much as that player would be challenged individually by a multi-group raid.

I'd like to a see a game with no end-game because there is no leveling or advancement of any kind.

No new gear other then for cosmetic purposes.

No increasing stats, just a set pool to adjust based on what kind of character you want to make.

Freedom to choose your characters set of skills and create your own template, but without the actual grinding of skill ups. But with enough limitations on choice so not everyone is an uber tank-mage.

So kind of like the old UO test servers where you could create a 7x GM in a few minutes.

What would people do? What DID they do?

Explore the world fighting monsters, fight each other, create homes/furniture/stuff to fill their homes.

Now....

Imagine a game where you could do all of that... but they ALSO include a vast storyline that takes you to the far ends of the world and back again doing all kinds of adventures and exploring all kinds of cool and interesting places.... but it was entirely optional.

Now imagine that system where you also were able to make choices as the story progressed that determined if your character was good or evil. But also imagine if you didn't do the story you had ways to make your character goor or evil based off the actions you did do.

And the more stuff you do, be it for good or evil, or if you choose neither and walk the middle line, the more fame your character accumulates which grants special titles and gear (only for show, no stats). And even your fame and alignment was optional and could be locked in place.

Where the ONLY advancement your character made was how you chose to advance them.

Throw in an achievement system ala WOW so people can brag about their accomplishments along with titles to display... or not display...

Would you play that game?

To the OP:

From reading your post, you'd be happier playing a single-player RPG, no MMO is really going to fill your needs.

Originally posted by Hammertime1

To the OP:

From reading your post, you'd be happier playing a single-player RPG, no MMO is really going to fill your needs.

Doubtful.

There are many who enjoy online RPGs (MMORPGs) because they are massively multiplayer, but they like to have the option to solo.

They want the option to group up and be a part of the community, but they like to do their thing.

You can feel like you are part of the vast online world just by seeing other players running around without interacting with anyone.

Massively multiplayer online games just have a certain feel to them... going into town and seeing all these different players, running across people out in the wilds... even if you don't want to interact with them it's important that they are there.

It's just a feeling... something single player RPG will never match.

Originally posted by heerobya

I'd like to a see a game with no end-game because there is no leveling or advancement of any kind.

No new gear other then for cosmetic purposes.

No increasing stats, just a set pool to adjust based on what kind of character you want to make.

Freedom to choose your characters set of skills and create your own template, but without the actual grinding of skill ups. But with enough limitations on choice so not everyone is an uber tank-mage.

So kind of like the old UO test servers where you could create a 7x GM in a few minutes.

 

What would people do? What DID they do?

Explore the world fighting monsters, fight each other, create homes/furniture/stuff to fill their homes.

Now....

Imagine a game where you could do all of that... but they ALSO include a vast storyline that takes you to the far ends of the world and back again doing all kinds of adventures and exploring all kinds of cool and interesting places.... but it was entirely optional.

Now imagine that system where you also were able to make choices as the story progressed that determined if your character was good or evil. But also imagine if you didn't do the story you had ways to make your character goor or evil based off the actions you did do.

And the more stuff you do, be it for good or evil, or if you choose neither and walk the middle line, the more fame your character accumulates which grants special titles and gear (only for show, no stats). And even your fame and alignment was optional and could be locked in place.

Where the ONLY advancement your character made was how you chose to advance them.

Throw in an achievement system ala WOW so people can brag about their accomplishments along with titles to display... or not display...

Would you play that game?

I would play this game but its devs better deliver massively on all this stuff.  If it turns out that all these big concepts were just window dressing for another grind or relagated me as 'player content' for the 'hardcore', I would drop it at lightning speed.

I might be tired of leveling based advance systems but there are other aspects of MMOs I am even more tired of.  

I sort of halfway agree with the OP and I've said similar things myself.  But for me it's raiding that I hate while I love grouping, or at least a certain type of grouping.

For me raiding means large numbers of people, tightly organized, following orders, having to play the part of a flunky to your guild master, and playing by a schedule that somebody else sets for you.  I absolutey hate that playstlye.

For me good grouping means a small number of people, very informal, everyone has their say, you don't have to join a club (guild) to be a part of it, you don't have to subordinate yourself to anyone, and you play by your own schedule.

