Originally posted by AgtSmith

I didn't encourage or discourage people from playing, I don't much care what folks do in that regard.  As a topic of conversation it is worth countering those who continue to buy the spin and marketing dribble time and time again.

Hmm, I'd have to disagree with you that you wern't 'discouraging' people from playing... perhaps you didn't say the exact words, "I discourage you from playing!" but man, C'mon, if  100 random people who hadn't heard of DDO before read just your posts as their only information regarding the game, odd's are that a much larger percentage of them would be dis-inclined to play the game that you referenced in your ravings than those that would want to. 

with out going back to pull quotes, I can think of a few times when you used the sentiment of   "...this failed game." in reference to DDO.  that seems rather discouraging.

For some one who seems to be so against spin, it appears that your trying pretty hard here to 'spinn' the fact that you didn't discourage people from playing.

...I'm just sayin.

zWolf -out

None of us know whether DDO has made money or not, when we use the term success we mean a thriving, or at least healthy population, and a game that is getting reasonable development attention.  DDO has been left for dead by Turbine for some time in terms of content - look at first year or so very last year or so and it is dramatic the difference in content and development from Turbine and populations for some time have been drastically low.  For over a year Turbine has been giving limited resources to the servers and network even farming them off to a third party at one point - for the longest time the game has lagged worse than those FPS servers pimple faced kids run in their Mom's basement.  So yeah, it is fair to say that as MMOs go DDO is not a successful MMO.  That being said, when a pay to play MMO, one with a major IP like D&D, has to go free to pay it is an obvious indicator that it is failing.  Major IPs are few and far between and you don't pay millions to get the license to build a community of 15 to 20k subscribers.

As for playing - personal choice.  I don't care who plays and who does not.  The discussion is about the game, the recent announcement from Turbine and how it might affect the game's future, and for my two cents what I think is the real motivation behind the change.

Back to the RMT-F2P thing, consider a silly analogy.  Think of a McDonald's burger that is selling very poorly.  So the McDonald's execs hold a big press conference ad state that the problem is the pricing methodology.  So instead of selling the burger for $0.99 as they did before they are going to re-price things as follows:

burger patty - $0.39 (cooked is extra $0.19)
bun - $0.29 (sesame seeds is extra $0.9)
pickles, lettuce, onions - $0.9 ea.
mayo, mustard, ketchup, special sauce - $0.9 ea.

They go on in the press conference to say how the taste will remain the same, the service will as well, and the ingredients will be identical because those are not the problem in fact they are the best in the business.  Tell me this is something any half brained twit graduating from night business school would think is a good idea and keep in mind that McDonald;s doesn't have to outlay tons of cash building new grills and stuff to make this change (as DDO has to do lots of development to make their change).  But this is what we are to believe from Turbine, that they believe the game as it is is something people will love, even though 3 + years of subscribers and free trials has led the game to the very sewers of MMOs, just like it is if they can only carve it up in to smaller pieces and sell those pieces individually for what amounts in the end to a higher price.  ???  Sorry, but that is insane ever for the IP killers at Turbine.  The only reasonable explination is that they figure enough of the vets will still sub and the F2P thing will amount to enough subsidy to test an RMT model for other projects.  This is not about repacking a turd as mini turds and selling them off, this is about building systems for their other games plain and simple.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

It is like saying that if someone won't buy a widget for $20 and the product wallows for years selling poorly that changing the price to 4 weekly payments of $5 is going togenerate a bunch of new customers.

other than the product wallowing for years, (and I bet that's not even a deterant,) this approach is EXACTLY how car salesmen sell cars. 

If you disagree, just head to your local car dealership, and see how many of them talk to you about small micro payments, instead of the over all price of the vehicle.  Why not try it on other products, especialy somthning as new as MMO's.

I'm excited by the new prospect!

by your own arguments, DDO was heading into a dark place and doomed to failure, so what? so this is their hail marry pass... and why is that a bad thing? 

they would be crazy as sin if they are in trouble and they continued to do the same thing that had not worked for them in the past. 

