Originally posted by wolfmann

It just doesnt fit with the "Whack-a-mole" everyone's a combat-wombat idea.

Well not much to add to this beside people also don't want to give up their shinies.  Heaven forbid someone has to replace something because it wears out or breaks.

You can't discount the feeling of picking up that cool weapon you didn't expect.  Its just not exciting giving money to someone and them handing over the weapon or buying it from an AH.  But after killing that dragon or random critter and a sword of uberness drops, THAT's exciting... in MMO terms at least=)

There should be both options.  I like being able to buy something, but I also like being able to find it.  I think thats a pretty common opinion. 

Originally posted by zaxxon23

I'm sure many here are sick to death of hearing about rmt, but imo rmt is why complex crafter and/or player economies are gone.  You can't have any such thing as bind on pickup when crafting is the focus of the game gear, and thus everything is tradable and saleable for real money.  Of course, your indie devs tend to care less about rmt, but a good crafting game with enough other stuff to go with it needs to be developed by a big time developer for good market penetration.  Thus, we're stuck with what the big time developers feel is right, and in general the big time devs are agains rmt.

 

That being said, I'm sure rmt is but a smaller portion of why good crafting is no longer used.  Certainly, there's balance issues, database issues, and complexity that can be a turnoff to the larger market.  I'm sure some other folks will come up with other reasons why crafting is ignored nowadays.  I'll leave it up to them to continue....

^ This ^

There's no point in selling items in item shops when players can make it themselves.

There's no point in buying items with real cash when you can buy the items with in-game gold from other players.

And since the publishers want to take the role of crafters selling their pixilated wares for a credit card number, the publishers aren't going to let any customer play that role in any game they publish.

RMT killed player crafting.  It was killed via an extensive PR campaign by powergaming guilds and publishers pushing RMT.  The arguments against crafting were like this:

1)  Greedy crafters were exploiting adventurers.  This was something put forth by the powergaming guilds.  What little realize is that it was usually the powergamers who came out better in the crafting game.  Still, crafting put the common adventurer on an almost equal footing with the powerclan member.  That's why these folks lobbied for a game that excluded the common adventurer: the loot'n'raid game.  The publishers jumped on this too, not only because they themselves were powergamers, but it helped them argue for RMT.

2)  Nobody wants to craft.  Perhaps the proportion of those who are obsessed with crafting is lower than those who like adventuring more than crafting.  Nevertheless, practically everyone who has a crafting ability uses it at some point.  Furthermore, while not everybody crafts, everybody seems to enjoy the benefits of crafting in a game: cheap, available goods.  See EVE as an example.  Everyone, that is, except those in #1.

3)  Crafting leads to imbalance.  And looting doesn't?  Sheesh...that is, of course, unless you can get good lootables via RMT.  The thing crafting does is makes any imbalance something that is available to all...which then sort of mitigates the imbalance.  RMT, on the other hand, thrives on creating imbalances between players of varying willingness to splurge.

4)  Crafting is too complicated to implement correctly.  We had crafting in the dark ages of MMO development that worked rather well.  We've had people churn out good crafting systems on a shoestring budget.  We've come too far these days to use this lame old excuse.  The only limitation is the artwork resources...which of course the MMO publishers want to sell you via RMT.

So truly, the only excuse for not creating a crafting system and in-game economy boils down to one thing: RMT.  Those who RMT on the black market (powergamers), and legitimately (the publishers), have no interest in a good crafting system.  They have every interest in making players go to them to get the things that make the game worthwhile...for a price.

Originally posted by Venger

Originally posted by wolfmann

It just doesnt fit with the "Whack-a-mole" everyone's a combat-wombat idea.

 

Well not much to add to this beside people also don't want to give up their shinies.  Heaven forbid someone has to replace something because it wears out or breaks.

That would be a huge drag if the item is a rare drop from a raid dungeon that you only get to play every week.

Or you can make the items common place and it losts all its lusters.  People don't like to lose their big items. Developers need to pay attention to that.

... Play Vanguard. If you aren't content with the complexity of crafting in it I don't know what else you want.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Venger

Originally posted by wolfmann

It just doesnt fit with the "Whack-a-mole" everyone's a combat-wombat idea.

 

Well not much to add to this beside people also don't want to give up their shinies.  Heaven forbid someone has to replace something because it wears out or breaks.

 

That would be a huge drag if the item is a rare drop from a raid dungeon that you only get to play every week.

Or you can make the items common place and it losts all its lusters.  People don't like to lose their big items. Developers need to pay attention to that.

Then it seems to me that the solution is to have players make the big items...which of course implies that we ensure that the items remain "big" and "rare."