I like being able to log in, hook up with a group and have fun without all the BS associated with raiding.  Unfortunately it's becoming almost impossible to find that sort of gameplay anymore.  It seems that this sort of "casual" grouping is going the way of the dodo.  Nowdays everything is raid or solo and nothing in between it seems.  It seems that grouping only exists anymore in the form of small scale raiding.  Or at best it's a quick run through an instance and then it's back to soloing.

This is why I've been feeling incredibly nostalgic for EQ lately even with the problems it had.  I truly despised the end-game in EQ but loved the grouping side of the game while leveling up.

The real problem here is that developers try to please everyone in one game.  Game companies should make games that cater primarily to soloers all the way through and at the end-game too.  They should also make games that cater to the small group crowd and always to the small group crowd.  And then they should make games that cater to the raiders and do it right from the beginning, not wait till people have hit max level.

They really can't satisfy all of these preferences in one game.  You can't make a game that is solo-able all the way through without killing grouping unless you make solo progress noticably slower, which seems to really piss off the all-solo players.  And you can't reserve end-game progress for raiders without pissing off both solo and small group players.  But if you don't require people to raid to progress then there is no reason to raid so then the raiders are pissed off.

Anyway, I know what I want and what I want is the sort of friendly, open, pick up groups going all the time like there was in EQ back in the old days.  Groups all over the place all the time so that I can just log in and hop into a group without pre-scheduling it and pre-planning it and making myself someone's bitch in a highly organized guild.  I also want the solo-all-the-time players and the big-raid players to get what they want, just not in the same game that I'm in because I know that doesn't work. 

 I like people, who comment, that they want to play 15 bucks a month to solo, just because they can chat and there are people running around.

Nearly a decade ago there was NWN. Which featured basically the same thing, and the only thing you had to pay for was the base game.

Nowadays you have GW, which is even more so - you can do EVERYTHING solo, no interaction IG needed at all. But why hasn't it beaten WoW yet? It's 100% casual game, down to the core. You can't be more casual, unles you're Free Realms. And if it's not AAA, it's, quite likely, AA title.

See, here, I disproved your point, There IS a game like that, and quite popular. But not popular enough. The secret to WoW popularity lies in something completely different.

And it's about time th genres separated. Casual people can't enjoy grouping, outside of their "territory of comfort". We can't enjoy solo, unless it can't be helped at the moment (and the shorter it is, the better). We WANT to PLAY with other people. Not just see them and chat with them - I can do that in (gasp!) Real Life. Why would I need my best friend to play a game with me (with a monthly sub, no less), when I can give him a call and just go strolling around, or play tabletop game, or my 360, or a round of HoMM? Why? I don't, so I go to MMO to meet strangers, forge relationships through fights, ordeals and rewards. That's my gameplay experience. You want the other one - knock yourself out. But I can't filter you, from the guys I would prefer to play with. Why can't devs do that for us?

Better yet, create a new type of server. Call it "for stupid lifeless geeks only", I don't care. Just give us the option.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Anyway, I know what I want and what I want is the sort of friendly, open, pick up groups going all the time like there was in EQ back in the old days.  Groups all over the place all the time so that I can just log in and hop into a group without pre-scheduling it and pre-planning it and making myself someone's bitch in a highly organized guild.  I also want the solo-all-the-time players and the big-raid players to get what they want, just not in the same game that I'm in because I know that doesn't work. 

The only reason it doesn't work is because developers make solo gear < small group gear < raid gear.

People would still raid and group up even if the gear was all the same as solo gear just because the dungeons and raids are there to do.

All you need is an achievement system ala WOW to give people a number to tie around their e-peen and you win!

Make achievements actual accomplishments that are rewards in and of themselves, not gear treadmills.

There is a game that has all of these things you guys are talking about its been out for every long time and it was Asheron's Call the real issue is that now its is not  a game template any Development company will follow again and the reason is world of  warcraft killed that kind of genre of gameplay possible for good....

Everyone is stuck in a loop of crap because no one wants to see it,  look at the last 2 expansions of wow what did they really offer nothing they just repeated the same thing over and over.  DO your raids get your pve armor then arena gear and thats it arent you guys kinda tired of that grind its just a rinse and repeat they offered nothing new nothing soloable at all...

You guys and alot of us are chosing the blue pill instead of the red to awakin from that long sleep of moronic games that have made in the last 8 years...and these gaming places like Mmorpg, ign, gametrailers and many others arent helping because there being paid to push the crap out there....how else would they be here....so till the time we choose the red pill gaming will never change and all you will see are the rehashed replayed same moronic gameplay...