I think that from your previous comments, you'd say that they were failing at what they were doing, and now it looks like your argueing vehemently that they are going to fail with this new plan... ok, doomed if they do, doomed if they don't.

Are you thinking then that what they should do is just pull the plug?  is that what your angling for?  Well that's not how bussiness works, they are going to scrape and inovate just as much as they can to get every penny out of their investment that they possibly can.  <-- that is closer to how business works.

if you are not arguing for an imediate shut down of the DDO servers, then how bout an idea for what YOU think would be better for them to do, I'm mostly just curious.  (belive it or not, I have enjoyed reading your well thought out arguments, even though I disagree with, or don't see the reasoning behind many of them.)

thanks,

zWolf -out.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

  It simply defies reason to believe they are going through all of this because it is somehow going to resurrect a dead 3+ year old game, clearly they are doing it to get the RMT model down for their other stuff in a way that uses the players to subsidize development.

IThink that I'm getting the point of your arguments, not necessarily to 'tear down' DDO or anything, but rather to say 'hey look guys, a major motivation for this move, is to test RMT's in the RPG/MMO world.'

Well sir, on that we can agree - I think so as well, as a matter of fact during the first read through of the announcement, I Was contemplating how they would bring this to LOTRO. (and as for those who will cry 'no! they said they wouldn't do that!", well, I've been around too long to buy into what the current crop of community liaisons 'say' will or 'won't' happen... in the end, it's all about the Benjamin’s.)

I was thinking the other day, how is Turbine going to keep making $$'s off all the folks that have these life time subscriptions? Then shortly after, I read their announcement about DDO and the light bulb went off! Aha! Now THERE is something that could work! And micro T's to the mix and presto! New money for Development!

That said, (anyone else reading this and disagreeing with it,) don't waste too much breath arguing that will never happen, I'm pretty un-effected either way... just as long as the servers stay up heh.

Anyway, Agent Smith has put forth plenty of reasoning behind the fact that this RMT testing in DDO could be for a number of projects! Well, in this 'new world' of gaming (not so new now is it.. but it still seems like not long ago that I was logging in to UO for the beta test heh,) in this 'new world' I figure there will be plenty of 'experiments'. I look forward to the evolution of the art!

May we all have our 'happy moments' of gaming.

zWolf -out.

Originally posted by zWolf

other than the product wallowing for years, (and I bet that's not even a deterant,) this approach is EXACTLY how car salesmen sell cars. 

If you disagree, just head to your local car dealership, and see how many of them talk to you about small micro payments, instead of the over all price of the vehicle.  Why not try it on other products, especialy somthning as new as MMO's.

I don't see the correlation, but just let's say for a minute it exists - tell me how trusted or liked or honest care salesman are though to be?  Not very, the tactics are reviled for being dishonest and even exploitative.

Originally posted by zWolf

by your own arguments, DDO was heading into a dark place and doomed to failure, so what? so this is their hail marry pass... and why is that a bad thing? 

they would be crazy as sin if they are in trouble and they continued to do the same thing that had not worked for them in the past. 

I think that from your previous comments, you'd say that they were failing at what they were doing, and now it looks like your argueing vehemently that they are going to fail with this new plan... ok, doomed if they do, doomed if they don't.

Are you thinking then that what they should do is just pull the plug?  is that what your angling for?  Well that's not how bussiness works, they are going to scrape and inovate just as much as they can to get every penny out of their investment that they possibly can.  <-- that is closer to how business works.

if you are not arguing for an imediate shut down of the DDO servers, then how bout an idea for what YOU think would be better for them to do, I'm mostly just curious.  (belive it or not, I have enjoyed reading your well thought out arguments, even though I disagree with, or don't see the reasoning behind many of them.)

As I said, they could get off their butts and actually add the content they deserve, they could lower the sub price, they could actually improve and add to the game in order to improve its flaws and expand its play.  They could go free monthly and sell mods.  They could fix the servers that have lagged so bad for so long that it is hard to imagine they are a pay to play on servers.  They could NOT spend a year talking up content they know is never coming to the game, at least not in the form talked about (these DDO Unlimited changes go way back as MOD 8 started changes that where for this F2P thing).  In short, they could stop leveraging their customers and start servicing them - they could stop hyping the game and the game's future and actually do something to improve or innovate the game so it has a better future. 