There are ways games can do this.  You can up the resources needed to some ungodly amount, make the manufacturing process take a herculanian amount of time, or put more steps in the process (have to go to a special forge, perhaps several special forges across several continents); or a combination of all of these.

Players already do a similar amount of grinding or laboring to loot their gear...why not translate this labor and grinding into something where people can make the gear?

Originally posted by eagle4x4

Why is it that there has not been a game since pre-CU SWG that gives the player the ability to craft unique and custom items?

For those of you that don't know what I mean, here is an example;

In SWG, all the resources had variable stats such as Conductivity, Potential Energy and overall quality and each category could range from 1-1000. Resource quality and locations would change regularly so you had to explore and sample to find the best resources, sometimes it meant traveling to multiple planets and searching barren areas.

So, for those who wanted to be known as the absolute best crafters, they had to really work for it, but for those that did they could demand top dollar for their goods.

That handles the quality aspect, so what about the CUSTOM aspect?

In SWG, say as an Armorsmith, your armor was layered. Each layer was crafted and then the layers were assembled along with the other components to make the final piece of armor. Here is the cool part, there were several types of layers, heat resist, stun resist, etc. So, you might have a customer special order some armor with kinetic and stun resist. Now, say you took that 998 overall quality/ 991 decay resist resource that you saved for special orders and made primo layers you could make some truly spectacular custom armor.

Oh, I almost forgot, the customer wanted black chest and leg pieces but purple biceps, forearms, gloves, and helm to finish it off.

See, crafters that would do all that made a name for themselves, they didn't just make 10 of the same chest piece that all the other armorsmiths' on the server could make. You all know what I mean, in every game since SWG I have mastered a crafting profession and it always becomes a game of undercutting the two other guys on the auction hall with the same damn swords that I made.

So, again my question is, "why are devs afraid to put this kind of complex crafting into new MMOs?"
 

Is it too hard to code?
 

Is it a control thing?, meaning that they wouldn't be taking enough currency out of the economy?
 

What?

I think its bc they want to attract  the average MMO player that plays play 2-4 hours per day max. ie. working ppl, students , ect who dont have that much time at hand to dive a into complex crafting system and just want a chill gameplay ... but well im only guessing here

Complex crafting fits into thinking, and thats a big no no in todays market.

Devs are opposed to outside the box thinking.

Why are devs opposed to complex crafting?

Because complex crafting actually requires work, and most companies that produce MMOs don't wish to spend the money/time on the necessary development.

I have yet to find a crafting system that can even come close to comparing with SWG.  In fact, for a long time, crafting was the only reason I would log in to SWG - I loved the complexity of it.  If there was a game out there that had a crafting system even half as complex as the crafting system in SWG, my inner number-cruncher would be deliriously happy.

Originally posted by eagle4x4

Why is it that there has not been a game since pre-CU SWG that gives the player the ability to craft unique and custom items?

For those of you that don't know what I mean, here is an example;

In SWG, all the resources had variable stats such as Conductivity, Potential Energy and overall quality and each category could range from 1-1000. Resource quality and locations would change regularly so you had to explore and sample to find the best resources, sometimes it meant traveling to multiple planets and searching barren areas.

So, for those who wanted to be known as the absolute best crafters, they had to really work for it, but for those that did they could demand top dollar for their goods.

That handles the quality aspect, so what about the CUSTOM aspect?

In SWG, say as an Armorsmith, your armor was layered. Each layer was crafted and then the layers were assembled along with the other components to make the final piece of armor. Here is the cool part, there were several types of layers, heat resist, stun resist, etc. So, you might have a customer special order some armor with kinetic and stun resist. Now, say you took that 998 overall quality/ 991 decay resist resource that you saved for special orders and made primo layers you could make some truly spectacular custom armor.

Oh, I almost forgot, the customer wanted black chest and leg pieces but purple biceps, forearms, gloves, and helm to finish it off.

See, crafters that would do all that made a name for themselves, they didn't just make 10 of the same chest piece that all the other armorsmiths' on the server could make. You all know what I mean, in every game since SWG I have mastered a crafting profession and it always becomes a game of undercutting the two other guys on the auction hall with the same damn swords that I made.

So, again my question is, "why are devs afraid to put this kind of complex crafting into new MMOs?"
 

Is it too hard to code?
 

Is it a control thing?, meaning that they wouldn't be taking enough currency out of the economy?
 

What?

Ryzom is very much like swg as far as crafting goes, also very sandboxy as far as everything else.

Most devs are just lazy, crafting is considered a second priority.

Mortal online is trying to make crafting good however, we need one game that sells ok to force the other devs to include better crafting in their game.