Till we say NO MORE!!!!!

Its up to us to change it developers will not listen till it hits them in the one place it counts there money.........end of line.

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Anyway, I know what I want and what I want is the sort of friendly, open, pick up groups going all the time like there was in EQ back in the old days.  Groups all over the place all the time so that I can just log in and hop into a group without pre-scheduling it and pre-planning it and making myself someone's bitch in a highly organized guild.  I also want the solo-all-the-time players and the big-raid players to get what they want, just not in the same game that I'm in because I know that doesn't work. 

 

The only reason it doesn't work is because developers make solo gear < small group gear < raid gear.

People would still raid and group up even if the gear was all the same as solo gear just because the dungeons and raids are there to do.

All you need is an achievement system ala WOW to give people a number to tie around their e-peen and you win!

Make achievements actual accomplishments that are rewards in and of themselves, not gear treadmills.

The grouping I'm talking about from EQ happened mostly because it was the faster way to make experience (with maybe the exception of some very solo friendly classes).   It probably also had something to do with the lack of instances and people needing to share content but mostly it happened because it was more efficient.

I really don't believe that there will ever be much grouping in any situation in which solo is the most efficient way to play.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

The grouping I'm talking about from EQ happened mostly because it was the faster way to make experience (with maybe the exception of some very solo friendly classes).   It probably also had something to do with the lack of instances and people needing to share content but mostly it happened because it was more efficient.

I really don't believe that there will ever be much grouping in any situation in which solo is the most efficient way to play.

Players will always find the fastest/most efficient way to do things.

To counter this, you'd have to make solo, small group, and large group rewards (including experience gain) exactly the same... an hour of solo play would net the same reward as an hour in a group. You'd have to balance out gains. Solo you'd gain slower but more each time, in a group you gain faster but less each time... seperate yet equal.

Or like I said just get rid of leveling and any advancement systems and people will still group up just because they are online in a massively multiplayer game.. and because they can.

Originally posted by heerobya

Originally posted by Neanderthal

The grouping I'm talking about from EQ happened mostly because it was the faster way to make experience (with maybe the exception of some very solo friendly classes).   It probably also had something to do with the lack of instances and people needing to share content but mostly it happened because it was more efficient.

I really don't believe that there will ever be much grouping in any situation in which solo is the most efficient way to play.

 

Players will always find the fastest/most efficient way to do things.

To counter this, you'd have to make solo, small group, and large group rewards (including experience gain) exactly the same... an hour of solo play would net the same reward as an hour in a group. You'd have to balance out gains. Solo you'd gain slower but more each time, in a group you gain faster but less each time... seperate yet equal.

Or like I said just get rid of leveling and any advancement systems and people will still group up just because they are online in a massively multiplayer game.. and because they can.

Then why don't players group up in, say, WoW, for more than one-two dungeon runs? They can, right?

And what the hell are you talking about? Do you even read your posts? Faster, but less, slower, but more? What? Esxperience/rewards/giggles?

See, the problem is, when an Average Spheric Gamer In Vacuum has the option to solo and the option to group, while recieving basically the same rewards, he WILL go solo, unless he is playing with an already established friend. That's the rule in any kind of MMO.

raiding is anti-social if you ask me..everyone is off in some clone of some other instance and being told what to do by their guild leaders.

I completely agree with the OP. And once again: There's a very easy solution to that. It's called: Henchmen

If i would be able to use my own alts (or other offline players) as Henchmen to form my own group or raid, then you wouldn't have to cut the grouping/raid content out of a game, simply make it more accessible for those who desire to play in smaller groups or solo. The ressources/money to get those henchmen running would make it for the time waste that it can be to organize "free self controlled" group or raids. That can be easily balanced.

Ah but guess what... Been saying that for 10 years to everybody so now i'm just looking forward to put it in my own game since i gave up a long time ago to see it happen in any others. (NPC Henchmen is a step, but not good enough since it removes a lot of the immersion and make you feel even more "alone together" in an online games instead of putting you in contact with other "real player character". So... don't bother me with guild wars henchmen system.)

Originally posted by Hammertime1

To the OP:

From reading your post, you'd be happier playing a single-player RPG, no MMO is really going to fill your needs.

stop telling him what he wants.