If they are unwilling or unable to do those things thenat the very least they should thanks those that kept a near DOA game going for 3 years and tell them that it is nto worth the time or trouble to make it better or to do the things above so they are gonna use the game to test/develop RMT for their other projects hoping that it can make the game more viable and popular but at least make the game useful to remain open a bit longer and see what happens.  In other words, they could show their fans the respect they have certainly earned by being honest with them, and even showing them appreciation for paying their salaries over the years while they where working not on delivering the content promised but on developing other projects.

Originally posted by zWolf 

 

IThink that I'm getting the point of your arguments, not necessarily to 'tear down' DDO or anything, but rather to say 'hey look guys, a major motivation for this move, is to test RMT's in the RPG/MMO world.' 

I would word it that they are exploiting current customer to pay for their testing but essentially that is the gist of it.  I just think it is worth pointing out when these companies are being less than honest, especially when it involves fans who through thick and thin kept DDO going, they deserve better from Turbine than a year of false promises about MOD 9 and being used to pay to test their new project stuff.

I mean even if you put aside assumptions the reality is that turbine is currently charging people to play the beta of what will be a F2P game - it doesn't even make sense.  If Turbine was honestly tying to reinvent DDO then they would have gone to F2P immediately and invited current (and possibly recent former subscribers in if they needed more) and left it totally free until out of beta.  Who charges $15/month for a BETA, worse still who charges $15/month for a BETA of a F2P game? 

Originally posted by zWolf

Originally posted by AgtSmith

  It simply defies reason to believe they are going through all of this because it is somehow going to resurrect a dead 3+ year old game, clearly they are doing it to get the RMT model down for their other stuff in a way that uses the players to subsidize development.

 

IThink that I'm getting the point of your arguments, not necessarily to 'tear down' DDO or anything, but rather to say 'hey look guys, a major motivation for this move, is to test RMT's in the RPG/MMO world.'

Well sir, on that we can agree - I think so as well, as a matter of fact during the first read through of the announcement, I Was contemplating how they would bring this to LOTRO. (and as for those who will cry 'no! they said they wouldn't do that!", well, I've been around too long to buy into what the current crop of community liaisons 'say' will or 'won't' happen... in the end, it's all about the Benjamin’s.)

I was thinking the other day, how is Turbine going to keep making $$'s off all the folks that have these life time subscriptions? Then shortly after, I read their announcement about DDO and the light bulb went off! Aha! Now THERE is something that could work! And micro T's to the mix and presto! New money for Development!

That said, (anyone else reading this and disagreeing with it,) don't waste too much breath arguing that will never happen, I'm pretty un-effected either way... just as long as the servers stay up heh.

Anyway, Agent Smith has put forth plenty of reasoning behind the fact that this RMT testing in DDO could be for a number of projects! Well, in this 'new world' of gaming (not so new now is it.. but it still seems like not long ago that I was logging in to UO for the beta test heh,) in this 'new world' I figure there will be plenty of 'experiments'. I look forward to the evolution of the art!

May we all have our 'happy moments' of gaming.

zWolf -out.

 

I'm not going to say it won't happen to LOTRO but I am pretty sure Turbine would completely screw themselves if they went to RMT in LOTRO as they are in DDO. Just for the simple fact that anyone who paid lifetime would say "Screw Turbine, I'll never trust or buy from them ever again." They would post anywhere and everywhere to stay away from this company.

The MMO community will know if Turbine completely f-ed up or if it was a smart move with in 6 months after this goes live.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

I won't be surprised when they change it, but its the truth. Right now you can play the game enough to buy all the content with free points. Now you can shoot the messenger or not. Up to you.

You may need to play 50 characters just to earn enough points, but its possible and that's how it works right now. Shouting at the mountain and lecturing me on business doesn't change anything. All it does is show just how stubborn you are.