I would really want to have a system similar to character selection where you can make the look and properties of the item.

Everyone likes quests, everyone likes level advancement or skill advancement, everyone likes great graphics and everyone likes their character to look good.

Only some people like crafting, role playing, stories, RvR and complex quests.

So new games have a streamlined build, initial development costs are less, the games appeal to the masses, that’s all it takes to make a profit. This is like the emperor deciding we need more bread and circuses rather than theatre and art. MMO companies are giving dumbing down a big thumbs up.

Q: "Why are developers opposed to complex crafting?"

A: "For the same reason the morbidly obese are opposed to exercise!"

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

I'd just like to see some genuine player shops. Where individual players are the only people who would know how to make a certain item and they would have to compete for business with people who make similar items. I don't know how but like, if a character was able to actually create a unique item themself, that only they would know how to make. Just an idea...

That was how Asheron's Call 2 was.

No NPC's anywhere to sell you weapons, armor and other goods.

The players were supposed to craft everything.

Asheron's Call 2 closed it's servers some years ago.

Does this answer your question?

Frankly, for me the reason why crafting is never good is simply because devs are incompetents. There i said it.

It's not that hard to make a good crafting system that blends well with a loot system: Just don't oppose each other. So for example, make all the jewelry lootable while all the armor/weapons is crafted. Then you start having the gear farmers needing the crafters and the other way around.

So let's help our "head up the ass" devs get a clue here. READ ABOVE! It's not that hard... You know you can do it. Yeah, even "you".

Originally posted by Seen_Justice

Frankly, for me the reason why crafting is never good is simply because devs are incompetents. There i said it.

It's not that hard to make a good crafting system that blends well with a loot system: Just don't oppose each other. So for example, make all the jewelry lootable while all the armor/weapons is crafted. Then you start having the gear farmers needing the crafters and the other way around.

So let's help our "head up the ass" devs get a clue here. READ ABOVE! It's not that hard... You know you can do it. Yeah, even "you".

But Seen you can have good loot jewelry/armor/weapons and good crafted jewelry/armor/weapons, etc. Mix the stats/looks up with a decay system and both loot and craft can and will be options for all and drive those to loot and craft for a thriving economy and adventure. SRSly preCU SWG had excellent loot and excellent craft and the sys was this way.

EDIT-Well as I remember with weapons it was, preCU I can't remember if bada$$ armor was looted but clothes were or jewelry crafted but I think looted..but weapons...you could loot some awesome weapons and some awesome weapons could be crafted...why not for all?

Originally posted by eagle4x4

Thanks for the replies,

I wonder if anyone has heard any rumors about games in developement to will have custom item crafting?

I haven't heard of any but hopefully someone has.

 

Well to answer the OP..  Its because :-

A - Devs are lazy sometimes or rush
B - Devs think were all thick as pig shit and wouldnt get it
C - Devs are catering for the insta gratification, teenage ADHD crowd (related to B)

It's totally pathetic and I hate it...  Im 39 years old and hold a technical job...  I want depth and complexity in my MMO, especially around the crafing area..  It should take real life work and thought to learn the ropes and get good in your chosen field..

I think devs that create the " get ingredients and press craft " ways of crafting and have the cheek to call it a crafting system, let alone " a unigue and comlpex" crafting system should be fired or shot.. Or both in any order...

Now to answer your quoted question..  Two games are coming along that you should have a carefull look at.

1. Mortal Online - features " procedural" crafting much like SWG...  Take weapons as an example..  In Mortal because everything is made from component parts there are 140,000,000  (140 Mill) combinations..  And thats JUST for weapons..  Theres Armour and all the other stuff thats craftable on top of that....

2.Earthrise - Futuristic MMO with a similar take on complex crafting and harvesting...

I recommend you go have a look at both if your as into crafting and gathering as I am...

Originally posted by Senadina

While I don't think the crafting is "custom", Fallen Earth will have 95% of items be craftable. So crafted goods will be, theoretically, better than drops, and contribute to the in-game economy.

My guess for why devs don't follow pre-cu swg, is it is too hard to balance classes that way. Everyone always gripes about class imbalance as it is. Imagine if everyone had custom made items that made them uber? Let the crying commence.

Dont mention Fallen Earth and crafting in the same sentence please..  Its as complex as gathering your ingredients and pressing make..  Anywhere in the world..  You just wait a certain time while it makes itself as you go about your business then DING...  Its in your bags !

Bullshit crafting system...  Ive tried it 1st hand and thats all im gonna say !

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Why are devs  PLAYERS opposed to complex crafting?

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FIFY!