So you are saying that you can not only make "50" characters now (old limit was what, 6 to 8) but that you can pool the earned points from all toons and spend on one toon?  I just don't believe that, sorry.  And I know I read in the initial comments that character slots where being reduced and extra slots would cost money - so there goes that theory.

 

You can always delete characters and make them again. Turbine Points are tied to your account.

I'd be willing to bet that most of my 4th grade students would have been able to figure that one out for themselves.

Turbine clarified that content unlocked is account wide, but earned Turbine points are not in an account wide pool of use. Someone had said they could easily run a character to 100 Favor in an hour and then delete and Turbine said the points that are earned by a character in game are for that character to spend only. The content they unlock would be account wide though.
 

 

Instead of tossing snide little insults, research better.

Rok, you're welcome to show me where they said that. What I am telling you is how it works on the beta servers right now. If you want to back up what you're saying that is great and you won't get any snide comments. Lecturing me on business and how much you don't trust Turbine is not productive at all. I want to know how their system works just as much as anybody. I have had the opportunity to play the game on a friend's system. I can tell you what I saw without being bound by a NDA. You're welcome to fire up a beta account and prove or disprove the things I say all you want. I'll welcome a second look.

Do you really think AgtSmith thought of rerolls when he made that comment? Obviously not given his reply. Snide remarks were earned. If he is going to tell me I am wrong, I do expect at least a little common sense.

Originally posted by zWolf

Anyway, Agent Smith has put forth plenty of reasoning behind the fact that this RMT testing in DDO could be for a number of projects! Well, in this 'new world' of gaming (not so new now is it.. but it still seems like not long ago that I was logging in to UO for the beta test heh,) in this 'new world' I figure there will be plenty of 'experiments'. I look forward to the evolution of the art!

That may have some significance if they hadn't been saying that already in multiple interviews about the game.

And he says DDO was a "perfect fit" for Turbine to start working with alternative business models, and it made much more sense to the company to try a new business model with an existing, successful title than to import and adapt an Asian game or build an entirely new one.

And for future titles...

And Turbine hopes to be able to use the lessons from DDO’s transition for other projects. "LOTRO is not designed for this," he says. "And we’re not talking about our console projects, but clearly, getting a better sense of how microtransactions work in a persistent online world is going to help our console project down the line."

Originally posted by Aganazer 

Do you really think AgtSmith thought of rerolls when he made that comment? Obviously not given his reply. Snide remarks were earned. If he is going to tell me I am wrong, I do expect at least a little common sense.

I stand by what I said to the letter, if you think that a F2P game can survive if you can just play the game normally and earn through play all they are trying to sell then you deserve the criticism I steered your way.  Whether or not some cockamamie way exists to make a toon and do some stuff, delete him and do again, delete and do again it really irrelevant because financially the game cannot work if that is possible so it is not going to go live with such a thing possible (not to mention the shear silliness of suggesting that that is a path to business success or even popularity as how many people would do that).  All of which goes to my broader point that this is about testing and developing a viable RMT model for other games/projects and not about 'improving' DDO.

Originally posted by seabass2003 

I'm not going to say it won't happen to LOTRO but I am pretty sure Turbine would completely screw themselves if they went to RMT in LOTRO as they are in DDO. Just for the simple fact that anyone who paid lifetime would say "Screw Turbine, I'll never trust or buy from them ever again." They would post anywhere and everywhere to stay away from this company.

The MMO community will know if Turbine completely f-ed up or if it was a smart move with in 6 months after this goes live.

They are going to have to do something in LotRO.  While certainly not suffering for subs like DDo was the issue with LotRO now is all those lifetimes they sold are now free players so LotRO is going to be drawing significantly less revenue now than another games with comparable subscription numbers because lifetime sub folks do not pay anything each month.  Add in the financial and economic crisis and this really has to make LotRO practically much harder on Turbine than it otherwise would or should be for its level of success.  RMT could get that revenue stream back up to a more normal level, but to do it they need a testbed to work out the limits and various systems.

Originally posted by Aganazer 

 

That may have some significance if they hadn't been saying that already in multiple interviews about the game.

The significance is not in realizing or saying that DDO is a testbed for future/other games, it is in the implication of a developer charging for what amounts to testing of their development (and not being honest about it).  It is also significant just from the standpoint of honesty, so much of games are begin ruined by spin and BS from developers that I think we as gamers have to fight adn argue when they pull this kind of stuff and demand they at least use honest language and quit the triple talk and spin.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

I won't be surprised when they change it, but its the truth. Right now you can play the game enough to buy all the content with free points. Now you can shoot the messenger or not. Up to you.

You may need to play 50 characters just to earn enough points, but its possible and that's how it works right now. Shouting at the mountain and lecturing me on business doesn't change anything. All it does is show just how stubborn you are.

So you are saying that you can not only make "50" characters now (old limit was what, 6 to 8) but that you can pool the earned points from all toons and spend on one toon?  I just don't believe that, sorry.  And I know I read in the initial comments that character slots where being reduced and extra slots would cost money - so there goes that theory.

 

You can always delete characters and make them again. Turbine Points are tied to your account.

I'd be willing to bet that most of my 4th grade students would have been able to figure that one out for themselves.

Turbine clarified that content unlocked is account wide, but earned Turbine points are not in an account wide pool of use. Someone had said they could easily run a character to 100 Favor in an hour and then delete and Turbine said the points that are earned by a character in game are for that character to spend only. The content they unlock would be account wide though.
 

 

Instead of tossing snide little insults, research better.

 

Rok, you're welcome to show me where they said that. What I am telling you is how it works on the beta servers right now. If you want to back up what you're saying that is great and you won't get any snide comments. Lecturing me on business and how much you don't trust Turbine is not productive at all. I want to know how their system works just as much as anybody. I have had the opportunity to play the game on a friend's system. I can tell you what I saw without being bound by a NDA. You're welcome to fire up a beta account and prove or disprove the things I say all you want. I'll welcome a second look.

Do you really think AgtSmith thought of rerolls when he made that comment? Obviously not given his reply. Snide remarks were earned. If he is going to tell me I am wrong, I do expect at least a little common sense.

DDO forums under the DDO unlimited or check the dev tracker. Tolero stated that earned for favor and gameplay Turbine points will not be accound wide. This was in response to the idea of running to 100 favor over and over until you could unlock all the content. It was said that bought Turbine points are account wide and earned one are not.
 

I will not beta this or any game.

That makes perfect sense - it is just like favor works.  It would be logical that in the end, if not allready, it works pretty much like favor does.  Per character, per first run of a quest difficulty, and not transferable - anything else would be easily exploited and farmed.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

DDO forums under the DDO unlimited or check the dev tracker. Tolero stated that earned for favor and gameplay Turbine points will not be accound wide. This was in response to the idea of running to 100 favor over and over until you could unlock all the content. It was said that bought Turbine points are account wide and earned one are not.

Do you mind linking that info? I found this post  from Tolero saying very specifically that Turbine Points are account wide.

To quote Tolero:

You'll still be able to earn the points on anything you haven't run yet (i.e. the things that are coming in 9, 10, and so on)

Also, even if you fill up all your characters favor on one server, remember that points you earn apply to your account, which can be handy if you were full up on one server, dont want to open more slots, and have room on alternate servers

The points can be from other servers! You don't even have to delete characters that much because the points can come from characters spread out across all the servers.

Tolero even clarifies it in this post where he points out that favor points are per character, but turbine points are per account.

Its also been confirmed from multiple sources that you will be able to level from 1-20 completely for free. It has been confirmed that content unlocks (adventure packs) are account wide. So even if points were per character, the content bought from that character would apply to your account. Its also been confirmed that there are tradable guest passes allowing free players to try the paid adventure packs for a limited time.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

DDO forums under the DDO unlimited or check the dev tracker. Tolero stated that earned for favor and gameplay Turbine points will not be accound wide. This was in response to the idea of running to 100 favor over and over until you could unlock all the content. It was said that bought Turbine points are account wide and earned one are not.

 

Do you mind linking that info? I found this post  from Tolero saying very specifically that Turbine Points are account wide.

To quote Tolero:

You'll still be able to earn the points on anything you haven't run yet (i.e. the things that are coming in 9, 10, and so on)

Also, even if you fill up all your characters favor on one server, remember that points you earn apply to your account, which can be handy if you were full up on one server, dont want to open more slots, and have room on alternate servers

The points can be from other servers! You don't even have to delete characters that much because the points can come from characters spread out across all the servers.

Tolero even clarifies it in this post where he points out that favor points are per character, but turbine points are per account.

Its also been confirmed from multiple sources that you will be able to level from 1-20 completely for free. It has been confirmed that content unlocks (adventure packs) are account wide. So even if points were per character, the content bought from that character would apply to your account. Its also been confirmed that there are tradable guest passes allowing free players to try the paid adventure packs for a limited time.

Per Tolero the day before your quote so they are contradicting themselves one day apart:
 

"There isn't a retroactive Turbine Points grant on favor you already earned before DDO Unlimited, but if say you're like at 1750, you'd start earning the points on the rest of the favor as you climb past 1750.

I should also clarify that I don't think the article worded it correctly. You don't earn the points for doing the quests AND the favor, they probably got confused about favor points vs turbine points You get the Turbine Points for earning favor, and you earn favor by running the quests.

Even though you don't get the retroactive points, you will get your VIP month points right off the bat once DDO Unlimited starts

Post Script: Oh and the favor points are per character, but your VIP monthly stipend is per account. "
 

Ok Rok speaking again, the last line is the important part. Aganazer you misquoted Tolero. She says favor points are per character AKA the Turbine points you get for favor, then she clearly says the monthly VIP stipend is account wide. Big difference.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

DDO forums under the DDO unlimited or check the dev tracker. Tolero stated that earned for favor and gameplay Turbine points will not be accound wide. This was in response to the idea of running to 100 favor over and over until you could unlock all the content. It was said that bought Turbine points are account wide and earned one are not.

 

Do you mind linking that info? I found this post  from Tolero saying very specifically that Turbine Points are account wide.

To quote Tolero:

You'll still be able to earn the points on anything you haven't run yet (i.e. the things that are coming in 9, 10, and so on)

Also, even if you fill up all your characters favor on one server, remember that points you earn apply to your account, which can be handy if you were full up on one server, dont want to open more slots, and have room on alternate servers

The points can be from other servers! You don't even have to delete characters that much because the points can come from characters spread out across all the servers.

Tolero even clarifies it in this post where he points out that favor points are per character, but turbine points are per account.

Its also been confirmed from multiple sources that you will be able to level from 1-20 completely for free. It has been confirmed that content unlocks (adventure packs) are account wide. So even if points were per character, the content bought from that character would apply to your account. Its also been confirmed that there are tradable guest passes allowing free players to try the paid adventure packs for a limited time.

Per Tolero the day before your quote so they are contradicting themselves one day apart:
 

 

"There isn't a retroactive Turbine Points grant on favor you already earned before DDO Unlimited, but if say you're like at 1750, you'd start earning the points on the rest of the favor as you climb past 1750.

I should also clarify that I don't think the article worded it correctly. You don't earn the points for doing the quests AND the favor, they probably got confused about favor points vs turbine points You get the Turbine Points for earning favor, and you earn favor by running the quests.

Even though you don't get the retroactive points, you will get your VIP month points right off the bat once DDO Unlimited starts

Post Script: Oh and the favor points are per character, but your VIP monthly stipend is per account. "
 

Ok Rok speaking again, the last line is the important part. Aganazer you misquoted Tolero. She says favor points are per character AKA the Turbine points you get for favor, then she clearly says the monthly VIP stipend is account wide. Big difference.

I do think that some clarification is needed, but I read that and found no contradiction. From the context it appears she is using "Favor" and "Favor Points" synonymously. Think about it. Have you ever heard a dev mention purchasing anything with "Favor Points"? No, they always refer to "Turbine Points". She clearly states that you get "Turbine Points" for earning favor. She doesn't say that you get Favor Points by earning favor. There never was a contradiction, just some poor writing.

I think I know where you got the idea that she meant something else. Its from that last post in the thread about abusing the system that linked both posts pointing out the contradiction. Whoever created that post with the two links read it wrong. Then you followed their links preloaded with the idea that that she was contradicting herself.

Are you at least willing to admit that there is a possibility that you're wrong about favor earned Turbine Points being bound to your character? The only misquoting I did was assuming Tolero is a 'he' and not a 'she'.

To quote Tolero:

You'll still be able to earn the points on anything you haven't run yet (i.e. the things that are coming in 9, 10, and so on)

Also, even if you fill up all your characters favor on one server, remember that points you earn apply to your account, which can be handy if you were full up on one server, dont want to open more slots, and have room on alternate serversr

I think the more notable thing here is that you only get the points for the first run through.  So with limited content the whole paying your way through with points is really a moot point as from what he says there you get the points on first run only and for those already in game you only get the points on new stuff so vets will have very few things that will give them these points.

But details aside, I think it is pretty safe to say that the system has to be such that you cannot earn your way through and get all, or even close to all, you could if you paid - otherwise it would be a recipe for failure not matter how you slice it.

Originally posted by Aganazer 

Its also been confirmed from multiple sources that you will be able to level from 1-20 completely for free. It has been confirmed that content unlocks (adventure packs) are account wide.

This I just don't believe not matter waht anyone at Turbine says.  First of all, if they scale XP for 17-20 the way it is scaled 1-16 then there is very possibly not enough content in game to get to 20 with VIP access.  Consider that the long delay here has many people who have run much of the content so many times that they now get 0 XP per run so the only thing that would give them more XP in game is wahtever new content they add with the DDO Unlimited launch of from the MOD 9 BS it is hard to see it being enough unless they just hand out XP like mad.  We shall see, but I seriously do not believe you are going 1-20 for free unless they are completely redoing XP and quest rewards, like capping the XP penalty for repition to 50% or higher so that you can get something from doing the same stuff over and over.

Originally posted by AgtSmith

To quote Tolero:

You'll still be able to earn the points on anything you haven't run yet (i.e. the things that are coming in 9, 10, and so on)

Also, even if you fill up all your characters favor on one server, remember that points you earn apply to your account, which can be handy if you were full up on one server, dont want to open more slots, and have room on alternate serversr

I think the more notable thing here is that you only get the points for the first run through.  So with limited content the whole paying your way through with points is really a moot point as from what he says there you get the points on first run only and for those already in game you only get the points on new stuff so vets will have very few things that will give them these points.

AgtSmith, your reading comprehension is worse than every one of my 4th grade students. You get favor for the first run through on each character. The key being each character. You can then get Turbine Points by earning favor. Tolero even suggests creating multiple alts to gain additional Turbine Points. They even tell you how to work around the 2 free characters per server limit!

But details aside, I think it is pretty safe to say that the system has to be such that you cannot earn your way through and get all, or even close to all, you could if you paid - otherwise it would be a recipe for failure not matter how you slice it.

Haven't you read any of the 4 and more sources I have cited that tell you that you can buy all the game's content with free points? How much evidence do you need? What would it take? Quit being stubborn and open your eyes man!

Originally posted by Aganazer 

Its also been confirmed from multiple sources that you will be able to level from 1-20 completely for free. It has been confirmed that content unlocks (adventure packs) are account wide.

This I just don't believe not matter waht anyone at Turbine says.  First of all, if they scale XP for 17-20 the way it is scaled 1-16 then there is very possibly not enough content in game to get to 20 with VIP access.  Consider that the long delay here has many people who have run much of the content so many times that they now get 0 XP per run so the only thing that would give them more XP in game is wahtever new content they add with the DDO Unlimited launch of from the MOD 9 BS it is hard to see it being enough unless they just hand out XP like mad.  We shall see, but I seriously do not believe you are going 1-20 for free unless they are completely redoing XP and quest rewards, like capping the XP penalty for repition to 50% or higher so that you can get something from doing the same stuff over and over.

 

You will be able to level from 1-20 without spending a dime. They have said this in multiple interviews. They have said this on the beta forums. Its one of the fundamental features of the free to play option.

I can see that it would take an act of god to convince you of these things. I've said it before and I'll say it again. AgtSmith, you post nothing but half truths and misinformation with the intention of causing drama or defaming whatever it is you are talking about. Under some circumstances this is called libel and is illegal. Around here its just called trolling.

Aganazer:  You are mistaken on one point - after 3 repeats the amount of xp drops [IIRC by 10% per run] each run.

However, you are correct in that the xp never drops to 0.  One person in beta said he was still only -90% as a level 16 in a level 1 dungeon!  It might take near forever to get enough xp to get to 20 as a F2P, but technically, it could be done.

Although I'm not new to MMORPG's, I am new to DDO and Dungeons and Dragons on the whole. I've played LOTRO and enjoyed it. Its a lovely looking game too, so for me, the draw to try DDO out is that at some point in the future there will be a decent quality free MMO.

I can't afford subs to lots of games which means that DDO can be the occasional game that I too crave. It may even be my number one game if I enjoy it!

I'm falling into the 'tired and jaded' category more and more these days. A good F2P game is good news.

My trial character is a Monk though... I'll need to look at that lol

Originally posted by uncus

Aganazer:  You are mistaken on one point - after 3 repeats the amount of xp drops [IIRC by 10% per run] each run.

However, you are correct in that the xp never drops to 0.  One person in beta said he was still only -90% as a level 16 in a level 1 dungeon!  It might take near forever to get enough xp to get to 20 as a F2P, but technically, it could be done.

Ahh.. thanks for clearing that up. I know you get bonus XP for running it for the first time on each difficulty, but I never saw any reduction for multiple runs. I never repeated a quest more than 3 times and my friend got to level cap before repeating anything enough times to notice.  I do know that the rerun counter doesn't increase after you reach the level cap, so the level 16 players won't be seeing any penalties for rerun's after reaching the cap. When they raise the level cap,  they will be able to rerun their old quests that they ran 1000's of times at max level and still get full XP.

I thought that -90% comment was about being over-leveled for a dungeon rather than having run it so many times? Call it a hunch but I don't think that is what they mean when they say you can level 1-20 for free.

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

AgtSmith, your reading comprehension is worse than every one of my 4th grade students. You get favor for the first run through on each character. The key being each character. You can then get Turbine Points by earning favor. Tolero even suggests creating multiple alts to gain additional Turbine Points. They even tell you how to work around the 2 free characters per server limit!

I am sorry that you are having trouble making your case but attacking and namecalling doesn't really help bolster a weak argument.  I read what you said and a lot of what turbine has said, aside from there being contradictions and a lack of clarity I just don't believe all I read from them nor do I agree with the conclusions and analysis you draw.

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

Haven't you read any of the 4 and more sources I have cited that tell you that you can buy all the game's content with free points? How much evidence do you need? What would it take? Quit being stubborn and open your eyes man!

 

Since all 'sources' rely on Turbine I simply do not believe them, Turbine said for how long that MOD 9 was eminent or at least on its way, and they boldface lied when saying their RMT hires where not for existing games.  InN short, Turbine is a bunch of dishonest liars.  It is their MO to things about F2P DDO now that sound good to garner hype and interest only to change them later to suit their purposes.

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

You will be able to level from 1-20 without spending a dime. They have said this in multiple interviews. They have said this on the beta forums. Its one of the fundamental features of the free to play option.

Again, says the Turbine who is know to boldface lie in order to create hype and avoid hard truths.

Originally posted by Aganazer

 

I can see that it would take an act of god to convince you of these things. I've said it before and I'll say it again. AgtSmith, you post nothing but half truths and misinformation with the intention of causing drama or defaming whatever it is you are talking about. Under some circumstances this is called libel and is illegal. Around here its just called trolling.

Not an act of God, more an act of ignorance because you have to be ignorant of how Turbine operates to believe much of what they say especially when marketting or hype is invovled as is the case leading up to DDO Unlimited.

And for the record, accusing me of a crime falsely is in and of tiself defamation so I would apoligze unless you can prove your accusation (which you cannot because your accusation was false).